Seeing as changing the Championship is en vogue...

[dec]

Under this system the provincial finals are meaningless as both teams will be seeded for the group stage.

Any group system can result in dead games where one or both teams have nothing to play for.

In this example group (Group H Sligo (Seeded) Carlow Armagh Mayo) I could only see one game (Mayo/Sligo) getting a traditional championship attendance with large number of fans from both teams.

A group system could see teams going out with no losses. If two teams go through from each group then a team with two losses could advance.

[The Forfeit Point]

i agree with AZ, provincial glory is what keeps the likes of us going. it's a realistic target to aim for. through longford into an all-ireland format and there will never be any silverware coming here. wobblers system is the best for keeping all parties and i would really love if it was brought in in teh near future.

[thewobbler]

Well the point about this is Dec that if you're playing in a provincial final, surely to God you're going to give it one hell of a lash. Yeah the All-Ireland seedings are sorted, but provincial glory is there for the taking.

Regarding your other points, unless you want to hand fix the ties across the board, then there are going to be some highly competitive groups, some hugely rivalled groups, and on the flipside there are going to be groups that are just of no interest to the general public.

Even with billions of pounds to spend and an unbelievable lack of concern for doing the thing right vs doing what they want, FIFA and UEFA end up with the same problem every time they run a tournament.

They also get dead rubbers.

That's how sport works.

So that's a nonsense argument.

GAA fans really do spend too long analysing what's wrong with their game rather than analysing what's right with it.

[Dinny Breen]

GAA fans really do spend too long analysing what's wrong with their game rather than analysing what's right with it.

That is known as the TSG factor...

[Zulu]

That's a different argument entirely. What you're saying there is that the provincial championships are grand in theory, but some provinces are harder to win than others.

That's not what I'm saying at all, I'm saying that if you take on eprovince you have to take them all and in two of them there will rarely be a time when at least on of the traditional big teams isn't too strong for the weaker counties, Leinster is moving that way too with Meath, Dublin and Kildare looking likely to be stronger than the rest for the next few years.

I will bet you that the Limerick footballers believe they can win a Munster in 2011, right now. I bet you they don't believe they can win an All Ireland. I bet Tipp believe they can get to a Munster final at least.

Depends on the draw, if they are drawn against Kerry and Cork they won't and even if they do they are unlikely to actually do it.

Down, Monaghan, Antrim, Donegal and Derry would all have a chance of winning Ulster at the moment.

In fairness that is nonsense, Antrim have no chance, Donegal very little and Derry only a bit more. Monaghan and Down probably do but would Down swop their semi final slot for an ulster title? Not on your life!

I don't think it's perfect, but I think the argument that is somehow inconveniences the great counties in their march to All Ireland glory is not a good enough reason for telling 2/3 of the country that you can completely forget about winning anything, ever.

I don't understand your point and I couldn't care less about the 'great' counties, I don't want to see the system changed because of last weekend, I want to see it changed because it is a poor format whatever way you look at it.

Even if you gave the league more 'importance' in terms of All Ireland standings, or raised the profile of the McKenna etc (I'd get rid of them), do you think the people in Louth would have been so upset if they lost a Division 3 final, or an O'Byrne Cup final?

You keep coming back to this but you're missing the point. Currently a Leinster title is more important than a league title because the league isn't taken seriously but if it was then it would be celebrated as much as a provincial title.

What ye are saying would take generations to come to fruition, and they'd be generations where there'd be less and less interest in the majority of counties because they'd know they had no hope of any silverware from day one.

It didn't take generations for Munster and Leinster to develop a fan base why would it take generations for GAA fans to enjoy their team winning competitions that everyone fought tooth and nail for? And I'll make the point again, every team will have a more realistic chance of winning their league than most will of their province.

[dec]

They also get dead rubbers.
That's how sport works.
So that's a nonsense argument.

There are no dead rubbers in the current system, which is what you are proposing to replace, so it is not a nonsense argument.

[Rossfan]

i agree with AZ, provincial glory is what keeps the likes of us going. it's a realistic target to aim for. through longford into an all-ireland format and there will never be any silverware coming here.

I suggest that the present system be amended ...
Before the championship starts rate each County 1 to 33 based on the previous years Championship( maybe add in the NFL but I wouldnt go for that).e.g 50 points for winning AI,40 runners up, 30 losing Semi finalists etc.
Then play your Provincials as now ( better time frames though). The 4 Provincial winners  go through to the Quarter Finals and the runners up to the round before the QFs as at present.
Then the 12 highest rated teams play  each other in Round 1 All Irl Championship ( or Qualifier or whatever you want to call it).
Meanwhile the teams below those 12 play a Div2 /Tier2/B or whatever All Irel championship which will give the Leitrims/Longfords( or us indeed 2005 to 2009 !!) a chance of National Silverware.
The Finalists of the 2/B join the 6 winners of Round 1 in Round 2, the four winners of Round 2 play the Provincial Finalists etc.
The Div2/B or whatever Final is played whenever the 2 teams are knocked out of the main all Ireland race.
The winners of the B/2 would be automatically included in the Senior the next year no matter what ratings may be.

[AZOffaly]

That's a different argument entirely. What you're saying there is that the provincial championships are grand in theory, but some provinces are harder to win than others.

That's not what I'm saying at all, I'm saying that if you take on eprovince you have to take them all and in two of them there will rarely be a time when at least on of the traditional big teams isn't too strong for the weaker counties, Leinster is moving that way too with Meath, Dublin and Kildare looking likely to be stronger than the rest for the next few years.

I will bet you that the Limerick footballers believe they can win a Munster in 2011, right now. I bet you they don't believe they can win an All Ireland. I bet Tipp believe they can get to a Munster final at least.

Depends on the draw, if they are drawn against Kerry and Cork they won't and even if they do they are unlikely to actually do it.

Down, Monaghan, Antrim, Donegal and Derry would all have a chance of winning Ulster at the moment.

In fairness that is nonsense, Antrim have no chance, Donegal very little and Derry only a bit more. Monaghan and Down probably do but would Down swop their semi final slot for an ulster title? Not on your life!

I don't think it's perfect, but I think the argument that is somehow inconveniences the great counties in their march to All Ireland glory is not a good enough reason for telling 2/3 of the country that you can completely forget about winning anything, ever.

I don't understand your point and I couldn't care less about the 'great' counties, I don't want to see the system changed because of last weekend, I want to see it changed because it is a poor format whatever way you look at it.

Even if you gave the league more 'importance' in terms of All Ireland standings, or raised the profile of the McKenna etc (I'd get rid of them), do you think the people in Louth would have been so upset if they lost a Division 3 final, or an O'Byrne Cup final?

You keep coming back to this but you're missing the point. Currently a Leinster title is more important than a league title because the league isn't taken seriously but if it was then it would be celebrated as much as a provincial title.

What ye are saying would take generations to come to fruition, and they'd be generations where there'd be less and less interest in the majority of counties because they'd know they had no hope of any silverware from day one.

It didn't take generations for Munster and Leinster to develop a fan base why would it take generations for GAA fans to enjoy their team winning competitions that everyone fought tooth and nail for? And I'll make the point again, every team will have a more realistic chance of winning their league than most will of their province.

I'm afraid in this area I disagree with practically everything you say Zulu. I could counter every single statement you've said up there, but we'd be here all weekend batting it back and forward. However, you can't make a statement like this...

Currently a Leinster title is more important than a league title because the league isn't taken seriously but if it was then it would be celebrated as much as a provincial title.

That's a hell of a big 'IF'. You're talking about changing a complete mindset rather than a format of a competition.

Your last point is laughable. It didn't take Munster and Leinster (rugby) long to build a fanbase because they were competitive and in the hunt to win things immediately. And really the HEC is where it's at, nobody cares about the league in rugby either. In fact, a lot of the competitions like the Celtic Cup that helped raise their profile were almost mimics of the GAA's provincial system. Give them something winnable to aim at so it's not just a hopeless crusade into Europe.

But the point remains that I believe if Munster and Leinster had no hope of contesting for the HEC, the interest in them would be an awful lot lower.

The point remains that if I am a footballer in any county apart from maybe the top 10, and I wake up next May, I believe I can give the provincial title a good rattle with a bt of luck, and on a good day. I cannot believe that many of them will be thinking they can do anything other than 'have a bit of a run' in an open draw type All Ireland championship. Of course it'll suit the teams who view the provinces as a distraction, but those teams tend to be few in number, and only for a couple of years.

Meath and Louth seemed keen to win the Leinster. Monaghan were absolutely distraught after they failed. Sligo too. Limerick bounced back better, but in other years losing Munster has gutted them as well. The vast majority of teams in Ireland start out the year looking to win their provincial title. A run in the qualifiers is either a) a bonus or b) a nuisance.

[thewobbler]

Rossfan, it's the All-Ireland Senior Football Championship, but you want to treat it like the Special Olympics.

Winning should be for winners, not for making weaker counties feel better about themselves.


Dec - there were any number of dead rubbers in the Championship this year. Down v Sligo and Armagh v Donegal spring to mind as games that were rendered pointless because of the current system knocking the shite out Sligo in the first of those, and just not inspiring Donegal in the second.

[Zulu]

That's a hell of a big 'IF'. You're talking about changing a complete mindset rather than a format of a competition.

AZ, if Offaly beat Kerry in a challenge match it's nice but no big deal, if they beat them in the league it's very enjoyable but it's only the league but if they beat them in the AI series it is heaven. Now there is a few reasons for all of that, not least the fact that you knock them out in the last scenario but the other fact is that you know you beat a team that was as strong as it could be and was trying as hard as it could. That is the real source of satisfaction, when they game is important and you win it you know you were the better team. If every team in Ireland was going hell for leather for the national leagues the there is no doubt in my mind that winning them would mean as much to the teams as any provincial title, especially the top 2 divisions. What would be more satisfying to Mayo for example winning a proper league title with Cork, Kerry, Galway, Tyrone etc. in it or beating two teams to win Connacht?

Your last point is laughable. It didn't take Munster and Leinster (rugby) long to build a fanbase because they were competitive and in the hunt to win things immediately.

Of course that's the reason but the point is that loads of people with little interest in rugby became fans within a few years of inventing a competition. In otherwords lads who couldn't tell you an egg from a rugby ball were big fans of a new competition and thought it was important to win it within 5 or 6 years. The reason? The best players were playing and trying to win (the French excluded in some cases). Likewise if fans knew the league was being taken seriously they would respond, we don't need the provincial championships, we don't need any particular format. What we need to get excited is the knowledge that all the teams are taking it seriously and therefore winning actually means something.

In fact, a lot of the competitions like the Celtic Cup that helped raise their profile

that was a dead duck competition until they linked it to the HEC and once they did that the standard of teams improved and the crowds increased. My proposal goes a step further and would ensure our leagues are evn better supported. Besides, improving tehleague is as important as improving the championship, the system I've proposed does both.

[Stall the Bailer]

I like your suggestion wobbler.
I have one question for those who say, scrape the Provincial championships. How would you fund the Provincial councils?
Your suggestions would need a revenue scheme linked to each council. Or should the four councils be done away with and have a more central administration?

Are there less dead rubbers in Rugby pool matches? Maybe having bonus points or changing the points for a win/draw could lessen these. In pool/league games I would prefer more reward for a victory. As currently in the championship, a win is the only thing that gets you through to the next round.

Also the first prize in this scenario is reaching the Provincial final (as every team in Ulster has done in last ten years). Winning the title is just extra reward before the main event.

[AZOffaly]

That's a hell of a big 'IF'. You're talking about changing a complete mindset rather than a format of a competition.


. What would be more satisfying to Mayo for example winning a proper league title with Cork, Kerry, Galway, Tyrone etc. in it or beating two teams to win Connacht?

I think you've summed it up. That's the question. Lets ask them? If you're talking today and swapped Mayo for Offaly, I'd say winning the Leinster every day, and twice on Sundays.

If you are talking about some hypothetical scenario where winning the league will somehow replace the parochial nature of the provincial championships, and give the same buzz as beating your neighbours in a championship match, then maybe the league. But that is absolutely miles away in my view.

[Stall the Bailer]

Come October time or there about, we will see how much it costs to run different county teams. If there are fewer derbies and more travelling to the other side of the country then there would be increased costs. The provincial games means also mean that fans don't have too far to go to watch their teams.
How many here would drive over 200 miles or more (round trip) every other week to watch their team?

I would predict higher costs for county boards and for fans, with also less income for the GAA, in the suggested non provincial structures.

[Zulu]

At the moment everyone would pick the provincial championship because that is the important competition but we can, and more importantly should, make the leagues vitally important in the season. If you did that they I'm sure 95% of people would pick a division 1 win over everything bar an AI. There is no reason this has to take years, we could do within 3 years or less.

I have one question for those who say, scrape the Provincial championships. How would you fund the Provincial councils?
Your suggestions would need a revenue scheme linked to each council. Or should the four councils be done away with and have a more central administration?

Personally I'd like to see more centralisation of GAA administration but if we retain the provincial councils they could take a share of gate recpiets involving 2 counties from their province or split them with the other province in the case of a Meath/Galway game for example. Another advantage of linking league and championship would be the vastly increased revenue for CB's from better attended league games and a better TV deal.

Other advantages off teh top of my head:

Reduced ticket prices, better ticketing packages - season tickets, families, clubs etc., increased promotional opportunities for counties, e.g. free tickets for kids in disadvantaged areas or schools/areas which don't have a strong GAA tradition.

Easier access for families to matches

More high quality games involving the best teams in the country which could be televised on Fri, Sat and Sun. How often have any of you seen the (possibly) best hurling team of all time this year?

Return to knockout championship, and considering Sligo, Antrim, Louth, Longford, Limerick, Roscommon and Wicklow were all in division 3 or 4 the first round of the championship could have been a blood bath this year. Imagine the excitment our championship would have if 3 or 4 of those teams knocked out division 1 and 2 teams in the first round weekend and were all in the last 16?

Come October time or there about, we will see how much it costs to run different county teams. If there are fewer derbies and more travelling to the other side of the country then there would be increased costs. The provincial games means also mean that fans don't have too far to go to watch their teams.
How many here would drive over 200 miles or more (round trip) every other week to watch their team?

I would predict higher costs for county boards and for fans, with also less income for the GAA, in the suggested non provincial structures.

Again you are looking at it from the extreme negative view point. In division 2 this year Meath had Kildare, Down, Armagh and WM, none of those are a massive trip away, In division 4 Limerick, Clare, Kilkenny and Waterford were together. Ireland is small and while there will always be a few games that away fans won't travel to in big numbers there are many games they can and with increased home support revenues will be up. And I don't see how costs for CB's would increase as the national league is played already so there is no extra travelling, in fact it would be reduced as 16 teams would be gone after one game of the chammpionship whereas at the moment all teams have two championship games at least.

[Rossfan]

Wobbler ...
You want only meaningful competition for a few leading counties and force the rest to play 3 games they have no chance of winning in a Competition they havent an earthly chance of winning.
Any proposal which wants to abolish the Provincial Championships will NEVER see the light of day.
Any new system will retain them the only question at issue is how integral a part (if any) will they play in the all Ireland Championship.