SDLP and Sinn Fein. Surely an electoral pact would make sense

[balladmaker]

Going off on a slight tangent, but what will be the impact on the stability of the Union whenever Scotland vote and decide to go Independent.  That day could be alot closer than people think given the most recent polls.

So we would then have a union of England, Wales and 'Northern' Ireland, with the Unionists in the north having lost their unionist link with their motherland i.e. Scotland. 

Interesting times ahead.

[Zapatista]

I'd say little effect. It won't change the opinion of unionists and it won't change the opinion of republicans (if it happens). Depending on the success or failure of an independant Scotland willl only add wieght to whichever argument it suits. It's different too as the alternative to the north being in the union isn't an independnt north but a reunified ireland. Other than the the Scots can do what they want and we will do what we want.

[Hardy]

What about a United Republic Of Ireland And Scotland?

Zapatista - sorry to be pedantic, but I have to challenge your assertion that the SDLP don't claim to be republican. A separate definition of "republican" has grown up in this country effectively due to acceptance of the hijacking of the term by the provos and its application to themselves and others who support the "physical force" tradition of Irish republicanism. The dictionary definition of "republican" is adherence to the principle that the people are sovereign and that government does not accommodate a monarchy. Every political party in the country adheres to that principle, as far as I know. We need to reclaim the term, if only for precision of language.

[longrunsthefox]

What about a United Republic Of Ireland And Scotland?

Zapatista - sorry to be pedantic, but I have to challenge your assertion that the SDLP don't claim to be republican. A separate definition of "republican" has grown up in this country effectively due to acceptance of the hijacking of the term by the provos and its application to themselves and others who support the "physical force" tradition of Irish republicanism. The dictionary definition of "republican" is adherence to the principle that the people are sovereign and that government does not accommodate a monarchy. Every political party in the country adheres to that principle, as far as I know. We need to reclaim the term, if only for precision of language.

Kind of agree with you there Hardy. Was also a hijacking of the tricolour and Irish language, like they  don't belong to us all

[Zapatista]

What about a United Republic Of Ireland And Scotland?

Zapatista - sorry to be pedantic, but I have to challenge your assertion that the SDLP don't claim to be republican. A separate definition of "republican" has grown up in this country effectively due to acceptance of the hijacking of the term by the provos and its application to themselves and others who support the "physical force" tradition of Irish republicanism. The dictionary definition of "republican" is adherence to the principle that the people are sovereign and that government does not accommodate a monarchy. Every political party in the country adheres to that principle, as far as I know. We need to reclaim the term, if only for precision of language.

True to an extent. The SDLP don't claim to be republican though. They aren't apologetic about it either which is fair enoguh. They don't see the need to claim to be republican which is fair enough. I'm sure if they were offered a republic they would accept but they are in a place were the aren't and accept that. The SDLP don't have an end game of creating a new republic. They want to work within and improve the systems in place.

I disagree that SF hijacked the term republicanism. They were labled it by Unionist and the British media as to them it's almost a dirty word. It's still a dirty word to many of them and is used as another reason to fear SF. SF embraced it. 

Personally I define Repulicans as those who try to spread republicanism. Those who start by making their own country a republic and then go on to promote it across the world. Just like a green tries to make thier own environment more green but also promote it across the world. All parties have a view on a greener environment but there is only on who prioritise it and promote it away from home. This is were many other parties fall as they are happy in their own republic but do nothing to promote republicanism. Not even to their fellow Irish people in the north.

[Maguire01]

Agree one hundred percent Trevor. I'd also put forward another one. For those who understand, no explanation is needed; for those who don't understand, no explanation will be good enough. ;-) Maybe in your old age wisdom you could put your anti-republicanism aside for a quick second and explain to me why a party which calls themselves nationalist would oppose a council motion calling for All Ireland co-operation?

Stil posting at that time? I hope SF is giving you a good shift allowance!

[ardmhachaabu]

True to an extent. The SDLP don't claim to be republican though. They aren't apologetic about it either which is fair enoguh. They don't see the need to claim to be republican which is fair enough. I'm sure if they were offered a republic they would accept but they are in a place were the aren't and accept that. The SDLP don't have an end game of creating a new republic. They want to work within and improve the systems in place.

Zap, thing about the SDLP is that it's a broad church.  As such, there are people who have republican ideologies in the Irish sense, it's just not the single biggest issue the party have.  I am not a member of the SDLP, I know some SDLP members though who are Republicans/republicans (whichever you prefer) It's funny that you point to them working the system from within when that's precisely what SF have now accepted as the only true democratic norm.  I would contend that some members of the SDLP are as Republican/republican as some members of SF only they never participated in or supported a murderous campaign against fellow Irish citizens. 

[Nally Stand]

You assume i'm in Ireland at the minute Maguire :-P On the republican debate that has sprung up once again, Hardy again gives a base definition of it, however it has different strands across the world. Irish Republicanism has developed into it's own political philosophy which encompasses more than what you see in a dictionary definition of "republicanism". Certainly the SDLP are not Irish Republicans based on the evidence. I think they hit the nail on the head when they proclaimed to be post nationalist.

[Nally Stand]

Zap where do you get off this bull that the IRA campaign was a "murder campaign against Irish fellow citizens". In their  campaign, over 80% of those killed or injured were willing participants in the conflict. It wasn't some one sided murder campaign. And what kind of republican opposes All Ireland co-operation. I'm still trying to work that out.

[Zapatista]

Zap where do you get off this bull that the IRA campaign was a "murder campaign against Irish fellow citizens". In their  campaign, over 80% of those killed or injured were willing participants in the conflict. It wasn't some one sided murder campaign. And what kind of republican opposes All Ireland co-operation. I'm still trying to work that out.

I think you got the wrong guy.

Zap, thing about the SDLP is that it's a broad church.  As such, there are people who have republican ideologies in the Irish sense, it's just not the single biggest issue the party have.  I am not a member of the SDLP, I know some SDLP members though who are Republicans/republicans (whichever you prefer) It's funny that you point to them working the system from within when that's precisely what SF have now accepted as the only true democratic norm.

I know the SDLP are a broad church. I wasn't having a go at them. There are people of all sorts in SF too. Those who oppose violence at all costs, those who support it in certain conditions, those who are nationalist and not republican(and vise versa) and those of left and right wing religous and economic ideals.

I don't find it one bit funny. The GFA brought this about. It is a different system than the one the SDLP took part in. It is also something SF were involved in creating. The comparison you make isn't a real comparison and holds no water when looked at objectively.

[ardmhachaabu]

I know the SDLP are a broad church. I wasn't having a go at them. There are people of all sorts in SF too. Those who oppose violence at all costs, those who support it in certain conditions, those who are nationalist and not republican(and vise versa) and those of left and right wing religous and economic ideals.

I don't find it one bit funny. The GFA brought this about. It is a different system than the one the SDLP took part in. It is also something SF were involved in creating. The comparison you make isn't a real comparison and holds no water when looked at objectively.

WRT your first point, I accept that SF is becoming a bit broader in terms of its support base, that only happened when they told their military people to jettison the armed struggle in favour of them sitting in pubs + clubs day in and day out. 

In the article posted in the 'soon to be published voices from the grave' thread.  Darkie Hughes tells the joke Q. 'What is the difference between a Sticky (Official IRA) and a Provie (Provisional IRA).

A. Twenty years.

Fact of the matter is, he was right.  The current political setup in the north was best described by Seamus Mallon as 'Sunningdale for slow learners' - the same deal was on offer then and was rejected by unionists and republicans

[dodgy umpire]

ardmhachaabu I have never claimed to "know so much " about Sinn Fein, nor am i member or a big supporter (some of their policies are absurd). You accused some of our elected politicians of being murderers, i just think it should be made clear who just so as not to tar them all with the same brush etc. You perhaps are refusing to name names as you have nothing to back up your statement? Feel free to retract it at any time. If you don't want to answer that is fair enough, I will leave you to it.   

[ardmhachaabu]

dodgy, you know that would break the board rules.  If you really want to know, do your own research on the current leadership of SF.  Their backgrounds are well documented

[dodgy umpire]

dodgy, you know that would break the board rules.  If you really want to know, do your own research on the current leadership of SF.  Their backgrounds are well documented

Fair enough

[Nally Stand]

I've said before on this thread that apart from the fact that sunningdale was not the same as the Good Friday Agreement, the conditions at that time were not realistic for it to work. The British was machine was at full swing then. Until Britain wound this down and took the peace process seriously, it would never have worked. This was the very reason for the Canary Wharf attack. It's been a struggle enough in peace time.