The 26 County Lisbon Treaty Poll

[Hound]

"The Lisbon Treaty now proposes to give the European Council (Heads of Government) the power to propose changes to certain parts of the governing Treaties, although this proposed power is quite limited. Any such change cannot increase the competence of the EU – the scope of its powers (see page 27). In addition, any such proposals must be agreed unanimously by the European Council, meaning that any one member state may veto such a proposal. If the European Council does agree a proposed change, then in order for it to come into effect, it must be ratified by the member states in accordance with their own constitutional requirements. This may require a referendum in Ireland as happens at present. "

My reading of this is that a referenudum will be required in the following events:
- Something is proposed that increases the competence/scope of the EU (because in such case you are not allowed to amend a treaty, you must bring in a new one).
- Any single amendment to the treaty is beyond the scope of our constitution, therefore a referednum is required for that aspect (presumably this will be the decision of the Attorney General, but subject to appeal by anyone to the Supreme Court).

Both highlighted comments are different.

I know you are not thick Zap, so please stop pretending to be. The first comment states that referendums are required only in certain circumstances. The second details when a referendum will be required.

Any such change cannot increase the competence of the EU – the scope of its powers

This is brilliant. There would be no need for them to increase the 'scope of powers' as they will already have everything they need due to Lisbon. Lisbon allows the EU to act like a state so they would already have the power to do what they want. You can't increase the scope of something that can do whatever it wants to do,

Nonsense.

There are areas where EU has exclusive competence, areas where EU has no competence (i.e. the national states have exclusive competence, and areas where there are joint competence. This is nothing new, we're all aware for instance that certain legal matters can be appealed to European courts, who's decision can over-rule Irish courts. This doesnt change with Lisbon. Lisbon details each of the 3 areas, as follows:

EU exclusive competence:
- Customs Union
- Establishment of competition rules necessary for the functioning of the internal market
- Monetary policy for member states which use the euro
- Conservation of the biological resources of the sea as part of the common fisheries policy
- Common commercial policy
- The conclusion of an international agreement when this is within the framework of EU legislation or when it is necessary to help the EU exercise an internal competence
or if there is a possibility of the common rules being affected or of their range being changed

Joint competence
- Internal market
- Social policy with regard to specific aspects defined in the Treaty
- Economic, social and territorial cohesion
- Agriculture and fisheries except for the conservation of the biological resources of the sea
- Environment (the Treaty includes specific reference to climate change)
- Consumer protection
- Transport
- Trans-European Networks
- Energy
- Area of Freedom, Security and Justice
- Common safety concerns with regard to aspects of public health
- Research, technological development
- Space
- Development co-operation and humanitarian aid

National state competence
- Protection and improvement of human healthcare
- Industry
- Culture
- Tourism
- Education, professional training, youth
- Sport
- Civil protection
- Administrative co-operation

If the EU want to increase their powers in either of the latter two lists, this can only be done by a new treaty and not by an amendment to an existing treaty, and such new treaty would require a referendum in Ireland.

[Hound]

100% correct and time will prove this. Say bye bye to a vote on any major european event, we'll be like every other country now that is making decisions in their parliment even though the majority of people in those countries are not in favour.

Fair fecks to Sinn Fein and Libertas if they have fooled any voter into believing this rubbish. People obviously forget that Sinn Fein are totally anti-Europe and have voted No to every single referendum on Europe.

[Zapatista]

- The conclusion of an international agreement when this is within the framework of EU legislation or when it is necessary to help the EU exercise an internal competence or if there is a possibility of the common rules being affected or of their range being changed

Does this mean if they want to change something after an agreement they can change internal workings of the EU?

Fair fecks to Sinn Fein and Libertas if they have fooled any voter into believing this rubbish. People obviously forget that Sinn Fein are totally anti-Europe and have voted No to every single referendum on Europe.

We have No men on one side and Yes men on the other. Both have been right on occasion.

[Zapatista]

Vote No for Democracy.

Vote No and demand an EU based on the needs of it's citizens.

Vote No and Demand an EU that will lead the way for a better world.

Vote No against further militarisation.

Vote No to protect workers rights.

Vote No against war monger Blair.

Vote No for those denied a vote.

Vote No against FF and corruption.

Vote No to NAMA.

Vote No again and again and again until they listen.

[Hound]

Vote No for Democracy.
Vote No and demand an EU based on the needs of it's citizens.
Vote No and Demand an EU that will lead the way for a better world.
Vote No against further militarisation.
Vote No to protect workers rights.
Vote No against war monger Blair.
Vote No for those denied a vote.
Vote No against FF and corruption.
Vote No to NAMA.
Vote No again and again and again until they listen.

Wow, outdoing yourself now. Even some of your own comrades wouldnt believe that crap!!

[Zapatista]

 

[magpie seanie]

"The Lisbon Treaty now proposes to give the European Council (Heads of Government) the power to propose changes to certain parts of the governing Treaties, although this proposed power is quite limited. Any such change cannot increase the competence of the EU – the scope of its powers (see page 27). In addition, any such proposals must be agreed unanimously by the European Council, meaning that any one member state may veto such a proposal. If the European Council does agree a proposed change, then in order for it to come into effect, it must be ratified by the member states in accordance with their own constitutional requirements. This may require a referendum in Ireland as happens at present. "

My reading of this is that a referenudum will be required in the following events:
- Something is proposed that increases the competence/scope of the EU (because in such case you are not allowed to amend a treaty, you must bring in a new one).
- Any single amendment to the treaty is beyond the scope of our constitution, therefore a referednum is required for that aspect (presumably this will be the decision of the Attorney General, but subject to appeal by anyone to the Supreme Court).

Both highlighted comments are different.


Any such change cannot increase the competence of the EU – the scope of its powers

This is brilliant. There would be no need for them to increase the 'scope of powers' as they will already have everything they need due to Lisbon. Lisbon allows the EU to act like a state so they would already have the power to do what they want. You can't increase the scope of something that can do whatever it wants to do,

100% correct and time will prove this. Say bye bye to a vote on any major european event, we'll be like every other country now that is making decisions in their parliment even though the majority of people in those countries are not in favour.

Hound - I think time will prove you are mistaken on this item. All the competences are mentioned in the treaty as you have shown. A change in the decision making process over a competence will be merely an "administrative change" and I would doubt whether this would require a referendum in this country. When the Referendum Commission can only be vague about it then the benefit of the doubt must be given to the status quo. I have no faith in our politicians and frankly I'd be gobsmacked by anyone that does. If they get leaned on they will do exactly what Brussels says. McCreevy was the last one who stood up to them, it won't happen again. Europe must be fair and our voice must be heard. We are a nation, not merely 4 million inhabitants off the north west coast.

Tony Blair - President of Europe. My stomach turned.

[Hound]

Tony Blair - President of Europe. My stomach turned.

While I think the English media are very presumptious in that regard, it should be noted that the so called president of Europe will have no decision making powers. Just replaces the 6 month rotation of "president" between the member states. Blair already was "president" for at least one six month term, and the world didnt end.

[mylestheslasher]

100% correct and time will prove this. Say bye bye to a vote on any major european event, we'll be like every other country now that is making decisions in their parliment even though the majority of people in those countries are not in favour.

Fair fecks to Sinn Fein and Libertas if they have fooled any voter into believing this rubbish. People obviously forget that Sinn Fein are totally anti-Europe and have voted No to every single referendum on Europe.

Now Hound,

I never vote on a referendum based on anyones opinion but my own so it is a bit low claiming I have been brainwashed by either SF or libertas. On the need for future referendums I was listening to a debate on the radio on Today fm last word and when the No person brought this up the Yes person pretty much conceded it was true. When I read up on it I had to agree that there will be no more referendums on European issues as Lisbon is too broad for anything to be considered outside its remits - the requirement as defined by our supreme court for having a referendum.

[magpie seanie]

100% correct and time will prove this. Say bye bye to a vote on any major european event, we'll be like every other country now that is making decisions in their parliment even though the majority of people in those countries are not in favour.

Fair fecks to Sinn Fein and Libertas if they have fooled any voter into believing this rubbish. People obviously forget that Sinn Fein are totally anti-Europe and have voted No to every single referendum on Europe.

Now Hound,

I never vote on a referendum based on anyones opinion but my own so it is a bit low claiming I have been brainwashed by either SF or libertas. On the need for future referendums I was listening to a debate on the radio on Today fm last word and when the No person brought this up the Yes person pretty much conceded it was true. When I read up on it I had to agree that there will be no more referendums on European issues as Lisbon is too broad for anything to be considered outside its remits - the requirement as defined by our supreme court for having a referendum.

Correct. We wouldn't be having any of these Euro referendums if the politicians had there way. It is the result of a Supreme Court ruling in the 1980's that we have these referenda (and re-runs when we get the answer wrong). The broadness of Lisbon's terms will most likely end this pesky little difficulty for our ruling class.

As for being accused of being brainwashed - my character was called into question yesterday.

[Hound]

100% correct and time will prove this. Say bye bye to a vote on any major european event, we'll be like every other country now that is making decisions in their parliment even though the majority of people in those countries are not in favour.

Fair fecks to Sinn Fein and Libertas if they have fooled any voter into believing this rubbish. People obviously forget that Sinn Fein are totally anti-Europe and have voted No to every single referendum on Europe.

Now Hound,

I never vote on a referendum based on anyones opinion but my own so it is a bit low claiming I have been brainwashed by either SF or libertas. On the need for future referendums I was listening to a debate on the radio on Today fm last word and when the No person brought this up the Yes person pretty much conceded it was true. When I read up on it I had to agree that there will be no more referendums on European issues as Lisbon is too broad for anything to be considered outside its remits - the requirement as defined by our supreme court for having a referendum.

Correct. We wouldn't be having any of these Euro referendums if the politicians had there way. It is the result of a Supreme Court ruling in the 1980's that we have these referenda (and re-runs when we get the answer wrong). The broadness of Lisbon's terms will most likely end this pesky little difficulty for our ruling class.

As for being accused of being brainwashed - my character was called into question yesterday.

Well if you choose to believe the No side regarding referedum's rather than the Independent Refereudum commission, then certainly I won't be able to change your mind.

I didnt mention brainwashed, but I do repeat that the No side do an amazing job in putting things into people's heads. Maybe that is brainwashed?

I presume you're not talking about the Libertas posters regarding the character thing. I thought we dealt with that and both concluded they were out of order.

[magpie seanie]

Yes but the more I thought about it last night I was annoyed about you saying that you had obviously misjudged my character. Anyway - its off my chest now.

[Hound]

Yes but the more I thought about it last night I was annoyed about you saying that you had obviously misjudged my character. Anyway - its off my chest now.

Sorry for annoying you. I deleted it as soon as you clarified what you meant.

[magpie seanie]

Fair play, I hadn't seen that.

[Tankie]

Vote No for Democracy.

Vote No and demand an EU based on the needs of it's citizens.

Vote No and Demand an EU that will lead the way for a better world.

Vote No against further militarisation.

Vote No to protect workers rights.

Vote No against war monger Blair.

Vote No for those denied a vote.

Vote No against FF and corruption.

Vote No to NAMA.

Vote No again and again and again until they listen.

I always find it funny when SF come out with those lines