Sinn Fein vs Sieg Heil - Spot the Difference

[man in black]

Given the manner in which many are brought up in the wee 6, and the continued expression of their dominance and superiority which will take on its own shining clarity in the coming week, you must feel some empathy with the ethos EG.

[Evil Genius]

If you look at my posts I don't think I ever stated nor even suggested that Windsor Park was named after the Royal Family.

Not after I pointed out the chronology.
Rather, you attempted to establish some sort of spurious link between the Windsor area and several streets originally being named after Royal Castles, so that LFC were merely "going with the flow" when choosing the name "Windsor Park" for their new ground.
Though I suppose you should be credited from desisting with that theory, after I demonstrated that it was nonsense (nothing personal, btw).

As I said the information on Sean Russell has been known for years.  Noted historian Brian Hanley (OK I've never heard of him but probably held in higher regard than Henry McDonald) stated...he wasn't a Nazi.  We could list many examples of collaboration of many people with Nazis and other regimes.  Didn't the British and Americans facilitate the escape of many Nazis to South America after the war??  Churchill was well aware taht Stalin was systematically killing his own people and thousands of Poles yet turned a blind eye because the Soviets were on our side.  Are you trying to suggest that Sean Russell, and by extension the 'RA and the current SF leadership were somehow responsible for the actions of the Nazi regime?  Russell is being remembered for his role in the 1916 Rising and War of Indpedence etc, I doubt whether they are celebrating his actions during WW2 much in the same way as you are referencing Molyneaux's and Chichester- Clarke's (he must have been wounded in the head) war exploits and ignoring their support of a regime that denied human rights to many of its citizens.

The true story of Sean Russell and his active collaboration with the Nazis has, indeed, been known for many years.
However, my point in opening this thread was to demonstrate that not only do Sinn Fein seek to "honour" this person, nor even that they fail to acknowledge his guilty secret, rather it was that they are actively seeking to re-write history, in the most cynical of ways. Worse still, if they will lie about the past, what is to stop them lying about the present?

Or maybe Gerry Adams wasn't ever in the IRA, nor his father or uncles etc before him?

Perhaps they really do think we were all born yesterday?  

The 1920s and 1930s in Ireland were a complex time.  I cite the example of my father's uncle who fought at the Battle of Jutland, was burnt out of his house in the 1920s by presumed supporters of his role in WW1, joined the IRA in the 1920s, rejoined the Royal Navy in 1939 (while the IRA was "at war" with Britian), was offered a desk job because of his age, but volunteered for active service, and was lost at sea in 1940.

That period was, indeed, complex, causing many to have to make difficult choices. I for one do not condemn your Great Uncle for joining the IRA in the 20's, even though this would have brought him into direct conflict with my own Grandparents etc both in the Free State and NI, since I don't know what his personal circumstances were etc.

But I do know a fair bit about WWII generally, and consider he made a noble and principled choice in 1939 between fighting against Britain or fighting against the Nazis (or even remaining neutral, for which he could have been forgiven), and I salute him for it. You should be very proud of him (imo).

[Evil Genius]

From the Detroit-based National Socialist Movement

The (recent) furore over Prince Harry of England donning Nazi uniform is astonishing.  There has always been a close association between the Royal Family and the Nazi Party.

The Queen's husband, Prince Philip was trained in the Hitler Youth curriculum, Nordic and Aryan myth, and eugenics.  His four brothers-in-law, with whom he lived, were all German who all became high-ranking figures in the Nazi Party.

Philip was the only boy in the family and his four sisters were considerably older than he "more like aunts than sisters" as one biographer put it. Philip lived with his sisters and their husbands because his parents had a "difficult" home life. His four brothers-in-law were all German and all became high-ranking figures in the Nazi Party.

Through the influence of his sister, Theodora, young Philip was sent to a German school near Lake Constantine that had been founded by her father-in-law, Max von Baden, and his longtime personal secretary, Kurt Hahn. Though half-Jewish, Hahn was an early supporter of the Nazi Party, and the school was a hotbed of Hitler Youth activity, Nordic and Aryan myth, and eugenics.

Philip's sister Margarita married a Czech-Austrian prince named Gottfried von Hohenlohe-Langenburg, a great-grandson of England's Queen Victoria; Theodora married Berthold, the Margrave of Baden; Cecelia to Georg Donatus, Grand Duke of Hesse-by-Rhine, also a great-grandson of Victoria; and Sophie to Prince Christoph of Hesse.

By 1935 Prince Christoph was chief of the Forschungsamt (directorate of scientific research), a special intelligence operation run by Hermann Göring, and he was also Standartenführer (colonel) of the SS on Heinrich Himmler's personal staff.

The Forschungsamt used electronic intelligence-gathering methods to police the Nazi Party, while working with the Gestapo against the Catholic Church and the Jews.

The son of Sophie and Prince Christoph was named Karl Adolf after Hitler and Prince Philip afterwards took a keen educational interest in his nephew

Prince Christoph's brother, Philip of Hesse, married a daughter of the King of Italy, and became the official liaison between the Nazi and Fascist regimes.

Philip's sister Cecilia and her husband Georg Donatus, hereditary grand duke of Hesse-by-Rhine, died in 1937 when the plane they were flying to London in crashed. It was a Junkers belonging to Hermann Göring.

According to Newsweek (April 5, 1976) it was known that Prince Bernhard was a member of a special SS intelligence unit in IG Farben and this had originally been pointed out in testimony at the Nuremberg trials.

Bernhard resigned from the SS, in 1937, when he married the future Queen Juliana of the Netherlands. Adolf Hitler forwarded a congratulatory message though Bernhard, who became a naturalised Dutchman.

Philip and Bernhard remained not just distant relatives but close friends and in October, 1961, founded the World Wildlife Fund.

In the Queen's family her Uncle, the former King Edward VIII, had considerable Nazi sympathies as did his mistress and later wife, Wallis Simpson.

Edward's and Wallis' Nazi sympathies were, in part, responsible for him being forced off the throne although the version the public got was that Wallis, as a twice divorced American, would be an unsuitable wife for a King.

In 1945 MI5 officer Anthony Blunt was sent to Germany as a personal emissary of King George VI to retrieve papers written between the Duke of Windsor and Nazi officials that, had they been made public, would probably have destroyed the Royal family.

Many years' later it was revealed that Anthony Blunt was a Soviet spy. He was enabled for many years to maintain his position as survey of the Queen's pictures because of his implied threat to tell all the Nazi secrets of the Duke of Windsor if he were sacked.

"Wallis Simpson, the Nazi minister, the telltale monk and an FBI plot US papers shed light on efforts to spy on fascist sympathizers."

I dunno, 1 statue against a lifetime of paying taxes to keep those parasites in the comfort they're accustomed to? Mmmmmmmmmmmm

Good Grief! I get slated for citing Wikipedia, yet you quote* this crowd of loons in Detroit calling themselves "the Nationalist Socialist Movement", without a cheep out of "the usual suspects".
http://www.timesreporter.com/homepage/x1518884444/National-Socialist-Movement-holds-rally-on-Phila-Public-Square


Then when I actually get round to browsing through the trash in the actual article you cite, it has precisely nothing to do with the murky relationship between Sinn Fein and the Nazis, but instead is an exercise by you in "whataboutery" of the crassest kind.

If you really want to explore any relationship between the British Royal Family and the Nazis, then why don't you start a separate thread? That way you won't be clogging up this one with utter irrelevancies...  no wait, that can't have been your intention in the first place? Can it? 

On second thoughts, maybe you'd be better off rubbing some Brasso into that neck of yours...

* - No actual link, btw 

[A Quinn Martin Production]

If you look at my posts I don't think I ever stated nor even suggested that Windsor Park was named after the Royal Family.

Not after I pointed out the chronology.
Rather, you attempted to establish some sort of spurious link between the Windsor area and several streets originally being named after Royal Castles, so that LFC were merely "going with the flow" when choosing the name "Windsor Park" for their new ground.
Though I suppose you should be credited from desisting with that theory, after I demonstrated that it was nonsense (nothing personal, btw).

As I said the information on Sean Russell has been known for years.  Noted historian Brian Hanley (OK I've never heard of him but probably held in higher regard than Henry McDonald) stated...he wasn't a Nazi.  We could list many examples of collaboration of many people with Nazis and other regimes.  Didn't the British and Americans facilitate the escape of many Nazis to South America after the war??  Churchill was well aware taht Stalin was systematically killing his own people and thousands of Poles yet turned a blind eye because the Soviets were on our side.  Are you trying to suggest that Sean Russell, and by extension the 'RA and the current SF leadership were somehow responsible for the actions of the Nazi regime?  Russell is being remembered for his role in the 1916 Rising and War of Indpedence etc, I doubt whether they are celebrating his actions during WW2 much in the same way as you are referencing Molyneaux's and Chichester- Clarke's (he must have been wounded in the head) war exploits and ignoring their support of a regime that denied human rights to many of its citizens.

The true story of Sean Russell and his active collaboration with the Nazis has, indeed, been known for many years.
However, my point in opening this thread was to demonstrate that not only do Sinn Fein seek to "honour" this person, nor even that they fail to acknowledge his guilty secret, rather it was that they are actively seeking to re-write history, in the most cynical of ways. Worse still, if they will lie about the past, what is to stop them lying about the present?

Or maybe Gerry Adams wasn't ever in the IRA, nor his father or uncles etc before him?

Perhaps they really do think we were all born yesterday?  

The 1920s and 1930s in Ireland were a complex time.  I cite the example of my father's uncle who fought at the Battle of Jutland, was burnt out of his house in the 1920s by presumed supporters of his role in WW1, joined the IRA in the 1920s, rejoined the Royal Navy in 1939 (while the IRA was "at war" with Britian), was offered a desk job because of his age, but volunteered for active service, and was lost at sea in 1940.

That period was, indeed, complex, causing many to have to make difficult choices. I for one do not condemn your Great Uncle for joining the IRA in the 20's, even though this would have brought him into direct conflict with my own Grandparents etc both in the Free State and NI, since I don't know what his personal circumstances were etc.

But I do know a fair bit about WWII generally, and consider he made a noble and principled choice in 1939 between fighting against Britain or fighting against the Nazis (or even remaining neutral, for which he could have been forgiven), and I salute him for it. You should be very proud of him (imo).

I don't have the time to check every post but I never stated that WP was named after the Royal Family (as you have suggested) as I knew it wasn't being familair with the chronology well before you reminded me (thanks for that anyway, it's nice when we agree )  What were you grandparents circumstances that may have brought them into with my Great Uncle??  It wasn't them who burnt down his house in the 20s was it?!?!?  I'm very proud of everything he did in his life

As for the Shinners, it's a bit of a leap to say that by remembering ~Russell  they're trying to re-write history (imo).  BTW will you be supporting the Saffrons on the 19th??

[deiseach]

Wow! So Nazism wasn't really any worse than Communism, then?

I know which ideology murdered more people. You can argue that you shouldn't reduce these things to crude head counts but I'd say it's a more objective measure for evil than, well, whatever it is that you use.

Incidentally, I'm not arguing that Seán Russell was one of the good guys. But if you're going to condemn him because of the actions of his allies, I'd expect you to hold others to the same standard.

[Evil Genius]

so the Sinn fein that was set up in the 1980's is linked to nazi germany and facism, but at the same time are claiming to be socialists

No, Sinn Fein were set up in 1905, and the present leadership claims an unbroken line from that period.

(That's when their Department of Historical Revisionism isn't concealing eg the avowed anti-Semitism of founder Arthur Griffith on the one hand, or his espousal of a Joint Monarchy for Ireland and Great Britain, on the other.   )

ok tell that to the urban constituents of sf in Dublin and other urban places that support them !

The SF voters of Dublin, is it? I'd certainly tell them all right - if only I could find them!    Perhaps they should get Mary Lou Macdonald to (re-)educate them, seeing as she now has time on her hands!

if grasping at straws was ever introduced as an olympic sport, then youd win gold each time !

Hilarious.

your 'message' is unintelligible if not completly daft !

My message may be "unintelligible" to you, just don't judge the rest of this Board by your own inability to comprehend, reason or acknowldege etc.
As for its being "daft", well maybe it is, but you are the last one who will ever be able to demonstrate it thus, that's for certain.

You are spouting these things, how about you 'PROVE' them from credible sources and not your fantasy island wikipedia !

I have made my case, it is up to others to refute it as they may. I'll also let those others judge for themselves the success (or otherwise) of your efforts in that respect.

I think we all saw your failed attempt to argue against thefact that there was an aparthied system in the north for donkeys years !

Speaking for "all" now, are you?
Strangely I don't see too many of them speaking for you. Indeed, I suspect at least some may actually be highly embarrassed by your posts and wish you'd stop.
But if I'm wrong, no doubt they'll all ride to your rescue, just like a faithful, ahem, "cavalry" always does...

Must tear you up inside !

Yeah, that's me: so torn up I can hardly type...

[Evil Genius]

What were you grandparents circumstances that may have brought them into with my Great Uncle??  It wasn't them who burnt down his house in the 20s was it?!?!?  I'm very proud of everything he did in his life

Both my maternal grandparents and their families were all from what is now the Republic. Included in their numbers were some who were intimidated into going North (although others stayed, where their decendants live to this day). Also included amongst them were a couple (or more) RIC men, one of whom at least I know to have been the target of an attempted assassination attempt by (presumably) the IRA, as well as general intimidation etc
To the best of my knowledge, none of my relations ever burnt your Great Uncle's house down (or anyone elses, for that matter), but if they did, then I hope you don't still hold anything against me for it!

Meanwhile, some of my Free State-based ancestors also volunteered to fight in WWII, in common cause with your Great Uncle. Insofar as one may ever claim any sort of "credit" for the deeds of ancestors long-since dead, then I am proud of their efforts, just as you are with your forebears.

As for the Shinners, it's a bit of a leap to say that by remembering ~Russell  they're trying to re-write history (imo).

If you go onto An Phoblacht's website and do a search for "Sean Russell", it brings up 1,621 entries. Strangely enough, I couldn't bring myself to read all of them(!), but a quick browse through the first few contained no reference to his activities in Nazi Germany or the circumstances of his death etc, only this brief reference:
"Veteran of the 1916 Rising and former IRA Chief of Staff during the early 1940s, Seán Russell has long been a figure of controversy within Irish republicanism for a number of reasons. These included his decision to launch an armed campaign in Britain during the Second World War and his attempt to acquire arms from Germany. However, Russell was not a fascist, nor did the IRA of that time support the Nazi regime. Indeed, under Russell's direction, the IRA was in contact with numerous foreign agencies, including the Soviet Union and IRA supporters in the USA, for the purpose of acquiring arms"
http://www.anphoblacht.com/news/detail/7983

If that is not "sugar-coating the pill", I don't know what is...

BTW will you be supporting the Saffrons on the 19th??

Assuming that is a reference to the Antrim Gaelic football team, then I'm afraid I'm otherwise engaged, er, rearranging my sock-drawer that afternoon...

[red hander]

From the Detroit-based National Socialist Movement

The (recent) furore over Prince Harry of England donning Nazi uniform is astonishing.  There has always been a close association between the Royal Family and the Nazi Party.

The Queen's husband, Prince Philip was trained in the Hitler Youth curriculum, Nordic and Aryan myth, and eugenics.  His four brothers-in-law, with whom he lived, were all German who all became high-ranking figures in the Nazi Party.

Philip was the only boy in the family and his four sisters were considerably older than he "more like aunts than sisters" as one biographer put it. Philip lived with his sisters and their husbands because his parents had a "difficult" home life. His four brothers-in-law were all German and all became high-ranking figures in the Nazi Party.

Through the influence of his sister, Theodora, young Philip was sent to a German school near Lake Constantine that had been founded by her father-in-law, Max von Baden, and his longtime personal secretary, Kurt Hahn. Though half-Jewish, Hahn was an early supporter of the Nazi Party, and the school was a hotbed of Hitler Youth activity, Nordic and Aryan myth, and eugenics.

Philip's sister Margarita married a Czech-Austrian prince named Gottfried von Hohenlohe-Langenburg, a great-grandson of England's Queen Victoria; Theodora married Berthold, the Margrave of Baden; Cecelia to Georg Donatus, Grand Duke of Hesse-by-Rhine, also a great-grandson of Victoria; and Sophie to Prince Christoph of Hesse.

By 1935 Prince Christoph was chief of the Forschungsamt (directorate of scientific research), a special intelligence operation run by Hermann Göring, and he was also Standartenführer (colonel) of the SS on Heinrich Himmler's personal staff.

The Forschungsamt used electronic intelligence-gathering methods to police the Nazi Party, while working with the Gestapo against the Catholic Church and the Jews.

The son of Sophie and Prince Christoph was named Karl Adolf after Hitler and Prince Philip afterwards took a keen educational interest in his nephew

Prince Christoph's brother, Philip of Hesse, married a daughter of the King of Italy, and became the official liaison between the Nazi and Fascist regimes.

Philip's sister Cecilia and her husband Georg Donatus, hereditary grand duke of Hesse-by-Rhine, died in 1937 when the plane they were flying to London in crashed. It was a Junkers belonging to Hermann Göring.

According to Newsweek (April 5, 1976) it was known that Prince Bernhard was a member of a special SS intelligence unit in IG Farben and this had originally been pointed out in testimony at the Nuremberg trials.

Bernhard resigned from the SS, in 1937, when he married the future Queen Juliana of the Netherlands. Adolf Hitler forwarded a congratulatory message though Bernhard, who became a naturalised Dutchman.

Philip and Bernhard remained not just distant relatives but close friends and in October, 1961, founded the World Wildlife Fund.

In the Queen's family her Uncle, the former King Edward VIII, had considerable Nazi sympathies as did his mistress and later wife, Wallis Simpson.

Edward's and Wallis' Nazi sympathies were, in part, responsible for him being forced off the throne although the version the public got was that Wallis, as a twice divorced American, would be an unsuitable wife for a King.

In 1945 MI5 officer Anthony Blunt was sent to Germany as a personal emissary of King George VI to retrieve papers written between the Duke of Windsor and Nazi officials that, had they been made public, would probably have destroyed the Royal family.

Many years' later it was revealed that Anthony Blunt was a Soviet spy. He was enabled for many years to maintain his position as survey of the Queen's pictures because of his implied threat to tell all the Nazi secrets of the Duke of Windsor if he were sacked.

"Wallis Simpson, the Nazi minister, the telltale monk and an FBI plot US papers shed light on efforts to spy on fascist sympathizers."

I dunno, 1 statue against a lifetime of paying taxes to keep those parasites in the comfort they're accustomed to? Mmmmmmmmmmmm

Good Grief! I get slated for citing Wikipedia, yet you quote* this crowd of loons in Detroit calling themselves "the Nationalist Socialist Movement", without a cheep out of "the usual suspects".
http://www.timesreporter.com/homepage/x1518884444/National-Socialist-Movement-holds-rally-on-Phila-Public-Square


Then when I actually get round to browsing through the trash in the actual article you cite, it has precisely nothing to do with the murky relationship between Sinn Fein and the Nazis, but instead is an exercise by you in "whataboutery" of the crassest kind.

If you really want to explore any relationship between the British Royal Family and the Nazis, then why don't you start a separate thread? That way you won't be clogging up this one with utter irrelevancies...  no wait, that can't have been your intention in the first place? Can it? 

On second thoughts, maybe you'd be better off rubbing some Brasso into that neck of yours...

* - No actual link, btw 

Just pointing out that the scum of the NSM were claiming their own.  Some would argue that Russell's links with the Nazis are "utterly irrelevent" too in context of the times he was living in ... Never hear of the Republican refrain of "England's enemy is Ireland's friend"?  Your shit-stirring over Russell is pathetic ... and if you want to get into 'holocausts' and their perpetrators, for Nazis and the Jews read England and the famine

[Evil Genius]

Wow! So Nazism wasn't really any worse than Communism, then?

I know which ideology murdered more people. You can argue that you shouldn't reduce these things to crude head counts but I'd say it's a more objective measure for evil than, well, whatever it is that you use.

No, I don't argue for reducing the assessment of evil down to a crude head count of murder victims - even though as a Unionist from NI, such an exercise would actually "vindicate" my opposition to Republicanism (i.e. Republican terrorists having killed by far the greatest number during The Troubles of any of the various armed Groups involved).

Incidentally, I'm not arguing that Seán Russell was one of the good guys.

Good. My gripe is with Sinn Fein, who are arguing that he was "one of the good guys".

But if you're going to condemn him because of the actions of his allies, I'd expect you to hold others to the same standard.

In 1939, the UK faced a clear choice between:
1. An alliance with Nazi Germany/Fascist Italy and (later) Imperial Japan; or
2. An alliance with France/Poland and (later) the USSR and USA; or
3. An offer of Neutrality/Non-Aggressiomn from Hitler, on the basis that he would allow Britain to retain its overseas Empire unaffected, on condition that Britain gave him a free hand to carve out an empire of his own for Germany in continental Europe (where the UK had no territory of its own, btw).

I will stand up proudly for the choice which my country eventually made and stood by, even when isolated and alone.

I have no time for those who pusillanimously chose Neturality, still less those who sought to ally themselves with the Fascists.

And worst of all are those who sided with the Fascists, and who now try to deny it, all the while making gratuitous Nazi slurs etc against those who were actually engaged in a life-or-death struggle against  Fascism...

[Evil Genius]

Just pointing out that the scum of the NSM were claiming their own.

No, you were pointing out an attempt  by those NSM scumbags to claim etc: there is a world of difference.
And in any case, even if it were true, how does it absolve the Shinners from their collaboration with the Nazis during WWII?

Some would argue that Russell's links with the Nazis are "utterly irrelevent" too in context of the times he was living in ...

"Some" might indeed try to argue that Russell's Nazi collaboration is "irrelevant" (that's not when they're trying to deny it ever even happened in the first place). However, in raising this statue to the man as a great "hero", the National Graves Association is paying tribute to his record. I do not see how it is at all irrelevant that his record also included active and willing collaboration with the Nazis, whose own record included the deaths of thousands of Irish men, women and children, including hundreds of civilians in the Belfast Blitz.
And that's before we even get to 6 million murdered Jews, whose numbers would undoubtedly have been swollen by the Jewish population of Ireland, had Hitler succeeded in his aim of conquering Europe. 

Never hear of the Republican refrain of "England's enemy is Ireland's friend"?

Indeed I have, and insofar as it is used as an excuse by Republicans to ally themselves with Nazism, then it disgusts me.

Your shit-stirring over Russell is pathetic

Truth hurting, is it?

and if you want to get into 'holocausts' and their perpetrators, for Nazis and the Jews read England and the famine

So are you saying that Russell and SF/IRA were justified in helping Hitler exterminate the Jews etc, because of what had occurred 100 years earlier in Ireland during the Famine?
Worse than pathetic...

[deiseach]

No, I don't argue for reducing the assessment of evil down to a crude head count of murder victims - even though as a Unionist from NI, such an exercise would actually "vindicate" my opposition to Republicanism (i.e. Republican terrorists having killed by far the greatest number during The Troubles of any of the various armed Groups involved).

Then what measure do you use to determine that Nazism was worse than Communism?

[red hander]

'So are you saying that Russell and SF/IRA were justified in helping Hitler exterminate the Jews etc, because of what had occurred 100 years earlier in Ireland during the Famine?
Worse than pathetic... '

Er, no ... Nowhere in anything I wrote could anyone with an ounce of sense even suggest that is what I was saying (or what I implied) ... and for you to come up with such a conclusion makes me actually worry about your mental state. 

BTW, oh font of all knowledge, show me the evidence Sean Russell helped to exterminate the Jews ... Was he a member of the SS Totenkopf, per chance?  Perhaps a foot soldier in one of the einsatzgruppen, perhaps? Driver of a mobile gas van, eh?  One of the guys who poured Zyklon B into the death chambers at Auswitz, mmm?

Or maybe, like Winston Churchill, he refused to bomb the death camps or the railway lines leading to them even though he was fully aware of what was going on in those camps and what purpose those railway lines served

[pintsofguinness]

I can't be bothered reading the whole thread but I'm not sure what EG's point is. Of course the IRA are going to be sympathtic to the Germans as they had a common enemy, no one realised until well into the war that Hitler was exterminating the Jews.  In fact I thought the Allies didn't know until they had the war nearly won and started to come across the camps.

Btw, before you try and paint a picture of the mighty empire going to the Jews rescue, Britain couldnt give a shit what was happening the Jews or any other persecuted miniority nor did the US.  Both were only concerned about themselves and their own security.

And why do you post every little piece of bullshit on this board, whether it be this or something about what Gerry Adams was singing, I think we all see you for the WUM you are now.  You're lucky the moderators on this board are more tolerant than those on owc though I expect if it was one of us making nonsense threads for no reason other than to wind people up we'd be banned. 

[stew]

Are we to assume that you see some sort of equivalence between the Allies and the Axis forces during WWII, then?

Absolutely. If you can't see a comparision between Germany and the Soviet Union you really need to read a bit more.

Wow! So Nazism wasn't really any worse than Communism, then?

I may well be advised to read some more, but I sincerely hope it never covers whatever sh1te you've been reading...

19 million russians died in the early 20th century under communist rule, Hitler killed many millions and both wwere major players in the second world war and killed many millions of people each, there is nothing good about either mode of government, they are dictatorships and dictatorships are repugnant no matter the politics.

[Keyser soze]

EG spot on with your observations as usual.

Perhaps though [in order to stop you descending into Fearonesque behaviour of opening multiple threads on a single theme] you should change the thread title to include ALL the modern-day parties who honour statues of Irish gunrunners who imported guns from Germany in order to undermine the government of the day and at a period when it was clear that a war was inevitable. Then again I suppose the Kaiser wasn't that bad an aul spud.

If you cannot follow my logic I'll give you a couple of clues. The statue in question sits on the driveway to Stormont. It wasn't unveiled by Sinn Fein.