Martin O'Neill on what it means to be Irish

[Leo]

. He is also reported as saying that he was booed when leading out the home team at Windsor Park (although no direct quote was given). We already know (courtesy of Evil Genius) that this was because a) he wasn't from Belfast, b) he wasn't playing for Manchester United or c) he wasn't from a famous 'footballing' family like the McCreerys.

As captain of NI from his partiular background he was  a credit to his upbringing and rose above this shoddy bigotry, as did his wonderful team-mate Jennings, from a similar nationalist- GAA family background. Two giants among the bigots of both sides.

[tbrick18]

MON is a legend....
Our PP spent a long number of years in Kilrea and came to befreind MON. When he came to our parish he still had a lot of contact with O'Neill when he was at Celtic. He used to get signed jersey's from him on a regular basis for charity draws and club fund raising events.
When our PP passed away a few years ago O'Neill came to the funeral. I think there was almost as big a turnout to see him as there was patrons at the funeral.
I always thought it said a lot about the man when he kept such close contact with his roots having been away for such a long time and then to make the effort to attend the funeral.
He seems a real gentleman who says what he thinks....and he manages THE MIGHTY VILLA!

[Evil Genius]

He did indeed. He is also reported as saying that he was booed when leading out the home team at Windsor Park (although no direct quote was given). We already know (courtesy of Evil Genius) that this was because a) he wasn't from Belfast, b) he wasn't playing for Manchester United or c) he wasn't from a famous 'footballing' family like the McCreerys.

Once again you distort and misrepresent what I posted. MON has in the past commented that he wasn't so popular with (a section of) the NI supporters e.g. as Sammy McIlroy. I accept that one of the reasons for this may have been his Nationalist background etc.
But I suggest that an additional reason may be that Sammy Mac played for MU - by far the most popular club team in NI; also, because he (and the McCreerys) are local boys, and with soccer being a predominantly urban game in NI and the majority of the crowd being from Belfast, such a reaction is no more remarkable e.g. than a Glentoran player (Jimmy Cleary?) getting a bigger cheer than, say, a Portadown player (Gary Hamilton?)

And that is actually a separate (though related) issue to his reported comments about being booed (for being Catholic etc). Now if he says that happened, then I accept that it did, and condemn it unreservedly. It must have been very uncomfortable for him.
However, I am also entitled to add that having been at many of MON's early games (inc. his debut), it can only have been a small minority of the crowd, and sporadically at that, who engaged in this practice, for I simply do not recall it happening, which I am sure I would have, had it been excessive or protracted, or maintained over a long period of time..
It is notable, too, in the RTE radio address that he mentioned how he "joked" to Sammy Mac about being "booed onto the pitch" (as well as off it). Without in any way wishing to downplay the seriousness of any such booing, or MON's reaction to it, but it may be that there is also an element of this being a good quip, from someone who is known for having a sharp sense of humour.

Moreover, it is perhaps wise not to rely too much on the "memory" of a former footballer. I note that amongst MON's other comments in the radio address, he mentioned that he was the first Catholic to captain NI. I'm afraid he is quite wrong about that. I have checked the list and he is not even close.
I know it is never safe to go purely by name alone, but from the pre-partition (Ireland) international teams, it is likely/possible that James Christopher Fitzpatrick and George Sheehan, both Dubliners who played for Bohemians, may have been Catholic. Patrick Joseph O'Connell, who was born and played junior football in Dublin before joining Belfast Celtic undoubtedly was. Another may have been Wexford-born William Lacey, of Shelbourne, who later represented the Irish Free State.

More pertinently, there have been a number of post-partition captains before MON whom I know to have been Catholic. The first of these was Peter Doherty in the 1930's, who was also accorded the honour of being NI's first ever Manager (when responsibility for picking the team passed from a Board of Selectors). He was followed by Jackie Vernon, a Falls Road butcher and Belfast Celtic player, who was so honoured even after having first played twice for Eire in 1946! Moreover, Vernon  was the only NI player on the "GB" team which played the Rest of Europe in a benefit match for FIFA in Glasgow, in 1947.
And Dublin-born Johnny Carey also captained "Ireland" (i.e. NI) in the 40's. despite his having previously captained Eire on a number of occasions. Also in the 40's and 50's, Southerner Con Martin (father of Mick), was also picked to captain "Ireland" (NI), despite his, too, having previously captained Eire.

Still, no doubt "Martin O'Neill was the first Catholic NI captain" may be added to the rest of the list of myths about the team...

Anyhow, I am still proud of Martin, for whatever his background or personal beliefs etc, he still always gave 100% when wearing the green shirt, including being one of our finest ever captains. And I am certain that that opinion is shared by the overwhelming majority of NI fans.

P.S. Of the last 12 NI captains, it looks as though 5 of those have been Catholic, although I accept that soccer has a long way to go in that respect, compared with Gaelic "Sam Maguire was a Prod" Football...

[lynchbhoy]

 
so very shortly its gonna be said that Neil lennon's memory might't serve him correctly on the booing and death threats
oh FFS

[Evil Genius]

so very shortly its gonna be said that Neil lennon's memory might't serve him correctly on the booing and death threats
oh FFS

I was commenting on Martin O'Neill, who is the subject of this thread. If you feel that any of my comments on him were incorrect or unreliable, then please tell me where.

What's that? The sound of silence? 

P.S. If you want to discuss Neil Lennon, then by all means knock yourself out. Perhaps you could start a thread entitled "Whataboutery"?   

[full back]

What's that? The sound of silence? 

Much like yours on the thread about owcers banning people

[lynchbhoy]

so very shortly its gonna be said that Neil lennon's memory might't serve him correctly on the booing and death threats
oh FFS

I was commenting on Martin O'Neill, who is the subject of this thread. If you feel that any of my comments on him were incorrect or unreliable, then please tell me where.

What's that? The sound of silence? 

P.S. If you want to discuss Neil Lennon, then by all means knock yourself out. Perhaps you could start a thread entitled "Whataboutery"?   

its called sense of humour, it was tongue in cheek suggesting that as you have allready commented on MON's memory letting him down regarding him being the first Catholic captain of ni soccer team (most likely as he was told this was the case and that his knowledge of ni soccer history is as vague as the rest of us) followed a piece on booing and sectarian behaviour towards Catholic/nationalist players - therefore implying that all this booing and sectarian behaviour/death threats etc etc are not correctly remembered and in fact are in some way 'distorted or made up' by the incorrect 'memory of a former footballer'

MON might have been incorrect about factual info regarding on his tenure being captain turning out not to be the initial taig  todo so, but you wont be able to whitewash the facts of booing or sectarian behaviour or death threats as some sort or incorrect memory recollection

therefore I brought up the neil lennon scenario in case you decided to imply he had alzheimers !

pity you and your cohorts wouldnt learn 'the sound of silence' for windsor park and rid the world of yet more sectarianism !

[Leo]

He was booed onto the field by NI supporters at many of his early games - I was there to witness it along with the "whimsical" Dirty Fenian B*****d sung each time he touched the ball. MON rose above this, ignored it and it eventually petered out because of that and because of his superb play and captaincy.

His recall as the first Cathoic captain may be inaccurate although I doubt if he gave consideration to any teams outside of his personal recall and certainly not from before partition or around the time of the split by FAI.

His point was that as an Irishman he was proud to captain the NI team and considered it no less a part of his Irishness. Unionists are Irish too, you know. They want to maintain the union between their part of Ireland (as they perceive it) and Britain and if there were no unionist-mineded Irish people then there would be no unionist movement, a simple fact of life that seeems to escape bigots from both sides. Off point, I know, but part of the picture.

[T Fearon]

I well remember the time O'Neill was appointed captain and the furore of the majority of North of Ireland fans that he was preferred to the "obvious Ulster Working Class Prod" choice, which was Sammy Mc Ilroy. The fact that Man Ure were crap at the time and O'Neill had won League Championship, League Cup and European Cup medals with Notts Forest did not influence the Windsor Boo Boys whatsoever. In fact I attended the North of Ireland V Scotland World Cup qualifier in 1981 at Windsor Park and witnessed people beside me accusing him of not giving 100% though I didn't witness any overt sectarian abuse. I think the reason for the discontent though was obviously O'Neill's background.

Interesting also that in the recently published book about Derek Dougan, O'Neill in his foreword alludes to the All Ireland v Brazil game in 1973 and acknowledges that Dougan was never selected by the North of Ireland again on account of his part in organising this game.

PS I wonder if anyone else claim (as I can) to have seen O'Neill play live in the flesh for Distillery, Notts Forest, Notts County, Norwich and Man City, as well as for the North of Ireland. I also saw him at Clones the day Down luckily defeated Armagh in the 1981 Ulster Final when his brother Gerry of course was manager of the Armagh team

[Chrisowc]

witnessed people beside me accusing him of not giving 100% though I didn't witness any overt sectarian abuse. I think the reason for the discontent though was obviously O'Neill's background.

[haranguerer]

PS I wonder if anyone else claim (as I can) to have seen O'Neill play live in the flesh for Distillery, Notts Forest, Notts County, Norwich and Man City, as well as for the North of Ireland. I also saw him at Clones the day Down luckily defeated Armagh in the 1981 Ulster Final when his brother Gerry of course was manager of the Armagh team

Yep, I won a competition for a 'martin o neill ticket', and I didnt see you at any of them you bluffer 

[magickingdom]

mon carries himself like a man comfortable in his skin with nothing to prove to anyone. i like his point that he can play for ni and it doesnt make him any less irish (obviously true but i like that he makes it). if he becomes man u manager i will have to ditch my long held hatred/bigotry towards them and start supporting them. that will be tough but it will be done

[stiffler]

He did indeed. He is also reported as saying that he was booed when leading out the home team at Windsor Park (although no direct quote was given). We already know (courtesy of Evil Genius) that this was because a) he wasn't from Belfast, b) he wasn't playing for Manchester United or c) he wasn't from a famous 'footballing' family like the McCreerys.

Once again you distort and misrepresent what I posted. MON has in the past commented that he wasn't so popular with (a section of) the NI supporters e.g. as Sammy McIlroy. I accept that one of the reasons for this may have been his Nationalist background etc.
But I suggest that an additional reason may be that Sammy Mac played for MU - by far the most popular club team in NI; also, because he (and the McCreerys) are local boys, and with soccer being a predominantly urban game in NI and the majority of the crowd being from Belfast, such a reaction is no more remarkable e.g. than a Glentoran player (Jimmy Cleary?) getting a bigger cheer than, say, a Portadown player (Gary Hamilton?)

Source??

[Bogball XV]

More pertinently, there have been a number of post-partition captains before MON whom I know to have been Catholic. The first of these was Peter Doherty in the 1930's, who was also accorded the honour of being NI's first ever Manager (when responsibility for picking the team passed from a Board of Selectors). He was followed by Jackie Vernon, a Falls Road butcher and Belfast Celtic player, who was so honoured even after having first played twice for Eire in 1946! Moreover, Vernon  was the only NI player on the "GB" team which played the Rest of Europe in a benefit match for FIFA in Glasgow, in 1947.
And Dublin-born Johnny Carey also captained "Ireland" (i.e. NI) in the 40's. despite his having previously captained Eire on a number of occasions. Also in the 40's and 50's, Southerner Con Martin (father of Mick), was also picked to captain "Ireland" (NI), despite his, too, having previously captained Eire.

You wouldn't mind explaining this again for me EG, cos I frankly am not getting this.  Bear in mind that I don't know when the north and south stopped playing together, but can you tell me who the first catholic captain of the northern ireland soccer team was, this team representing only the 6 counties now known as Northern Ireland.

[ONeill]

She sounded lost to the North with not a single reference to her roots.  I know it may seem niaive but I have become somewhat disillusioned as I am a great believer in remembering where you came from.

Says the Tyrone man.