USFC Qtr Final - Armagh V Down - Athletic Grounds 28th May 7:30pm

[orchard 8195]

There's a serious lack of debate amongst Down fans here as to there own team's performance. Are there no Down posters or are they in hiding?

I am happy to debate what happened top Down, sadly for me I think we can only debate what happened to Down by first talking about what happened to Armagh

The only important thing is that we were well beaten by a much better team on the night. Armagh destroyed, no, obliterated our midfield. They at one stage retrieved 10 kickouts in a row. In every area they were probably better, but it was at least a close contest. But midfield turned it from close, to almost run-away

Saturday had several problems, player selection was certainly one. Anton McCardle should not have been brought on. Laverty is a player for fast dry pitches, where he can use his pace. Dan McCartan should have been taken off and replaced, as he was having an off-day.

While Gordon should not be moved to midfield due to his effectiveness at fullback, he certainly should have a more fluid role, moving to midfield to help out when things are going badly. If he had gone there for the middle of 2nd half we would have stopped the Armagh momentum and probably have edged the game. While our attack is fluid, our defence is rigid, players get given a location to play in and stay there. But in attack the forwards alternate position for large periods of the game.

But lets face it the biggest problem was that only one team came with the burning desire to win. Armagh fought harder for possession.

All tactical discussions aside what Down need is simply to enter games with passionate determination, we have the skill in our team to then beat most teams. I'm not a believer in the old adage that sometimes a defeat is a good thing.  But hopefully Armagh have taught us a lesson in desire. If the lads can learn from it and approach their games from now on with that hunger then we will not be toop far away

Of course (and I'm not saying this is fair excuse, or it is reasonable) a dry pitch would have made, and will make, a hell of a difference to this Down team. Blah blah blah, yeah I know it probably sounds boring and you're probably thinking it's the same old tired excuse but in over twenty years I have never seen Down play well in the rain. Yeah I know it's a pathetic excuse but I can only say what I see. You will only see if we are any good on a dry hard pitch

Sorry i know its got nothing to do with this present team but did down not win their last All-Ireland on a horribly wet day in 94?

[borderfox]

I saw Down beat Donegal on an atrociously wet day in 95 or 96 (Ulster QF)
Down absolutely battered Monaghan this year in the league on a wet dreary night as well.

[PAULD123]

Can't remember the Donegal game. was it 1996 when we beat them by 2 points in the preliminary? As for the Monaghan game, we didn't so much play well as Monaghan were atrocious. Only two Monaghan forwards scored and they didn't get their first point from play until the 33rd minute.  There is the odd rare victory in bad weather but generally we have not done well in the rain

Okay if the opposition are awful then yeah fair enough we do have a good chance of playing decent. Perhaps more accurately I should have said that Down rarely play well in the rain and consistently struggle more in those conditions than teams of comparable ability.

In 1994 we were 1-11 to 0-8 points up round about the time it started to rain heavily. Dublin then came roaring back and we were holding on in the end after having survived saving a penalty. So for that game I would say we won it in the dry but nearly lost it in the wet.

[borderfox]

Yes maybe the Donegal game was a preliminary. That was a hard tight match in the pouring rain.
Last years All Ireland final was a wet enough day and I thought Down played some exceptional football that day only to lose by the minimum to a far more experienced team.(allied to the fact that tactics let you down in the last 25 minutes that day).

I suppose if you really believe Down aren't as good in the rain you could just hope for a good summer weather wise with little or no rain on Saturday/Sundays from now until September, So your fast nippy little forwards can run riot with a dry ball.

[Mourne Rover]

Sadly, it is true that Down have seldom played decent championship football in wet conditions over the last couple of decades. We beat Donegal during a downpour at Clones in 96, but they had a man sent over in the first minute, their goalkeeper was judged to have carried a harmless ball over his line and we were hanging on by a point at the end. The only other success in really bad weather I can recall was against Laois at Newry in the 09 qualifiers.  Perhaps that will all change in this year's open draw.

[PAULD123]

Yes maybe the Donegal game was a preliminary. That was a hard tight match in the pouring rain.
Last years All Ireland final was a wet enough day and I thought Down played some exceptional football that day only to lose by the minimum to a far more experienced team.(allied to the fact that tactics let you down in the last 25 minutes that day).

I suppose if you really believe Down aren't as good in the rain you could just hope for a good summer weather wise with little or no rain on Saturday/Sundays from now until September, So your fast nippy little forwards can run riot with a dry ball.

I know you were being sarcastic but sadly that is genuinely what I hope for!!!! It deosn't make me happy but it's true.

As for last year we had a 5 point lead in the relatively dry first half and a 4 point lead before it started pouring. After that we were outscored 7 points to 1 in the lashing rain. Sure we rallied but couldn't break their line often enough and certainly not as often as I believe (just my opinion) we would have done if Hughes, McComiskey and Murtagh had been able to use their pace to best effect.

[John o connor]

I think if any real Down fan was at Saturdays match you would have to hold your hands up and admit we were soundly beaten by the better team , on the night . Armagh were hungrier , more decisive , and in the closing stages looked marginally fitter ( probably due to the fact the were leading and had their tails up ) . The management has come in for some flack and dan mc cartan has been at the center of most of the derision , I honestly think wee James did nt want to risk putting a rookie ( Gerard mc Cartan on J Clarke from the start it could destroy a young fellas confidence in a big game like that to receive a roasting . It was crazy expecting Dan to mark him, he's not quick enough but unlike a lot of posters on here I think  he can do a job for us if paired up with the correct player ( he didn't let us down last year on the run to the final and a lot of people would do well to remember that )  however this  decision gave us a mountain to climb . Once C Maginn came on we looked a  far more balanced unit and started to claw our way back .I also found the decision to start with John Clarke a big risk given the man has hardly played all year but maybe playing benny out the field a bit James wanted a bit of a physical presence on the square , I thought we should have started with murtagh though . It's clear midfield is the problem area , we could rectify this by moving big dan out but IMO that would create an even bigger prob in FB , the best hope is we get Ambrose back soon !! All things considered if you look at last year we struggled past Donegal , lost to Tyrone and crawled past 2 qualifier teams it was nt until Sligo that everything clicked and the floodgates opened . If James can get things calmed down we get Dee Raff , Conor Garvey & Ambrose back as well as benny, maginn and a few others fully fit we will be grand ; these same lads did us proud last year and can again this year and I'd love another crack at Armagh later in the year once we get into our stride

[whitegoodman]

I think if any real Down fan was at Saturdays match you would have to hold your hands up and admit we were soundly beaten by the better team , on the night . Armagh were hungrier , more decisive , and in the closing stages looked marginally fitter ( probably due to the fact the were leading and had their tails up ) . The management has come in for some flack and dan mc cartan has been at the center of most of the derision , I honestly think wee James did nt want to risk putting a rookie ( Gerard mc Cartan on J Clarke from the start it could destroy a young fellas confidence in a big game like that to receive a roasting . It was crazy expecting Dan to mark him, he's not quick enough but unlike a lot of posters on here I think  he can do a job for us if paired up with the correct player ( he didn't let us down last year on the run to the final and a lot of people would do well to remember that )  however this  decision gave us a mountain to climb . Once C Maginn came on we looked a  far more balanced unit and started to claw our way back .I also found the decision to start with John Clarke a big risk given the man has hardly played all year but maybe playing benny out the field a bit James wanted a bit of a physical presence on the square , I thought we should have started with murtagh though . It's clear midfield is the problem area , we could rectify this by moving big dan out but IMO that would create an even bigger prob in FB , the best hope is we get Ambrose back soon !! All things considered if you look at last year we struggled past Donegal , lost to Tyrone and crawled past 2 qualifier teams it was nt until Sligo that everything clicked and the floodgates opened . If James can get things calmed down we get Dee Raff , Conor Garvey & Ambrose back as well as benny, maginn and a few others fully fit we will be grand ; these same lads did us proud last year and can again this year and I'd love another crack at Armagh later in the year once we get into our stride

[/quote

I would agree with this completely

[Orangemac]

Sadly, it is true that Down have seldom played decent championship football in wet conditions over the last couple of decades. We beat Donegal during a downpour at Clones in 96, but they had a man sent over in the first minute, their goalkeeper was judged to have carried a harmless ball over his line and we were hanging on by a point at the end. The only other success in really bad weather I can recall was against Laois at Newry in the 09 qualifiers.  Perhaps that will all change in this year's open draw.

This must be due to the tropical climate east of the Clanrye, whereas we are used to the monsoon conditions west of the river.

Didn't Down beat Armagh in the 1st round in 1991 in a rainstorm of biblical proportions? Remember Jim McConville missing an open goal which may have changed the result.

[PAULD123]

Sadly, it is true that Down have seldom played decent championship football in wet conditions over the last couple of decades. We beat Donegal during a downpour at Clones in 96, but they had a man sent over in the first minute, their goalkeeper was judged to have carried a harmless ball over his line and we were hanging on by a point at the end. The only other success in really bad weather I can recall was against Laois at Newry in the 09 qualifiers.  Perhaps that will all change in this year's open draw.

This must be due to the tropical climate east of the Clanrye, whereas we are used to the monsoon conditions west of the river.

Didn't Down beat Armagh in the 1st round in 1991 in a rainstorm of biblical proportions? Remember Jim McConville missing an open goal which may have changed the result.

yeah we won that game, I didn't say we never win in the rain, I said we never (revised to rarely) play well in wet conditions. We probably should have lost in 1991, certainly we played very bad football, both teams did. In fact as we were coming out my uncle remarked to me with a sarcastic chuckle - "Well, we didn't see any All-Ireland champions today"

By the way I agree with everything John O'Connor said, except that I think we shouldn't get hung up on rigid defenisive positions, If midfield is struggling Gordon should be able to temporarily step forward to assist. It isn't required that he make a permenant switch, just be able to help out in the periods where it's going against us.

[Hardy]

It looks like I'll have to consider the going now for football bets. Can the Down lads be a bit more specific - firm, good-to-firm, good? Minimum reading on the going stick would be even better.

[Stevie Nicks]

Next fundraising campaign in Down should be to raise money to put a roof on Parc Esler (aka Millenium stadium). Never heard such rubbish

[haveaharp]

It looks like I'll have to consider the going now for football bets. Can the Down lads be a bit more specific - firm, good-to-firm, good? Minimum reading on the going stick would be even better.

How about Soft ? (in the head)

[drici]

James McCartan has denied that his Down team can only play in fair weather with a dry sod underneath.

'There was an Armagh family on holidays in the next caravan and they used to put bread on me roof at night so the seagulls would come clattering down on the tin at dawn and wake me up.

One day it lashed so heavy it even scared the seagulls off.

We went to training in it and the boys were scoring from all angles in their wet gear.

I made them an All Day Breakfast In A Tin each afterwards to celebrate.'

Down now enter the Qualifiers in the All Ireland Series. The First Round is due to be played on June 25th.

[Brick Tamlin]

Again Drici, a brutal attempt at humour.