The world's best sportsman to return from injury?

[Minder]

Fair play to Keane for coming back from that injury,i thought he would have packed it in half way through his rehab when the going got tough. . . . . . .

[new devil]

I am glad we agree that he was the best midfielder in the world to come back fron injury..weather he meant to injure halland or not is irrelevant

[Gabriel_Hurl]

so he's a tr*mp then?

[new devil]

Halland sure is for standing over Roy and gloating..glad your starting to see sense Gab

[Gabriel_Hurl]

never trust anyone with one of theose funny symbols over a letter in their name



i meant Keane btw

[Puckoon]

Im no celtic fan - but Henrik Larsson was the man.

[carribbear]

I hear a lot of Celtic players play it 

As a hobby aside their true sport. what's your point?

[Gabriel_Hurl]

Who's that on the left?



looks like he plays uni-hoc as well

[corn02]

Corn

You think fitness and stamina does not come into golf?

You are looking at it from our view point, which is walking around an 18-hole course.

A pro golfer would spend as much time in the gym as a Premiership player. An average non-tournamnet day for a golfer would probably include about 3 hours in the gym and about six hours practicing.

Read some of the autobiographies and come back to me and tell me there is not athleticism in it.

Sorry Corn - Ive no time to read the autobiographies - but I will say this, if a pro golfer spends as much time in the gym as a premiership player - how do you explain the montys, the miklesons, the jiminez's, the cabrerras of the PGA TOUR? Most pga events start with a pro am, and most nights there are relatively big dinners after the pro am, the cut, and the final round. Then its back on a plane to home for a few days and all over again.

Im not saying its not a tough schedule - but dont think for a second you can point to Phil Mikleson at me and say - hes an athlete.

Just an alternative opinion.

Yeah well I'll have to disagree with you then, fair enough. Re: the players you mentioned, all pre-Woods era and there is no doubt Woods has shaken up this aspect of the game and rebranded it.

Mickelson has drastically improved his gym work.

Also if you think they spend most nights at dinners, that is flawed logic.

Ah come on Corn, they all have had success since Woods has come on the scene , some a lot more than before this time , and i notice you are the only one mentioning Daly.
You seem to think we are talking about extremes, im not saying that they dont use the gym at all but just pulling you up on the comment that generally golfers spend 3 hours in a gym every day. I have given you a list of exceptional golfers ( plus Big Ernie) but you come back and say there will always be exceptions ( and mention footballers , some of who are retired 15-20 years, why don't you compare them to the golfers of that generation?)

mickleson:

I immediately lost 20, 25 pounds and put on about 10 to 15 more with muscle from lifting, trying to build up stamina doing 45 minutes to an hour and a half of cardio five or six days a week. I've started a new martial arts, a different type of martial art from what I'd been doing."

Have you seen Mickleson lately?

A quote from Harrington sums it up for me.

"In any given week, I will spend 70-plus hours on my golf," he said. "It may not be high-intensity work at times, but including my gym work, it is easily 10 hours a day, seven days a week, and it catches up with you. I know a lot of people work double weeks, but out here when you're not at your peak, it shows up very quickly. That's why you have to take time off. You can't get away with being average."

Sums up what? He says that he spends 70 plus hours but no breakdown of gym work. Of course he practices but so do Dart players but you discount there practice.

I'm actually finding it hard to find schedules. Vijay is known to be in the gym by 6am most mornings. Tiger's the obviosus gymaholic and he really brought the ethic into the game. You listed a few players there, as I said there are exceptions, Daly, Cabrerra, Jiminez, but they were all at the top of the game before Woods came a long. You must not follow it closely if you don't realise that players take a different approach to it now.

You must not follow closely if you think that Mickleson is currently spending time in gym, he is a great golfer but he not in great shape these days.
Caberra is quite open about his lack of fitness and his love of cigars.
Jiminez is never seen without his cigars
I listed several great current players (The above plus Els, Westwood etc)  how can you say they are exceptions?

You listed Clarke (see quote below), but he is the perfect example of someone who bucked up his trends to suit the different manner of the sport.
"I look back over my career and wonder if my lack of discipline in terms of my shape and fitness cost me tournament wins when I was younger, " the Northern Irish golfer admitted. "That's why I decided, three years ago, to get fit before it was too late"  - a quote from Clarke from last week.

Ok you mentioned Garcia's routine, combine that with the four hours he probably spends on the driving range each day and it is fair to say it i  fairly physical.

Clarke being the perfect example? Has his golf improved in the last 3 years?
Why mention the 4 hours garcia spends on the range, do all golfers not do that?

Just because some golfers go to the gym this wouldn't make it an athletic sport, for every Tiger Woods i could give you an Angel Cabrera

That's your quote.

In today's game you are way off to suggest that just some golfers go to the gym. You could not give me a Cabrerra for every Woods. Out of the top 200 in the world, I would imagine 90% plus would do massive gym work combined with practising.

you are doing it again, if can define massive gym work and list your source of the 90% (and tell me that the great players i have listed are doing massive gym work) then you will convince me.
im never doing a reply like this ever again!!!
Can we agree to disagree if you wont admit you are wrong

Ha, no chance am I admitting I am wrong here.  Agree to disagree is the only option but I am still going to have to reply.

Ok from those only Jiminez can really claim to have had much success since Woods arrived on the scene. He has won more tourneys over 40 but the rest have not done better. I mentioned Daly to point out that sometimes people can get away with just having the genius. A quote from his book. "Hey Tiger come and have a pint with me instead of hitting the gym" "Johnif I had your talent I wouldn;t have to hit the gym."

Ok every player spending three hours in a gym every day may have been a bit much but you are writing these players off as not doing gym work. I have given evidence and quotes that Mickelson, Garcia, Clarke have all got a gym-based mindset now, Clarke and Mickeslon adapting it in recent years to suggest that they think the game has shifted that way. I was watching Mickleson on Sunday night actually, didn't look particuarly chubby to me IMHO.

You say about Harrington and his 70-hours, and no I can't produce a specific beakdown, but when he mentions gym work as he does you can assume a sizeable portion of the 7p hours is in the gym. Golfers are notoriously tight-lipped about their training schedules, the pursuit of Woods schedule has been taken on by many a journalist, the specifics have never been found.

I notice you mention Westwood. He has given up drink and here is a report from a newspaper article on Feb 9 (Daily Record)

The world No.12 has spent much of his time in the gym doing gruelling sessions of up to three hours to get fit for the new campaign. He is already reaping the benefits by hitting the ball further than ever.

"I have lost about a stone since Christmas and been on a strict diet as well. I am also throwing myself into the gym because I have seen the difference that has made since I turned 30"

I did about 20 gym sessions in 25 days after Christmas and have noticed a difference in the distance I am hitting the ball.

"I can feel a difference in how quickly I can control my swing too. I seem to be able to control my muscles in my body a bit better.

---

I am surprised you mentioned Els, he has released a book on how to get fit for golf including muscle work etc.
The only ones I mentioned as exceptions were Cabrerra, Jiminez and Daly. Two are well off the radar now, one major aside.

---

You ask how has Clarke's game improved? Well he certainly had a good end to 08 and not a bad start to 09. Regardless of whether or not it has improved does hold much significance, the fact that he sees gym work as an neccesity is the main thing to take from that. His form of the last two years has dropped for obvious reasons too.

You also why mention Garcia, all golfers do four hours? Exactly my point, another four hours of tough training.

It's a part of the game now, A qucik google search on any player on the tour plus gym will bring up information. I would imagine that a tiny minority don;lt indulge in significant gym work.


But agree to disagree as you say. We'll leave it then. 

[The Real Laoislad]

Corn

You think fitness and stamina does not come into golf?

You are looking at it from our view point, which is walking around an 18-hole course.

A pro golfer would spend as much time in the gym as a Premiership player. An average non-tournamnet day for a golfer would probably include about 3 hours in the gym and about six hours practicing.

Read some of the autobiographies and come back to me and tell me there is not athleticism in it.

Sorry Corn - Ive no time to read the autobiographies - but I will say this, if a pro golfer spends as much time in the gym as a premiership player - how do you explain the montys, the miklesons, the jiminez's, the cabrerras of the PGA TOUR? Most pga events start with a pro am, and most nights there are relatively big dinners after the pro am, the cut, and the final round. Then its back on a plane to home for a few days and all over again.

Im not saying its not a tough schedule - but dont think for a second you can point to Phil Mikleson at me and say - hes an athlete.

Just an alternative opinion.

Yeah well I'll have to disagree with you then, fair enough. Re: the players you mentioned, all pre-Woods era and there is no doubt Woods has shaken up this aspect of the game and rebranded it.

Mickelson has drastically improved his gym work.

Also if you think they spend most nights at dinners, that is flawed logic.

Ah come on Corn, they all have had success since Woods has come on the scene , some a lot more than before this time , and i notice you are the only one mentioning Daly.
You seem to think we are talking about extremes, im not saying that they dont use the gym at all but just pulling you up on the comment that generally golfers spend 3 hours in a gym every day. I have given you a list of exceptional golfers ( plus Big Ernie) but you come back and say there will always be exceptions ( and mention footballers , some of who are retired 15-20 years, why don't you compare them to the golfers of that generation?)

mickleson:

I immediately lost 20, 25 pounds and put on about 10 to 15 more with muscle from lifting, trying to build up stamina doing 45 minutes to an hour and a half of cardio five or six days a week. I've started a new martial arts, a different type of martial art from what I'd been doing."

Have you seen Mickleson lately?

A quote from Harrington sums it up for me.

"In any given week, I will spend 70-plus hours on my golf," he said. "It may not be high-intensity work at times, but including my gym work, it is easily 10 hours a day, seven days a week, and it catches up with you. I know a lot of people work double weeks, but out here when you're not at your peak, it shows up very quickly. That's why you have to take time off. You can't get away with being average."

Sums up what? He says that he spends 70 plus hours but no breakdown of gym work. Of course he practices but so do Dart players but you discount there practice.

I'm actually finding it hard to find schedules. Vijay is known to be in the gym by 6am most mornings. Tiger's the obviosus gymaholic and he really brought the ethic into the game. You listed a few players there, as I said there are exceptions, Daly, Cabrerra, Jiminez, but they were all at the top of the game before Woods came a long. You must not follow it closely if you don't realise that players take a different approach to it now.

You must not follow closely if you think that Mickleson is currently spending time in gym, he is a great golfer but he not in great shape these days.
Caberra is quite open about his lack of fitness and his love of cigars.
Jiminez is never seen without his cigars
I listed several great current players (The above plus Els, Westwood etc)  how can you say they are exceptions?

You listed Clarke (see quote below), but he is the perfect example of someone who bucked up his trends to suit the different manner of the sport.
"I look back over my career and wonder if my lack of discipline in terms of my shape and fitness cost me tournament wins when I was younger, " the Northern Irish golfer admitted. "That's why I decided, three years ago, to get fit before it was too late"  - a quote from Clarke from last week.

Ok you mentioned Garcia's routine, combine that with the four hours he probably spends on the driving range each day and it is fair to say it i  fairly physical.

Clarke being the perfect example? Has his golf improved in the last 3 years?
Why mention the 4 hours garcia spends on the range, do all golfers not do that?

Just because some golfers go to the gym this wouldn't make it an athletic sport, for every Tiger Woods i could give you an Angel Cabrera

That's your quote.

In today's game you are way off to suggest that just some golfers go to the gym. You could not give me a Cabrerra for every Woods. Out of the top 200 in the world, I would imagine 90% plus would do massive gym work combined with practising.

you are doing it again, if can define massive gym work and list your source of the 90% (and tell me that the great players i have listed are doing massive gym work) then you will convince me.
im never doing a reply like this ever again!!!
Can we agree to disagree if you wont admit you are wrong

Ha, no chance am I admitting I am wrong here.  Agree to disagree is the only option but I am still going to have to reply.

Ok from those only Jiminez can really claim to have had much success since Woods arrived on the scene. He has won more tourneys over 40 but the rest have not done better. I mentioned Daly to point out that sometimes people can get away with just having the genius. A quote from his book. "Hey Tiger come and have a pint with me instead of hitting the gym" "Johnif I had your talent I wouldn;t have to hit the gym."

Ok every player spending three hours in a gym every day may have been a bit much but you are writing these players off as not doing gym work. I have given evidence and quotes that Mickelson, Garcia, Clarke have all got a gym-based mindset now, Clarke and Mickeslon adapting it in recent years to suggest that they think the game has shifted that way. I was watching Mickleson on Sunday night actually, didn't look particuarly chubby to me IMHO.

You say about Harrington and his 70-hours, and no I can't produce a specific beakdown, but when he mentions gym work as he does you can assume a sizeable portion of the 7p hours is in the gym. Golfers are notoriously tight-lipped about their training schedules, the pursuit of Woods schedule has been taken on by many a journalist, the specifics have never been found.

I notice you mention Westwood. He has given up drink and here is a report from a newspaper article on Feb 9 (Daily Record)

The world No.12 has spent much of his time in the gym doing gruelling sessions of up to three hours to get fit for the new campaign. He is already reaping the benefits by hitting the ball further than ever.

"I have lost about a stone since Christmas and been on a strict diet as well. I am also throwing myself into the gym because I have seen the difference that has made since I turned 30"

I did about 20 gym sessions in 25 days after Christmas and have noticed a difference in the distance I am hitting the ball.

"I can feel a difference in how quickly I can control my swing too. I seem to be able to control my muscles in my body a bit better.

---

I am surprised you mentioned Els, he has released a book on how to get fit for golf including muscle work etc.
The only ones I mentioned as exceptions were Cabrerra, Jiminez and Daly. Two are well off the radar now, one major aside.

---

You ask how has Clarke's game improved? Well he certainly had a good end to 08 and not a bad start to 09. Regardless of whether or not it has improved does hold much significance, the fact that he sees gym work as an neccesity is the main thing to take from that. His form of the last two years has dropped for obvious reasons too.

You also why mention Garcia, all golfers do four hours? Exactly my point, another four hours of tough training.

It's a part of the game now, A qucik google search on any player on the tour plus gym will bring up information. I would imagine that a tiny minority don;lt indulge in significant gym work.


But agree to disagree as you say. We'll leave it then. 

Did you have to quote all the previous posts between ye...................

[corn02]

 

[Rav67]

I am glad we agree that he was the best midfielder in the world to come back fron injury..weather he meant to injure halland or not is irrelevant

He was never the best, he was in the era of Zidane the greatest footballer since Maradona.  And whether he meant to injure Haaland is relevant given that you stated Haaland injured Keane.  Keane's references to Haaland in his autobiography made him sound pyschotic to me. 

[RedandGreenSniper]

if you are lying down with a career threatening injury

even if it was his own fault that he got injured?

His own fault? It was an accident, could easily happen. Just what Haaland did was crass. Surely you can admit that?

Yes - his own fault - go look at the footage. What should Haaland have done? Keane tried to injure him.

You can't say Keane tried to injure him. Second time he did. First time was just a poor tackle. I'm not going to post anymore on this because we won't agree. I've seen the footage. Keane mistimed his tackle. Maybe it was his own fault but not in the 'serves him right for trying to hurt someone' type of way you are suggesting. Haaland shouldn't have stood over him, plain and simple. He was clearly in agony. Upon realising this, a bit of humility/contrition for standing over him and calling him a cheat wouldn't have went amiss. Keane was, I repeat, wrong to do what he did in retribution. But Haaland is not completely without flaw either.

[youngfella]

top three IMO

Lance - recovered from cancer and kicked ass
woods - will more than likely kick ass again
schumi - came back stronger then ever

Others

gaa
king herny and noel hickeys recoveries were both amazing. great hunger to get get back in the team.

football
keane done well to recover his form

The worse football injury and recovery is this

Patrick Battiston http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coSfMSUSVPI&feature=related

[ludermor]

Corn
Last post i promise ( and look no quotes!!)

The players listed have all had substantial success since Tiger came on the scene and some have had all their sucess in that time. Tiger broke onto the scene in 96/97 but since then westwood
Westwood and Els have started using the gym in the last couple of years, they have been at the very top of their game for over a decade so its a bit iffy to thank gym work for it.

Ok every player spending three hours in a gym every day may have been a bit much but you are writing these players off as not doing gym work. I have given evidence and quotes that Mickelson, Garcia, Clarke have all got a gym-based mindset now, Clarke and Mickeslon adapting it in recent years to suggest that they think the game has shifted that way. I was watching Mickleson on Sunday night actually, didn't look particuarly chubby to me IMHO.

Ah ha so now we are going from saying Mickleson is an athlete to not being particulary chubby. I think that sums it up. I gave you a quote from Garcia where he says he goes to the gym if he has spare time, not the attitude of an athlete
I never wrote the players off as doing no work, just didnt agree with your statement that 90% do 3 hours in the gym every day.A lot of normal people use the gym every day but that doesnt make them atheles ( which is what we started discussing!)
Oh and by the way i think your first post is right