An Lú vs Tír Eoghain 19/07/2008

[ONeill]

No I disagree. Firstly, for you to say Down, as Ulster finalists, are a different beast to this year's team still needs some kind of vindication. I honestly cannot make head nor tail of your next 100-word sentence.

With Canavan and O'Neill anything was possible.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

No I disagree. Firstly, for you to say Down, as Ulster finalists, are a different beast to this year's team still needs some kind of vindication. I honestly cannot make head nor tail of your next 100-word sentence.

Comprehension! Let the teachers be taught perhaps? 

Now, we can delve into root-and-branch analysis of Down's passage to the Ulster Final in '03, but I'd venture that it involved a few fewer potholes than this potential path for them does (we were a big pothole), in this year that's in it. I think they're a much stronger team, and I think the Ulster Championship is the winner as a result thereof - do you disagree?

[Lamh Dhearg Alba]

We've went two championships without an All Ireland. Before Mickey Harte came along we had went over 100 years without an All Ireland. We won the ulster title last year, something which is a decent enough achievement. How many other current ulster county managers have won an ulster title? I dont see these managers getting serious abuse. People have to appreciate exactly what Mickey Harte has brought to Tyrone football this past 15 years and catch themselves on. People are quick to say Canavan won us the all irelands but he played for Tyrone for many years before Mickey came along and wasnt involved in Hartes 3 All Ireland underage titles.

Indeed, Harte getting abuse from supporters is a complete joke. He has had a superb generation of players to work with but so have plenty other counties and managers who have failed to match the success Mickey has had. Success achieved despite tragedy away from the field of play as well.

Of the years other than 2003 and 2005 I think 2007 was the one that got away. Given the events of 2004 Sam was never likely and the panel was missing so many lads in 2006 that it just wasnt going to happen. 2007 though the team started to come together nicely and regained Ulster. Had Tyrone been able to then go into the All-Ireland series with a fit Dooher, McGuigan and O'Neill they would have taken some stopping. But it wasnt to be.

[ONeill]

No I disagree. Firstly, for you to say Down, as Ulster finalists, are a different beast to this year's team still needs some kind of vindication. I honestly cannot make head nor tail of your next 100-word sentence.

Comprehension! Let the teachers be taught perhaps? 

Now, we can delve into root-and-branch analysis of Down's passage to the Ulster Final in '03, but I'd venture that it involved a few fewer potholes than this potential path for them does (we were a big pothole), in this year that's in it. I think they're a much stronger team, and I think the Ulster Championship is the winner as a result thereof - do you disagree?

Yes, Down are a Division 3 team that failed to get out of Division 3.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

So league positions/divisions are the ultimate determinant?

[ONeill]

Who were the last All-Ireland finalists outside of 1a or 1b?

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Beside the point of the Championship surely? So, you are pre-determined based solely on the League position (maybe Galway in 2001 was the last non-Top League team to win Sam)?

On that basis then, we, a Division 1 team, have a much greater chance of success than Down (who cares about the Ulster). Game on!

[ONeill]

Beside the point of the Championship surely? So, you are pre-determined based solely on the League position (maybe Galway in 2001 was the last non-Top League team to win Sam)?

You're joking, aren't you?

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

OK, not joking as such, but maybe not anchored in unalloyed reality either 

Nonetheless, it's by no means a pre-requisite that a team must be a Div 1 team that can't be beaten by a lower division team to win Sam... we're not totally beyond hope yet.

[Zapatista]

OK, not joking as such, but maybe not anchored in unalloyed reality either 

Nonetheless, it's by no means a pre-requisite that a team must be a Div 1 team that can't be beaten by a lower division team to win Sam... we're not totally beyond hope yet.

True Fear but it is a lot more unlikely for it to happen. A lower divison team could beat a higher division team anytime but to win Sam would be quite a shock. Pehaps we are eing fooled by our league position.

[ONeill]

Plenty of debate in the papers these days regarding Harte's future. The Irish News appear to be Harte men, fairly big time. If you're good to the media, they're good to you.

The Tribune has some kind of feature article on him tomorrow.

[ONeill]

Voices screaming for Tyrone change are missing the point
The Boot Room
by Brendan Crossan

"If you go to a replay and you don't win, there is no argument. There is no rub of the green going against you because over that length of game, including extra-time, the better team always comes out on top.

"Down were the better team and that's why they're in the semi-final."

THE above quotation was uttered by Mickey Harte after Tyrone exited the Ulster Championship to Down last Saturday night after two epic encounters.

It was typical of the man. Magnanimous to the bitter end.

Win, lose or draw, Harte is always the same. He's as humble in defeat as he is in victory. There's no better man and no better manager in the GAA than Mickey Harte.

He ticks all the boxes. Tyrone should be thankful for an ambassador like him.

But, as sure as night follows day, there are calls for the double All-Ireland winning manager to step down after the Red Hands fell at the first hurdle of the provincial Championship last weekend.

Whether it is on internet discussion boards, among media pundits or merely bar-room chat, there appears a swelling body of opinion that says Mickey Harte should resign as Tyrone senior football manager.

A smidgen of it is well-intentioned, but a fair chunk of it is steeped in parish/county jealousy. It's how the GAA works, you see, especially in the O'Neill county.

Many dissenting voices point to some perceived tactical errors made by the manager against Down, while others believe the whole set-up has simply gone stale and the best remedy is a new man at the helm.

It is always good for any discourse to offer up various points of view, but to suggest Harte should step aside, and maybe return to the job in a few years time, is misplaced.

Firstly, Tyrone already have the best man in the job. And, secondly, to suggest he resigns now and returns by popular demand a few years down the line would reduce him to a glory-hunter, someone who only re-emerges when he sees the sun begin to peek over the horizon again. Silverware is a driving force for any manager, but not the only one.

If the Red Hands are in transition, then it is Mickey Harte's prerogative to oversee that process, just as Sean Boylan did in Meath.

For Boylan, there were some thin times before and after winning four All-Ireland titles between 1983 and 2006. It wasn't always about the silverware; it was about developing young people as much as it was about developing their sporting talents.

Harte has played more than the one-dimensional role of football manager in Tyrone since the early 1990s. He offered compassionate and strong leadership when players Paul McGirr and Cormac McAnallen lost their lives.

Tyrone couldn't wish for a better role model and his players won't come across a better mentor while they're still fit and young enough to run up and down a football pitch.

But, if you think this column is about to wrap itself in sentimental clothes, let's look at Tyrone's two performances against Down.

The players tried their proverbial eye-strings out for themselves, their team-mates, their families and their manager both in Healy Park and Pairc Esler.

You can discuss the merits of a manager's tactics forever and a day, but if players are seen not to be trying as hard as they should, then the manager is culpable. Tyrone have not reached that point under Harte. In fact, the Tyrone boss couldn't have squeezed any more air from his players in Omagh and Newry.

It wasn't so long ago the current incumbent was being lauded as a tactical genius; the man with a plan for every eventuality. A successful manager never forgets how to move the pieces around the board to win a game.

More than anything, Harte appreciates the subtle differences between being single-minded and being dogmatic. He saw the merits in playing a big man up front this term – a la Kieran Donaghy – but fielded a smaller, more mobile attack during most of Tyrone's National League campaign.

The latter permutation invariably failed and, therefore, the manager was forced to put a few square pegs into round holes against Down. Midfielder Sean Cavanagh was posted to the edge of the square and defender Conor Gormley was moved into centrefield.

It could be argued Harte got it wrong in both instances, but the core problem is that Tyrone do not possess the attacking riches of

previous summers.

With no Peter Canavan, Stephen O'Neill or Owen Mulligan, Tyrone were bound to struggle in attack. Add into the mix Brian McGuigan and Brian Dooher's respective injury nightmares of late and Harte's options were sorely limited.

You will also hear the begrudging cry that Mickey Harte's Tyrone wouldn't have won two All-Irelands had it not been for a man called Peter Canavan.

While undoubtedly the greatest player of his generation, Canavan also played in many failed Tyrone teams. The Red Hands only realised their potential when Harte arrived on the senior stage.

What is more worrisome in all of this is with each passing year, the similarities between the GAA and the English Premier League become more striking. If a team loses a few games, then the calls grow for the manager's head.

Maybe it's the fault of the English tabloid newspaper industry for this cultural malaise that's seeped into the GAA psyche where it becomes acceptable to demand change and worry about an alternative later.

This is, after all, the GAA we're talking about here, where etiquette is supposed to count for something. There is no multi-million pound transfer market in place where a manager can make sweeping changes with a few signatures from the chairman's pen.

The GAA, on the other hand, has to put its faith in the U14 and U16 development squads and dreams of the next golden generation to emerge.

And still we're inclined to apply the same twisted logic of big-time soccer to the world of gaelic football. These are not only confusing times for the average GAA fan – but also for the man who has delivered for Tyrone on countless occasions, and will do so again...

[ONeill]

Although much of this is true, I suggest, Mr Crossan, that you do a little bit of research into why certain players,including the best in the land in 2005, are not playing for their county.

[Zapatista]

I doubt if it's as wide spread as he is making out. Here we discuss GAA matters and this is a GAA matter. It is logical for it to be discussed here. FFS we discussed SON coming back and we had a great thread about the type of manager Mick O'Dwyer is. It is only discussion and I don't think too many are seriously looking for heads to roll but moreso voicing their opinions. However, after this article more will be discussing it.

[rrhf]

Lets not judge it on popularity contests or media spin or injury or indeed past mistakes or glories.  Lets judge it on current management skills and the ability to marshall his troops.  Mickey is going to have another crack at this thing in the back door.  Nobody klnow better than Micket the terrain that he plys his trade in.  He entered senior management in acrimonious circumstances beyond his control  and the reality is he may leave in the same terms beyond his control,  and thats life managing Tyrone.  If he has as terrible a game as he performed against Down then he probably has to go, We have criticised Big Joe, Mc Cullagh, hub etc - Harte was the worst performer Tyrone had on the night and his decision making cost Tyrone the game.  Lets see how it pans out in the next game. Lets not be sucked in by spin either.  Results count only from here on but everything has to be masured in terms of progression / regression etc or before we know it we will be out of the top 10 if we are not close to that already.  Reality is we should also be in division 2