The UK Budget Oct 2024.... are farmers not fuming?

[Armagh18]

No sympathy for people earning millions paying more tax, who got out of paying tax that the average earner has to pay

They'll get not much sympathy from Joe Public either

The farm can be worth a million but be earning nothing. Lots of ordinary farmers impacted by this. Not just the Jeremy Clarksons of the world.

How many is lots?

Unless it's changed it was originally anything worth £1m.

Agricultural land at roughly 10k per acre.

Any farm with 100 acres plus. And that's just the land value. The majority of farms on the mainland would be impacted I'd guess.

If its 3m with marriage etc as your article above suggests it would eliminate most of those farms and make it less of an issue.

The figures in the article above appear to be inherited per year.

There are definitely multiple times more than 500 farms worth 1m. And multiple times more than 37 farms worth 5m plus.

10k an acre??

Hearing of it going for 3 times that locally. (Mostly by c***ts that will never farm it)

[Armagh18]

Fair fucks to them. A few load of slurry sprayed on Keir and the rest would be perfect

Amen to that

We complain non stop about our public services and waiting lists etc and then when a government proposes a tax on the very wealthy landowners to pay for improvements we get most people complaining again. I've read a number of top economists saying this will only affect 13% of farmers and the ones it will affect can well afford it. People like clarkson and dyson who buy up huge amounts of land to avoid paying taxes are exactly the reason this tax is being introduced.

Asset rich. Cash poor. Contrary to popular belief most farmers don't make very much money and I'd say if you added up all the hours worked in a year and worked it out they'd be earning well under minimum wage.

I would say most medium sized farms would be over the million valuation when you add in farm house/sheds/machinery and ground. 

Inheritance tax at all is absolute theft imo anyway.

As I've said all of those medium sized farms will be unaffected by this tax. It's only the mega farms and very wealthy people who'll be taxed and rightly so.

Thats just not true.

[Jeepers Creepers]

https://x.com/williamcrawley/status/1858964516555395121?s=46&t=BtFaHRA2ROFhCax853NIkA

Worth a watch.

[trileacman]

_et's just break down the facts behind the hysteria of the right wing media, the deceitful Conservatives and loud-mouthed tax dodgers like Clarkson.
There are 209,000 farms in Britain of various sizes.
"Paul Johnson, the director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS), an independent economy think-tank, told Sky News: "The changes will affect a remarkably small number of some of the most valuable farms. He added: "[Farms are] still more generously treated, actually, than farms used to be in decades past."
OH NO!
The Treasury estimates that 500 estates including agricultural land will be affected by the_agricultural ANYWAY property relief reform per year. Dan Neidle, an independent tax expert, says the number of actual farms affected is likely to be below 500 per year.
here were a total of 462 inherited farms valued above £1m in 2021-22, according to HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC): 345 valued between £1m and £2.5m 80 at £2.5m to £5m 37 above £5m
Under the new rules, those 462 farms would be affected by the 20% inheritance tax on any value above £1m (not on the whole value). However, as Mr Neidle points out, like for the rest of the population, there is no inheritance tax to be paid on the value of property up to £325,000, bringing the untaxed total to £1.325m. If a farmer is married, his or her spouse would be able to pass on another £1.325m tax free, taking the total untaxed amount to £2.65m. There were 117 farms valued above £2.5m in 2021-22, according to the HMRC figures. n addition, there is an £175,000 tax-free allowance on a main residence when it's being passed on to children or grandchildren. This brings the total untaxed amount for a farming couple to up to £3m.
Source: BBC website (who, let's remind ourselves, mentions none of the above in their TV and Radio coverage of the issue).
Now, assuming that less than a hundred farms are potentially affected by the closing of the tax-dodging loophole, that means that... 0.004% of farms will be affected. *

Haven't checked source, but had this sent to me by a farmer from Greysteel Co Derry earlier today

That's pretty much all bullshit there. All farms valued over £1 million will pay the tax. It is not a million £ allowance for the farmer and for his wife. You're also overlooking the value of the farmhouse which will swallow up the 325,000£ allowance and some in quite a few cases. That's before you start adding in the value of assets, livestock, deadstock, machinery, any pensions etc.

There will be ways around it but the people who get caught out by this are the ones who will need the most help. A young man or woman who dies suddenly will likely not be able to avail of the "gift" loophole. People who haven't had the time to arrange their affairs 7 years before their death. It's highly likely that a young family or grieving wife who's husband dies suddenly will have to sell their children's inheritance and/or family home to pay a tax bill. It's an incredibly cruel tax grab.

Many families and farmers don't view their farm as an "asset". It's not comparable to shares, pensions or money in a bank. It's usually viewed as a kind of heirloom passed from one generation to another. Something that has shaped a history of families.

[trileacman]

https://x.com/williamcrawley/status/1858964516555395121?s=46&t=BtFaHRA2ROFhCax853NIkA

Worth a watch.

He says they can't differentiate between farmers and tenant farmers? Why not? How is it in any way difficult to differentiate between Jeremy Clarkson, James Dyson and the ordinary farmer who stands in the parlour milking cows or drives the combine in the fields? Surely it's easy to differentiate between a farmer who has worked the ground for generations and some wealthy blow in who's bought it to tie up his millions made in another business?

Also says that 117 farms would be affected in the 21/22 tax year because he assumes they're all married couples who leave their assets to their children. That's making 2 assumptions which would not be true for all the farms. Secondly he doesn't state how many of the total estates in 21/22 tax year that 117 represents? Is that half of all farms? 1/4?
Those are very big proportions of farms if that is the case.

[Milltown Row2]

Can anyone tell me why a Doctor pays inheritance tax and a farmer doesn't?

[trileacman]

Can anyone tell me why a Doctor pays inheritance tax and a farmer doesn't?

A simplistic, reductive way to look at it. I could just as easily ask why do property owners get an exemption on their estate? Why do you get an exemption if you leave property to your children and not your nieces, brothers, cousins or nephews?

When a doctor leaves assets in his estate they are usually liquid assets that have only a monetary value. There's no emotional attachment to continue owning Dr. Johnsons shares in BOI. Those who inherit his estate are generally inheriting a cash windfall not something that people feel a duty to carry on in their own name. Also farmers are generally inheriting an asset that is worth millions but generating maybe a 1-2% return.

You're happy enough with a tax system that would drive a young family from their home farm if their father or mother died suddenly?

[Milltown Row2]

They paid this tax before 84, so it's not like they haven't done this before

People complaining about the services they get, but no one is willing to actually pay for it, I'm not sure where the money comes from to give people what they want.

[Sportacus]

A lot of talk about farmers earning low incomes.  I wonder to what extent do they operate with cash, and to what extent do they spend big on machinery, jeeps etc rather than give it to the tax man.  Equals low income on paper, but are they actually doing alright?

[naka]

_et's just break down the facts behind the hysteria of the right wing media, the deceitful Conservatives and loud-mouthed tax dodgers like Clarkson.
There are 209,000 farms in Britain of various sizes.
"Paul Johnson, the director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS), an independent economy think-tank, told Sky News: "The changes will affect a remarkably small number of some of the most valuable farms. He added: "[Farms are] still more generously treated, actually, than farms used to be in decades past."
OH NO!
The Treasury estimates that 500 estates including agricultural land will be affected by the_agricultural ANYWAY property relief reform per year. Dan Neidle, an independent tax expert, says the number of actual farms affected is likely to be below 500 per year.
here were a total of 462 inherited farms valued above £1m in 2021-22, according to HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC): 345 valued between £1m and £2.5m 80 at £2.5m to £5m 37 above £5m
Under the new rules, those 462 farms would be affected by the 20% inheritance tax on any value above £1m (not on the whole value). However, as Mr Neidle points out, like for the rest of the population, there is no inheritance tax to be paid on the value of property up to £325,000, bringing the untaxed total to £1.325m. If a farmer is married, his or her spouse would be able to pass on another £1.325m tax free, taking the total untaxed amount to £2.65m. There were 117 farms valued above £2.5m in 2021-22, according to the HMRC figures. n addition, there is an £175,000 tax-free allowance on a main residence when it's being passed on to children or grandchildren. This brings the total untaxed amount for a farming couple to up to £3m.
Source: BBC website (who, let's remind ourselves, mentions none of the above in their TV and Radio coverage of the issue).
Now, assuming that less than a hundred farms are potentially affected by the closing of the tax-dodging loophole, that means that... 0.004% of farms will be affected. *

Haven't checked source, but had this sent to me by a farmer from Greysteel Co Derry earlier today

That's pretty much all bullshit there. All farms valued over £1 million will pay the tax. It is not a million £ allowance for the farmer and for his wife. You're also overlooking the value of the farmhouse which will swallow up the 325,000£ allowance and some in quite a few cases. That's before you start adding in the value of assets, livestock, deadstock, machinery, any pensions etc.

There will be ways around it but the people who get caught out by this are the ones who will need the most help. A young man or woman who dies suddenly will likely not be able to avail of the "gift" loophole. People who haven't had the time to arrange their affairs 7 years before their death. It's highly likely that a young family or grieving wife who's husband dies suddenly will have to sell their children's inheritance and/or family home to pay a tax bill. It's an incredibly cruel tax grab.

Many families and farmers don't view their farm as an "asset". It's not comparable to shares, pensions or money in a bank. It's usually viewed as a kind of heirloom passed from one generation to another. Something that has shaped a history of families.

So if I am correct
Husband has £1m allowance
Wife has £1m
Allowance
Each has the 325k allowance
Then the 175k each if family home to
Kids
That 3 million to play around with before the 20% kicks in,

Regarding husband dying if he has a will and gifts all to wife then inheritance has spousal exemption.

Sorry but most of us are getting hammered tax wise so sympathy is in short supply

[Hereiam]

Labour have looked at this through accounting glasses and have not allowed for the connection we have with the land. If HMRC came looking inheritance tax of me I would do time before I would sell one sq.ft of it to give it to them.
My father took over this ground from his father which was all covered in scrub and rushes. My father spent his 30's & 40's getting it into the shape it is in today and there is not a hope in hell I will be letting it go
People need to understand a lot of us in the beef & sheep sector work full time jobs as well and we pay our taxes like everyone else. We pay PAYEE, we pay our rates we keep the local economy going by buying local for the running of the farm. We hire contractors to cut our silage and pay them what they are owed.
Its bloody hard work and in my own case I have 4 young children and a wife to look after. You cant make someone farm it has to be in you to do it. I fatten 50 cattle a year and have 50 sheep lambing at the end of February and let me tell you I might as well have a couple of hundred with the work & time it takes. Why do I do it? I do it because it gives me a sense of purpose, when you see a field of new born lambs running about in spring time there is nothing like it. When you get all the silage in an all is ready for the winter its something you can say to yourself "that was a job well done".
I am a small farmer in Tyrone who enjoys farming and in all my years farming I can say that if I break even at the end of the financial year I am happy (there have been plenty of losses).
The small bit of ground that makes up our farm will never make me a living but I hope it will give the same rollercoaster ride it gives me to whichever of my kids decide to take it on and I can only do my bit for as long as I'm still breathing.

I'm not sure why Labour is doing this as the rich business men buying up land will not be affected by this as they have the best advisors helping them avoid the tax owed but the small man will pay.
They need to roll this back or there will be trouble, not so much over here because we are a divided community but England could be in trouble.

Rant over

[Milltown Row2]

That's good but why should I pay tax and you don't?

[armaghniac]

Can anyone tell me why a Doctor pays inheritance tax and a farmer doesn't?

A doctor is not a business, the value is mainly embodied in the skills of the person. The ability of the children to become doctors is not dependent on inheritance, they can just go to college.

[Sportacus]

Labour have looked at this through accounting glasses and have not allowed for the connection we have with the land. If HMRC came looking inheritance tax of me I would do time before I would sell one sq.ft of it to give it to them.
My father took over this ground from his father which was all covered in scrub and rushes. My father spent his 30's & 40's getting it into the shape it is in today and there is not a hope in hell I will be letting it go
People need to understand a lot of us in the beef & sheep sector work full time jobs as well and we pay our taxes like everyone else. We pay PAYEE, we pay our rates we keep the local economy going by buying local for the running of the farm. We hire contractors to cut our silage and pay them what they are owed.
Its bloody hard work and in my own case I have 4 young children and a wife to look after. You cant make someone farm it has to be in you to do it. I fatten 50 cattle a year and have 50 sheep lambing at the end of February and let me tell you I might as well have a couple of hundred with the work & time it takes. Why do I do it? I do it because it gives me a sense of purpose, when you see a field of new born lambs running about in spring time there is nothing like it. When you get all the silage in an all is ready for the winter its something you can say to yourself "that was a job well done".
I am a small farmer in Tyrone who enjoys farming and in all my years farming I can say that if I break even at the end of the financial year I am happy (there have been plenty of losses).
The small bit of ground that makes up our farm will never make me a living but I hope it will give the same rollercoaster ride it gives me to whichever of my kids decide to take it on and I can only do my bit for as long as I'm still breathing.

I'm not sure why Labour is doing this as the rich business men buying up land will not be affected by this as they have the best advisors helping them avoid the tax owed but the small man will pay.
They need to roll this back or there will be trouble, not so much over here because we are a divided community but England could be in trouble.

Rant over

That's a good insight, fair play.  But do you really not make a turn at it?  The farmers I know tell me prices are good at the moment?

[AustinPowers]

A lot of talk about farmers earning low incomes.  I wonder to what extent do they operate with cash, and to what extent do they spend big on machinery, jeeps etc rather than give it to the tax man. Equals low income on paper, but are they actually doing alright?

Good luck to them if they do  avoid paying  tax

It would be  a drop in the  ocean compared  to what the super wealthy  avoid in tax , but no government will be going  after them .