Messages

[Cillian O'Connor]

All-time top scorers
As of 3 September 2018

1  Colm Cooper  Kerry  23-283  352  85 games  2002-2017  4.1 
2  Cillian O'Connor  Mayo  23-272  341  48 games  2011-  7.1 
3  Mikey Sheehy  Kerry  29-205  292  49 games  1973-1988  6.0 
4  John Doyle  Kildare  8-260  284  67 games  1999-2014  4.2 
5  Padraig Joyce  Galway  12-229  265  66 games  1997-2012  4.0 
6   Bernard Brogan  Dublin  21-196  259  58 games  2006-  4.5 
7  Paddy Bradley  Derry  17-202  253  44 games  1999-2012  5.8 
8  Steven McDonnell  Armagh  18-197  251  67 games  1999-2011  3.7 
9   Maurice Fitzgerald  Kerry  12-205  241  45 games  1988-2001  5.4 
10  Brian Stafford  Meath  9-206  233  41 games  1986-1995  5.7 
11  Oisin McConville  Armagh  11-197  230  52 games  1994-2008  4.4 
12  Jimmy Keaveney  Dublin  15-182  227  42 games  1964-1980  5.4 
13  Peter Canavan  Tyrone  9-192  219  58 games  1989-2005  3.8 
14  Conor McManus  Monaghan  7-204  225  50 games  2007-  4.5 
15  Sean Cavanagh  Tyrone  9-181  208  89 games  2002-2017  2.3 
16  Colin Corkery  Cork  5-182  197  32 games  1993-2004  6.2 
17  Ross Munnelly  Laois  6-168  186  70 games  2003-  2.7 
18  Dean Rock  Dublin  8-173  197  36 games  2013-  5.4 
19  Dara O'Cinneide  Kerry  11-149  182  54 games  1995-2005  3.4 
20  Matt Connor  Offaly  13-142  181  26 games  1978-1984  7.0 
21  Pat Spillane  Kerry  19-123  180  56 games  1974-1991  3.2 


I find it laughable people think COC shouldn't be on the Mayo team personally. His scoring rate is phenomenal.

PS. Looking at that list, I really think Paddy Bradley wasn't as recognized as he should have been nationally as he was on a weaker side as opposed to some other forwards of that era.

I don't really understand this logic, O'Connor's scoring rate is phenomenal but when you look a bit behind the statistics, you'd find that a huge proportion of his scores come from dead balls around the 21 yard line.

I put up a graph earlier in the thread of his 2017 scoring tally from frees, he scored 27 points from frees around, inside on around the central area of the 20 metre line. They are gimmees even for an average club free taker.

A lot of people tend to want to argue different things about O'Connor, for me he is not a top level forward and I think pointing at his scoring record is weak because it is boosted enormously by the number of handy frees he converts.

As for Bradley he was a top level forward and was Derry's main man for years, if you marked Paddy Bradley out of a game, Derry weren't going to win and on many occasions teams sacrificed a few players for this and it still didn't work.

[Dublin had their own unlucky breaks too]

I declined to comment on this thread till now. It was started by The Greatest, who doesn't believe himself that Mayo will win the All Ireland this year, in jest to see what fun people would have.

As for the thread title, I think we will be thereabouts, depending if Mayo get to a Connacht final and win the damn thing. Ros will be thinking that the wet day in Jan is no way indicative on how they would do in the championship. Galway have our number over the past few years as have Dublin. Tyrone will also be making progress as they have done in the league. Kerry are Kerry, but I cannot see them winning it outright. It does make for an interesting summer. It's more than likely going to be Dublin Again, but I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't. IF they don't, then all the other counties I mentioned including Mayo would be disappointed. I don't think Donegal are ready yet.

Sensible idea Farr, this thread has gone way off-topic.
I dunno who is most likely to give the Dubs a right rattle during the championships but if Mayo make it as far as the AI final and Dublin provides the opposition, the only ting I can say with confidence is that if the Dubs make the five in a row, this one will be the toughest of them all to date.
Mayo just don't fear Dublin- not in the championships anyway. Andy once said that he didn't want to see Dublin split. He wanted to take them on fair and square without help from any quarter and he reckoned the rest of the team felt the same way. IMO, Mayo and Dublin have been very evenly matched in all games at HQ since the '13 final.  Sure, Mayo have had bizarre spells of hard luck but Dublin had their own unlucky breaks too and if they had lost any final or semi of the games they played, some Dubs might feel aggrieved as a result.
IMO, the big, big difference between the teams was the quality in depth that Jim Gavin had. His bench was the defining difference between the sides.
Unfortunately for Mayo, it was a case of all fur coat and no knickers every year. A top class team but the quality dropped off sharply once you looked past the first few on the bench, whereas Gavin had at least 20 who couldn't gain a first team place but who'd walk onto any other county side.
Far too soon to start feeling bullish about Mayo's prospects but Horan will have at least 20 top class players to choose from.
There's a lot of work to be done yet and there's no guarantee that Mayo will make it t the final but if they do, they'll take no prisoners, Dubs or otherwise!

Bar Jack McCafferey doing his Cruciate early in one final, I can't think of any other unlucky breaks Dublin have had?

The 2013 AI final I think where Dublin effectively were down to 13 for the last 10 minutes with a concussed Rory O'Carroll and Eoghan O'Gara with a torn hamstring on the pitch but not really able to play any part in the game.

The guy from don't foul used to put up some very interesting GAA data from matches, he doesn't seem to do as much anymore which is a shame as it was always very interesting to see how the reality may reinforce or differ from your perceptions.

In 2017, he did some analysis on COC's frees ahead of the AI final - it's interesting to see the pattern emerge of where the scores come from.



You can see there that his conversion rate dips significantly outside what are generally gimmees for any above average inter county free taker. It reinforces what my views are of O'Connor, his scoring records year on year are phenomenal but when you delve deeper in behind them you see that they are hugely boosted by handy frees in front of the posts which are a product of some of the superb runners Mayo have in that team and they way they can generate those scorable frees and goal chances.

[where teams are up to in terms of fitness]

A lot of hype surrounding Mayo since Sunday, everyone tipping them as the team to challenge the Dubs.

The league can be a difficult gauge sometimes as we don't know where teams are up to in terms of fitness, after Sunday its safe to assume Mayo are in the team in the best shape. Agree with seanie about AOS, looks like he's in the best shape of his life.

Speaking of that, what's Comer at these days? Must have done serious damage to miss the entire league with an ankle injury sustained at Christmas.

Still in a walking boot. Walsh said he hopes to have him back end of May. Not sure he'll have much of an impact on the Connacht championship though. Maybe the Super 8's if they get that far.

Think it's taken so long as they thought he didn't need surgery at first. Then once it wasn't healing they eventually had to have the surgery done.

Doesn't reflect well on the medical team, he'd be back by now if he'd had the op in the first place. Cummins is a decent enough replacement, for a small fella he gets more than his fair share of fisted goals.

Wasn't Cummins Galways  top scorer from play in the league . Mainly due to goal .though some of the genius's here would hold that against him Following the  the analysis of Co'C.
being the best scorer ever just doesn't cut it for some folk

You're being overly sensitive again.

COC gets the most out of himself but the criticisms are valid and I wouldn't have him as a top level forward. I simply don't think he contributes enough from play. The type of players Mayo have and the type of game they play means they generate a huge amount of handy frees in every game, O'Connor is one of the best free takers in the game too - I would estimate that at least 50% of his entire scoring total comes from placed balls inside 30 metres.

He can finish, he can take on the shooting responsibility, he can put a good defensive shift in from the front and he is a very reliable free taker.

But his limitations are obvious, he doesn't have that craft or flair, the aerial ability to win ball despite being a big man, the movement to lose a marker when being tightly watched, the ability to kick scores of his weaker foot consistently, he lacks pace and having watched him live at matches I don't think he shows enough for the ball from open play.

I don't think anybody is saying he is useless or poor, people are saying that he's not a top level forward from open play which is a more than fair comment.

Enjoying a Tyrone man continually underplaying the huge importance of a consistent free taker at the top level

You're putting words in my mouth now. It's pretty clear what I've said, last year McAliskey was the 2nd top scorer in Championship football, both from play and overall. I like McAliskey, I can't fault his attitude and his effort and I think he's a very good player - he's not a top level forward though and I think if he was in that Mayo team ahead of O'Connor and taking frees he'd have scored every bit as much as him.

People who think that just because O'Connor tops the scoring charts most years means he's a top level forward is wrong. I'd have a 35 year old Andy Moran ahead of him every day of the week if I had to choose.

Young people for years and years going travelling but god forbid when a footballer decides to go!!
Fair play to him and right he is!! Id be pretty sure he's getting at least 15k for going considering what other players have been getting and the fact he's going over there as someone who just dropped of the Tyrone team and been on it for years and played last year in a year they got to an all Ireland final, he would be known all over aswel!

I don't see anyone giving him a hard time for it?

It's a good chance for him to get something back from the game as injuries and the changing nature of the game have prohibited him from delivering on the natural talent he had.

[where teams are up to in terms of fitness]

A lot of hype surrounding Mayo since Sunday, everyone tipping them as the team to challenge the Dubs.

The league can be a difficult gauge sometimes as we don't know where teams are up to in terms of fitness, after Sunday its safe to assume Mayo are in the team in the best shape. Agree with seanie about AOS, looks like he's in the best shape of his life.

Speaking of that, what's Comer at these days? Must have done serious damage to miss the entire league with an ankle injury sustained at Christmas.

Still in a walking boot. Walsh said he hopes to have him back end of May. Not sure he'll have much of an impact on the Connacht championship though. Maybe the Super 8's if they get that far.

Think it's taken so long as they thought he didn't need surgery at first. Then once it wasn't healing they eventually had to have the surgery done.

Doesn't reflect well on the medical team, he'd be back by now if he'd had the op in the first place. Cummins is a decent enough replacement, for a small fella he gets more than his fair share of fisted goals.

Wasn't Cummins Galways  top scorer from play in the league . Mainly due to goal .though some of the genius's here would hold that against him Following the  the analysis of Co'C.
being the best scorer ever just doesn't cut it for some folk

You're being overly sensitive again.

COC gets the most out of himself but the criticisms are valid and I wouldn't have him as a top level forward. I simply don't think he contributes enough from play. The type of players Mayo have and the type of game they play means they generate a huge amount of handy frees in every game, O'Connor is one of the best free takers in the game too - I would estimate that at least 50% of his entire scoring total comes from placed balls inside 30 metres.

He can finish, he can take on the shooting responsibility, he can put a good defensive shift in from the front and he is a very reliable free taker.

But his limitations are obvious, he doesn't have that craft or flair, the aerial ability to win ball despite being a big man, the movement to lose a marker when being tightly watched, the ability to kick scores of his weaker foot consistently, he lacks pace and having watched him live at matches I don't think he shows enough for the ball from open play.

I don't think anybody is saying he is useless or poor, people are saying that he's not a top level forward from open play which is a more than fair comment.

Apart from all those complaints eh?
Kerry Diarmuid o'Connor should have been black carded for the foul on Boland.
AOS was first booked when Jack Barry lulled him to the ground

On other points, Sherwood was destroyed, I said at HT we should get the ball into Coen, he won everything
Lastly Boland's chance was not a goal chance, it's not soccer, just cause he was round the goalie there were three Kerry lads back and he was at an angle. What he should have done was gone to ground the second the goalie swung outta him

It was definite goal chance as you can see below. He decided to take his point which is fair enough but without any doubt at all, the goal was on, you can clearly see that in the photo below. He absolutely has the time and space to check back in and roll it into the net.

Correct. That was never a goal chance and Boland was brave as f**k to win that ball ahead of keeper. Also Kerry were very well set up defensively for that game. Ultra defensive really. A lot of the narrative about that game has been bollocks.

[Personally I think winning intermediate and junior club All-Ireland's is well down the list of priorities]

The problem is not with Kerry. There's absolutely nothing to stop other counties having only 8 senior clubs if that's what suits their county. Personally I think winning intermediate and junior club All-Ireland's is well down the list of priorities and certainly not why Kerry's system is designed in this fashion. They use it to maximise the meaningful games each player gets.

Nail on head.

I'd abolish the intermediate and junior club All-Irelands. They are contrived and meaningless competitions that effectively reward strong clubs who get relegated. Cavan Gaels almost got relegated to intermediate in 2016 and the next year ended up getting to the Ulster Senior Club Final. Had they lost their relegation playoff, they would have probably won the All Ireland intermediate in 2017. What good would that have been to anyone?

Not really a great example there, Cavan Gaels benefitted from a handy draw in Ulster playing the Antrim and Fermanagh champions and were beaten quite routinely by Slaughtneil in the final. I'm not sure they'd have came out of Ulster that year at intermediate level and I'm not sure that they'd have fared out to well in the AI series if they did.

Lastly Boland's chance was not a goal chance, it's not soccer, just cause he was round the goalie there were three Kerry lads back and he was at an angle. What he should have done was gone to ground the second the goalie swung outta him

What do you think footballers do when they get around the keeper and player retreat back on the line?

There was a goal there for the taking, he opted to take the point which is fair enough but the goal was very much on.

Ok. Calling out the overt sectarianism around this fixture is now trolling. Ok. Got it.

I've been to Celtic park
Many times and feel a strong affinity to their Irish and charitable origins.
That said, there are elements of the old firm rivalry which are dangerous and unattractive.
Scott Brown's  interviews are often hilarious and he's proven himself to be a winner , but like all old firm
Players , he has a responsibility not to provoke . It appears There is a man fighting for his life and a family in distress because of injuries incurred related to the old firm yesterday. That's reality. Celtic have much better resources and a much better team and I was delighted with the win, but Scott Brown's behaviour yesterday left a lot to be desired .
I'm absolutely delighted for Neil Lennon particularly, but Brown should remember that Neil and others have suffered enormously as a result of sectarianism, and I hope all of us genuine Celtic fans are big enough to analyse Scott Brown's behaviour yestersday, and though it's hard not to have a laugh and enjoy his goading of our rivals, we must be big enough to admit that it's not what Celtic is.about , as an institution .

Why are you linking sectarianism with Scott Brown, it's an utterly ludicrous argument.

Mayo were very impressive yesterday and I think they look rejuvenated this year. Aidan O'Shea looks as lean as I've seen him for Mayo and seems to be lasting the pace of the game much better, he hasn't really delivered for Mayo but this is the year.

They will likely pose the biggest threat to Dublin this year with Tyrone next in line.

Kerry look pretty average and were bulled all over the pitch yesterday, they seem to be really lacking in leaders. Mayo destroyed them when the game was in the melting pot.

Gas.
Imagine how different the narrative would be had Clifford not missed the sitter at the end! People would be totally writing off Mayo as bottlers! Instead it's Kerry were bullied and have no leaders!

Kerry are a young team, who will learn loads from Sunday's game. Plus David Moran will make a huge difference.

Kerry would have fluked it and Mayo would have been the architects of their own downfall, for me that match was a 4 point hammering. Mayo were down to 14 men for the last 10 minutes too with a soft/silly red card for O'Shea. Mayo were rampant in the second half and a bit like the semi-final meetings in 2017, they let Kerry back into the game when they should have them well out of sight. They were failings on Mayo's part. Whatever may have happened with the Clifford chance, there's not much denying that Kerry were comprehensively outplayed over the course of the 70 minutes, Mayo had plenty of goals chances they didn't convert throughout - Vaughan had one early doors, Boland had one on when he took the point instead, Carr had one in the second half, they also hit a number of poor enough wides as well.

Kerry are a young team who look a few years off really being top contenders, they have big issues at the back, in the middle of the pitch and  physically look behind Dublin, Mayo and Tyrone. Worryingly as well is the form of Geaney and O'Donoghue who look shadows of their former selves.

I don't see Kerry as any better than last year, there's a lot of hype based on nothing really that surrounds them. I'm sure in 2/3 years they'll be back in All Ireland finals but I don't see them being able to beat Dublin or Mayo in a big Championship game in Croke Park this year.

Cillian gets plenty of scores from play. I honestly don't know how that myth is still out there.

He scored a stunning goal against Kerry in the 2011 semi final despite only being 19. Scored a hat trick against Donegal in the 2013 quarter final. When do you ever see a hat trick in Gaelic football? Excellent in both semi-finals vs Kerry in 2014. Carried the side vs Dublin in 2015. 3 points from play in the low scoring quarter final win vs Tyrone in 2016. Super equaliser vs Dublin in the drawn final. 3 points from play in the 2017 final. Many other examples too.

I can understand opposition fans don't like his off the ball stuff but you can't deny he's a prolific scorer.

He is a prolific scorer but I don't think that makes him a top level forward. The style of play and the type of running power Mayo have means that they will generate a lot of handy frees which O'Connor gets his name put towards, the way Mayo attack means that they also get plenty of men over on their attacks from their running power from deep and I think O'Connor benefits hugely from playing in that Mayo side rather than the other way around.

McAliskey finished the season as the joint 2nd top scorer in Championship and joint 2nd top scorer from play in Championship last year, he didn't even get an All Star nomination. I think O'Connor is a decent player but he's not a top level attacker, I wouldn't have him in the top 10 inside forwards in the game at any stage over his career. In the current Mayo side I would have him behind the likes of Keegan, Durcan, Boyle, O'Shea, Parsons, Barrett, Clarke, Doherty, McLoughlin, Moran and DOC in terms of his importance to Mayo from open play over the past number of years.

He is a good free taker, he puts in a shift, he will take scoring responsibility when his team needs it, he is a good finisher - they are his strong points. However, he is pretty easily marked out of a game, he doesn't have much pace, he's not the most physical for a big guy and doesn't win an awful lot in the air, he doesn't have much of a left foot, his movement is not the best, he doesn't really have that flair or craft. If you gave a man marker the strict detail to stay on O'Connor and nullify him, it's pretty easy done - however when you play Mayo it's more than likely you're going to have to leave that post when the runners like Keegan, Durcan, O'Shea, DOC come through with big danger mounting.

He's a decent player but he's not a top level attacker and there is no convincing me he is despite his scoring statistics.

Mayo fans get very defensive of COC but he contributes very little from open play. Mayo have played a running game since the Horan era, they have powerful ball carriers like the O'Shea's, Keegan, Boyle, Durcan, Higgins, Parsons, Vaughan, DOC who all bomb forward and run hard at the opposition which draws a lot of handy frees for them. COC takes the plaudits with the handy score from a 20 yard free for a lot of those players.

He's not a top level forward, if you had somebody like a Murphy, McManus, McBrearty in that Mayo team they would score a hell of a lot more scores. He's a good free taker on the whole but his contribution from open play is not up to the standard of a team gunning for All Irelands.

Mayo were very impressive yesterday and I think they look rejuvenated this year. Aidan O'Shea looks as lean as I've seen him for Mayo and seems to be lasting the pace of the game much better, he hasn't really delivered for Mayo but this is the year.

They will likely pose the biggest threat to Dublin this year with Tyrone next in line.

Kerry look pretty average and were bulled all over the pitch yesterday, they seem to be really lacking in leaders. Mayo destroyed them when the game was in the melting pot.

Not one of them are starters. I don't mean to be rude. But Mulgrew....at a push. The rest are / will be panellists.

I was hoping Grugan could have made a big impact for us this year. Of that group I think Grugan and Mulgrew are probably the only ones capable of pushing into the starting lineup but it will be difficult for them now with a lot of players impressing over the last few weeks.