Messages

Rd 2 fixtures:

Draw
Kerry
Roscommon
Draw

Armagh
Fermanagh
Louth
Donegal

Down
Antrim
Wicklow
Westmeath

Carlow
Laois
Leitrim
Longford

I don't think Louth deserved a draw, they never pushed up until it was too late and threw away a 4 point cushion with 20 mins to go. Only themselves to blame.
Armagh showed a bit of balls to get back into it and then get in front, Soupy and Turbitt with some good scores especially. They got out of jail though, on another day Mulroy will score a couple of those off the ground.
Decision making continues to be an issue when leading in the final minutes as well, just as it was in the penalty shoot out losses to Galway, Derry and Monaghan. McPartlan (shot dropped short), Conor O'Neill (shocking pass) and McElroy (blindly hand passing the ball when on the ground) the main culprits today. Hopefully we can continue to improve as the league goes on.

First senior all ireland win by a Derry team in Croke Park since 1993.

Ballinderry in 2002?

Not according to the Irish Times

Croke Park was being redeveloped when Ballinderry won it. The final was played in Thurles I'm pretty sure.

[avoids any ambiguity]

I'm not a Cavan man but I actually think the way they organise their championship and don't link it to another competition is the best way to do it. To progress from junior to intermediate championship you should have to win the junior championship. The leagues should be a totally separate competition, especially now with the split season. I'm from Armagh and don't like our current system at all, but I accept I'm in the minority. We should also accept every county organises their competitions differently and leave them to it.

That's the way Armagh was for years, we left it behind. The current format is what, maybe 8-10 years on the go? (I'm really not sure)

Think our system works really well- 8 team league divisions with the a/b split leaves teams at a similar level and less hammerings and still having 2 up and 2 down means theres less chance of dead rubbers towards end of the league.

Would prefer a straight knock out championship to the group stages though but don't mind teams getting those extra few games so see the reason for it.

I don't agree with this A/B crap. Your either division 1 or 2 or 3. Hurling leagues are split this way and no one gives a toss about them.

Best thing Inter County Gaelic football did was go to the 4 divisions, 10 or 15 years ago.

Like most other counties, there are three grades in Armagh: senior, intermediate and junior. The stars aligned at some point in 2011 or 2012 (48 senior teams able to field) and it was decided to do away with the old 4 divisions and merge them into 3 divisions; consolidating them with the three respective championship grades. A fairly straight forward concept and it avoids any ambiguity in that there is zero confusion as to what level a club was. No more Division 1 clubs loitering in intermediate and no more Division 2 clubs loitering in Junior.

16 teams in each league soon lead to a few mismatches so the leagues were condensed into A&B, giving a more level playing field, increased competitiveness and less dead rubbers.

Clubs that probably could only dream of senior football got a chance to mix it with the big boys as there was an extra avenue for promotion through the leagues rather than waiting on that elusive championship. Some of the smallest clubs in Armagh have got a taste of senior football (by merit) which was probably unthinkable under the old 4 division set up.

Is the current system in Armagh perfect? No, but it is fair - Cullyhanna's AI win probably the only example that even comes close to an anomaly. Past results on the provincial stage by Armagh clubs would suggest as much.

I understand the reason it was brought in, as much as I'm not a fan of it. Teams were loitering in Div 2 and playing junior and still were unable to win it. Tullysaran in 2011 were knocked out in the first round by Eire Og who were in Div 4. The year before they also lost to a Div 4 team in the final. I don't see that as an unfair system personally. They weren't good enough to win junior so remained at the correct level.
 
I'd also like to see them do away with seeding the championship groups based on the final league positions. At least let there be some sort of jeopardy involved and some interesting groups might pop up, rather than the boring group stages, with no atmosphere whatsoever, that we endured last year. It's clear that the linked championships and leagues are here to stay but there are still plenty of ways to improve what we have at present.

The thing about seeding the championship groups is that it helps prevent dead rubbers in the league towards the end- if it wasnt seeded and a team with a couple of games to go knew they couldn't get promoted or relegated they're left with nothing to play for- but if they've a chance at a better championship draw they'll push to finish 4th in the league rather than 5th. Personally prefer straight knock out for championship.

I think that's my biggest issue with the set up we have. We've tried so hard to make the league mean something by linking it to championship first of all, and now seedings as well, that it's made the championship seem quite flat and uninteresting until it gets to the latter stages.

[avoids any ambiguity]

I'm not a Cavan man but I actually think the way they organise their championship and don't link it to another competition is the best way to do it. To progress from junior to intermediate championship you should have to win the junior championship. The leagues should be a totally separate competition, especially now with the split season. I'm from Armagh and don't like our current system at all, but I accept I'm in the minority. We should also accept every county organises their competitions differently and leave them to it.

That's the way Armagh was for years, we left it behind. The current format is what, maybe 8-10 years on the go? (I'm really not sure)

Think our system works really well- 8 team league divisions with the a/b split leaves teams at a similar level and less hammerings and still having 2 up and 2 down means theres less chance of dead rubbers towards end of the league.

Would prefer a straight knock out championship to the group stages though but don't mind teams getting those extra few games so see the reason for it.

I don't agree with this A/B crap. Your either division 1 or 2 or 3. Hurling leagues are split this way and no one gives a toss about them.

Best thing Inter County Gaelic football did was go to the 4 divisions, 10 or 15 years ago.

Like most other counties, there are three grades in Armagh: senior, intermediate and junior. The stars aligned at some point in 2011 or 2012 (48 senior teams able to field) and it was decided to do away with the old 4 divisions and merge them into 3 divisions; consolidating them with the three respective championship grades. A fairly straight forward concept and it avoids any ambiguity in that there is zero confusion as to what level a club was. No more Division 1 clubs loitering in intermediate and no more Division 2 clubs loitering in Junior.

16 teams in each league soon lead to a few mismatches so the leagues were condensed into A&B, giving a more level playing field, increased competitiveness and less dead rubbers.

Clubs that probably could only dream of senior football got a chance to mix it with the big boys as there was an extra avenue for promotion through the leagues rather than waiting on that elusive championship. Some of the smallest clubs in Armagh have got a taste of senior football (by merit) which was probably unthinkable under the old 4 division set up.

Is the current system in Armagh perfect? No, but it is fair - Cullyhanna's AI win probably the only example that even comes close to an anomaly. Past results on the provincial stage by Armagh clubs would suggest as much.

I understand the reason it was brought in, as much as I'm not a fan of it. Teams were loitering in Div 2 and playing junior and still were unable to win it. Tullysaran in 2011 were knocked out in the first round by Eire Og who were in Div 4. The year before they also lost to a Div 4 team in the final. I don't see that as an unfair system personally. They weren't good enough to win junior so remained at the correct level. Our biggest issue back at that time was the lack of a relegation system in championship. That, along with the dominance of one club at senior championship level, led to clubs regrading to intermediate, with a knock on effect to junior,. The championship set up did need refreshed as a result but relegation play offs were the way to go in my opinion. Down have a similar set up now (Bosco were Div 4 and intermediate in 2023 as they won their relegation play off in the championship, whereas the junior winners were in Div 3).
 
I'd also like to see them do away with seeding the championship groups based on the final league positions. At least let there be some sort of jeopardy involved and some interesting groups might pop up, rather than the boring group stages, with no atmosphere whatsoever, that we endured last year. It's clear that the linked championships and leagues are here to stay but there are still plenty of ways to improve what we have at present.

[Kerry divisional teams are another joke]

I mentioned it before, but the biggest issue seems to be they had played, and maintained their division 1 league status, and played in a junior championship. 

Had it been intermediate championship they had won, I would say people, like myself, could reconcile more with that. 

This is coming from my own point of view where, in Armagh, the leagues and championships are linked, the idea of a senior league team entering a junior championship would seem preposterous, and the outcome would be inevitable. 

In fairness, it's mad a Div 1 team, last year and this year, are playing in Junior Championship.

In south Derry you'd be looked down on if that happened. Clubs would nearly take you to court over a technicality to stay in Div. 1 and play senior championship.

If Arva were maybe Div. 1 and played Intermediate, you'd nearly let it slide but junior!  Kerry divisional teams are another joke

Regardless, the inter-county club championships are fantastic and are very enjoyable over the long winter months.  Great viewing at all levels, between the 2 codes.

At the risk of opening another can of worms, I really think the divisional sides are class as they get lads from small clubs playing a far better standard than they normally would.

Do think something needs done about them sending their 9th best to to intermediate though.

The divisional sides would struggle to be viable I imagine if there were 16 senior teams.
I posted last year about how a divisional structure could work in Armagh, I must dig it out again. Obviously hypothetical, it'll never happen.

Would love to see it in Armagh myself, posted before on it too, run the JFC as normal, when over put a couple of amalgamations/divisional sides into IFC, repeat for Intermediate teams into SFC. The success of it would be heavily reliant on team buy in. Could only be good for County football too.

REGIONS - COUNTY CHAMPIONSHIP
Clubs would compete on their own in the county championship unless relegated to intermediate - when relegated they'd join their regional side the following season. Winners of the intermediate championship would join the senior set up the following year and leave their regional side).

1. SOUTH ARMAGH EAST (cruppen, shanes, corrinshego, whitecross, lissummon, o'hanlons, belleek, killeavy, dromintee)

2. SOUTH ARMAGH WEST (Newtownhamilton, Dorsey, Silverbridge, Cullyhanna, Cullaville, Mullabawn, Forkhill, crossmaglen)

3. MID ARMAGH WEST (Clady, Ballymacnab, Keady, Derrynoose, Middletown, madden, granemore)

4. MID ARMAGH CENTRAL (Pearse Og, An Port Mor, Tullysaran, Grange, Mullabrack, harps)

5. NORTH ARMAGH COUNTRY (Annaghmore, Clonmore, Collegeland, Wolfe Tones, Sarsfields, Ballyhegan, maghery)

6. NORTH ARMAGH TOWN (St Peter's, St Paul's, Clan na Gael, Tir na nog, Eire Og, clann eireann)

Unless you're one of the 8/10/12 senior clubs you'd then join the regional team for the senior county championship. My own view is that 10 clubs would be about the right number as 6 regional teams would get us up to 16 teams in the county championship.
Top 10 clubs in the county at present who would be competing on their own would be along the lines of Cross, CE, clan na gael, Cullyhanna, Madden, silverbridge, killeavy, granemore, ballymacnab, harps?
Senior clubs would also have a senior club championship without regional sides, similar to that of Kerry. Intermediate and junior championship would also run as normal-have a look at Kerry's calendar to figure out dates etc.
This is just a rough example of how it might work, I'm sure there are better minds than mine who could refine this even further.
Some clubs could also fall into another area possibly.
Inevitably some regional sides will be stronger than others but it'll at least give every player in the county an opportunity to compete for the county championship.
Thoughts?

P.s. apologies if I missed out any clubs.

I'm not a Cavan man but I actually think the way they organise their championship and don't link it to another competition is the best way to do it. To progress from junior to intermediate championship you should have to win the junior championship. The leagues should be a totally separate competition, especially now with the split season. I'm from Armagh and don't like our current system at all, but I accept I'm in the minority. We should also accept every county organises their competitions differently and leave them to it.

That's the way Armagh was for years, we left it behind. The current format is what, maybe 8-10 years on the go? (I'm really not sure)

Think our system works really well- 8 team league divisions with the a/b split leaves teams at a similar level and less hammerings and still having 2 up and 2 down means theres less chance of dead rubbers towards end of the league.

Would prefer a straight knock out championship to the group stages though but don't mind teams getting those extra few games so see the reason for it.

I don't agree with this A/B crap. Your either division 1 or 2 or 3. Hurling leagues are split this way and no one gives a toss about them.

Best thing Inter County Gaelic football did was go to the 4 divisions, 10 or 15 years ago.

works really well for us. For example the top 2 teams in Armagh league were Cross and Clann Eirean last year. 15/16 were Shane O'Neills and Grange. The bottom 2 are a lot closer to intermediate level than they would be to top of senior. Because the league is split into 8 instead of 16 Shanes and Grange were able to play teams closer to their own level and so were Cross and Clann Eireann. Gives more competitive and meaningful games imo.

I'd question how well it works given that clubs are being relegated and punished for having county players. If the league and championships weren't linked I'd be okay with it but it's part of the reason a club like Cullyhanna are keen to change the set up now. It also affects the seedings come the group stage of the championship too which is something that should be tidied up. I'd prefer a system like the one in Cavan as I think the championship should dictate what championship you play in the following year, but each to their own.

Ps - didn't Madden play CE in a league decider in 2023, with Cross out of the running by the final game?

PPS- to answer an earlier query, 2011 was the final year of the old league set up. Over the course of the next 3 years the championships and leagues were aligned, negatively impacting a club like Forkhill for example who probably would have won a junior championship, but instead found themselves at intermediate championship level, followed by senior championship, as they kept going on good runs in the league (before A/B was brought in, this was originally only at Junior league level). I know a few Forkhill lads who weren't happy about it. The old set up probably would have seen them reach div 2 with a junior championship along the way, and a crack at the intermediate for a few years, before probably finding their level at division 3 again.

Can we knock this myth that Cullyhanna were relegated because they were missing their county players on the head? They survived relegation, were nowhere near it in fact, for many years in the same scenario. They were missing a lot more than their county players for various reasons.

Relegating any club in the championship based on league positions when they're deprived of their best players is unfair. Forkhill and Shane's were also affected last year, not just Cullyhanna the year before. Link the two competitions by all means but a better system needs to be found for relegation in that case.

Zombie.
Brown eyed girl.
Thriller.

[Kerry divisional teams are another joke]

I mentioned it before, but the biggest issue seems to be they had played, and maintained their division 1 league status, and played in a junior championship. 

Had it been intermediate championship they had won, I would say people, like myself, could reconcile more with that. 

This is coming from my own point of view where, in Armagh, the leagues and championships are linked, the idea of a senior league team entering a junior championship would seem preposterous, and the outcome would be inevitable. 

In fairness, it's mad a Div 1 team, last year and this year, are playing in Junior Championship.

In south Derry you'd be looked down on if that happened. Clubs would nearly take you to court over a technicality to stay in Div. 1 and play senior championship.

If Arva were maybe Div. 1 and played Intermediate, you'd nearly let it slide but junior!  Kerry divisional teams are another joke

Regardless, the inter-county club championships are fantastic and are very enjoyable over the long winter months.  Great viewing at all levels, between the 2 codes.

At the risk of opening another can of worms, I really think the divisional sides are class as they get lads from small clubs playing a far better standard than they normally would.

Do think something needs done about them sending their 9th best to to intermediate though.

The divisional sides would struggle to be viable I imagine if there were 16 senior teams.
I posted last year about how a divisional structure could work in Armagh, I must dig it out again. Obviously hypothetical, it'll never happen.

I'm not a Cavan man but I actually think the way they organise their championship and don't link it to another competition is the best way to do it. To progress from junior to intermediate championship you should have to win the junior championship. The leagues should be a totally separate competition, especially now with the split season. I'm from Armagh and don't like our current system at all, but I accept I'm in the minority. We should also accept every county organises their competitions differently and leave them to it.

That's the way Armagh was for years, we left it behind. The current format is what, maybe 8-10 years on the go? (I'm really not sure)

Think our system works really well- 8 team league divisions with the a/b split leaves teams at a similar level and less hammerings and still having 2 up and 2 down means theres less chance of dead rubbers towards end of the league.

Would prefer a straight knock out championship to the group stages though but don't mind teams getting those extra few games so see the reason for it.

I don't agree with this A/B crap. Your either division 1 or 2 or 3. Hurling leagues are split this way and no one gives a toss about them.

Best thing Inter County Gaelic football did was go to the 4 divisions, 10 or 15 years ago.

works really well for us. For example the top 2 teams in Armagh league were Cross and Clann Eirean last year. 15/16 were Shane O'Neills and Grange. The bottom 2 are a lot closer to intermediate level than they would be to top of senior. Because the league is split into 8 instead of 16 Shanes and Grange were able to play teams closer to their own level and so were Cross and Clann Eireann. Gives more competitive and meaningful games imo.

I'd question how well it works given that clubs are being relegated and punished for having county players. If the league and championships weren't linked I'd be okay with it but it's part of the reason a club like Cullyhanna are keen to change the set up now. It also affects the seedings come the group stage of the championship too which is something that should be tidied up. I'd prefer a system like the one in Cavan as I think the championship should dictate what championship you play in the following year, but each to their own.

Ps - didn't Madden play CE in a league decider in 2023, with Cross out of the running by the final game?

PPS- to answer an earlier query, 2011 was the final year of the old league set up. Over the course of the next 3 years the championships and leagues were aligned, negatively impacting a club like Forkhill for example who probably would have won a junior championship, but instead found themselves at intermediate championship level, followed by senior championship, as they kept going on good runs in the league (before A/B was brought in, this was originally only at Junior league level). I know a few Forkhill lads who weren't happy about it. The old set up probably would have seen them reach div 2 with a junior championship along the way, and a crack at the intermediate for a few years, before probably finding their level at division 3 again.

Anywhere to find fixtures for the upcoming D'alton cup?

I'm not a Cavan man but I actually think the way they organise their championship and don't link it to another competition is the best way to do it. To progress from junior to intermediate championship you should have to win the junior championship. The leagues should be a totally separate competition, especially now with the split season. I'm from Armagh and don't like our current system at all, but I accept I'm in the minority. We should also accept every county organises their competitions differently and leave them to it.

Rd 1 27/28 January


Derry
Dublin
Galway
Draw

Meath
Kildare
Armagh
Donegal

Antrim
Sligo
Offaly
Down

Draw
Tipperary
London
Leitrim

You said in one sentence that everyone wants to be playing at the highest level, then at the finish a run at an all Ireland would provide a spark or a revival, generating an interest and memories.

That's why I said clubs look at these competitions with a possibility of playing at levels ( from the outside) well above other counties representatives

Viewing it as a spark/memories/revival

Having teams play their natural level based on their league standings can only raise the levels within the county

And reduce the amount of times teams from Kerry win for starters.

Yes, I get the whole reason why Arva are in it, and I never joined in on this argument. But leaving it down to individual counties to set the rules when entering competitions is up to them, but when it moves into the provincial stage it should be a fairer set up

I agree with this. I do like the Armagh set up - I may be bias - but I think it is generally fair. Cullyhanna were an aberration this year as they are basically a senior team but due to circumstances the last couple of years were relegated to 2A - basically division 3 - so were an intermediate club

 I'm also from Armagh and have the complete opposite opinion. I don't like how closely linked the league and championship are, especially the seeding system we also apply when doing the draw for the group stages.

What teams that played/won their championships and played in league two of their counties?

Seems nowadays that clubs much prefer to hang back, or drop down to get a run at a provincial championship or all Ireland run

Needs to be looked at in Croke park, if a club wants to drop down and win their county championship in either intermediate or Junior they can't be playing div one football and then represent the county, it should be a div 2 team for intermediate and a div 3 or 4 for junior

You'd soon see a lot of teams cutting their cloth differently

Can't say I've ever heard a club or players say they want to go down to get a run at a championship in a lower grade. From my own experience lads hate getting relegated.

Me either, but I know that Cullyhanna used it as a kick up the hole to motivate themselves to today. By their own admission standards had dropped to the floor within the squad and they found themselves down. They got themselves organised and committed and look where it got them.

The Armagh grading system is about as equitable as you could get. It's based on performance over the course of a season and linked to League position. It's fair to say it probably hampered Cullyhanna having 3 county players which was a big part in their League form dipping. But there were other factors as well and they most certainly didn't manufacture a situation to get themselves relegated. They were there because they simply lost too many games but it was a perfect storm as they were always too good to be playing intermediate. However you only get one chance to make hay at the lower grades and they took it with both hands and that can't do Armagh football any harm.

Cullyhanna had a number of players who weren't available to them who started today.Mccooey, Donnelly, Murray and Connell would not have been playing whenever they were relegated.In addition to that 3 county men. If you put 7 players of that quality into any team they are going to improve it significantly. Would agree the system in Armagh is fair and the circumstances with cullyhanna was probably a one off.  The Armagh intermediate championship was been the most competitive championship in Armagh for as long as I can remember outside of this year.Before this year I can't remember an Armagh team actually winning a game in Ulster.

There was no relegation in Armagh over Covid. To remedy this three teams were relegated in 2022 from Senior to Intermediate league instead of 2, of which Cullyhanna were one.

They would have played almost all of the league without the county men and others listed above didn't play at all. I don't mind the keeper playing either. That's 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 13, 14, 15 from today's side.

Cullyhanna were beaten in an Armagh Senior final in 2016. 9 of those who played a part today started in that game. 

To be fair to Cullyhanna they submitted a proposal to change the relegation structure in Armagh to a play off style system where county commitments would be over and clubs would have a full deck to choose from (which almost certainly would have kept them in senior football if it had been in place in 2022). But they have made the most of it and fair play to them.

The proposal you mention should be adopted as it would make the system a lot fairer. I'd imagine it's something that we'll see introduced over the next few years.