Whats the general take from farmers after they removed relief on agriculture for inheritance?
Is this not gonna force a serious number of farmers out of business over time? What is this government up to?
Quote from: theskull1 on October 31, 2024, 09:11:39 AMWhats the general take from farmers after they removed relief on agriculture for inheritance?
Is this not gonna force a serious number of farmers out of business over time? What is this government up to?
Not fully up on that but farmers do a serious amount of gurning
Quote from: theskull1 on October 31, 2024, 09:11:39 AMWhats the general take from farmers after they removed relief on agriculture for inheritance?
Is this not gonna force a serious number of farmers out of business over time? What is this government up to?
Inheritance tax is f**king disgraceful
There's an ambivalence to it amongst farmers. Obviously negatively affects the English much more than NI given property prices there.
Anything that dissuades wealthy assholes like Jeremy Clarkson buying land as an asset to increase their wealth can only be a good thing. There's lots of examples here too of rich businessmen buying land and immediately rolling in the diggers and dozers to turn it into some kind of country estate. John Magnier and O'Leary in the south are examples there too.
Whether this change of tax affects the farmers or rich businessmen more remains to be seen.
Will it not make it more likely for big businesses to buy up more small farms? The reality is that it doesn't take a large farm to hit the £1m valuation, so it's going to seriously impact small to medium sized family farming businesses. Will these still be viable?
Quote from: trileacman on October 31, 2024, 09:52:37 AMThere's an ambivalence to it amongst farmers. Obviously negatively affects the English much more than NI given property prices there.
Anything that dissuades wealthy assholes like Jeremy Clarkson buying land as an asset to increase their wealth can only be a good thing. There's lots of examples here too of rich businessmen buying land and immediately rolling in the diggers and dozers to turn it into some kind of country estate. John Magnier and O'Leary in the south are examples there too.
Whether this change of tax affects the farmers or rich businessmen more remains to be seen.
At least his land is still being farmed and producing
Quote from: trueblue1234 on October 31, 2024, 09:57:17 AMWill it not make it more likely for big businesses to buy up more small farms? The reality is that it doesn't take a large farm to hit the £1m valuation, so it's going to seriously impact small to medium sized family farming businesses. Will these still be viable?
Billy Gates is yer man. Biggest owner of farmland in the US will he now have a wee eye on the UK?
Quote from: theskull1 on October 31, 2024, 09:11:39 AMWhats the general take from farmers after they removed relief on agriculture for inheritance?
Is this not gonna force a serious number of farmers out of business over time? What is this government up to?
Only for those farms that are worth over £1 million I believe
Quote from: trileacman on October 31, 2024, 09:52:37 AMThere's an ambivalence to it amongst farmers. Obviously negatively affects the English much more than NI given property prices there.
Anything that dissuades wealthy assholes like Jeremy Clarkson buying land as an asset to increase their wealth can only be a good thing. There's lots of examples here too of rich businessmen buying land and immediately rolling in the diggers and dozers to turn it into some kind of country estate. John Magnier and O'Leary in the south are examples there too.
Whether this change of tax affects the farmers or rich businessmen more remains to be seen.
Why?
What i can see happening is the big big boys coming in and buying inherited farms because the children don't have the cash to pay the tax bill. Family farms will dwindle over time and international conglomerates will own everything. It's happened elsewhere.
Quote from: bogball88 on October 31, 2024, 10:27:21 AMQuote from: theskull1 on October 31, 2024, 09:11:39 AMWhats the general take from farmers after they removed relief on agriculture for inheritance?
Is this not gonna force a serious number of farmers out of business over time? What is this government up to?
Only for those farms that are worth over £1 million I believe
a 50 to 70 acre farm would easily hit the £1 Million mark.
I believe the inheritance tax part is on the value of £1M.
There's bound to be ways round it and they'll be found before too long.
https://www.nfuonline.com/updates-and-information/labour-has-no-intention-of-changing-apr-says-shadow-defra-secretary/
Whether you've any sympathy for farmers or not, Labour said they wouldn't touch it and they lied. Absolutely shameless.
Mind you after taking winter fuel payments off pensioners nothing would surprise you.
Quote from: Banks of the Bann on October 31, 2024, 11:50:05 AMhttps://www.nfuonline.com/updates-and-information/labour-has-no-intention-of-changing-apr-says-shadow-defra-secretary/
Whether you've any sympathy for farmers or not, Labour said they wouldn't touch it and they lied. Absolutely shameless.
Mind you after taking winter fuel payments off pensioners nothing would surprise you.
Governments making false claims and people surprised!
Here's the thing, people want better services, better health care, better infrastructure with new roads by passes, improved education structures, and this and that and the other, but no one wants to pay for it.
Two things in life, death and taxes (for the workers that is)
Quote from: Banks of the Bann on October 31, 2024, 11:50:05 AMhttps://www.nfuonline.com/updates-and-information/labour-has-no-intention-of-changing-apr-says-shadow-defra-secretary/
Whether you've any sympathy for farmers or not, Labour said they wouldn't touch it and they lied. Absolutely shameless.
Mind you after taking winter fuel payments off pensioners nothing would surprise you.
Means testing pensioners for winter fuel payments should always have happened, how they've did it could do with a bit of work as there are poor enough pensioners out there who either aren't eligible for benefits or don't know how to claim them.
There are lots of wealthy pensioners out there who don't need it.
I think they've targeted a lot of the right people in this budget although you wouldn't know that as the MSM is in the control of the exceedingly rich who don't want to pay full wack for wee Jonny and Jenny to go to public school or pay more capital gains tax or more tax on their private jets...
The National insurance one I don't know how that will pan out as businesses will want to pass that cost back onto their employees or customers, however they should have done more on the bonuses and wages of these CEO's and extortionate revenues some companies have been making on the back of "the war in Ukraine" and Covid.
Not ideal but if you were fortunate enough to inherit a farm with a value of +£1m cand you were struggling to square up HMRC could you just not sell what you need to cover the tax bill? Is there a timeframe that inheritance tax must be paid within post inheritance?
The filling station owners in South Armagh will be happy enough anyway. However, I'm not sure how you can say that petrol duty should be less than it was a dozen years ago while at the same time borrowing a shedlooad of money, raising other taxes and allegedly trying to promote electric cars and reduce emissions.
You used to be able to "gift" assets to beneficiaries and these were free from IHT as long as you lived for at least seven years after the gift was made. I'm not sure if this is still the case?
Quote from: Pub Bore on October 31, 2024, 01:00:32 PMYou used to be able to "gift" assets to beneficiaries and these were free from IHT as long as you lived for at least seven years after the gift was made. I'm not sure if this is still the case?
I wouldn't be too worried about some of these changes, once the Tories get in again at some point them may change them to suit their friends
Quote from: johnnycool on October 31, 2024, 11:17:01 AMQuote from: bogball88 on October 31, 2024, 10:27:21 AMQuote from: theskull1 on October 31, 2024, 09:11:39 AMWhats the general take from farmers after they removed relief on agriculture for inheritance?
Is this not gonna force a serious number of farmers out of business over time? What is this government up to?
Only for those farms that are worth over £1 million I believe
a 50 to 70 acre farm would easily hit the £1 Million mark.
I believe the inheritance tax part is on the value of £1M.
There's bound to be ways round it and they'll be found before too long.
Look at tax expert Dan Niedle's Twitter account. He also points out that in real terms the farm needs to be worth £2 mill before the new IHT limits kick in.
Quote from: bogball88 on October 31, 2024, 10:27:21 AMQuote from: theskull1 on October 31, 2024, 09:11:39 AMWhats the general take from farmers after they removed relief on agriculture for inheritance?
Is this not gonna force a serious number of farmers out of business over time? What is this government up to?
Only for those farms that are worth over £1 million I believe
That wouldnt take a huge farm to be honest.
Quote from: johnnycool on October 31, 2024, 12:16:24 PMQuote from: Banks of the Bann on October 31, 2024, 11:50:05 AMhttps://www.nfuonline.com/updates-and-information/labour-has-no-intention-of-changing-apr-says-shadow-defra-secretary/
Whether you've any sympathy for farmers or not, Labour said they wouldn't touch it and they lied. Absolutely shameless.
Mind you after taking winter fuel payments off pensioners nothing would surprise me.
Means testing pensioners for winter fuel payments should always have happened, how they've did it could do with a bit of work as there are poor enough pensioners out there who either aren't eligible for benefits or don't know how to claim them.
There are lots of wealthy pensioners out there who don't need it.
I think they've targeted a lot of the right people in this budget although you wouldn't know that as the MSM is in the control of the exceedingly rich who don't want to pay full wack for wee Jonny and Jenny to go to public school or pay more capital gains tax or more tax on their private jets...
The National insurance one I don't know how that will pan out as businesses will want to pass that cost back onto their employees or customers, however they should have done more on the bonuses and wages of these CEO's and extortionate revenues some companies have been making on the back of "the war in Ukraine" and Covid.
You only get winter fuel allowance if you claim pension credit. Which you get if you get less than £11,400 per week.
The UK 'living wage' as an annual salary would be about £24k.
It's not just wealthy pensioners that are losing out. Labour are taking the piss.
p.s. any specific reason why "the war in Ukraine" is in quotation marks? Is there not a war in Ukraine?
Quote from: Banks of the Bann on October 31, 2024, 02:51:51 PMQuote from: johnnycool on October 31, 2024, 12:16:24 PMQuote from: Banks of the Bann on October 31, 2024, 11:50:05 AMhttps://www.nfuonline.com/updates-and-information/labour-has-no-intention-of-changing-apr-says-shadow-defra-secretary/
Whether you've any sympathy for farmers or not, Labour said they wouldn't touch it and they lied. Absolutely shameless.
Mind you after taking winter fuel payments off pensioners nothing would surprise me.
Means testing pensioners for winter fuel payments should always have happened, how they've did it could do with a bit of work as there are poor enough pensioners out there who either aren't eligible for benefits or don't know how to claim them.
There are lots of wealthy pensioners out there who don't need it.
I think they've targeted a lot of the right people in this budget although you wouldn't know that as the MSM is in the control of the exceedingly rich who don't want to pay full wack for wee Jonny and Jenny to go to public school or pay more capital gains tax or more tax on their private jets...
The National insurance one I don't know how that will pan out as businesses will want to pass that cost back onto their employees or customers, however they should have done more on the bonuses and wages of these CEO's and extortionate revenues some companies have been making on the back of "the war in Ukraine" and Covid.
You only get winter fuel allowance if you claim pension credit. Which you get if you get less than £11,400 per week.
The UK 'living wage' as an annual salary would be about £24k.
It's not just wealthy pensioners that are losing out. Labour are taking the piss.
p.s. any specific reason why "the war in Ukraine" is in quotation marks? Is there not a war in Ukraine?
Year I presume.
I also point to the fact that the way they're doing it isn't the best, but they definitely should be means testing this payment.
The war in Ukraine was the reason given for the huge hike in fuel costs which were passed onto the end customers however what isn't being mentioned was the historically high profits the fuel companies were making on the back of this excuse.
This was one of the main drivers of inflation and not the war in Ukraine which was purely the excuse they needed.
This is still happening by the way and the Labour Gov should have come down hard on it, but chose not to.
This wont affect the vast majority of farmers here and as pointed out before the regime with change and so will the policies.
What is more concerning from a farmers point of view over here is that the money that was always ring fenced for farm payments is now being included in the block grant which is a recipe for disaster now that stormount have complete control over it.
It would be better for all to get rid of the subsidies and pay us farmers a fair price for what we produce.
Quote from: Hereiam on October 31, 2024, 03:21:54 PMThis wont affect the vast majority of farmers here and as pointed out before the regime with change and so will the policies.
What is more concerning from a farmers point of view over here is that the money that was always ring fenced for farm payments is now being included in the block grant which is a recipe for disaster now that stormount have complete control over it.
It would be better for all to get rid of the subsidies and pay us farmers a fair price for what we produce.
In an ideal word that would happen, but the supermarkets would only pass the cost on to a farmer. If you look at the breakdown of the price of beef or anything, the farmer is getting a very small percentage of what we pay in the shop
Quote from: RedHand88 on October 31, 2024, 10:43:24 AMWhat i can see happening is the big big boys coming in and buying inherited farms because the children don't have the cash to pay the tax bill. Family farms will dwindle over time and international conglomerates will own everything. It's happened elsewhere.
More or less what I thought reading about it at first. Without going full tinfoil hat, it seems sinister to me. I don't know much about farming unions in the UK or the North, but I haven't seen or heard much by way of protest.
Access to or control of energy is one thing, but food production is next level again. I've seen bits over the years about how the Chinese are taking over vast amounts of agricultural and mineral-rich lands throughout Africa. It seems there is a huge push towards large-scale highly intensive production units that are worlds apart from small family holdings.
Even if you could afford to borrow/ mortgage against it, unless you were stepping into a ready-made, modern setup, it would surely make upgrading or expanding an impossibility.
Should go full France. Block the roads with tractors, slurry over Downing Street etc.
Quote from: Substandard on October 31, 2024, 07:44:15 PMQuote from: RedHand88 on October 31, 2024, 10:43:24 AMWhat i can see happening is the big big boys coming in and buying inherited farms because the children don't have the cash to pay the tax bill. Family farms will dwindle over time and international conglomerates will own everything. It's happened elsewhere.
More or less what I thought reading about it at first. Without going full tinfoil hat, it seems sinister to me. I don't know much about farming unions in the UK or the North, but I haven't seen or heard much by way of protest.
Access to or control of energy is one thing, but food production is next level again. I've seen bits over the years about how the Chinese are taking over vast amounts of agricultural and mineral-rich lands throughout Africa. It seems there is a huge push towards large-scale highly intensive production units that are worlds apart from small family holdings.
Even if you could afford to borrow/ mortgage against it, unless you were stepping into a ready-made, modern setup, it would surely make upgrading or expanding an impossibility.
All well and good but the land in large parts of Ireland is very poor. Boggy land and mountains.
The big farmers on the Golden Vale are well sorted over decades but the small farmer in the west, or in Leitrim or in the Sperrins are finding it tough. The land just isn't good enough to develop into 'a Golden Vale'.
Quote from: Armagh18 on October 31, 2024, 09:37:37 AMQuote from: theskull1 on October 31, 2024, 09:11:39 AMWhats the general take from farmers after they removed relief on agriculture for inheritance?
Is this not gonna force a serious number of farmers out of business over time? What is this government up to?
Inheritance tax is f**king disgraceful
You think it's disgraceful in general? Any particular reason?
It's surely one of the more 'fair' taxes and also causes less drag on the economy than the likes of income tax.
Quote from: ranch on October 31, 2024, 10:53:30 PMQuote from: Armagh18 on October 31, 2024, 09:37:37 AMQuote from: theskull1 on October 31, 2024, 09:11:39 AMWhats the general take from farmers after they removed relief on agriculture for inheritance?
Is this not gonna force a serious number of farmers out of business over time? What is this government up to?
Inheritance tax is f**king disgraceful
You think it's disgraceful in general? Any particular reason?
It's surely one of the more 'fair' taxes and also causes less drag on the economy than the likes of income tax.
The question wasn't adressed to me, but IHT is brutal as it is taxing money / assets that are what is left after the earnings were already taxed by the government at that time. Why can the deceased not pass along his assets to his family members without the government getting a second bite at the deceased person's earnings / wealth?
Yip getting tax again on money already taxed on the parents. Always seen it to be daylight robbery myself (And no, not a farmer)
Quote from: Smokin Joe on November 01, 2024, 01:08:37 AMQuote from: ranch on October 31, 2024, 10:53:30 PMQuote from: Armagh18 on October 31, 2024, 09:37:37 AMQuote from: theskull1 on October 31, 2024, 09:11:39 AMWhats the general take from farmers after they removed relief on agriculture for inheritance?
Is this not gonna force a serious number of farmers out of business over time? What is this government up to?
Inheritance tax is f**king disgraceful
You think it's disgraceful in general? Any particular reason?
It's surely one of the more 'fair' taxes and also causes less drag on the economy than the likes of income tax.
The question wasn't adressed to me, but IHT is brutal as it is taxing money / assets that are what is left after the earnings were already taxed by the government at that time. Why can the deceased not pass along his assets to his family members without the government getting a second bite at the deceased person's earnings / wealth?
Daylight robbery. Agreed. Especially for farmers, theres very few of them would have the cash on hand to pay a big inheritance tax bill, even if the land/farm may be worth millions it probably isn't that profitable.
While I agree I think it is a pretty high bar before you get hit with inheritance tax. Even this farming one here there is some speculation that you'd be up around 2 million of land before you'd get hit.
I'm undecided about inheritance tax.
On the one hand, I'd be intrinsically in favour of any measures that might dissuade the "normal rich" from gathering up land and houses that could instead make "normal folk" happy at a price point lower than is currently paid.
But on the other hand, rural environments work better when left in the hands of rural folk. And if they're squeezed out, the inevitable outcome of this is that super rich people and organisations will become the landowners. And slowly but surely we enter medieval times again.
Welcome to a Labour government. Never should have got rid of the Conservatives.
I assume it's hard to get a budget where everyone is happy
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 01, 2024, 08:14:37 AMWelcome to a Labour government. Never should have got rid of the Conservatives.
Yeah they were all great lads... Boris as PM and Truss as Chancellor would do the trick and get us back on the right track!
Quote from: johnnycool on October 31, 2024, 03:16:46 PMQuote from: Banks of the Bann on October 31, 2024, 02:51:51 PMQuote from: johnnycool on October 31, 2024, 12:16:24 PMQuote from: Banks of the Bann on October 31, 2024, 11:50:05 AMhttps://www.nfuonline.com/updates-and-information/labour-has-no-intention-of-changing-apr-says-shadow-defra-secretary/
Whether you've any sympathy for farmers or not, Labour said they wouldn't touch it and they lied. Absolutely shameless.
Mind you after taking winter fuel payments off pensioners nothing would surprise me.
Means testing pensioners for winter fuel payments should always have happened, how they've did it could do with a bit of work as there are poor enough pensioners out there who either aren't eligible for benefits or don't know how to claim them.
There are lots of wealthy pensioners out there who don't need it.
I think they've targeted a lot of the right people in this budget although you wouldn't know that as the MSM is in the control of the exceedingly rich who don't want to pay full wack for wee Jonny and Jenny to go to public school or pay more capital gains tax or more tax on their private jets...
The National insurance one I don't know how that will pan out as businesses will want to pass that cost back onto their employees or customers, however they should have done more on the bonuses and wages of these CEO's and extortionate revenues some companies have been making on the back of "the war in Ukraine" and Covid.
You only get winter fuel allowance if you claim pension credit. Which you get if you get less than £11,400 per week.
The UK 'living wage' as an annual salary would be about £24k.
It's not just wealthy pensioners that are losing out. Labour are taking the piss.
p.s. any specific reason why "the war in Ukraine" is in quotation marks? Is there not a war in Ukraine?
Year I presume.
I also point to the fact that the way they're doing it isn't the best, but they definitely should be means testing this payment.
The war in Ukraine was the reason given for the huge hike in fuel costs which were passed onto the end customers however what isn't being mentioned was the historically high profits the fuel companies were making on the back of this excuse.
This was one of the main drivers of inflation and not the war in Ukraine which was purely the excuse they needed.
This is still happening by the way and the Labour Gov should have come down hard on it, but chose not to.
Yes, I meant per annum, not per week.
Means test if you must but for Labour to say someone scraping by on the measly UK pension of £11.4k doesn't need it is ridiculous.
Half what is recognised as a living wage.
Quote from: Banks of the Bann on November 01, 2024, 11:17:47 AMQuote from: johnnycool on October 31, 2024, 03:16:46 PMQuote from: Banks of the Bann on October 31, 2024, 02:51:51 PMQuote from: johnnycool on October 31, 2024, 12:16:24 PMQuote from: Banks of the Bann on October 31, 2024, 11:50:05 AMhttps://www.nfuonline.com/updates-and-information/labour-has-no-intention-of-changing-apr-says-shadow-defra-secretary/
Whether you've any sympathy for farmers or not, Labour said they wouldn't touch it and they lied. Absolutely shameless.
Mind you after taking winter fuel payments off pensioners nothing would surprise me.
Means testing pensioners for winter fuel payments should always have happened, how they've did it could do with a bit of work as there are poor enough pensioners out there who either aren't eligible for benefits or don't know how to claim them.
There are lots of wealthy pensioners out there who don't need it.
I think they've targeted a lot of the right people in this budget although you wouldn't know that as the MSM is in the control of the exceedingly rich who don't want to pay full wack for wee Jonny and Jenny to go to public school or pay more capital gains tax or more tax on their private jets...
The National insurance one I don't know how that will pan out as businesses will want to pass that cost back onto their employees or customers, however they should have done more on the bonuses and wages of these CEO's and extortionate revenues some companies have been making on the back of "the war in Ukraine" and Covid.
You only get winter fuel allowance if you claim pension credit. Which you get if you get less than £11,400 per week.
The UK 'living wage' as an annual salary would be about £24k.
It's not just wealthy pensioners that are losing out. Labour are taking the piss.
p.s. any specific reason why "the war in Ukraine" is in quotation marks? Is there not a war in Ukraine?
Year I presume.
I also point to the fact that the way they're doing it isn't the best, but they definitely should be means testing this payment.
The war in Ukraine was the reason given for the huge hike in fuel costs which were passed onto the end customers however what isn't being mentioned was the historically high profits the fuel companies were making on the back of this excuse.
This was one of the main drivers of inflation and not the war in Ukraine which was purely the excuse they needed.
This is still happening by the way and the Labour Gov should have come down hard on it, but chose not to.
Yes, I meant per annum, not per week.
Means test if you must but for Labour to say someone scraping by on the measly UK pension of £11.4k doesn't need it is ridiculous.
Half what is recognised as a living wage.
Historically the assumption was that most people did not have housing costs in retirement as their homes were paid off. Unfortunately that is increasingly not the case and is only going to get worse.
I know in my place there are a good few colleagues, who i would class as switched on generally, who seem to have a complete blindspot to pension requirements. Will just auto enrol for the minimum amount and have no sense as to what that actually means in a few years. Was talking to one guy who was pleased that he thought he would have a £200k pension pot at retirement in about 15 years. Had no idea that would get him less than £1k a month if he was to buy an annuity
The 'big farmer' has ended up in a hole. Egged on by agricultural colleges, Going for Growth strategy etc, and sometimes their own greed, they've spent fortunes building large scale farms, and now they're under the pump because of the state of Lough Neagh, and now the inheritance tax swipe. A lot of those big farms are easily worth 3 or 4 million. If the farmer gets hit by a bus, the family now get hit with an eye watering tax bill. Sleepless nights for some of them.
Quote from: LC on October 31, 2024, 12:36:01 PMNot ideal but if you were fortunate enough to inherit a farm with a value of +£1m cand you were struggling to square up HMRC could you just not sell what you need to cover the tax bill? Is there a timeframe that inheritance tax must be paid within post inheritance?
Probably not that simple. Selling land would also be subject to capital gains I imagine. think of a 3rd generation farm, orignally it could have been a couple of thousand an acre in value, now worth 12K and acre. So capital gains due on the profit, meaning to foot the inheritance tax bill the entire farm may need to be sold.
I think it's scandalous.
Farm assets would quickly hit the 1M mark - especially when you take in the family home sitting on the farm.
I'd suggest the majority of small farms in NI would be affected by this.
Quote from: tbrick18 on November 01, 2024, 11:49:59 AMQuote from: LC on October 31, 2024, 12:36:01 PMNot ideal but if you were fortunate enough to inherit a farm with a value of +£1m cand you were struggling to square up HMRC could you just not sell what you need to cover the tax bill? Is there a timeframe that inheritance tax must be paid within post inheritance?
Probably not that simple. Selling land would also be subject to capital gains I imagine. think of a 3rd generation farm, orignally it could have been a couple of thousand an acre in value, now worth 12K and acre. So capital gains due on the profit, meaning to foot the inheritance tax bill the entire farm may need to be sold.
I think it's scandalous.
Farm assets would quickly hit the 1M mark - especially when you take in the family home sitting on the farm.
I'd suggest the majority of small farms in NI would be affected by this.
Yeah 1m really isn't that much in terms of land/farm property.
We are being absolutely shafted.
Ones weeping about not getting a million for their farms and others can't afford to heat their house..
I deal with farmers every day, they could buy and sell ya. No flies on them
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 01, 2024, 12:09:12 PMQuote from: tbrick18 on November 01, 2024, 11:49:59 AMQuote from: LC on October 31, 2024, 12:36:01 PMNot ideal but if you were fortunate enough to inherit a farm with a value of +£1m cand you were struggling to square up HMRC could you just not sell what you need to cover the tax bill? Is there a timeframe that inheritance tax must be paid within post inheritance?
Probably not that simple. Selling land would also be subject to capital gains I imagine. think of a 3rd generation farm, orignally it could have been a couple of thousand an acre in value, now worth 12K and acre. So capital gains due on the profit, meaning to foot the inheritance tax bill the entire farm may need to be sold.
I think it's scandalous.
Farm assets would quickly hit the 1M mark - especially when you take in the family home sitting on the farm.
I'd suggest the majority of small farms in NI would be affected by this.
Yeah 1m really isn't that much in terms of land/farm property.
We are being absolutely shafted.
I was wondering what % of farms fall into this bracket. Can anyone shed light? Not a farmer myself.
Hillary Benn says it'll only affect 500 farms next year but then assuming it's 500 every year (maybe more depending on the value of land inflating), the numbers could really rack up.
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 01, 2024, 12:52:34 PMQuote from: Armagh18 on November 01, 2024, 12:09:12 PMQuote from: tbrick18 on November 01, 2024, 11:49:59 AMQuote from: LC on October 31, 2024, 12:36:01 PMNot ideal but if you were fortunate enough to inherit a farm with a value of +£1m cand you were struggling to square up HMRC could you just not sell what you need to cover the tax bill? Is there a timeframe that inheritance tax must be paid within post inheritance?
Probably not that simple. Selling land would also be subject to capital gains I imagine. think of a 3rd generation farm, orignally it could have been a couple of thousand an acre in value, now worth 12K and acre. So capital gains due on the profit, meaning to foot the inheritance tax bill the entire farm may need to be sold.
I think it's scandalous.
Farm assets would quickly hit the 1M mark - especially when you take in the family home sitting on the farm.
I'd suggest the majority of small farms in NI would be affected by this.
Yeah 1m really isn't that much in terms of land/farm property.
We are being absolutely shafted.
I was wondering what % of farms fall into this bracket. Can anyone shed light? Not a farmer myself.
Hillary Benn says it'll only affect 500 farms next year but then assuming it's 500 every year (maybe more depending on the value of land inflating), the numbers could really rack up.
I wouldn't heed a word from Hilary Benn. I thought he might be ok, but he's as political as the rest of them.
Is this when the farmer dies?
Can he, when alive, not just write a will? Or does this involve a tax, regardless of who and when the will is made?
Quote from: marty34 on November 01, 2024, 01:57:30 PMIs this when the farmer dies?
Can he, when alive, not just write a will? Or does this involve a tax, regardless of who and when the will is made?
Don't think a will changes anything.
Someone had said it can be gifted 7 years before the original owner dies without a tax burden but not sure if thats true.
That 7 year thing is standard I think. Non farmers do that with houses so they don't have to pay for their nursing homes etc.
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 01, 2024, 02:18:54 PMThat 7 year thing is standard I think. Non farmers do that with houses so they don't have to pay for their nursing homes etc.
Fairly standard estate planning is to transfer assets to children as the IHT tapers down and disappears if you survive 7 years. It has to be a gift without reservation though, i.e. you cant transfer your house to your kids and then live in it rent free as the HMRC will look through that.
Trusts are a way of reducing IHT as well that give a bit more flexibility and could be useful for some farmers after the Budget. However, they are more complex to set up and will need legal structuring.
One thing that has not been mentioned too much is bringing pensions "in scope" for inheritance tax. Currently, private pensions are excluded from inheritance tax. Now pension pots will now be included in IHT calculations from 2027 so the pension pot will get added to property and shares as part of potentially chargeable assets using up the allowance.
Most of these measures will affect "wealthier" people but it will hit farmers badly as you have to have the cash to pay the tax.
You'd be better spending every penny before you die. The boy whp never worked a day in his life gets a free room in a nursing home next to someone who worked all their life and had to sell everything to pay for their room. Live rich and die broke.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on November 01, 2024, 04:21:35 PMYou'd be better spending every penny before you die. The boy whp never worked a day in his life gets a free room in a nursing home next to someone who worked all their life and had to sell everything to pay for their room. Live rich and die broke.
True...or stash the cash!
I suppose all this comes down to sensible planning ahead.
I read and hear of loads of cases where eldery farmers leave no will or leave it to one person and the rest of family challenge it in the courts. Then the family fall out and it causes a big split.
Not nice for anyone.
You come in penny-less, leave penny-less
I'll be making sure it's spent. The kids are getting money now, once they've full time jobs, they'll be paying their own way in life
Quote from: TabClear on November 01, 2024, 03:19:24 PMQuote from: imtommygunn on November 01, 2024, 02:18:54 PMThat 7 year thing is standard I think. Non farmers do that with houses so they don't have to pay for their nursing homes etc.
Fairly standard estate planning is to transfer assets to children as the IHT tapers down and disappears if you survive 7 years. It has to be a gift without reservation though, i.e. you cant transfer your house to your kids and then live in it rent free as the HMRC will look through that.
Trusts are a way of reducing IHT as well that give a bit more flexibility and could be useful for some farmers after the Budget. However, they are more complex to set up and will need legal structuring.
One thing that has not been mentioned too much is bringing pensions "in scope" for inheritance tax. Currently, private pensions are excluded from inheritance tax. Now pension pots will now be included in IHT calculations from 2027 so the pension pot will get added to property and shares as part of potentially chargeable assets using up the allowance.
Most of these measures will affect "wealthier" people but it will hit farmers badly as you have to have the cash to pay the tax.
So, if you've paid off your mortgage, you can't transfer your house to a son/daughter, and continue to live in the house?
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 01, 2024, 02:01:56 PMQuote from: marty34 on November 01, 2024, 01:57:30 PMIs this when the farmer dies?
Can he, when alive, not just write a will? Or does this involve a tax, regardless of who and when the will is made?
Don't think a will changes anything.
Someone had said it can be gifted 7 years before the original owner dies without a tax burden but not sure if thats true.
yeah the 7 year thing is true or at least it was unless its changed recently
Quote from: AustinPowers on November 01, 2024, 05:42:33 PMQuote from: TabClear on November 01, 2024, 03:19:24 PMQuote from: imtommygunn on November 01, 2024, 02:18:54 PMThat 7 year thing is standard I think. Non farmers do that with houses so they don't have to pay for their nursing homes etc.
Fairly standard estate planning is to transfer assets to children as the IHT tapers down and disappears if you survive 7 years. It has to be a gift without reservation though, i.e. you cant transfer your house to your kids and then live in it rent free as the HMRC will look through that.
Trusts are a way of reducing IHT as well that give a bit more flexibility and could be useful for some farmers after the Budget. However, they are more complex to set up and will need legal structuring.
One thing that has not been mentioned too much is bringing pensions "in scope" for inheritance tax. Currently, private pensions are excluded from inheritance tax. Now pension pots will now be included in IHT calculations from 2027 so the pension pot will get added to property and shares as part of potentially chargeable assets using up the allowance.
Most of these measures will affect "wealthier" people but it will hit farmers badly as you have to have the cash to pay the tax.
So, if you've paid off your mortgage, you can't transfer your house to a son/daughter, and continue to live in the house?
Never knew that. Maybe the law but in practice the gifting to a child and living in it happens and it works.
Just sell it.. spend the money on those year long cruises until the money runs out
Come back with no money and get free accommodation in one of those assisted living places!
Quote from: AustinPowers on November 01, 2024, 05:42:33 PMQuote from: TabClear on November 01, 2024, 03:19:24 PMQuote from: imtommygunn on November 01, 2024, 02:18:54 PMThat 7 year thing is standard I think. Non farmers do that with houses so they don't have to pay for their nursing homes etc.
Fairly standard estate planning is to transfer assets to children as the IHT tapers down and disappears if you survive 7 years. It has to be a gift without reservation though, i.e. you cant transfer your house to your kids and then live in it rent free as the HMRC will look through that.
Trusts are a way of reducing IHT as well that give a bit more flexibility and could be useful for some farmers after the Budget. However, they are more complex to set up and will need legal structuring.
One thing that has not been mentioned too much is bringing pensions "in scope" for inheritance tax. Currently, private pensions are excluded from inheritance tax. Now pension pots will now be included in IHT calculations from 2027 so the pension pot will get added to property and shares as part of potentially chargeable assets using up the allowance.
Most of these measures will affect "wealthier" people but it will hit farmers badly as you have to have the cash to pay the tax.
So, if you've paid off your mortgage, you can't transfer your house to a son/daughter, and continue to live in the house?
You can, I'm not sure if the specifics or how it's done but you definitely can.
It's the same thing, 7 years I thik is still there..
Did our will the other day, we split the house up when doing a need deed, I owe 50% the wife owes 50% .. the government can't take half a house apparently, so if one person went into care it wouldn't come from payments off the house.
Kids are the trustees also, though a friend mentioned that it might make it harder for them to get a mortgage? Need to check that out.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 02, 2024, 08:04:36 AMIt's the same thing, 7 years I thik is still there..
Did our will the other day, we split the house up when doing a need deed, I owe 50% the wife owes 50% .. the government can't take half a house apparently, so if one person went into care it wouldn't come from payments off the house.
Kids are the trustees also, though a friend mentioned that it might make it harder for them to get a mortgage? Need to check that out.
We've had this scenario twice in the last 10 years. 6 years ago my wife's mother was diagnosed with alzheimer's at age 64. She and her siblings had to sell her house and put her in the care home. The solicitors at the time told them about the 7 year thing. Basically all those funds were drained paying for the care home. She's still there but the state is now paying.
However, 4 years ago my mother was showing signs of dementia. She was 90 at the time. My sister and I consulted our solicitor and he checked things out with the revenue. As it turns out they only go back two years for the care home scenario, as opposed to inheritance after passing. We were able to transfer my mother's assets (house and farm) to my sister. She went into the care home, which only drained her savings. She's since passed and her will was still honoured even though the assets were in my sisters name.
Definitely worth checking out with your sollictor.
God help the farmers when their main spokes person openly admitted he bought his farm to avoid paying Inheritance Tax;
Clarksons tax avoidance farm (https://x.com/i/status/1858878361344356775)
And then you've chief Brexiteer Bad-Enoch telling them she's got their backs!!
Fair fucks to them. A few load of slurry sprayed on Keir and the rest would be perfect
And this fancy dress up tosser
(https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/b66e96b7837155c9bff267eca9561b749ef0d499/0_0_6000_4002/master/6000.jpg?width=700&dpr=2&s=none&crop=none)
Andrew Lloyd Webber there too ;D
Auld Farage cares rightly about farmers I'd say.
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 19, 2024, 03:29:11 PMAndrew Lloyd Webber
Definitely the first person you think of when you think of a farmer
Quote from: RedHand88 on November 02, 2024, 07:35:10 AMQuote from: AustinPowers on November 01, 2024, 05:42:33 PMQuote from: TabClear on November 01, 2024, 03:19:24 PMQuote from: imtommygunn on November 01, 2024, 02:18:54 PMThat 7 year thing is standard I think. Non farmers do that with houses so they don't have to pay for their nursing homes etc.
Fairly standard estate planning is to transfer assets to children as the IHT tapers down and disappears if you survive 7 years. It has to be a gift without reservation though, i.e. you cant transfer your house to your kids and then live in it rent free as the HMRC will look through that.
Trusts are a way of reducing IHT as well that give a bit more flexibility and could be useful for some farmers after the Budget. However, they are more complex to set up and will need legal structuring.
One thing that has not been mentioned too much is bringing pensions "in scope" for inheritance tax. Currently, private pensions are excluded from inheritance tax. Now pension pots will now be included in IHT calculations from 2027 so the pension pot will get added to property and shares as part of potentially chargeable assets using up the allowance.
Most of these measures will affect "wealthier" people but it will hit farmers badly as you have to have the cash to pay the tax.
So, if you've paid off your mortgage, you can't transfer your house to a son/daughter, and continue to live in the house?
You can, I'm not sure if the specifics or how it's done but you definitely can.
You can if you remain as a tenant and pay rent , payment of which is transparent and regular.
HMRC/ social services ( care home)are looking into all these types of scenarios
Quote from: Gabriel_Hurl on November 19, 2024, 03:35:21 PMQuote from: imtommygunn on November 19, 2024, 03:29:11 PMAndrew Lloyd Webber
Definitely the first person you think of when you think of a farmer
He "farms" just under 5,000 acres.
That's the sort of cúnt that should be paying Inheritance tax...
Quote from: johnnycool on November 19, 2024, 02:30:07 PMGod help the farmers when their main spokes person openly admitted he bought his farm to avoid paying Inheritance Tax;
Clarksons tax avoidance farm (https://x.com/i/status/1858878361344356775)
And then you've chief Brexiteer Bad-Enoch telling them she's got their backs!!
Made an absolute **** of there by Derbyshire (I think?) while trying to ridicule her himself ;D ;D ;D
Wonder if this tax stays around and isn't overturned will it change those farmers of a Unionist mindset that they'd be better off in a UI.
Certainly adds more fuel to that fire.
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 19, 2024, 02:34:18 PMFair fucks to them. A few load of slurry sprayed on Keir and the rest would be perfect
Amen to that
Quote from: 93-DY-SAM on November 19, 2024, 05:03:15 PMWonder if this tax stays around and isn't overturned will it change those farmers of a Unionist mindset that they'd be better off in a UI.
Certainly adds more fuel to that fire.
I doubt it. Sure didn't some say they'd rather eat grass.
The neighbouring farm's grass, obviously.
Quote from: AustinPowers on November 19, 2024, 05:41:37 PMQuote from: Armagh18 on November 19, 2024, 02:34:18 PMFair fucks to them. A few load of slurry sprayed on Keir and the rest would be perfect
Amen to that
We complain non stop about our public services and waiting lists etc and then when a government proposes a tax on the very wealthy landowners to pay for improvements we get most people complaining again. I've read a number of top economists saying this will only affect 13% of farmers and the ones it will affect can well afford it. People like clarkson and dyson who buy up huge amounts of land to avoid paying taxes are exactly the reason this tax is being introduced.
Quote from: lenny on November 19, 2024, 06:36:34 PMQuote from: AustinPowers on November 19, 2024, 05:41:37 PMQuote from: Armagh18 on November 19, 2024, 02:34:18 PMFair fucks to them. A few load of slurry sprayed on Keir and the rest would be perfect
Amen to that
We complain non stop about our public services and waiting lists etc and then when a government proposes a tax on the very wealthy landowners to pay for improvements we get most people complaining again. I've read a number of top economists saying this will only affect 13% of farmers and the ones it will affect can well afford it. People like clarkson and dyson who buy up huge amounts of land to avoid paying taxes are exactly the reason this tax is being introduced.
I've never met a poor farmer. Some are tighter than others, but never met one that can't make ends meet. Farming isn't easy work either but they've had it good for long enough. Don't forget what they've done to Lough Neagh as well, barely a slap on the wrist too.
No sympathy for people earning millions paying more tax, who got out of paying tax that the average earner has to pay
They'll get not much sympathy from Joe Public either
The media have framed it as an outrage though so that significantly influences Joe public's opinion of it. Whether it is an outrage or not is another matter.
Quote from: imtommygunn on November 19, 2024, 07:36:35 PMThe media have framed it as an outrage though so that significantly influences Joe public's opinion of it. Whether it is an outrage or not is another matter.
I've no sympathy for Joe Public who believes what social media tells them ;)
If Labour had an ounce, they'd have known this would rile the farmers massively. They were arrogant and out of touch on this topic. By that logic it will take them a while to realise this is the wrong hill to die on.
Clarkson is also an arrogant p***k and while he draws attention, it was getting that anyway.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 07:51:17 PMQuote from: imtommygunn on November 19, 2024, 07:36:35 PMThe media have framed it as an outrage though so that significantly influences Joe public's opinion of it. Whether it is an outrage or not is another matter.
I've no sympathy for Joe Public who believes what social media tells them ;)
I don't know what is the truth but I have read that less than 500 farms will be impacted. I wonder is this accurate.
If Farage is there, Clarkson too, then it'd be the wealthty impacted you'd imagine with those two charlatans.
Did I not read it affects 0.004 of farms, why is this story front and centre?
Quote from: JoG2 on November 19, 2024, 08:01:50 PMDid I not read it affects 0.004 of farms, why is this story front and centre?
That's definitely nowhere near correct, wherever you read it.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 07:32:50 PMNo sympathy for people earning millions paying more tax, who got out of paying tax that the average earner has to pay
They'll get not much sympathy from Joe Public either
The farm can be worth a million but be earning nothing. Lots of ordinary farmers impacted by this. Not just the Jeremy Clarksons of the world.
Quote from: oakleaflad on November 19, 2024, 08:06:59 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 07:32:50 PMNo sympathy for people earning millions paying more tax, who got out of paying tax that the average earner has to pay
They'll get not much sympathy from Joe Public either
The farm can be worth a million but be earning nothing. Lots of ordinary farmers impacted by this. Not just the Jeremy Clarksons of the world.
How many is lots?
_et's just break down the facts behind the hysteria of the right wing media, the deceitful Conservatives and loud-mouthed tax dodgers like Clarkson.
There are 209,000 farms in Britain of various sizes.
"Paul Johnson, the director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS), an independent economy think-tank, told Sky News: "The changes will affect a remarkably small number of some of the most valuable farms. He added: "[Farms are] still more generously treated, actually, than farms used to be in decades past."
OH NO!
The Treasury estimates that 500 estates including agricultural land will be affected by the_agricultural ANYWAY property relief reform per year. Dan Neidle, an independent tax expert, says the number of actual farms affected is likely to be below 500 per year.
here were a total of 462 inherited farms valued above £1m in 2021-22, according to HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC): 345 valued between £1m and £2.5m 80 at £2.5m to £5m 37 above £5m
Under the new rules, those 462 farms would be affected by the 20% inheritance tax on any value above £1m (not on the whole value). However, as Mr Neidle points out, like for the rest of the population, there is no inheritance tax to be paid on the value of property up to £325,000, bringing the untaxed total to £1.325m. If a farmer is married, his or her spouse would be able to pass on another £1.325m tax free, taking the total untaxed amount to £2.65m. There were 117 farms valued above £2.5m in 2021-22, according to the HMRC figures. n addition, there is an £175,000 tax-free allowance on a main residence when it's being passed on to children or grandchildren. This brings the total untaxed amount for a farming couple to up to £3m.
Source: BBC website (who, let's remind ourselves, mentions none of the above in their TV and Radio coverage of the issue).
Now, assuming that less than a hundred farms are potentially affected by the closing of the tax-dodging loophole, that means that... 0.004% of farms will be affected. *
Haven't checked source, but had this sent to me by a farmer from Greysteel Co Derry earlier today
Quote from: oakleaflad on November 19, 2024, 08:06:59 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 07:32:50 PMNo sympathy for people earning millions paying more tax, who got out of paying tax that the average earner has to pay
They'll get not much sympathy from Joe Public either
The farm can be worth a million but be earning nothing. Lots of ordinary farmers impacted by this. Not just the Jeremy Clarksons of the world.
Before the announcement, farmers had been exempt from paying inheritance tax since 1984. The series of changes announced by Chancellor Rachel Reeves mean that from April 2026 combined business and agricultural assets worth more than £1m would be taxed at 20% when they are passed on to the next generation
I'm sorry, if I get hit with inheritance tax, then I see no reason why anyone else should get away from paying it
And they have 10 years to pay it
To the best of my knowledge I think I remember average farm size in NI ticking over 100 acres a couple of years ago. Price per acre for farm land would vary but roughly be bout £10.5k on average, So a far few would be ticking over the £1M mark.
Quote from: JoG2 on November 19, 2024, 08:08:55 PMQuote from: oakleaflad on November 19, 2024, 08:06:59 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 07:32:50 PMNo sympathy for people earning millions paying more tax, who got out of paying tax that the average earner has to pay
They'll get not much sympathy from Joe Public either
The farm can be worth a million but be earning nothing. Lots of ordinary farmers impacted by this. Not just the Jeremy Clarksons of the world.
How many is lots?
Unless it's changed it was originally anything worth £1m.
Agricultural land at roughly 10k per acre.
Any farm with 100 acres plus. And that's just the land value. The majority of farms on the mainland would be impacted I'd guess.
If its 3m with marriage etc as your article above suggests it would eliminate most of those farms and make it less of an issue.
The figures in the article above appear to be inherited per year.
There are definitely multiple times more than 500 farms worth 1m. And multiple times more than 37 farms worth 5m plus.
Quote from: Saffrongael on November 19, 2024, 08:17:28 PMAnd they have 10 years to pay it
And given the option of an interest free loan to help
As said before they could teach the job dodgers some tricks
Think you're skipping the fact that many won't be able to afford to pay it back, even over 10 years. A farm can be worth 1m + and be making peanuts. Be plenty of farms worth 1m+ where the farmer can't afford to farm full time.
Quote from: oakleaflad on November 19, 2024, 08:27:57 PMThink you're skipping the fact that many won't be able to afford to pay it back, even over 10 years. A farm can be worth 1m + and be making peanuts. Be plenty of farms worth 1m+ where the farmer can't afford to farm full time.
Farmers are saying that but most economists are saying it has to be over £3 million before tax is required.
Quote from: lenny on November 19, 2024, 06:36:34 PMQuote from: AustinPowers on November 19, 2024, 05:41:37 PMQuote from: Armagh18 on November 19, 2024, 02:34:18 PMFair fucks to them. A few load of slurry sprayed on Keir and the rest would be perfect
Amen to that
We complain non stop about our public services and waiting lists etc and then when a government proposes a tax on the very wealthy landowners to pay for improvements we get most people complaining again. I've read a number of top economists saying this will only affect 13% of farmers and the ones it will affect can well afford it. People like clarkson and dyson who buy up huge amounts of land to avoid paying taxes are exactly the reason this tax is being introduced.
Asset rich. Cash poor. Contrary to popular belief most farmers don't make very much money and I'd say if you added up all the hours worked in a year and worked it out they'd be earning well under minimum wage.
I would say most medium sized farms would be over the million valuation when you add in farm house/sheds/machinery and ground.
Remember, you'll need your doctor maybe once a year, your accountant the same but you need a farmer (of some sort) 3 times a day, every day for life.
Inheritance tax at all is absolute theft imo anyway.
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 19, 2024, 08:51:33 PMQuote from: lenny on November 19, 2024, 06:36:34 PMQuote from: AustinPowers on November 19, 2024, 05:41:37 PMQuote from: Armagh18 on November 19, 2024, 02:34:18 PMFair fucks to them. A few load of slurry sprayed on Keir and the rest would be perfect
Amen to that
We complain non stop about our public services and waiting lists etc and then when a government proposes a tax on the very wealthy landowners to pay for improvements we get most people complaining again. I've read a number of top economists saying this will only affect 13% of farmers and the ones it will affect can well afford it. People like clarkson and dyson who buy up huge amounts of land to avoid paying taxes are exactly the reason this tax is being introduced.
Asset rich. Cash poor. Contrary to popular belief most farmers don't make very much money and I'd say if you added up all the hours worked in a year and worked it out they'd be earning well under minimum wage.
I would say most medium sized farms would be over the million valuation when you add in farm house/sheds/machinery and ground.
Inheritance tax at all is absolute theft imo anyway.
As I've said all of those medium sized farms will be unaffected by this tax. It's only the mega farms and very wealthy people who'll be taxed and rightly so.
Quote from: oakleaflad on November 19, 2024, 08:19:03 PMQuote from: JoG2 on November 19, 2024, 08:08:55 PMQuote from: oakleaflad on November 19, 2024, 08:06:59 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 07:32:50 PMNo sympathy for people earning millions paying more tax, who got out of paying tax that the average earner has to pay
They'll get not much sympathy from Joe Public either
The farm can be worth a million but be earning nothing. Lots of ordinary farmers impacted by this. Not just the Jeremy Clarksons of the world.
How many is lots?
Unless it's changed it was originally anything worth £1m.
Agricultural land at roughly 10k per acre.
Any farm with 100 acres plus. And that's just the land value. The majority of farms on the mainland would be impacted I'd guess.
If its 3m with marriage etc as your article above suggests it would eliminate most of those farms and make it less of an issue.
The figures in the article above appear to be inherited per year.
There are definitely multiple times more than 500 farms worth 1m. And multiple times more than 37 farms worth 5m plus.
10k an acre??
Hearing of it going for 3 times that locally. (Mostly by c***ts that will never farm it)
Quote from: lenny on November 19, 2024, 08:55:15 PMQuote from: Armagh18 on November 19, 2024, 08:51:33 PMQuote from: lenny on November 19, 2024, 06:36:34 PMQuote from: AustinPowers on November 19, 2024, 05:41:37 PMQuote from: Armagh18 on November 19, 2024, 02:34:18 PMFair fucks to them. A few load of slurry sprayed on Keir and the rest would be perfect
Amen to that
We complain non stop about our public services and waiting lists etc and then when a government proposes a tax on the very wealthy landowners to pay for improvements we get most people complaining again. I've read a number of top economists saying this will only affect 13% of farmers and the ones it will affect can well afford it. People like clarkson and dyson who buy up huge amounts of land to avoid paying taxes are exactly the reason this tax is being introduced.
Asset rich. Cash poor. Contrary to popular belief most farmers don't make very much money and I'd say if you added up all the hours worked in a year and worked it out they'd be earning well under minimum wage.
I would say most medium sized farms would be over the million valuation when you add in farm house/sheds/machinery and ground.
Inheritance tax at all is absolute theft imo anyway.
As I've said all of those medium sized farms will be unaffected by this tax. It's only the mega farms and very wealthy people who'll be taxed and rightly so.
Thats just not true.
https://x.com/williamcrawley/status/1858964516555395121?s=46&t=BtFaHRA2ROFhCax853NIkA
Worth a watch.
Quote from: JoG2 on November 19, 2024, 08:11:41 PM_et's just break down the facts behind the hysteria of the right wing media, the deceitful Conservatives and loud-mouthed tax dodgers like Clarkson.
There are 209,000 farms in Britain of various sizes.
"Paul Johnson, the director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS), an independent economy think-tank, told Sky News: "The changes will affect a remarkably small number of some of the most valuable farms. He added: "[Farms are] still more generously treated, actually, than farms used to be in decades past."
OH NO!
The Treasury estimates that 500 estates including agricultural land will be affected by the_agricultural ANYWAY property relief reform per year. Dan Neidle, an independent tax expert, says the number of actual farms affected is likely to be below 500 per year.
here were a total of 462 inherited farms valued above £1m in 2021-22, according to HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC): 345 valued between £1m and £2.5m 80 at £2.5m to £5m 37 above £5m
Under the new rules, those 462 farms would be affected by the 20% inheritance tax on any value above £1m (not on the whole value). However, as Mr Neidle points out, like for the rest of the population, there is no inheritance tax to be paid on the value of property up to £325,000, bringing the untaxed total to £1.325m. If a farmer is married, his or her spouse would be able to pass on another £1.325m tax free, taking the total untaxed amount to £2.65m. There were 117 farms valued above £2.5m in 2021-22, according to the HMRC figures. n addition, there is an £175,000 tax-free allowance on a main residence when it's being passed on to children or grandchildren. This brings the total untaxed amount for a farming couple to up to £3m.
Source: BBC website (who, let's remind ourselves, mentions none of the above in their TV and Radio coverage of the issue).
Now, assuming that less than a hundred farms are potentially affected by the closing of the tax-dodging loophole, that means that... 0.004% of farms will be affected. *
Haven't checked source, but had this sent to me by a farmer from Greysteel Co Derry earlier today
That's pretty much all bullshit there. All farms valued over £1 million will pay the tax. It is not a million £ allowance for the farmer and for his wife. You're also overlooking the value of the farmhouse which will swallow up the 325,000£ allowance and some in quite a few cases. That's before you start adding in the value of assets, livestock, deadstock, machinery, any pensions etc.
There will be ways around it but the people who get caught out by this are the ones who will need the most help. A young man or woman who dies suddenly will likely not be able to avail of the "gift" loophole. People who haven't had the time to arrange their affairs 7 years before their death. It's highly likely that a young family or grieving wife who's husband dies suddenly will have to sell their children's inheritance and/or family home to pay a tax bill. It's an incredibly cruel tax grab.
Many families and farmers don't view their farm as an "asset". It's not comparable to shares, pensions or money in a bank. It's usually viewed as a kind of heirloom passed from one generation to another. Something that has shaped a history of families.
Quote from: Jeepers Creepers on November 19, 2024, 09:01:52 PMhttps://x.com/williamcrawley/status/1858964516555395121?s=46&t=BtFaHRA2ROFhCax853NIkA
Worth a watch.
He says they can't differentiate between farmers and tenant farmers? Why not? How is it in any way difficult to differentiate between Jeremy Clarkson, James Dyson and the ordinary farmer who stands in the parlour milking cows or drives the combine in the fields? Surely it's easy to differentiate between a farmer who has worked the ground for generations and some wealthy blow in who's bought it to tie up his millions made in another business?
Also says that 117 farms would be affected in the 21/22 tax year because he assumes they're all married couples who leave their assets to their children. That's making 2 assumptions which would not be true for all the farms. Secondly he doesn't state how many of the total estates in 21/22 tax year that 117 represents? Is that half of all farms? 1/4?
Those are very big proportions of farms if that is the case.
Can anyone tell me why a Doctor pays inheritance tax and a farmer doesn't?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 09:41:02 PMCan anyone tell me why a Doctor pays inheritance tax and a farmer doesn't?
A simplistic, reductive way to look at it. I could just as easily ask why do property owners get an exemption on their estate? Why do you get an exemption if you leave property to your children and not your nieces, brothers, cousins or nephews?
When a doctor leaves assets in his estate they are usually liquid assets that have only a monetary value. There's no emotional attachment to continue owning Dr. Johnsons shares in BOI. Those who inherit his estate are generally inheriting a cash windfall not something that people feel a duty to carry on in their own name. Also farmers are generally inheriting an asset that is worth millions but generating maybe a 1-2% return.
You're happy enough with a tax system that would drive a young family from their home farm if their father or mother died suddenly?
They paid this tax before 84, so it's not like they haven't done this before
People complaining about the services they get, but no one is willing to actually pay for it, I'm not sure where the money comes from to give people what they want.
A lot of talk about farmers earning low incomes. I wonder to what extent do they operate with cash, and to what extent do they spend big on machinery, jeeps etc rather than give it to the tax man. Equals low income on paper, but are they actually doing alright?
Quote from: trileacman on November 19, 2024, 09:10:49 PMQuote from: JoG2 on November 19, 2024, 08:11:41 PM_et's just break down the facts behind the hysteria of the right wing media, the deceitful Conservatives and loud-mouthed tax dodgers like Clarkson.
There are 209,000 farms in Britain of various sizes.
"Paul Johnson, the director of the Institute for Fiscal Studies (IFS), an independent economy think-tank, told Sky News: "The changes will affect a remarkably small number of some of the most valuable farms. He added: "[Farms are] still more generously treated, actually, than farms used to be in decades past."
OH NO!
The Treasury estimates that 500 estates including agricultural land will be affected by the_agricultural ANYWAY property relief reform per year. Dan Neidle, an independent tax expert, says the number of actual farms affected is likely to be below 500 per year.
here were a total of 462 inherited farms valued above £1m in 2021-22, according to HM Revenue and Customs (HMRC): 345 valued between £1m and £2.5m 80 at £2.5m to £5m 37 above £5m
Under the new rules, those 462 farms would be affected by the 20% inheritance tax on any value above £1m (not on the whole value). However, as Mr Neidle points out, like for the rest of the population, there is no inheritance tax to be paid on the value of property up to £325,000, bringing the untaxed total to £1.325m. If a farmer is married, his or her spouse would be able to pass on another £1.325m tax free, taking the total untaxed amount to £2.65m. There were 117 farms valued above £2.5m in 2021-22, according to the HMRC figures. n addition, there is an £175,000 tax-free allowance on a main residence when it's being passed on to children or grandchildren. This brings the total untaxed amount for a farming couple to up to £3m.
Source: BBC website (who, let's remind ourselves, mentions none of the above in their TV and Radio coverage of the issue).
Now, assuming that less than a hundred farms are potentially affected by the closing of the tax-dodging loophole, that means that... 0.004% of farms will be affected. *
Haven't checked source, but had this sent to me by a farmer from Greysteel Co Derry earlier today
That's pretty much all bullshit there. All farms valued over £1 million will pay the tax. It is not a million £ allowance for the farmer and for his wife. You're also overlooking the value of the farmhouse which will swallow up the 325,000£ allowance and some in quite a few cases. That's before you start adding in the value of assets, livestock, deadstock, machinery, any pensions etc.
There will be ways around it but the people who get caught out by this are the ones who will need the most help. A young man or woman who dies suddenly will likely not be able to avail of the "gift" loophole. People who haven't had the time to arrange their affairs 7 years before their death. It's highly likely that a young family or grieving wife who's husband dies suddenly will have to sell their children's inheritance and/or family home to pay a tax bill. It's an incredibly cruel tax grab.
Many families and farmers don't view their farm as an "asset". It's not comparable to shares, pensions or money in a bank. It's usually viewed as a kind of heirloom passed from one generation to another. Something that has shaped a history of families.
So if I am correct
Husband has £1m allowance
Wife has £1m
Allowance
Each has the 325k allowance
Then the 175k each if family home to
Kids
That 3 million to play around with before the 20% kicks in,
Regarding husband dying if he has a will and gifts all to wife then inheritance has spousal exemption.
Sorry but most of us are getting hammered tax wise so sympathy is in short supply
Labour have looked at this through accounting glasses and have not allowed for the connection we have with the land. If HMRC came looking inheritance tax of me I would do time before I would sell one sq.ft of it to give it to them.
My father took over this ground from his father which was all covered in scrub and rushes. My father spent his 30's & 40's getting it into the shape it is in today and there is not a hope in hell I will be letting it go
People need to understand a lot of us in the beef & sheep sector work full time jobs as well and we pay our taxes like everyone else. We pay PAYEE, we pay our rates we keep the local economy going by buying local for the running of the farm. We hire contractors to cut our silage and pay them what they are owed.
Its bloody hard work and in my own case I have 4 young children and a wife to look after. You cant make someone farm it has to be in you to do it. I fatten 50 cattle a year and have 50 sheep lambing at the end of February and let me tell you I might as well have a couple of hundred with the work & time it takes. Why do I do it? I do it because it gives me a sense of purpose, when you see a field of new born lambs running about in spring time there is nothing like it. When you get all the silage in an all is ready for the winter its something you can say to yourself "that was a job well done".
I am a small farmer in Tyrone who enjoys farming and in all my years farming I can say that if I break even at the end of the financial year I am happy (there have been plenty of losses).
The small bit of ground that makes up our farm will never make me a living but I hope it will give the same rollercoaster ride it gives me to whichever of my kids decide to take it on and I can only do my bit for as long as I'm still breathing.
I'm not sure why Labour is doing this as the rich business men buying up land will not be affected by this as they have the best advisors helping them avoid the tax owed but the small man will pay.
They need to roll this back or there will be trouble, not so much over here because we are a divided community but England could be in trouble.
Rant over
That's good but why should I pay tax and you don't?
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 09:41:02 PMCan anyone tell me why a Doctor pays inheritance tax and a farmer doesn't?
A doctor is not a business, the value is mainly embodied in the skills of the person. The ability of the children to become doctors is not dependent on inheritance, they can just go to college.
Quote from: Hereiam on November 19, 2024, 10:38:58 PMLabour have looked at this through accounting glasses and have not allowed for the connection we have with the land. If HMRC came looking inheritance tax of me I would do time before I would sell one sq.ft of it to give it to them.
My father took over this ground from his father which was all covered in scrub and rushes. My father spent his 30's & 40's getting it into the shape it is in today and there is not a hope in hell I will be letting it go
People need to understand a lot of us in the beef & sheep sector work full time jobs as well and we pay our taxes like everyone else. We pay PAYEE, we pay our rates we keep the local economy going by buying local for the running of the farm. We hire contractors to cut our silage and pay them what they are owed.
Its bloody hard work and in my own case I have 4 young children and a wife to look after. You cant make someone farm it has to be in you to do it. I fatten 50 cattle a year and have 50 sheep lambing at the end of February and let me tell you I might as well have a couple of hundred with the work & time it takes. Why do I do it? I do it because it gives me a sense of purpose, when you see a field of new born lambs running about in spring time there is nothing like it. When you get all the silage in an all is ready for the winter its something you can say to yourself "that was a job well done".
I am a small farmer in Tyrone who enjoys farming and in all my years farming I can say that if I break even at the end of the financial year I am happy (there have been plenty of losses).
The small bit of ground that makes up our farm will never make me a living but I hope it will give the same rollercoaster ride it gives me to whichever of my kids decide to take it on and I can only do my bit for as long as I'm still breathing.
I'm not sure why Labour is doing this as the rich business men buying up land will not be affected by this as they have the best advisors helping them avoid the tax owed but the small man will pay.
They need to roll this back or there will be trouble, not so much over here because we are a divided community but England could be in trouble.
Rant over
That's a good insight, fair play. But do you really not make a turn at it? The farmers I know tell me prices are good at the moment?
Quote from: Sportacus on November 19, 2024, 10:32:18 PMA lot of talk about farmers earning low incomes. I wonder to what extent do they operate with cash, and to what extent do they spend big on machinery, jeeps etc rather than give it to the tax man. Equals low income on paper, but are they actually doing alright?
Good luck to them if they do avoid paying tax
It would be a drop in the ocean compared to what the super wealthy avoid in tax , but no government will be going after them .
Quote from: Hereiam on November 19, 2024, 10:38:58 PMLabour have looked at this through accounting glasses and have not allowed for the connection we have with the land. If HMRC came looking inheritance tax of me I would do time before I would sell one sq.ft of it to give it to them.
My father took over this ground from his father which was all covered in scrub and rushes. My father spent his 30's & 40's getting it into the shape it is in today and there is not a hope in hell I will be letting it go
People need to understand a lot of us in the beef & sheep sector work full time jobs as well and we pay our taxes like everyone else. We pay PAYEE, we pay our rates we keep the local economy going by buying local for the running of the farm. We hire contractors to cut our silage and pay them what they are owed.
Its bloody hard work and in my own case I have 4 young children and a wife to look after. You cant make someone farm it has to be in you to do it. I fatten 50 cattle a year and have 50 sheep lambing at the end of February and let me tell you I might as well have a couple of hundred with the work & time it takes. Why do I do it? I do it because it gives me a sense of purpose, when you see a field of new born lambs running about in spring time there is nothing like it. When you get all the silage in an all is ready for the winter its something you can say to yourself "that was a job well done".
I am a small farmer in Tyrone who enjoys farming and in all my years farming I can say that if I break even at the end of the financial year I am happy (there have been plenty of losses).
The small bit of ground that makes up our farm will never make me a living but I hope it will give the same rollercoaster ride it gives me to whichever of my kids decide to take it on and I can only do my bit for as long as I'm still breathing.
I'm not sure why Labour is doing this as the rich business men buying up land will not be affected by this as they have the best advisors helping them avoid the tax owed but the small man will pay.
They need to roll this back or there will be trouble, not so much over here because we are a divided community but England could be in trouble.
Rant over
You only pay tax on the value OVER £3m though...
It's a small bit like the yanks always voting against tax rises for the rich because some day they hope to be themselves!
One's saying they won't pay tax but complain about the health service
Bonkers
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 11:01:18 PMOne's saying they won't pay tax but complain about the health service
Bonkers
It's not the lack of tax that has the health service f××ked. If we all paid twice as much tax , it would still be f××ked.
Quote from: AustinPowers on November 19, 2024, 11:08:13 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 11:01:18 PMOne's saying they won't pay tax but complain about the health service
Bonkers
It's not the lack of tax that has the health service f××ked. If we all paid twice as much tax , it would still be f××ked.
Spot on.
We're all paying more than enough tax. Look at the amount being wasted.
Quote from: Sportacus on November 19, 2024, 10:32:18 PMA lot of talk about farmers earning low incomes. I wonder to what extent do they operate with cash, and to what extent do they spend big on machinery, jeeps etc rather than give it to the tax man. Equals low income on paper, but are they actually doing alright?
Odd bit would be cash alright but at the end of the day your milk cheque isn't in cash, marts/factories aren't going to be giving it out either.
As for the jeeps/machinery, if its being bought it's being used, yeah it's a bonus to be able to write off a tractor or whatever but it still has to be paid for and that money is hard earned.
Quote from: Hereiam on November 19, 2024, 10:38:58 PMLabour have looked at this through accounting glasses and have not allowed for the connection we have with the land. If HMRC came looking inheritance tax of me I would do time before I would sell one sq.ft of it to give it to them.
My father took over this ground from his father which was all covered in scrub and rushes. My father spent his 30's & 40's getting it into the shape it is in today and there is not a hope in hell I will be letting it go
People need to understand a lot of us in the beef & sheep sector work full time jobs as well and we pay our taxes like everyone else. We pay PAYEE, we pay our rates we keep the local economy going by buying local for the running of the farm. We hire contractors to cut our silage and pay them what they are owed.
Its bloody hard work and in my own case I have 4 young children and a wife to look after. You cant make someone farm it has to be in you to do it. I fatten 50 cattle a year and have 50 sheep lambing at the end of February and let me tell you I might as well have a couple of hundred with the work & time it takes. Why do I do it? I do it because it gives me a sense of purpose, when you see a field of new born lambs running about in spring time there is nothing like it. When you get all the silage in an all is ready for the winter its something you can say to yourself "that was a job well done".
I am a small farmer in Tyrone who enjoys farming and in all my years farming I can say that if I break even at the end of the financial year I am happy (there have been plenty of losses).
The small bit of ground that makes up our farm will never make me a living but I hope it will give the same rollercoaster ride it gives me to whichever of my kids decide to take it on and I can only do my bit for as long as I'm still breathing.
I'm not sure why Labour is doing this as the rich business men buying up land will not be affected by this as they have the best advisors helping them avoid the tax owed but the small man will pay.
They need to roll this back or there will be trouble, not so much over here because we are a divided community but England could be in trouble.
Rant over
Well said.
Quote from: Sportacus on November 19, 2024, 10:54:27 PMQuote from: Hereiam on November 19, 2024, 10:38:58 PMLabour have looked at this through accounting glasses and have not allowed for the connection we have with the land. If HMRC came looking inheritance tax of me I would do time before I would sell one sq.ft of it to give it to them.
My father took over this ground from his father which was all covered in scrub and rushes. My father spent his 30's & 40's getting it into the shape it is in today and there is not a hope in hell I will be letting it go
People need to understand a lot of us in the beef & sheep sector work full time jobs as well and we pay our taxes like everyone else. We pay PAYEE, we pay our rates we keep the local economy going by buying local for the running of the farm. We hire contractors to cut our silage and pay them what they are owed.
Its bloody hard work and in my own case I have 4 young children and a wife to look after. You cant make someone farm it has to be in you to do it. I fatten 50 cattle a year and have 50 sheep lambing at the end of February and let me tell you I might as well have a couple of hundred with the work & time it takes. Why do I do it? I do it because it gives me a sense of purpose, when you see a field of new born lambs running about in spring time there is nothing like it. When you get all the silage in an all is ready for the winter its something you can say to yourself "that was a job well done".
I am a small farmer in Tyrone who enjoys farming and in all my years farming I can say that if I break even at the end of the financial year I am happy (there have been plenty of losses).
The small bit of ground that makes up our farm will never make me a living but I hope it will give the same rollercoaster ride it gives me to whichever of my kids decide to take it on and I can only do my bit for as long as I'm still breathing.
I'm not sure why Labour is doing this as the rich business men buying up land will not be affected by this as they have the best advisors helping them avoid the tax owed but the small man will pay.
They need to roll this back or there will be trouble, not so much over here because we are a divided community but England could be in trouble.
Rant over
That's a good insight, fair play. But do you really not make a turn at it? The farmers I know tell me prices are good at the moment?
Prices are better than what they were, but input prices have rocketed this last couple of years and on top of that you get a bad summer this year when the grass growth slowed which means having to feed more meal to the cattle as the quality of the grass wasn't great. The weather is completely out of our control so its unfortunate it had to happen this year when prices are better and we have no idea where they will be next year as a flood of beef from Brazil or where ever could decimate prices as the brits are hell bent on taking in imported meat to keep a lid on food prices.
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 19, 2024, 08:56:04 PMQuote from: oakleaflad on November 19, 2024, 08:19:03 PMQuote from: JoG2 on November 19, 2024, 08:08:55 PMQuote from: oakleaflad on November 19, 2024, 08:06:59 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 07:32:50 PMNo sympathy for people earning millions paying more tax, who got out of paying tax that the average earner has to pay
They'll get not much sympathy from Joe Public either
The farm can be worth a million but be earning nothing. Lots of ordinary farmers impacted by this. Not just the Jeremy Clarksons of the world.
How many is lots?
Unless it's changed it was originally anything worth £1m.
Agricultural land at roughly 10k per acre.
Any farm with 100 acres plus. And that's just the land value. The majority of farms on the mainland would be impacted I'd guess.
If its 3m with marriage etc as your article above suggests it would eliminate most of those farms and make it less of an issue.
The figures in the article above appear to be inherited per year.
There are definitely multiple times more than 500 farms worth 1m. And multiple times more than 37 farms worth 5m plus.
10k an acre??
Hearing of it going for 3 times that locally. (Mostly by c***ts that will never farm it)
Not average farmland. Average price bout £10-11k.
Quote from: Hereiam on November 19, 2024, 11:19:53 PMQuote from: Sportacus on November 19, 2024, 10:54:27 PMQuote from: Hereiam on November 19, 2024, 10:38:58 PMLabour have looked at this through accounting glasses and have not allowed for the connection we have with the land. If HMRC came looking inheritance tax of me I would do time before I would sell one sq.ft of it to give it to them.
My father took over this ground from his father which was all covered in scrub and rushes. My father spent his 30's & 40's getting it into the shape it is in today and there is not a hope in hell I will be letting it go
People need to understand a lot of us in the beef & sheep sector work full time jobs as well and we pay our taxes like everyone else. We pay PAYEE, we pay our rates we keep the local economy going by buying local for the running of the farm. We hire contractors to cut our silage and pay them what they are owed.
Its bloody hard work and in my own case I have 4 young children and a wife to look after. You cant make someone farm it has to be in you to do it. I fatten 50 cattle a year and have 50 sheep lambing at the end of February and let me tell you I might as well have a couple of hundred with the work & time it takes. Why do I do it? I do it because it gives me a sense of purpose, when you see a field of new born lambs running about in spring time there is nothing like it. When you get all the silage in an all is ready for the winter its something you can say to yourself "that was a job well done".
I am a small farmer in Tyrone who enjoys farming and in all my years farming I can say that if I break even at the end of the financial year I am happy (there have been plenty of losses).
The small bit of ground that makes up our farm will never make me a living but I hope it will give the same rollercoaster ride it gives me to whichever of my kids decide to take it on and I can only do my bit for as long as I'm still breathing.
I'm not sure why Labour is doing this as the rich business men buying up land will not be affected by this as they have the best advisors helping them avoid the tax owed but the small man will pay.
They need to roll this back or there will be trouble, not so much over here because we are a divided community but England could be in trouble.
Rant over
That's a good insight, fair play. But do you really not make a turn at it? The farmers I know tell me prices are good at the moment?
Prices are better than what they were, but input prices have rocketed this last couple of years and on top of that you get a bad summer this year when the grass growth slowed which means having to feed more meal to the cattle as the quality of the grass wasn't great. The weather is completely out of our control so its unfortunate it had to happen this year when prices are better and we have no idea where they will be next year as a flood of beef from Brazil or where ever could decimate prices as the brits are hell bent on taking in imported meat to keep a lid on food prices.
Well I wish you well, we all need good food. And at the end of the day in my simple head that's why farmers as small businesses should be treated a wee bit differently. The obvious compromise to my mind is to exempt active farmers.
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 19, 2024, 11:11:40 PMQuote from: AustinPowers on November 19, 2024, 11:08:13 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 11:01:18 PMOne's saying they won't pay tax but complain about the health service
Bonkers
It's not the lack of tax that has the health service f××ked. If we all paid twice as much tax , it would still be f××ked.
Spot on.
We're all paying more than enough tax. Look at the amount being wasted.
How much was wasted during COVID by them shower of wasters in Westminster, did they ever recover the money given out to that Michelle Mone blade and the countless others.
Quote from: Hereiam on November 19, 2024, 10:38:58 PMLabour have looked at this through accounting glasses and have not allowed for the connection we have with the land. If HMRC came looking inheritance tax of me I would do time before I would sell one sq.ft of it to give it to them.
My father took over this ground from his father which was all covered in scrub and rushes. My father spent his 30's & 40's getting it into the shape it is in today and there is not a hope in hell I will be letting it go
People need to understand a lot of us in the beef & sheep sector work full time jobs as well and we pay our taxes like everyone else. We pay PAYEE, we pay our rates we keep the local economy going by buying local for the running of the farm. We hire contractors to cut our silage and pay them what they are owed.
Its bloody hard work and in my own case I have 4 young children and a wife to look after. You cant make someone farm it has to be in you to do it. I fatten 50 cattle a year and have 50 sheep lambing at the end of February and let me tell you I might as well have a couple of hundred with the work & time it takes. Why do I do it? I do it because it gives me a sense of purpose, when you see a field of new born lambs running about in spring time there is nothing like it. When you get all the silage in an all is ready for the winter its something you can say to yourself "that was a job well done".
I am a small farmer in Tyrone who enjoys farming and in all my years farming I can say that if I break even at the end of the financial year I am happy (there have been plenty of losses).
The small bit of ground that makes up our farm will never make me a living but I hope it will give the same rollercoaster ride it gives me to whichever of my kids decide to take it on and I can only do my bit for as long as I'm still breathing.
I'm not sure why Labour is doing this as the rich business men buying up land will not be affected by this as they have the best advisors helping them avoid the tax owed but the small man will pay.
They need to roll this back or there will be trouble, not so much over here because we are a divided community but England could be in trouble.
Rant over
I think that's spot on
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 10:42:33 PMThat's good but why should I pay tax and you don't?
I don't think you're making any attempt to understand. Family owned farmers' land is a unique asset and family farming is a system to be cherished. When family land is sold to pay tax bills it will be bought by business-men or investors, not other farmers.
Labour don't really get farmers and there are very few farming votes for them in England.
Genuine family farm land does not translate to real wealth as there is no intention to sell it and it is probably the lowest yielding asset you can own.
That's the bit the townies don't get.🫣 Raising more from Capital Gains Tax on the sale of inherited land or sites would be a more sensible approach. [/quote]
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 11:01:18 PMOne's saying they won't pay tax but complain about the health service
Bonkers
And if the government came out with a tax in the morning that you thought was unfair you wouldn't protest against it because "you complain about the health service"?
What kind of work are you in if you mind me asking?
Always seen Inheritance tax a sneaky 2nd govt tax, as that money will already have been taxed previous. They do anything on the common man, to stick the arm in, while letting big corporations away with blue murder.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 10:01:47 PMThey paid this tax before 84, so it's not like they haven't done this before
People complaining about the services they get, but no one is willing to actually pay for it, I'm not sure where the money comes from to give people what they want.
And do you have an idea of land values in 1984? Probably less than £1000 per acre. So land values have increased by 1000% or more.
Quote from: APM on November 19, 2024, 11:47:43 PMQuote from: Hereiam on November 19, 2024, 10:38:58 PMLabour have looked at this through accounting glasses and have not allowed for the connection we have with the land. If HMRC came looking inheritance tax of me I would do time before I would sell one sq.ft of it to give it to them.
My father took over this ground from his father which was all covered in scrub and rushes. My father spent his 30's & 40's getting it into the shape it is in today and there is not a hope in hell I will be letting it go
People need to understand a lot of us in the beef & sheep sector work full time jobs as well and we pay our taxes like everyone else. We pay PAYEE, we pay our rates we keep the local economy going by buying local for the running of the farm. We hire contractors to cut our silage and pay them what they are owed.
Its bloody hard work and in my own case I have 4 young children and a wife to look after. You cant make someone farm it has to be in you to do it. I fatten 50 cattle a year and have 50 sheep lambing at the end of February and let me tell you I might as well have a couple of hundred with the work & time it takes. Why do I do it? I do it because it gives me a sense of purpose, when you see a field of new born lambs running about in spring time there is nothing like it. When you get all the silage in an all is ready for the winter its something you can say to yourself "that was a job well done".
I am a small farmer in Tyrone who enjoys farming and in all my years farming I can say that if I break even at the end of the financial year I am happy (there have been plenty of losses).
The small bit of ground that makes up our farm will never make me a living but I hope it will give the same rollercoaster ride it gives me to whichever of my kids decide to take it on and I can only do my bit for as long as I'm still breathing.
I'm not sure why Labour is doing this as the rich business men buying up land will not be affected by this as they have the best advisors helping them avoid the tax owed but the small man will pay.
They need to roll this back or there will be trouble, not so much over here because we are a divided community but England could be in trouble.
Rant over
I think that's spot on
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 10:42:33 PMThat's good but why should I pay tax and you don't?
I don't think you're making any attempt to understand. Family owned farmers' land is a unique asset and family farming is a system to be cherished. When family land is sold to pay tax bills it will be bought by business-men or investors, not other farmers.
Labour don't really get farmers and there are very few farming votes for them in England.
Genuine family farm land does not translate to real wealth as there is no intention to sell it and it is probably the lowest yielding asset you can own.
That's the bit the townies don't get.🫣 Raising more from Capital Gains Tax on the sale of inherited land or sites would be a more sensible approach.
[/quote] Yeah would agree with that. If the children have no interest in farming the land and are selling it then should pay their fair share. If they're taking on to farm it then let them be
Ok, A scenario I know of happened down here a few years back.
A farmer/business man left his four sons different parts of the business, etc, one got a hardware business, two got left grocery shops and the youngest got left a farm of over 600 acres.
The only one who will not pay inheritance tax under the previous laws is the lad who got the land.
Is that fair?
Who's to say the other businesses are making enough of a turnover to pay the inheritance tax and the farm isn't?
I know there's an emotional attachment to land much like the Bull McCabe, but does that stack up in reality?
Labour have got this one right IMO.
And fúck Clarkson and Dyson and Lloyd Webber as this is the exact shower of tax avoiding cúnts this change will hit and not the generational farmer as pointed out by Dan Neidle, an actual tax expert and others.
Check back in 5 years and see who had more profitable years.
Quote from: trileacman on November 19, 2024, 11:50:41 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 11:01:18 PMOne's saying they won't pay tax but complain about the health service
Bonkers
And if the government came out with a tax in the morning that you thought was unfair you wouldn't protest against it because "you complain about the health service"?
What kind of work are you in if you mind me asking?
Private health care. I get taxed da fucked, would I like to be less taxed? Hell yeah, things are a choice, even more so now, people choose to do things, become teachers, doctors, bricklayers and farmers.
I deal with farmers a lot over the years and I know they have a days work before I'm opening up my place, BUT, I'm still asking, and forget about the romantic stuff, why should other business (farming) be exempt from tax when other people lose out?
Yeah blow it up, who cares! We can import all we need from Asia and South America same as the all year round strawberries. It'll be grand and none of those nasty cow farts to upset us.
Quote from: johnnycool on November 20, 2024, 08:30:12 AMI know there's an emotional attachment to land much like the Bull McCabe, but does that stack up in reality?
Not "much like" Bull McCabe. There is an emotional attachment alright but that comparison is a bit mad.
Look, the reason it is so emotive is that the biggest fear the old farmer has is that the farm will be sold. They spend their lives trying to improve it and try to ensure that someone in the next generation will follow on.
Ironically, I could see that farmers could much more easily live with an increase on CGT for inherited land that is sold, because it would have the opposite effect and discourage sale.
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 20, 2024, 08:44:39 AMQuote from: trileacman on November 19, 2024, 11:50:41 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on November 19, 2024, 11:01:18 PMOne's saying they won't pay tax but complain about the health service
Bonkers
And if the government came out with a tax in the morning that you thought was unfair you wouldn't protest against it because "you complain about the health service"?
What kind of work are you in if you mind me asking?
Private health care. I get taxed da fucked, would I like to be less taxed? Hell yeah, things are a choice, even more so now, people choose to do things, become teachers, doctors, bricklayers and farmers.
I deal with farmers a lot over the years and I know they have a days work before I'm opening up my place, BUT, I'm still asking, and forget about the romantic stuff, why should other business (farming) be exempt from tax when other people lose out?
They are not exempt from tax in general. There are unique considerations around family farming which I don't think you want to hear or understand.
Be careful what you wish for. If these farms have to sell up it won't be other small/medium farmers buying them. It'll be the extremely rich that folks are complaining about.
That aside, meat from Britain/Ireland is also better than anything that'll be imported.
Quote from: johnnycool on November 20, 2024, 08:30:12 AMOk, A scenario I know of happened down here a few years back.
A farmer/business man left his four sons different parts of the business, etc, one got a hardware business, two got left grocery shops and the youngest got left a farm of over 600 acres.
The only one who will not pay inheritance tax under the previous laws is the lad who got the land.
Is that fair?
Who's to say the other businesses are making enough of a turnover to pay the inheritance tax and the farm isn't?
People who understand business. That's who can say.
Say all 4 got left equal value assets, the fellas who get a grocery shop or hardware store valued at 500,000£. That store will probably provide an income for the owner of between 20,000 -50,000£ depending on location etc. at the average NI land price of 13,800£ the farmer will get left 36 acres of land. He'll be doing very well to earn £3,000 a year off that farm.
Like how I feel about housing, the cleanest solution here is increased capital gains tax.
Thousands of acres of rural farmland I reckon would be a burden rather than an asset for 99.9% of us.
If there are rural folk willing and able to make it work for them, then I'd much favour that over international companies.
Of course such a tax change would see the value of their land fall dramatically. But you know, if the intent was never to sell, then what does that matter...........?
Quote from: thewobbler on November 20, 2024, 10:22:58 AMLike how I feel about housing, the cleanest solution here is increased capital gains tax.
Thousands of acres of rural farmland I reckon would be a burden rather than an asset for 99.9% of us.
If there are rural folk willing and able to make it work for them, then I'd much favour that over international companies.
Of course such a tax change would see the value of their land fall dramatically. But you know, if the intent was never to sell, then what does that matter...........?
You need a formula that allows the use of the farm for regulated agriculture, but which penalises sale for cash. If a farmer leaves a farm to 3 children who just sell it then there should be no exemption, but there should be mechanism to allow it continue which reflect the value of the income it can raise, which is much less than with other businesses.
Quote from: armaghniac on November 20, 2024, 10:35:53 AMQuote from: thewobbler on November 20, 2024, 10:22:58 AMLike how I feel about housing, the cleanest solution here is increased capital gains tax.
Thousands of acres of rural farmland I reckon would be a burden rather than an asset for 99.9% of us.
If there are rural folk willing and able to make it work for them, then I'd much favour that over international companies.
Of course such a tax change would see the value of their land fall dramatically. But you know, if the intent was never to sell, then what does that matter...........?
You need a formula that allows the use of the farm for regulated agriculture, but which penalises sale for cash. If a farmer leaves a farm to 3 children who just sell it then there should be no exemption, but there should be mechanism to allow it continue which reflect the value of the income it can raise, which is much less than with other businesses.
Would a straightforward solution not be to have a clause that says no IHT if the land is still held say 7 years post death? If someone inherits the farm and has no interest in farming it and so sells it, they pay tax like anyone else. If 7 years later they still hold it, the IHT liability falls away?
Quote from: trileacman on November 20, 2024, 09:43:24 AMQuote from: johnnycool on November 20, 2024, 08:30:12 AMOk, A scenario I know of happened down here a few years back.
A farmer/business man left his four sons different parts of the business, etc, one got a hardware business, two got left grocery shops and the youngest got left a farm of over 600 acres.
The only one who will not pay inheritance tax under the previous laws is the lad who got the land.
Is that fair?
Who's to say the other businesses are making enough of a turnover to pay the inheritance tax and the farm isn't?
People who understand business. That's who can say.
Say all 4 got left equal value assets, the fellas who get a grocery shop or hardware store valued at 500,000£. That store will probably provide an income for the owner of between 20,000 -50,000£ depending on location etc. at the average NI land price of 13,800£ the farmer will get left 36 acres of land. He'll be doing very well to earn £3,000 a year off that farm.
If it's £1m iht free and he is single
He will get the first 73acres free @13800.
Simplistic I know as herd etc/ plant taken into account
20% might be too high
Could be 10 %
But jeez they can't be exempt totally if everyone else is being taxed to the hilt
And what will the government do with this extra inheritance tax. Will they sort out the deficit and ease the burden on pensioners buying heating oil or approve more contracts for assisting Isreal and the likes. The reason they are broke is bad book keeping and dodgy hand outs to lobbyists. In five years time they will be increasing something else because they couldn't run a bath. This is just history repeating itself, a shower of irresponsible Eaton manufactured twats the whole lot of them.
Quote from: north_antrim_hound on November 20, 2024, 12:38:00 PMAnd what will the government do with this extra inheritance tax. Will they sort out the deficit and ease the burden on pensioners buying heating oil or approve more contracts for assisting Isreal and the likes. The reason they are broke is bad book keeping and dodgy hand outs to lobbyists. In five years time they will be increasing something else because they couldn't run a bath. This is just history repeating itself, a shower of irresponsible Eaton manufactured twats the whole lot of them.
Cant really argue with that!
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 20, 2024, 12:51:44 PMQuote from: north_antrim_hound on November 20, 2024, 12:38:00 PMAnd what will the government do with this extra inheritance tax. Will they sort out the deficit and ease the burden on pensioners buying heating oil or approve more contracts for assisting Isreal and the likes. The reason they are broke is bad book keeping and dodgy hand outs to lobbyists. In five years time they will be increasing something else because they couldn't run a bath. This is just history repeating itself, a shower of irresponsible Eaton manufactured twats the whole lot of them.
Cant really argue with that!
Heard on the radio today that they reckon the total tax take from the new rules will fund the NHS for less than 12 hours ::)
Quote from: Armagh18 on November 20, 2024, 12:51:44 PMQuote from: north_antrim_hound on November 20, 2024, 12:38:00 PMAnd what will the government do with this extra inheritance tax. Will they sort out the deficit and ease the burden on pensioners buying heating oil or approve more contracts for assisting Isreal and the likes. The reason they are broke is bad book keeping and dodgy hand outs to lobbyists. In five years time they will be increasing something else because they couldn't run a bath. This is just history repeating itself, a shower of irresponsible Eaton manufactured twats the whole lot of them.
Cant really argue with that!
Yep. He's 100% correct
So scrap the NHS as its not fit for purpose and lets go private
Quote from: Milltown Row2 on November 20, 2024, 01:48:50 PMSo scrap the NHS as its not fit for purpose and lets go private
And give me back my National Insurance contributions, taxes etc etc and then it's every man, woman and child for themselves, just like in the US.
Oh, and cancel those single farm payments while we're at it.
Quote from: johnnycool on November 20, 2024, 02:20:43 PMQuote from: Milltown Row2 on November 20, 2024, 01:48:50 PMSo scrap the NHS as its not fit for purpose and lets go private
And give me back my National Insurance contributions, taxes etc etc and then it's every man, woman and child for themselves, just like in the US.
Oh, and cancel those single farm payments while we're at it.
You wont have to wait too long for that one, its just around the corner.
Now that the UK treasury has to stump up for this payment they will be looking to do away with it very quickly.
If you look at the south and compare what funding is available to farmers there compared to here it is clear that we are fcuked.