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Lots of bling but no bang (http://www.irishexaminer.com/text/sport/cwcwkfgbmhey/)
By Ewan MacKenna - Monday, February 04, 2013
It took just a few sentences, but in those few seconds Jimmy McGuinness managed to depressingly sum up the next three months.
Standing in a cramped corridor under the Cusack Stand on Saturday night, the first real game of 2013 had barely drawn its final breath and the Donegal manager wore a gentle smile as he spoke. This is a man that hates losing so much he'd essentially been unemployed for the past two years, devoting all his time to winning. But here and now, defeat didn't bother him, and little wonder. "We're probably at 65-to-70%," he said. "It's not something to get overly carried away with. We want to get enough points to stay in the division."
His honesty had just launched the league — one of the most pointless competitions in sport.
The start of the season should be a showpiece occasion but despite the valiant efforts of both the GAA and Dublin County Board in trying to make it a spectacle, these games aren't, and under the current format they never will be. It's not that the standard is bad, rather that high-end sport is largely about winning and losing. Without the brutal choice between exhilaration and devastation for all stakeholders, it's boring. Yet the majority of 112-round-robin games will be played out with a mentality McGuinness and others openly admit to: it's better to avoid the drop while finding one or two players and honing tactics than it is to win out with the tried and tested.
What's worse is, on average an inter-county side plays just over 11 competitive games per year. However over seven of those will be in this competition. In short, close to twice as many games that don't matter are played out as games that do. But we are so wrapped up in familiarity that there is no contempt for the league, rather an acceptance of mediocrity and a waste of time and talent.
Consider this — while fans of other sports get regular high-profile matches that matter, and while players, managers and backroom teams in other sports work and train to test themselves at the highest level, we don't get that in football. The best teams may all have finally rode in and hitched up in Division One, but still we must wait until August before they challenge one another. It makes no sense. Instead, what we got on Saturday night was what we already knew before Saturday night. Dublin are deeper than most in terms of talent, Kildare are very good but have enough flaws and problem positions to stop them being great, Donegal aren't fit, and after dominating the league recently Cork finally realised it isn't worth their while to do so again.
Any competition of importance involves hitting the ground running however the champions of the last three years have done no ball work. Instead, a side that has been back just over two months are in the gym on Tuesdays, doing fitness work on Thursdays and are expected to fit in another day of weights themselves. It explains the ball striking of Colm O'Neill and Donnacha O'Connor and explains why so few from Cork were troubled by it. Indeed on Saturday, Conor Counihan's dummy team was actually stronger than his named team, which sums up so much. As for the best team in the nation, Donegal are only back training less than four weeks, and while they were subjected to a gruelling schedule of workouts on Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays after returning from Dubai, it's all been to catch up on lost time rather than get ready for a tilt at a competition that dominates the inter-county calendar in terms of the number of games played.
Who can blame them? Of the 40 teams that have reached provincial finals in the last five seasons, only 12 reached any league final that same season. In the past three years, the All Ireland semi-finalists have won just 58% of round-robin league games. There's little correlation between championship class and league form because there's little interest.
Right now in football, there are so many exciting questions, from what Mick O'Dwyer can do with Clare, past dark horses like Laois and Monaghan and Roscommon, all the way up to how Jimmy McGuinness double-jobs at the top. There's an exciting tactical revolution taking place. There's a middle-class of teams that have never been as good at any point in football history. There's better preparation and higher standards. Sadly though we waste all of that over the next few months and must wait until 65% of intercounty games are out of the way before we can enjoy what we have. In the meantime McGuinness and others will battle it out not to be the worst, rather than trying to be the best. Something to be endured rather than enjoyed.
Would the leagues really be missed if they were scrapped? Would they not make a bit of room for club competitions? Or if you had a larger number of smaller divisions would you not increase the value of each game and increase the number of promotion-relegation contests and spice it up a bit?
Thing about the league is that it has better competitive balance than the championship. In the championship it's an accident of geography that decides if you're up against somebody who's at your standard or someone who plays at such a dizzily high standard that they're going to obliterate you, and in the case of hurling that often means teams can't even enter the competition. At least with the league there's a promotion-relegation structure that gives developing counties a pathway to the top, they can work their way up.
Quote from: hardstation on February 12, 2013, 10:40:57 PM
Some boys want to scrap every competition.
True, I like the leagues. It gets away from the local tribalism associated with provincial championship matches. Saying that though, I'd still like an open-draw non seeded 32 county All-Ireland championship. No provincials if you all get me.
Quote from: Farrandeelin on February 12, 2013, 10:44:34 PM
Quote from: hardstation on February 12, 2013, 10:40:57 PM
Some boys want to scrap every competition.
True, I like the leagues. It gets away from the local tribalism associated with provincial championship matches. Saying that though, I'd still like an open-draw non seeded 32 county All-Ireland championship. No provincials if you all get me.
I'd like an Open Draw too.
We all thought we'd miss the hurling provinicials, but they exist in name only.
QuoteIt gets away from the local tribalism associated with provincial championship matches.
Is there something wrong with local tribalism? You know, just cause the whole organisation is based on it and everything, no biggie.
The GAA really need to herd up the managers and layers and drill into them the importance of never diminishing the league to the media, it just hurts the whole product and perception of it when the campaigns tell you to 'Unexpect the Expected' and then the expected creeps out of teams' mouths.
Quote from: hardstation on February 12, 2013, 10:40:57 PM
Some boys want to scrap every competition.
Streamline the whole process down to tossing a coin, save a lot of time & money.
League performances need to be rewarded in the championship.
When we go to Champions league format, the league should determine championship seeding
It's quite simple, all senior IC games should matter and the only way to do that is link them all to the All Ireland. There are two suggestions I like, either have 4 groups of but based on the American football set up where you play all your 'divisional' rivals and some teams from the other divisions or play your league and seed teams based on league performance with seed 1 playing seed 32 etc. in the first round. Both these systems give all teams plenty of games but not many dead ringers, the league version in particular, and we have a much better, totally structured season.
Get rid of league and provincials. Inter-county June, July and August & September - 4 leagues, 8 teams. Club - October, November, Feb, March, April & May.
Up Ulster.
scrap the league if 'nobody is bothered'. start an open championship in march/april through september. meaning more games for weaker counties. more games for the fans . everyone will be bothered then.
I read this about month ago i guess it goes with this thread.
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The Warm Glow of the Winter Leagues
The Championship is the only GAA competition that matters. We all know that. The Association does its best to advertise the National League but real GAA people know those three (four if you count Division 2) Leagues in a row were cold comfort to Cork last year and the year before. To what end, then, are the Winter Leagues? What purpose do they serve?
Who currently has the McGrath Cup on their mantelpiece? Who dusts the McKenna Cup? Who could recognise the O'Bryne Cup if they saw it in a pawnbroker's window? And how can the boys on the comma-tee bring their wives shopping in New York City if the winners of the Irish branch of the FBD League refuse to travel?
Three-pipe problems, all. But your correspondent remains a fan of the winter leagues, be they ever so humble. They fulfill, almost by accident, a purpose that the professional competitors of the GAA do so well – the winter leagues make the fans happy.
The GAA, being an amateur organisation, is often at a promotional disadvantage compared to professional sports. The GAA prioritises players over spectators, while the professional sports know that spectators must come first if money is to be made.
The GAA Winter Leagues are the only competitions in the GAA where the spectator comes first. Not, of course, the inflatable shamrock-wavers; such delicate flowers would look out of place in such theatres as Ballinmore, Co Leitrim, Ballinlough, Co Roscommon or Tuam, the true heart of Galway football.
No, these delighted fans are the hardcore, the proper GAA people who have been on bread and water since five to five on the third September, with nothing to console them in the long dark nights only soccer players beyond in England, hugging and kissing after scoring goals and otherwise acting the maggot.
For that small but devoted brand, the winter leagues are like a sort of AA meeting where you can not only confess your terrible additions and hopeless needs, but also be safe in the knowledge that, while you are fallen, you are among a community that know and understand your pain.
A GAA person attending a Winter League game is like a man going to an AA meeting, declaring that he used to drink a pint of bleach with a meths chaser just to get the motor running, and being greeted with knowing and rueful smiles. I spent more nights barefoot in skips than in my own bed in 1983, declares a man at the back of the stand. When the rats came for me during the DTs, they ran away again, laughs another happy soul. I just like a glass of wine with my dinner, mutters a girl through clenched teeth, carefully adjusting her pashmina as the players warm up at the town goal.
You could say that it's only at the winter league games that the GAA person is ever truly at peace. There's no peace to be had in going to the Championship games. Championship games are fraught with anxiety, less so now in the back door era but still very real for the majority of counties.
National League games are meaningless in themselves but always at the back of the mind of the GAA person is the narrative arc, the presence of the big picture that can be as foreboding as it is enticing. If we never get out of Division Four there is no way we'll return to glory. If that young fella can carry this form into the summer we might keep it kicked out to them, for a start. If, if, if. Those nagging doubts can never be cleared from the mind as spring moves slowly into summer.
But in the winter leagues the year stretches long ahead. You're out of the house, and already the cold air is making you feel better about the Christmas excesses. Whereas before your head was annoyed with the most unspeakable muck on telly – and you wouldn't mind the English stations, but our own! Our own! Is this what I pay the license fee for? – now you're looking at the tantalising prospect of this year being The Year, , that Magical Year for which you've waited since you were a child.
There's a few lads up from minor that you're looking forward to seeing. Some lad is back from Australia – covered in tattoos, the hoor, but he was a good one before he left. And can your full-forward work off that condition before the Championship begins?
No gourmand sitting before a dinner cooked by Nigella Lawson herself ever licked his lips as happily as the GAA person at a winter league game, when hope springs eternal in the mud, the cold and the rain. God bless them all, and good luck to them.
http://spailpin.blogspot.ie/2013/01/the-warm-glow-of-winter-leagues.html
Quote from: Ard-Rí on February 12, 2013, 11:04:56 PM
QuoteIt gets away from the local tribalism associated with provincial championship matches.
Is there something wrong with local tribalism? You know, just cause the whole organisation is based on it and everything, no biggie.
Nothing wrong with local tribalism. Just it offers an escape from it from Feb to April.
Quote from: ONeill on February 12, 2013, 11:23:17 PM
Get rid of league and provincials. Inter-county June, July and August & September - 4 leagues, 8 teams. Club - October, November, Feb, March, April & May.
Up Ulster.
Completely disagree. This article sums it up for me:
Hail to the League we love more than we can ever let onKEITH DUGGAN
SIDELINE CUT: Hail to the GAA National Football League! To the perpetually poor cousin of The Championship, that fancy-dan summer show with its hot days and its history, its corporate boxes and six course lunches and its eternal parades. The League doesn't need any foppery: you take it as you find it. The League is blue-collar. If Bruce Springsteen lived in Ireland, he'd be a League man.
To that most unloved and under-appreciated sports competition in the world, of which managers and players alike claim that while they wouldn't mind winning it, nobody remembers it.
But some do! The guy from Monaghan or Kerry or Waterford who was, in 1985 or 1998 or 2009, given his League debut somewhere Godforsaken and taken off after 43 minutes just because he fumbled a couple of balls and the manager's eye glazed over him for the rest of the League before he was finally "released" from the panel for the summer, after which he lost interest; he will remember the League for the rest of his life.
To the only concession to directions to obscure country grounds being a cardboard sign stuck to a telephone post with the word 'MATCH' in marker below an arrow pointing to a road that doesn't exist.
To the wonderfully lawless way in which people ditch their cars in hedgerows, gateways, on double-yellow lines and know they will get away with it because it is the League.
To the outlandish hats and caps (from all eras) which Irish people wear with abandon on those League Sundays when the temperature is hovering around zero and the wind is cutting. Anything goes when it comes to League headwear. Tokyo Fashion Week wouldn't be in it.
To the young lads who meet scandalised punters with a flinty eye as they charge four notes for a "programme" which consists of a folded sheet of A4 paper still warm from the printing machine.
To the polystyrene cups of tea filled to the brim, leaving no room for milk so patrons get a severe scalding when they take their first sip. (And to the etiquette observed by fans of both counties who share with scrupulous politeness the one spoon supplied to service the sugar requirements of several thousand Gaels).
To the way everyone crowds into the Stand for warmth except for the two lads on the terrace leaning into the gale, just to the left of the town-end goal. Because that's where they always stand.
To the way the Amhrán Na bhFiann always sounds as if it is being played on a vinyl record circa 1972.
To the way that in Tuam Stadium, it is still 1966.
To being able to hear the manager shouting at his players.To being able to hear what the players shout back.
To being alarmed at the realisation they are mostly just cursing at each other.
To the bravery of the linesmen, who always look peculiarly naked during the League, running up and down with their flags and trying to ignore the heckling.
To the unexpected privilege of seeing a once-in-a-generation star like Michael Donnellan or Brian McGuigan make his debut in the League.
Trippy departures
To the trippy departures of the League, where the one rule is that while very little usually happens, anything may happen. Banks of fog, hail storms, melees and fights, crazy scorelines, power cuts, seven and eight red cards, unexpected classics; anything goes in the League.
To the small band of fans who make a winter pilgrimage out of the League. To the Dubs who never cease to wonder that people actually willingly live outside the capital and book a hotel or BB in Tralee or Castlebar or Omagh just to experience what that must feel like.
They always have a good night and wouldn't swap the League for anything.
They know what all True League fans know: the All-Ireland championship is just for dilettantes and shapers.
To the way the big stars will stand on the field for anything up to half an hour on the field signing jerseys.
Military speed
To the military speed with which the crowd vanishes after League games in Aughrim or Tullamore, the stadium empty in five minutes flat.
To the noble and lonely sight of a losing manager after a League game, carrying his own gear bag as he exits the dressing room (and sometimes even turning off the lights) and trying to convince the awaiting press men that losing three matches on the trot signifies nothing.
To the groundsman and the way he will appear at the door of the press box when his stomach is rumbling tea-time and jingle his keys suggestively before asking the questions which for decades have announced last orders in GAA press boxes across Ireland: "Have ye no homes to go to?" "Will ye be long, lads?" "Is it a book ye're writing?"
To the ghostly magnificence of storied GAA stadiums – Semple Stadium or the Gaelic Grounds or Clones or Nowlan Park – when they are empty and it is too dark to see the pitch and it becomes easy to imagine the many great players who have thrilled thousands of people, right there.
To the mathematics which come into play towards the end of the League, when promotion and relegation is all that anyone cares about.
To the Hidden Signs: the first inkling your team might do something special this year. League games are choc-a-bloc with hidden signs.
To the crushing disappointment (something close to shame) t all relegated teams and supporters experience. And to the brief elation of "promotion".
To Division Four, the most neglected division in all of world sport.
To the impatience that governs the League final, when all counties are already training for the championship and the two teams in the final feel slightly guilty about being there, as if doing something they shouldn't be doing or the unwitting victims of a national hoax.
And so to their declarations that the League doesn't matter: "It's only the League". "Nobody remembers who won the League". "It's nice to win the League but you wouldn't be getting carried away."
To the League, which everyone loves more than they let on.
Quote from: ONeill on February 12, 2013, 11:38:07 PM
Quote from: ONeill on February 12, 2013, 11:23:17 PM
Get rid of league and provincials. Inter-county June, July and August & September - 4 leagues, 8 teams. Club - October, November, Feb, March, April & May.
Up Ulster.
Completely disagree.
Fighting the voices in your head?
Quote from: Captain Obvious on February 12, 2013, 11:44:22 PM
Quote from: ONeill on February 12, 2013, 11:38:07 PM
Quote from: ONeill on February 12, 2013, 11:23:17 PM
Get rid of league and provincials. Inter-county June, July and August & September - 4 leagues, 8 teams. Club - October, November, Feb, March, April & May.
Up Ulster.
Completely disagree.
Fighting the voices in your head?
;D
All this talk about "teams" not getting enough games if the league were abolished is irrelevant. "Teams" consist of players, and the individual players on the teams are getting so many games in some cases that top players are burning out and retiring from inter-county far younger than they would be if the schedule weren't as packed. John Mullane might still be playing for Waterford next year if the number of games per player were brought under control.
It's not the number of games but the scheduling of them and the amount of training lads do compared to games played. IC players should get between 6 and 12 proper competitive games and club players should have around 20 games a year. The club scene is more complicated but there are fairly easy solutions to the IC season and the crossover of teams and competitions.
The gaa better hope Donegal aren't successful for too long. McGuiness has already did his best to completely write off the McKenna Cup and is now out for the leagues as well. In fairness there has been a linkage between doing well (not necessarily winning them but certainly competing well in div 1) in the leagues and All Ireland success long before he came along.
I do understand the point though - it does seem a bit mad that counties play many more warm up games in the year than actual matches in the most important competition. Its also a bit crazy that the big teams don't meet more often in the main competition as well.
I've suggested before having 2 championships - an a&b. 2 groups of 8 in each championship. The top 4 go through to quarter finals. The b championship starts slightly earlier meaning the winner can play one of the 4th place teams in the main championship in a play off to get to the All Ireland Quarter finals meaning every team in Ireland still has a chance of winning it but gets to play at their own level. There would also be promotion relegation play offs. If this was marketed right I could see it being a real winner - the gaa could really push their season ticket scheme and maybe have like season tickets for the 3 home games. I think every team would play their 4th game as a double header in Croke Park so that its used plenty and their could be big weekends in it during the summer.
Maybe its a crazy idea but I think it could work. The provinicial championships could be played as a warm up. More certainty over fixtures would also help club games.
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 13, 2013, 12:25:05 AM
All this talk about "teams" not getting enough games if the league were abolished is irrelevant. "Teams" consist of players, and the individual players on the teams are getting so many games in some cases that top players are burning out and retiring from inter-county far younger than they would be if the schedule weren't as packed. John Mullane might still be playing for Waterford next year if the number of games per player were brought under control.
Will you stop the lights, with the exception of a certain bunch of players at a certain age who might be dual players playing college, club, county etc, most players don't get enough games
Quote from: Eamonnca1 on February 13, 2013, 12:25:05 AM
All this talk about "teams" not getting enough games if the league were abolished is irrelevant. "Teams" consist of players, and the individual players on the teams are getting so many games in some cases that top players are burning out and retiring from inter-county far younger than they would be if the schedule weren't as packed. John Mullane might still be playing for Waterford next year if the number of games per player were brought under control.
Would that be the same John Mullane who played a grand total of two NHL games last year?
John O'Brien had a very good article in the Sindo a few years back on the virtues of being happy with what we have:
QuoteDon't knock the back door -- it's the best system we have (http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/dont-knock-the-back-door-its-the-best-system-we-have-26743751.html)
The qualifiers free weaker counties from provincial shackles, says John O'Brien
19 JUNE 2011
It could be argued that the most electrifying moment of this year's All-Ireland football championship thus far came in Carrick-on-Shannon last Sunday when Mickey Quinn and Paddy McNaughton dipped their fingers into a linen sack and, one after the other, pulled out the names of Louth and Meath. A leaden summer dominated by the usual hysterical talk about declining skills and bad officiating had suddenly spat out a fixture worth getting worked up about.
It was a shot in the arm for the qualifier system, ten years old this summer, still unloved by many, only grudgingly accepted by the majority. Yet it threw up something the rigidly structured provincial championships could not: an unexpected gem that harked back to unfinished business from last year. A grudge match. It mightn't live up to the hype, of course, but the hype itself is something. God knows, the championship can do with every bit it can muster.
Not that it will salvage the qualifiers from the lowly position they occupy in people's affections. Any day now a giant is going to be toppled -- a Kerry or Cork or Tyrone -- and the inevitable cliché will ring out: "Sure the All- Ireland only begins in August anyway." The provincial championships, it is argued, have been irreparably devalued while the qualifiers are little more than a month-long accounting period from which the best teams will filter through for the real business of summer.
Such sentiments are fair enough, but a problem arises when the temptation becomes too strong to lump all the ills of the championship structure at the door of the qualifiers which weren't devised as a panacea in the first place. What they were was a heavily watered down version of the proposals put forward by the now defunct Football Development Committee in 1999. Instead of a wildly ambitious scheme to guarantee every county a minimum of 10 games came the tepid compromise of a second chance. A GAA solution to a GAA problem.
Whenever these debates surface, we might usefully wonder whether we are asking the right questions anyway. All the fanciful talk of intricate round-robin systems, Champions League variations or shifting provincial boundaries merely underscores the reality that the system is an ass to begin with. The thing is it has more than a century behind it and isn't for turning in any meaningful way. For better or worse we're largely stuck with it.
Those who decry the qualifier system do so largely on the grounds that is has diluted the do-or-die nature of provincial games and compromised the sanctity of the championship. Michael Delaney, chief executive of the Leinster Council, has long been an ardent critic of the qualifiers and the feeling persists that the hankering for the traditional knockout format is stronger than most of us would bargain for.
And that's the thing. Before you start talking about fancy new systems, you need to figure out how radical you're willing to be. What is the point, for instance, of talking about more elaborate structures without a mind for the demands it would place on amateur players? If amateurism is a sine qua non going forward, forget notions of extending the present format. And if we accept that clubs are the bedrock of the GAA, then it could be argued that the All-Ireland championship is already big enough for its boots.
As for the qualifiers themselves, criticism tends to centre around two issues in particular. The first is that they are weighted strongly in favour of the most successful counties, a familiar refrain when the GAA introduces any innovation. To which there is really only one appropriate response: well, lordy. A championship stretched out over five months that culminates, more often than not, with the two best teams in the country fighting for silverware in Croke Park. By definition should a championship be designed to do anything else?
Those who have trouble with that might be better off coming up with fresh ideas. A handicap system as used in horse racing, perhaps. The best players carrying lead weights in their shorts or, if that is too uncomfortable, maybe the Gooch could play blindfolded or the Cork midfield forced to play with their bootlaces tied together. Leitrim could select their entire stock of able-bodied men under the age of 35, allowing them to field 20 players instead of 15.
Or maybe you could leave the qualifiers out of it and focus on the real problem. The GAA investing in weaker counties, particularly at schools and underage level, helping them to close the gap with the top teams.
The real value of Mick O'Dwyer's presence in Wicklow, for example, wasn't any quick-fix notion the great man brought, but the impetus he provided the county board to get busy on the ground where the real hard work needed to be done.
The impetus is the thing. It was a credit to Wicklow that they realised their thrilling run through the 2009 qualifiers wasn't an elixir in itself for years of neglect and poor results, but something to build on that would take time and a lot of energy. There isn't a system alive that can compensate for hard work and dedication. The qualifiers can provide an impetus that, for various reasons, hasn't always come from the provincial championships. It is up to the counties themselves how they use it.
The other major issue is the apparent iniquity of provincial winners being denied a second chance and the dismal record of provincial finalists in the final qualifying round. Is it harsh, as Mickey Harte has argued, that provincial winners exit the championship after their first defeat? Perhaps. Yet is there nothing to be said for the momentum and confidence a team accumulates during an unbeaten run through the province?
And more importantly, they will enjoy the privilege of an extended break while their opponents are often coming off the back of a hard game the previous week. That's a pretty sizeable advantage in our book.
The defeated provincial finalists have a stronger case. Yet the fault here lies with the needlessly elongated nature of the provincial championships. It has nothing to do with the qualifiers per se. The statistics show that of the 40 fourth-round qualifiers played to date, only 15 provincial finalists have advanced. That's a win rate of less than 40 per cent. On the surface that appears alarming but there is a reasonably satisfactory explanation.
Take, for example, the oft-cited three years when none of the beaten provincial finalists managed to win: 2003, 2004 and 2010. If you examine each contest individually none of them, with the exception of Fermanagh beating Mayo in 2004, could be legitimately regarded as shocks. The favourites held sway almost every time. Back to an earlier point: the strong teams getting stronger as the summer wears on. That's championship football for you. And maybe it suggests too that the best teams don't always contest provincial finals.
There's a bottom-line argument in all of this. You could tweak the system in as many ways as you like and the structural faults would just manifest themselves in other ways. And, as now, the system would still bear the brunt of the blame. The best course of action is simply to enjoy what is there and stop hankering for idealistic solutions that don't exist. The championship started with a whimper in Ballybofey last month. It comes alive in Breffni Park next Saturday.
Ah, July approaching. Mid-summer and not a single county out of the All-Ireland yet. The games coming thick and fast. The tantalising prospect of a minnow suddenly getting a hint of form and putting a few wins together back to back. New heroes, fresh narratives. Just think how great the qualifiers could be if we only learned how to love them.
For jaybus sake. I dont know what age you lads are but I'm old enough to know that for the last 40 years the league has never really mattered from a football or hurling perspective. All sorts of different formats have been used down the years and regardless, teams will work their way through it in whatever way suits them with their thoughts fixed firmly on May or June and the start of the real competition.
But what has changed is the GAA's never ending move towards professionalism. Not for the players, God forbid, but for the administrators and the real estate. Years ago no one gave a suit about the standard of play in February. Now its an issue because its vital that The GAA is in the media, generate interset means generate money to feed the hungry monster on Jones Road. For guck sake they even have Kildare playing home games in Dublin to generate more "interest"
One way or another it will all end in tears for somebody.
Quote from: fearglasmor on February 13, 2013, 11:22:02 AM
For jaybus sake. I dont know what age you lads are but I'm old enough to know that for the last 40 years the league has never really mattered from a football or hurling perspective. All sorts of different formats have been used down the years and regardless, teams will work their way through it in whatever way suits them with their thoughts fixed firmly on May or June and the start of the real competition.
But what has changed is the GAA's never ending move towards professionalism. Not for the players, God forbid, but for the administrators and the real estate. Years ago no one gave a suit about the standard of play in February. Now its an issue because its vital that The GAA is in the media, generate interset means generate money to feed the hungry monster on Jones Road. For guck sake they even have Kildare playing home games in Dublin to generate more "interest"
One way or another it will all end in tears for somebody.
You're a firm believer in this notion of Headquarters being like Goldman Sachs, a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money (h/t to Matt Taibbi (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/the-great-american-bubble-machine-20100405)). In the case of the GAA though it just isn't true. Yes, the GAA has to make money to package the games in a manner it didn't have to in the past when it could rely on a captive audience. I think of the ghastly facilities we used put up with back in the day and say a prayer of thanks for all the money that has been generated to install such luxuries as running water. But in what way are the administrators filling their boots at the expense of the downtrodden players? The way some people go on about the supposed joys of working for Croke Park I'm amazed more players don't pack it in to take up a lucrative career in counting beans for the GAA.
QuoteYou're a firm believer in this notion of Headquarters being like Goldman Sachs, a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money (h/t to Matt Taibbi). In the case of the GAA though it just isn't true. Yes, the GAA has to make money to package the games in a manner it didn't have to in the past when it could rely on a captive audience. I think of the ghastly facilities we used put up with back in the day and say a prayer of thanks for all the money that has been generated to install such luxuries as running water. But in what way are the administrators filling their boots at the expense of the downtrodden players? The way some people go on about the supposed joys of working for Croke Park I'm amazed more players don't pack it in to take up a lucrative career in counting beans for the GAA.
No I think you picked me up wrong there. I'm not saying administrators are filling their boots at players expense. They are trying to fill the Associations boots, thats their"job". I am saying that the professional structures now set up for the administration and management of the GAA require a level of financial servicing that it never did before. And this is why it does matter now if the league is suit. Not to the teams or their managers or even the supporters, but to the organisation as a whole. I think you are basically agreeing wih me that
Quotethe GAA has to make money to package the games in a manner it didn't have to in the past
All I'm saying is nothing has changed in 40 years in regard to the standard of play in the leagues. But the importance of the perception of it has changed massively. And thats down to financial requirements.
Quote from: fearglasmor on February 13, 2013, 11:45:46 AM
QuoteYou're a firm believer in this notion of Headquarters being like Goldman Sachs, a great vampire squid wrapped around the face of humanity, relentlessly jamming its blood funnel into anything that smells like money (h/t to Matt Taibbi). In the case of the GAA though it just isn't true. Yes, the GAA has to make money to package the games in a manner it didn't have to in the past when it could rely on a captive audience. I think of the ghastly facilities we used put up with back in the day and say a prayer of thanks for all the money that has been generated to install such luxuries as running water. But in what way are the administrators filling their boots at the expense of the downtrodden players? The way some people go on about the supposed joys of working for Croke Park I'm amazed more players don't pack it in to take up a lucrative career in counting beans for the GAA.
No I think you picked me up wrong there. I'm not saying administrators are filling their boots at players expense. They are trying to fill the Associations boots, thats their"job". I am saying that the professional structures now set up for the administration and management of the GAA require a level of financial servicing that it never did before. And this is why it does matter now if the league is suit. Not to the teams or their managers or even the supporters, but to the organisation as a whole. I think you are basically agreeing wih me that Quotethe GAA has to make money to package the games in a manner it didn't have to in the past
All I'm saying is nothing has changed in 40 years in regard to the standard of play in the leagues. But the importance of the perception of it has changed massively. And thats down to financial requirements.
And down to the fact that all sports now have bigger seasons and more coverage. I can't believe some of the responses here not a sane thought among them. We can all disagree on issues but generally you can see where someone is coming from even if you don't agree with it but some of you boys have lost the plot altogether.
This is a quick summary of the season (in general terms).
Jan to March - Sigerson, U21 IC football, Fitz, pre-season IC tournaments, latter stages of club AI, half of national league, Railway cup. A handful of players could be involved in all of these while most club players have done nothing but start training. 2 of those 'competitions matter not a jot, RC and McKenna cup etc. One of them is only semi important, the league,our second biggest competition btw and 3 of them mark the end of the season while over lapping with the start of another.
April to May - Leagues conclude and IC championships start, who the hell knows what goes on at club level but the reigning AI champs who just finished their season are now back training again. Some championship games probably played but no idea when the next ones will be. U21 IC hurling cranking up now too.
June to September - Senior IC championship runs along as does U21 IC hurling but club season grinds to a halt in many counties.
September to November - Sigerson and Fitz start up, club All Ireland trundles back into existence as counties scramble to finish their championships in time.
You're right lads, it's a wonder more sports don't do it this way. The perfect system!
Quote from: Zulu on February 13, 2013, 12:50:10 PM
Utter nonsense, first off this is a discussion board so discussing these things is exactly what we do here or did you miss that memo? Next time you offer an opinion on the Waterford hurling team or management I'll be sure to direct you to the correct mechanisms to change the management or hoe to get the job yourself, Jesus!!
Oh, by all means put it on a discussion board. But it's a little cheeky to snarkily say that "Congress has always been a place for logical thought alright" while putting it up here, the greatest repository of inane thought outside of Bedlam.
While discussion boards undoubtedly veer wildly from the thoughtful and intelligent to the bizarre and frankly stupid, sometime within the one post, they are places for like-minded people to discuss issues so posting something daft is no crime. Congress on the other hand is supposed to be the guardian of the association yet it's clear many delegates turn up ill informed on many issues, some don't care about other issues and if a select band of people want something to go through or not they'll generally get their way. A group that can reject new rules trailed yet pass a hand pass rule that was never trailed is one whose credibility can justifiably be questioned.
Quote from: Zulu on February 13, 2013, 01:05:59 PM
And down to the fact that all sports now have bigger seasons and more coverage. I can't believe some of the responses here not a sane thought among them. We can all disagree on issues but generally you can see where someone is coming from even if you don't agree with it but some of you boys have lost the plot altogether.
Do you really expect to get a positive response with a comment like that?
Quote from: Zulu on February 13, 2013, 01:05:59 PMThis is a quick summary of the season (in general terms).
Jan to March - Sigerson, U21 IC football, Fitz, pre-season IC tournaments, latter stages of club AI, half of national league, Railway cup. A handful of players could be involved in all of these while most club players have done nothing but start training. 2 of those 'competitions matter not a jot, RC and McKenna cup etc. One of them is only semi important, the league,our second biggest competition btw and 3 of them mark the end of the season while over lapping with the start of another.
April to May - Leagues conclude and IC championships start, who the hell knows what goes on at club level but the reigning AI champs who just finished their season are now back training again. Some championship games probably played but no idea when the next ones will be. U21 IC hurling cranking up now too.
June to September - Senior IC championship runs along as does U21 IC hurling but club season grinds to a halt in many counties.
September to November - Sigerson and Fitz start up, club All Ireland trundles back into existence as counties scramble to finish their championships in time.
You're right lads, it's a wonder more sports don't do it this way. The perfect system!
No one is claiming it's perfect, but every one of its quirks is there for a reason. What comparison do we have in other sports for the Sigerson/Fitzgibbon? I'm sure rugby has an inter-varsity competition but I doubt I'm alone in not knowing how it works, who competes for it, when it takes place or who the winners of it were. Given all that, I'd say the GAA has nothing to learn from other sports. You mention the Under-21 and Club championships. These are relatively recent entries to the calendar without the pedigree of (say) the provincial championships yet they are wildly popular and with good reason. Personally I don't see the point of the Railway Cup but if fifteen lads want to get together and don the colours of their
cúige then why would I want to stop them? Call me insane (you already have), but I can see a reason for all of them. If we were starting from first principles, we wouldn't have a system as messy as we do. But we're not starting from first principles, and suggestions of grand plans for the reformation of the GAA are inevitably doomed.
Quote from: deiseach on February 13, 2013, 02:15:47 PM
Quote from: Zulu on February 13, 2013, 01:05:59 PM
And down to the fact that all sports now have bigger seasons and more coverage. I can't believe some of the responses here not a sane thought among them. We can all disagree on issues but generally you can see where someone is coming from even if you don't agree with it but some of you boys have lost the plot altogether.
Do you really expect to get a positive response with a comment like that?
Quote from: Zulu on February 13, 2013, 01:05:59 PMThis is a quick summary of the season (in general terms).
Jan to March - Sigerson, U21 IC football, Fitz, pre-season IC tournaments, latter stages of club AI, half of national league, Railway cup. A handful of players could be involved in all of these while most club players have done nothing but start training. 2 of those 'competitions matter not a jot, RC and McKenna cup etc. One of them is only semi important, the league,our second biggest competition btw and 3 of them mark the end of the season while over lapping with the start of another.
April to May - Leagues conclude and IC championships start, who the hell knows what goes on at club level but the reigning AI champs who just finished their season are now back training again. Some championship games probably played but no idea when the next ones will be. U21 IC hurling cranking up now too.
June to September - Senior IC championship runs along as does U21 IC hurling but club season grinds to a halt in many counties.
September to November - Sigerson and Fitz start up, club All Ireland trundles back into existence as counties scramble to finish their championships in time.
You're right lads, it's a wonder more sports don't do it this way. The perfect system!
No one is claiming it's perfect, but every one of its quirks is there for a reason. What comparison do we have in other sports for the Sigerson/Fitzgibbon? I'm sure rugby has an inter-varsity competition but I doubt I'm alone in not knowing how it works, who competes for it, when it takes place or who the winners of it were. Given all that, I'd say the GAA has nothing to learn from other sports. You mention the Under-21 and Club championships. These are relatively recent entries to the calendar without the pedigree of (say) the provincial championships yet they are wildly popular and with good reason. Personally I don't see the point of the Railway Cup but if fifteen lads want to get together and don the colours of their cúige then why would I want to stop them? Call me insane (you already have), but I can see a reason for all of them. If we were starting from first principles, we wouldn't have a system as messy as what do. But we're not starting from first principles, and suggestions of grand plans for the reformation of the GAA are inevitably doomed.
QuoteDo you really expect to get a positive response with a comment like that?
Did you really expect a different response when you basically told me to take up with congress rather than discussing it here?
QuoteNo one is claiming it's perfect, but every one of its quirks is there for a reason.
No they're not, they're there because we've maintained the basic structure of the GAA, the senior IC and club championships while adding layers to them and other competitions yet never looked at the overall structure. At the start you could play both club and county at senior level and both codes too if you were so inclined. But all these competitions were played on a winner takes all scenario so you could have played senior IC and club football and hurling yet played no more than 4 to 8 games, there was no league, no IC U21, Sigerson and Fitz were confined to a few Universities and played over a weekend, nor was there a club All Ireland. So as we added competitions, expanded others and made all of them some kind of round robin/second chance format we never looked at player eligibility or how these competitions dove tailed with the others. Now we have an utter mess of a season which at club level in particular is a complete disaster.
QuoteWhat comparison do we have in other sports for the Sigerson/Fitzgibbon? I'm sure rugby has an inter-varsity competition but I doubt I'm alone in not knowing how it works, who competes for it, when it takes place or who the winners of it were. Given all that, I'd say the GAA has nothing to learn from other sports.
If you play rugby for your University then you transfer from your club for that period, so all Uni rugby players have a full league and cup competitions to play in while not having to play with anyone else. Not saying that's the right way for the GAA but that's the way they do it in Irish rugby afaik. All sports have things to learn from each other.
QuoteYou mention the Under-21 and Club championships. These are relatively recent entries to the calendar without the pedigree of (say) the provincial championships yet they are wildly popular and with good reason. Personally I don't see the point of the Railway Cup but if fifteen lads want to get together and don the colours of their cúige then why would I want to stop them? Call me insane (you already have), but I can see a reason for all of them.
Outside of the Railway cup I don't want to get rid of any of them either, and I don't recall implying I did but I do want to give them there own space and restrict eligibility for players who are playing on too many teams. This is both for their own good, the supporters who pay into games and the efficient running of competitions for all GAA players.
QuoteIf we were starting from first principles, we wouldn't have a system as messy as what do. But we're not starting from first principles, and suggestions of grand plans for the reformation of the GAA are inevitably doomed.
Currently yes but that goes back to my point of sanity and logic, you yourself agree we wouldn't have the current system if we tore it up and started again so only fools continue on a path they know not to be the best yrt that is what we are doing in the GAA.
Im with Zulu here
Quote from: Zulu on February 13, 2013, 02:34:40 PM
Quote from: deiseach on February 13, 2013, 02:15:47 PM
Do you really expect to get a positive response with a comment like that?
Did you really expect a different response when you basically told me to take up with congress rather than discussing it here?
Okay, point taken. But if we're going to deal strictly with the rationality of comments, are you seriously suggesting that we should start the entire GAA season from scratch? If you were made King, you'd junk the entire season and rebuild it? Because to my mind that is lunacy. You're dealing with people here and you are going to piss off far more people who have their own particular GAA fiefdom than you would make people happy who are put out by some element of the current calendar.
This is one point where i agree heavily with zulu and others. I have little interest in league football, and it is a shame that i feel that way, as I love GAA for more than any other sport. But the fact is that it's just shadow boxing. Whenever managers have to feel inclined to say ' we are not getting carried away, still early in the season, blah blah' you would nearly think they are sorry for winning a few games incase they get a bit of false hype.
It has to be linked to the championship, and the whole thing condensed a bit more to allow for club time. If it continues to start in feb then it should all be over early august.
In saying that i'm a fan of the railway cup, even though i've only gone once, and will go to the final in croker if ulster are there.
Quote from: Orchardman on February 13, 2013, 03:42:53 PM
It has to be linked to the championship, and the whole thing condensed a bit more to allow for club time. If it continues to start in feb then it should all be over early august.
The Championship works. The League doesn't. The solution is to make the Championship more like the League?
Quote from: deiseach on February 13, 2013, 03:10:44 PM
Quote from: Zulu on February 13, 2013, 02:34:40 PM
Quote from: deiseach on February 13, 2013, 02:15:47 PM
Do you really expect to get a positive response with a comment like that?
Did you really expect a different response when you basically told me to take up with congress rather than discussing it here?
Okay, point taken. But if we're going to deal strictly with the rationality of comments, are you seriously suggesting that we should start the entire GAA season from scratch? If you were made King, you'd junk the entire season and rebuild it? Because to my mind that is lunacy. You're dealing with people here and you are going to piss off far more people who have their own particular GAA fiefdom than you would make people happy who are put out by some element of the current calendar.
Again, I'm debating it here so I accept it becomes far more complicated in the real world but if we have to confine discussions to what we can realistically change or influence then we may as well close up these sites and end 90% of the conversations people have anywhere in the world. In saying that I think a number of things could be done that would improve the situation without major overhaul. Two of the things that we could do for a start would be to schedule minor, U21 and senior IC hurling and football at the same time so players could only play one code in a given year. Secondly, only allow players to play at one IC level, either minor, U21 or senior. This would mean all IC action could be condensed into 4 to5 months and could be structured whatever way we want. There may not be much club activity at this time but at least it would have it's window as would the Uni's or schools.
If it was up to me I would start from scratch and I couldn't care less who I'd piss off as anyone pissed off is looking after themselves and not the association which is what we should all be doing.
Quote from: deiseach on February 13, 2013, 03:48:26 PM
Quote from: Orchardman on February 13, 2013, 03:42:53 PM
It has to be linked to the championship, and the whole thing condensed a bit more to allow for club time. If it continues to start in feb then it should all be over early august.
The Championship works. The League doesn't. The solution is to make the Championship more like the League?
I disagree, the championship doesn't work, the league is the far better competition it's just not done right. I love the league, I have the games on TV and my computer on to check how other games are going yet come championship you might have 2 games on a weekend and if the televised game is poor then the weekend can feel a bit of a let down.
Besides, if you link the league to the championship by seeding teams based on league performance for an open knockout championship you have a season that builds to a crescendo. Supporters of teams going poorly can still speculate about who they might meet if they can get 3 points from the last 2 games etc. and once the league is over you'll have 4 league winners but even those who have gone poorly can go well in championship if they get a run going.
Would you not prefer to be heading to Walsh park or the Fraher field to see a well prepared full strength Waterford team take on a full strength Tipp in a game that actually matters, there'd easily be 15,000 at that on a nice April or May Sunday? The winner maybe securing an easier path to the All Ireland final, the loser destined to meet Kilkenny on the way and when the championship starts rather than having one game toopen it up we'd have 16 knockout games in football and 8 in the hurling the following weekend and big(isn) names sure to fall at the first hurdle.
The first step should be relatively obvious to everyone - move Sigerson and co. to pre-Christmas as well as finishing the club AIs before the turkey's cooked. This would also have the added effect of removing any need for colleges to compete in the inter-county pre-season tournaments, easing the pull on u21 players' time in January to March.
One step at a time.
Quote from: Zulu on February 13, 2013, 03:57:14 PM
Again, I'm debating it here so I accept it becomes far more complicated in the real world but if we have to confine discussions to what we can realistically change or influence then we may as well close up these sites and end 90% of the conversations people have anywhere in the world. In saying that I think a number of things could be done that would improve the situation without major overhaul. Two of the things that we could do for a start would be to schedule minor, U21 and senior IC hurling and football at the same time so players could only play one code in a given year. Secondly, only allow players to play at one IC level, either minor, U21 or senior. This would mean all IC action could be condensed into 4 to5 months and could be structured whatever way we want. There may not be much club activity at this time but at least it would have it's window as would the Uni's or schools.
The problem with these suggestions is that hurling needs to be played in the summer. One of the reasons I'm a defender of the League is that if you abolished it you'd still have something to fill the gap like the Walsh Cup. So why not retain the League? Maybe it might work in football, which is more competitive than hurling as it is. But staging the championships in a window when there is no club activity? Someone is going to have to slop around on gluepot pitches in that scenario.
I go to all the NFL games ( Ros football that is) and can identify with some of the earlier pieces about the faithful shivering wooly hatted few that also go.
However it is "only" a pre real season tournament and will never be anything else.
I would suggest a short sharp League with smaller groups ( of 6) played in Feb/March and the finals the first weekend in April.
Provincial Championships in mid April to end of May as 4 stand alone competitions with some perk thrown in for the winners.
The All Ireland championship played either - A and B Championships in groups of 4 with Prov Champions seeded and given 2 hime games
or a knock out ( all 1 Championship or an A and B whichever) with Prov Champions seeded and given home draws till the Qtr Finals.
3 Week gap between rounds whether Group or Knockout format to allow club championships to progress in all Counties.
If Group system start 2nd weekend in June
If k.o start last weekend in June.
Agree with playing minor and U21 same weekends as Senior IC but you'd have to go U20 rather than U21.
Uni's are only back in September and December is out due to exams/course work deadlines etc., on top of that the weather can be extremely bad in November and December so that ability to play all games is far from guaranteed. The competitions are fine where they are, though maybe they could be brought forward a bit to early February. No reason the U21 couldn't be played in April or May if you weren't allowed to also play senior. Another benefit of this would be the ability of players to develop physically, psychologically and tactically/skills while not having to train with the seniors.
Quote from: Zulu on February 13, 2013, 04:08:04 PM
Would you not prefer to be heading to Walsh park or the Fraher field to see a well prepared full strength Waterford team take on a full strength Tipp in a game that actually matters, there'd easily be 15,000 at that on a nice April or May Sunday? The winner maybe securing an easier path to the All Ireland final, the loser destined to meet Kilkenny on the way and when the championship starts rather than having one game toopen it up we'd have 16 knockout games in football and 8 in the hurling the following weekend and big(isn) names sure to fall at the first hurdle.
15,000 in Fraher? Ahem. Leaving that aside, I already have that in the Munster championship. We play our enemies of long-standing in a game that really matters. The winner gets a tilt at the Munster title and an easier path to September and the loser gets a second chance in a match with a real knockout feel. I'm not completely set against the concept of an open draw, but one game in the Championship? We might as well go back to the old system.
QuoteThe problem with these suggestions is that hurling needs to be played in the summer. One of the reasons I'm a defender of the League is that if you abolished it you'd still have something to fill the gap like the Walsh Cup. So why not retain the League? Maybe it might work in football, which is more competitive than hurling as it is. But staging the championships in a window when there is no club activity? Someone is going to have to slop around on gluepot pitches in that scenario.
But hurling isn't played in the summer now, the majority of games are played in the winter/spring. I don't want to abolish the league I want to get rid of pointless games and if you link the league to the championship you make every game important. Waterford hurlers would get a minimum of 8 proper games (7 league games and 1 championship) in reality they should always win their first game unless they have a really bad league so they (and the supporters) get 9 proper games at regular intervals, the footballers get something similar and all played from April onwards when the weather is good. The clubs will know when they are playing and both U21 championships will be over so the CB can plan some sort of club structure, if Waterford got knocked out of the championship in round 2 (the QF in this system) then club activity can swing into action with all of July, August and September to themselves.
Quote15,000 in Fraher? Ahem. Leaving that aside, I already have that in the Munster championship. We play our enemies of long-standing in a game that really matters. The winner gets a tilt at the Munster title and an easier path to September and the loser gets a second chance in a match with a real knockout feel. I'm not completely set against the concept of an open draw, but one game in the Championship? We might as well go back to the old system.
Ok you're not going to get 15K into Fraher field but the point I'm making is linking the league means we can all get serious games on our doorsteps in nice weather which will make for much bigger crowds and media attention.
To see some of the recent attendances and attitude of teams to provincial championships then you'd question who much they matter anymore but the system I'm proposing provides many more important games, greater variation and a return to the do or die games of teh old championship while giving all teams a better more structured season.
Most inter-county matches are played in the spring, but most hurling matches are played in the summer and it's no coincidence that the games that everyone thinks matters are played in the summer. Playing seven or eight games, most of which are going to be bloodbaths, to set up a knockout competition where you are only guaranteed one game . . . well, it certainly doesn't seem like an improvement on the current model to me. As for clubs being able to plan around a fixed season, there's nothing stopping them doing that anyway. To me, that's the crux of the matter in the GAA - the cavalier manner in which club championships are treated. They don't postpone games in Kilkenny because they're having a good run in the championship. We had the scenario in Waterford once where a football match was postponed because the Minor hurlers were doing well, even though said hurler wasn't playing football at the time! People get too hung up on the structures of competitions as a solution to the GAA's ills when the problems often run deeper and are not going to be solved by cosmetic changes to the calendar.
Not sure how you make out most hurling games are played in the summer, Waterford will play a most of their league games in March and April and they've played all their Walsh cup games in the winter so if they lose their Munster championship first round they may only play a further 2 or 3 games so even if, with May league encounters, they play more summer games, it ain't by much.
Why do you say the league games would be bloodbaths? And the championship always ends up at knockout anyway, the current system only guarantees teams 2 games but up to that point they play semi serious games. My format guarantees them 8 games, all serious, surely a better format for players and supporters.
There's plenty stopping them from running a proper club championship, I'm not overly familiar with Kilkenny but they are a small (in reality one code) county so it's easier for them to run off their club season. What about Dublin or Cork for example, they don't know when their football or hurling teams will be playing bar the first round, if they win they go one route if the lose it's another and then throw in the U21 hurling to the mix and clubs are seriously squeezed.
I saw that but Waterford have always been a disaster, even before the hurlers got good and I'd know as I played championship there for a few years.
Quote from: Zulu on February 13, 2013, 04:08:04 PM
... the championship doesn't work...
Attendances and viewing figures would suggest otherwise.
Only if you take those as a barometer of success and even then attendances are down on what they were before, recession or not. Besides I'm not suggesting the current system has no positives, of course it does, and any alternative would have negatives. It isn't about finding the perfect format, just a better one. I'd wager if my system (which I'm not saying is the only way, or even the best way, forward) was implemented you'd have bigger crowds, bigger TV viewership and more media hype than you do currently.
the calendar might need tweaking, the hurling championship definitely needs amending, but in my opinion the football championship format is close to perfect. It would be perfect if each of the provinces had an equal or near equal amount of teams.
The "backdoor" gets a lof of abuse, but the reality is that every game in championship is knockout.
Every team only has one chance to win their provincial title (i.e. lose once and you're out)
Then when you are finished with the provincial championship (either through winning it or getting knocked out of it), you get one chance in the All Ireland series.
A champions league system could never work. Dead rubbers in so-called championship football would be a disaster. If we ever decide to go professional, then we can think about bringing in a champions league style system!
Hound, I agree a champions league system would be a disaster but the format I've suggested wouldn't as every team has something to play for to the last game. Furthermore, all teams have a realistic chance of silverware, their own division and it also provides team a path to a better All Ireland run. Take Longford for example, they've gone from division 4 to division 2 so when they were in division 4 they were guaranteed to meet a division 1 team in the championship, when in division 3 they had to meet a division 2 team but now they'd meet a division 3 team in the first round of my championship so the chances of a run in the All Ireland series increases. This would/should/could mean a growing sense of excitement in Longford as their team progresses in the league and in the run up to each championship.
As it stands, whatever excitement that a good league run generates is always deflated by the knowing opinions of all that 'it's only the league'. I don't know how you can say the current format is near perfect, not only is January to May (5 shagging months) glorified shadow boxing but even the provincial championships are undermined and any team who has won one or two of them recently are only focused on winning the All Ireland. Who had the happier winter Galway or Kilkenny?
We should never discuss the league or the championship, it's the season that we should discuss and when we do that I don't know how anyone can conclude it's anything other than a disaster. The piece below is taken from a piece in todays Examiner about a recent youth GAA survey;
QuoteThe issue of fixtures is also an area of concern for older teenagers and young adults, according to Campion.
"It was a big thing that came up. They have said they are not getting enough games. We are looking at why young people are leaving the GAA and that point did come up as one of the reasons.
"If your county is doing really well, the club scene is paused. One person in Mayo said to me his friend had gone on the J1 to America, came back and still the club hadn't played the game. He said he'd have been better going on the J1 as well."
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