a great day for football

[Zulu]

There is a good deal of paranoia amongst the Ulster posters here, I can't speak for anyone else but I really enjoyed both Armagh and Tyrone in their pomp. Both teams brought a ferocious intensity to their games and were wonderful to watch, however they did employ overly defensive tactics at times and Tyrone in particular never needed to do so IMO. And these tactics have been taken on and developed to the nth degree by teams of far less talent which led us to last weekends woeful display of football.  The point some Ulster posters seem to be missing is that attacking football played as 15 V 15 isn't necessarily naive football, yes you'll turn over the ball more and yes you'll probably concede more but if you score more then what's the problem, if as some lads are saying it is a results business.

[Zulu]

15 V 15 is completely naive football. You have even highlighted in your comment after this one that yes you will turn the ball over, and yes you will probably concede more. Why would any team be prepared to turn the ball over, or concede more - just because their team have the potential to score more? Thats naivete of the highest order. Why would a team with any desire to win concede an inch to their opposition by handing them possession??? It simply makes no sense.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion Puckoon but the object of championship football is to win games so if you go out with the objective of scoring as much as you can and depending on your defenders to defend are you saying you will always lose? You point out that I conceded you will probably concede more playing 15 V 15 but if you get bodies behind the ball you surely appreciate that you'll probably score less so I could argue that that is a foolish tactic as you are limiting your scoring potential in the hope of conceding less.

Anyway all teams funnel players back now (if for no other reason because defenders attack more) but I always believed you should keep your best scoring forwards close to the goal and get the ball into them as fast and often as possible. And if you have a large number of scoring forwards you should have most of them (if not all) on the pitch. Anyway this year could be the third year in a row that Ulster haven't a team in the semis and teams like WM, Fermanagh, Limerick, Kildare have all fallen by the wayside. While Kerry, Wexford and Cork are in the semi finals, all teams who play fast and often 50/50 ball into their forwards.

[Tyrone Dreamer]

So you think if attackers lose the ball they should stand back and let the opposition carry the ball out of defence?

[Puckoon]

15 V 15 is completely naive football. You have even highlighted in your comment after this one that yes you will turn the ball over, and yes you will probably concede more. Why would any team be prepared to turn the ball over, or concede more - just because their team have the potential to score more? Thats naivete of the highest order. Why would a team with any desire to win concede an inch to their opposition by handing them possession??? It simply makes no sense.

Of course you're entitled to your opinion Puckoon but the object of championship football is to win games so if you go out with the objective of scoring as much as you can and depending on your defenders to defend are you saying you will always lose? You point out that I conceded you will probably concede more playing 15 V 15 but if you get bodies behind the ball you surely appreciate that you'll probably score less so I could argue that that is a foolish tactic as you are limiting your scoring potential in the hope of conceding less.

Anyway all teams funnel players back now (if for no other reason because defenders attack more) but I always believed you should keep your best scoring forwards close to the goal and get the ball into them as fast and often as possible. And if you have a large number of scoring forwards you should have most of them (if not all) on the pitch. Anyway this year could be the third year in a row that Ulster haven't a team in the semis and teams like WM, Fermanagh, Limerick, Kildare have all fallen by the wayside. While Kerry, Wexford and Cork are in the semi finals, all teams who play fast and often 50/50 ball into their forwards.

Indeed Zulu, its a fair point, and a double edged sword.

With men behind the ball, you have the ability to break at speed - and as Kerry did yesterday, moving in every direction from defence once they gained possession. You also have an abundance of space, for a 1, 2, or 3 man full forward line to take their opponents to the cleaners when you catch them on the break.
The problem with this "blanket defence" is that while it has been mimicked by many teams, very few have done so with the success that Tyrone and Armagh (and to an extent even Kerry) due to the limitations of players in attack.

Many teams have now tried the big full foward also, in copying Kerry and it hasnt worked either. Its amazing how little complaining there is about aimless 50-50 or 40-60 ball into the fullforward line. Id rather watch a team defending en masse and bursting forward than long balls into a full forward where the defence continually mops up. Thats the key however, the possession team needs to attack at speed. No doubt that a team defending like that and not playing good attacking football when in possession is terrible to watch.

Anyways, as another poster said horses for courses and opinion entitlement shall prevail.

[winsamsoon]

Lads i really don't know why you feel the need to justify the style of play adopted by Armagh and Tyrone. The fact that they were far superior in defense than any other team over the last 8 or 9 yearsis clear to be seen, Particularly Armagh. However having watched many Armagh Tyrone games i can tell you it was always Tyrones attacking flare that I feared.I never once said that Armagh wouldn't beat Tyrone because they ad a cracker defense. As an attacking Unit particularly in 2003 and 2005 Tyrone were simply ruthless and in some cases unmarkable. This only served to irritate the southerners who couldn't admit that an Ulster team was actually better at something that the aristocrats of  Kerry or Dublin were. What has happened now is simple. All the oher teams have adopted te tactic Armagh and Tyrone were employing. All teams are now filtering players back because defenders are now attackes aswell . Corner backs now are big time involved in setting up attacks, a prime example would be mc menamin. So there is a need for Forwards to track back and there isn't  a better feeling as a cornerback when you look up and see you're corner forward tackling like his life depended on it and turning over the ball. Football has evolved the sooner we realise that it is a game of diversity and stop criticising it the better. Kerry this year are a solid unit, but watch them when the loose a ball in the forward line they swamp the opposition as any good forward would do they also filter back. Give credit were credit is due and quit buying into the media propaganda spouted by Spillane and born out of jealousy.

[Zulu]

Like I said before Puckoon every 'tactic' has its advantages and disadvantages and I think all lovers of football want to see quality games where both attacking and defensive skills are in evidence. Those games are rare enough in any era (or any sport) but I hope the next few years might see a better balance between the intensity of the Tyrone/Armagh game and the direct football of Galway/Kerry. If we do I think many more people will begin to appreciate the brilliance of the game of football and that can only be a good thing.

[winsamsoon]

I would think we would all agree and second that Zulu

[Puckoon]

Here Here






























So long as Tyrone beat dublin.

[reddgnhand]

Like I said before Puckoon every 'tactic' has its advantages and disadvantages and I think all lovers of football want to see quality games where both attacking and defensive skills are in evidence. Those games are rare enough in any era (or any sport) but I hope the next few years might see a better balance between the intensity of the Tyrone/Armagh game and the direct football of Galway/Kerry. If we do I think many more people will begin to appreciate the brilliance of the game of football and that can only be a good thing.

So this week its because teams are being too defensive thats destroying the game. Last week we were told that it was the decline in kick passing, Spillane even had a article along these lines. Last night on the Sunday Game they highlighted the Kerry goal as how football should be played. The move started in the kerry back line and when the ball ended in the net there was not one foot pass. In the last minute of the Cork v Kildare game Cork must have had every player in the square defending their lead no mention of them being negative. Had it been a Northern team they would have been accused of being cynical.         

[Zulu]

Like I said before Puckoon every 'tactic' has its advantages and disadvantages and I think all lovers of football want to see quality games where both attacking and defensive skills are in evidence. Those games are rare enough in any era (or any sport) but I hope the next few years might see a better balance between the intensity of the Tyrone/Armagh game and the direct football of Galway/Kerry. If we do I think many more people will begin to appreciate the brilliance of the game of football and that can only be a good thing.

So this week its because teams are being too defensive thats destroying the game. Last week we were told that it was the decline in kick passing, Spillane even had a article along these lines. Last night on the Sunday Game they highlighted the Kerry goal as how football should be played. The move started in the kerry back line and when the ball ended in the net there was not one foot pass. In the last minute of the Cork v Kildare game Cork must have had every player in the square defending their lead no mention of them being negative. Had it been a Northern team they would have been accused of being cynical.         

No they wouldn't but I will accuse you of misplaced paranoia.

[Doohicky]

Like I said before Puckoon every 'tactic' has its advantages and disadvantages and I think all lovers of football want to see quality games where both attacking and defensive skills are in evidence. Those games are rare enough in any era (or any sport) but I hope the next few years might see a better balance between the intensity of the Tyrone/Armagh game and the direct football of Galway/Kerry. If we do I think many more people will begin to appreciate the brilliance of the game of football and that can only be a good thing.

So this week its because teams are being too defensive thats destroying the game. Last week we were told that it was the decline in kick passing, Spillane even had a article along these lines. Last night on the Sunday Game they highlighted the Kerry goal as how football should be played. The move started in the kerry back line and when the ball ended in the net there was not one foot pass. In the last minute of the Cork v Kildare game Cork must have had every player in the square defending their lead no mention of them being negative. Had it been a Northern team they would have been accused of being cynical.         

No they wouldn't but I will accuse you of misplaced paranoia.

So Tyrone play defensive against Mayo in the final minutes = nasty football
Cork play defensive against Kildare in the final minutes = Playing Clever

Just making sure I have this right here since it was stated earlier that Tyrone played ugly at the end of the Mayo game...

[reddgnhand]

Like I said before Puckoon every 'tactic' has its advantages and disadvantages and I think all lovers of football want to see quality games where both attacking and defensive skills are in evidence. Those games are rare enough in any era (or any sport) but I hope the next few years might see a better balance between the intensity of the Tyrone/Armagh game and the direct football of Galway/Kerry. If we do I think many more people will begin to appreciate the brilliance of the game of football and that can only be a good thing.

So this week its because teams are being too defensive thats destroying the game. Last week we were told that it was the decline in kick passing, Spillane even had a article along these lines. Last night on the Sunday Game they highlighted the Kerry goal as how football should be played. The move started in the kerry back line and when the ball ended in the net there was not one foot pass. In the last minute of the Cork v Kildare game Cork must have had every player in the square defending their lead no mention of them being negative. Had it been a Northern team they would have been accused of being cynical.         

No they wouldn't but I will accuse you of misplaced paranoia.

Was Cork negative and too defensive in the last minutes of yesterdays game ? Is short hand passing bad for the game?

[his holiness nb]

Just making sure I have this right here since it was stated earlier that Tyrone played ugly at the end of the Mayo game...

I dont think he meant the style of play as in defensive or attacking. I think he meant "ugly" in McMenamin lying on the ball at the side of the pitch when Mayo were trying to take a quick kick, or when he had a free in the last minute and stopped to tie his lace.

I could be wrong, but thats the sort of carry on I imagine he means. Nothing to do with defensive. More so deliberate time wasting.

[mackers]

You're praising Galway for going "toe to toe" wiht Kerry yesterday - do you think it's much consolation to Galway today that it was a good game for the neurtral?

Yes it was a consolation, I would not go to watch Galway live if they returned to the tactics used under Peter Forde. We should stick to what we know best. As I posted on the Galway match thread I could not believe the negativity and cynicism Armagh engaged in yesterday, constant messing off the ball. Id be disgusted if Galway ever had to resort to that to win football matches.

As for the statement that Armagh re-introduced the direct game in Gaelic football , it is rightly pointed out that Galway in 1998 did so. Not only that but did so by playing 6 forwards not two up front on their own.

What a pile of sanctimonious claptrap!!! I watched Padraig Joyce hitting Dara O'Se after the ball had gone on a few occasions, let he who has not sinned cast the first stone!! EVERY team has cynical players, the most cynical tackle in the first match was the tackle on Aaron Kernan at the end of the first half.  Brian Mallon was hauled down whilst running through for a score in the second half.  Mattie Forde was diving (cynical play!). What colour is the sky in your world?
On the other theme of being too defensive then we have to hold our hands up. Very disappointing as earlier in the year I thought Peter McDonnell had us moving away from our overly defensive play which was the norm in the latter Kernan years. But as the pressure came on in the championship we reverted to type, very disappointing.

[DUBSFORSAM1]

Arthur - Puke football to me is the emphasis on defending over attacking, picking forwards for their defensive work, crowding back 12/13 players inside your 45 because your backs can't cope without the added protection, picking 1/2 scoring forwards only, a total inability to kick scores because the players are picked for running ability rather than footballing ability, 3rd man tacklling, off the ball fouling, cynical dragging of jerseys everywhere to slow down attacks.....

Dubs you're beginning to sound like a broken record on this issue. Before you go, which you usually do when we get down to te fine detail of this discussion, please tell me what type of defensive formation Wexford employed yesterday?

Would that have been leaving Malone as the spare man in defence when Armagh brought O'Rourke back into defence leaving Wexford with a spare man in defence for most of the game...which is why they won all the kickouts going...