Welcome to Stoneyford

[his holiness nb]

If you are that desperate to even things up that you need to suggest voting for Sinn Fein is bigotry, then my initial guess must be right!!

Pitiful comment (on top of your previous pitiful comment).

So a general observation, in which I clearly acknowledged there are problems on both sides, and which I said could well be wrong is pitiful?

As is saying that voting for Sinn fein is not an act of bigotry?

Thats crazy Sammy, even by your standards.

Or is the problem that my own observations, based on a combination of personal, eye witness and media reports arent what you wanted to hear?

Dont worry too much about it Sammy, as Solomon said, its not something you can measure, was just an observation.

Although if my observations said that there seemed to me ("seemed to me" being very important words here) that the Nationalist community was more bigoted that the Unionists, you would have kept your sly mouth shut wouldnt you 

[SammyG]

As is saying that voting for Sinn fein is not an act of bigotry?

Thats crazy Sammy, even by your standards.

So you think voting for a mob of sectarian gangsters isn't a display of bigottry. Fcuk me I wouldn't like to think what you'd have to do to be called a bigot.

[his holiness nb]

As is saying that voting for Sinn fein is not an act of bigotry?

Thats crazy Sammy, even by your standards.

So you think voting for a mob of sectarian gangsters isn't a display of bigottry. Fcuk me I wouldn't like to think what you'd have to do to be called a bigot.

So there we have it from Sammy G.
Vote Sinn Fein and you are a bigot.

Thus proving my initial observation!

Its come full circle!

[SammyG]

As is saying that voting for Sinn fein is not an act of bigotry?

Thats crazy Sammy, even by your standards.

So you think voting for a mob of sectarian gangsters isn't a display of bigottry. Fcuk me I wouldn't like to think what you'd have to do to be called a bigot.

So there we have it from Sammy G.
Vote Sinn Fein and you are a bigot.

Thus proving my initial observation!

Its come full circle!

How in the name of fcuk does me opposing sectarian bigottry, prove that all Unionists are sectarian bigots?

[his holiness nb]

As is saying that voting for Sinn fein is not an act of bigotry?

Thats crazy Sammy, even by your standards.

So you think voting for a mob of sectarian gangsters isn't a display of bigottry. Fcuk me I wouldn't like to think what you'd have to do to be called a bigot.

So there we have it from Sammy G.
Vote Sinn Fein and you are a bigot.

Thus proving my initial observation!

Its come full circle!

How in the name of fcuk does me opposing sectarian bigottry, prove that all Unionists are sectarian bigots?

Why are you asking me?
I never suggested that.

Jaysus you are some man for talking the auld shite Sammy!

[SammyG]

As is saying that voting for Sinn fein is not an act of bigotry?

Thats crazy Sammy, even by your standards.

So you think voting for a mob of sectarian gangsters isn't a display of bigottry. Fcuk me I wouldn't like to think what you'd have to do to be called a bigot.

So there we have it from Sammy G.
Vote Sinn Fein and you are a bigot.

Thus proving my initial observation!

Its come full circle!

How in the name of fcuk does me opposing sectarian bigottry, prove that all Unionists are sectarian bigots?

Why are you asking me?
I never suggested that.

Jaysus you are some man for talking the auld shite Sammy!

Sorry if I've missed what you're saying but you said I'd proved the original point (namely all Unionists are bigots) and I asked why? If that isn't what you meant then try again.

[his holiness nb]

you said I'd proved the original point (namely all Unionists are bigots) and I asked why? If that isn't what you meant then try again.

Namely all Unionists are bigots indeed 

This is what I actually said.

"but it seems to me that the levels of sectarian violence and downright bigotry seems to be much higher from the unionist community these days"

Now if you got ALL UNIONISTS ARE BIGOTS from that, well I really despair.

[deiseach]

From a different perspective the rise in support for Sinn Fein could be viewed as an increase in bigotry within the nationalist community. How many other "politicians'"careers would survive carrying the coffin of someone who had just butchered 9 of his own constituents? In how many other countries would a convicted murderer be elected to an administrative body of any sort?

After most revolutionary wars, I'd say the total would be approaching 100%. As you say, perspective matters.

And again, the "troubles" were not a war from everyone's perspective.

Agreed.

[MW]

My God, it's almost as if some Protestant children were brought up to hate Catholics just as erm,  German children were taught to hate Jews under the Nazis.

Only if you're an idiot with little or no knowledge of the Third Reich.

The first 15 words of your sentence were accurate, but, as ever, they just didn't make sexy enough copy...

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

As is saying that voting for Sinn fein is not an act of bigotry?

Thats crazy Sammy, even by your standards.

So you think voting for a mob of sectarian gangsters isn't a display of bigottry. Fcuk me I wouldn't like to think what you'd have to do to be called a bigot.

Sammy even by your standards that is a steaming pile of dung statement!

[MW]

I'm sure this wont go down well with some posters, and I know theres people like this on both sides before ye piss yer cacks, but it seems to me that the levels of sectarian violence and downright bigotry seems to be much higher from the unionist community these days.

Of course I dont have facts of figures to back this up (before Sammy asks), its just a general observation.

Maybe its just me.

Hmm. I have to say, and I know I'm only dealing with part of your point here, my experience on here and on Slugger from reading and indeed receiving the comments of a fair few (a minority, obviously) posters is that there's plenty of this sort of attitude:

Of course it's true your holiness because unionist identity and culture is essentially based on sectarianism. There is no such thing as unionist ideology and in lieu of the fact that they no longer (if ever) fit with the modern multicultural British identity, the only thing they have which identifies them as being different from the natives is their religion. Clinging to and emphasising that difference, even though most of them will never have darkened the door of a Church, gives them an identity. Just listen to them on the radio, when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century.

Sectarian attitudes are often rooted in stereotypes and preconceptions. Those of sectarian Protestants towards Catholics (note to Donagh, I'm using the 'religious' label here in an effort to avoid a debate with anyone who might challenge the meaning of the term 'sectarianism') no doubt involve certain stereotypes. It seems to me that anti-Protestant (or anti-unionist, if you prefer) sectarianism is also based on certain sterotypes - leading among them is the idea that the Prods are evil supremacist bigots.

A few eclectic (and I'll accept, completely anecdotal unless you've seen or remember the threads in question) - I said on one thread in here about favourite comedies that I disliked Only Fools and Horses and especially the Del Boy character - I was met with a comment that this wasn't surprising, and an allusion agreed to by another poster that I was some sort of dour humourless DUP supporter. To give another example, if I or any other 'unionist' poster debate NI history/politics with lynchbhoy, for example, we'll be met with the accusation that we're trotting out the 'oo/dup/loyalist' line that has been drilled into us all. Another example was a recent thread on Slugger on the meanings of Britishness and Irishness, one poster was questioning the meaning of Britishness in a none-too-subtle attempt to say 'you unionists don't really have an identity'  - when she was told that going to Venice and asking the natives about their Italianness mightn't produce a form of answer like she wanted, she then made a comment along the lines that this reference to 'the natives' was racist and that this showed the underlying thoughts of unionists. In this way it's a bit like that "mask slipping" comments that are seen now and again on here in relation to myself and other posters.

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Well put points MW.

Would you agree with Sammy's statement that people who vote Sinn Fein are Bigots?

[MW]

Of course it's true your holiness because unionist identity and culture is essentially based on sectarianism.

That's extremely inaccurate. Some strands of unionism have been and are. To speak personally, my own unionism is based on support for the Union, the fact that I identify with the British state and people(s), and the fact that Northern Ireland is my country and Britishness is my nationality.

There is no such thing as unionist ideology

Wrong. Try reading for example Paul Bew's 'Ideology and the Irish Question'.

and in lieu of the fact that they no longer (if ever) fit with the modern multicultural British identity,

Two points here. One - who does? If you pick out one strand of modern British identity, inevitably it won't 'fit in' with the rest. And two, multiculturalism (note before anyone tries - this is not associated with multiracialism) is a creed seems to have now been rejected by the establishment and indeed is identified with some of the major problems facing British society.

the only thing they have which identifies them as being different from the natives is their religion.

As ever one little phrase of yours provides a goldmine for challenging.

Firstly, there's that phrase 'the natives' again. (Look at what I said above, folks). An unsubtle effort to paint unionists as supremacist racial bigots, perhaps paint them in the light of a 20th-century white settler in Africa looking down on the Africans? Or do you not see unionists as 'native' to this place, even through they have roots here going back centuries?

Assuming you mean 'nationalists' when you say 'the natives', if you think there are absolutely no cultural differences among communities in Northern Ireland or across the island, then you're daft. And there sure are political differences - the words 'unionist' and 'nationalist' should be a clue...

Clinging to and emphasising that difference,

Seriously, you really think it's only unionists who do this? Nationalists never talk about 'the nationalist community', or 'the Catholic community', for example? Or indeed point out how much more sectarian themmuns are...?

even though most of them will never have darkened the door of a Church

You think most unionists have never been in a church? Really? Where do you get that from?

Just listen to them on the radio, when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century.

This is another one that seems to have been invented solely based on something concocted in your head. And again, I'm going to have to break it down into several parts, so rich it is for demolition:

1 - You quite regularly hear 'them' on the radio referring to republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists.
2 - You also regularly hear nationalists on the radio talking about Catholics and Protestants. (Indeed there have been planty of cases when the religious label has been inappropriately used by nationalist/republican politicians, e.g. the Shinners claiming that the UUP back in the day wanting a start to IRA decomissioning before Sinn Féin entered the Executive was simply them 'not wanting Catholics in government'.)
3 - Do you seriously believe the rest of the island of Ireland apart from unionists left religious labels back in the 18th century? Have you absolutely no knowledge of Irish history or politics.
4 - Using the label 'Blueshirts' while referring to leaving the 'nonsense' of religious labels back in the past is more than a little ironic. There are Protestants and Catholics in Ireland today. There haven't been Blueshirts for 70 years.

[MW]

Well put points MW.

Would you agree with Sammy's statement that people who vote Sinn Fein are Bigots?

Don't worry I was getting to that! No, I woudn't agree with that. I know honourable non-sectarian people who vote for SF. I detest the fact that the party supported a campaign of mass murder (and indeed many among it's leadership participated in said campaign) during the Troubles, and still celebrates some of the perpetrators, but I don't believe that voting for SF means that someone is a bigot.

[his holiness nb]

I'm sure this wont go down well with some posters, and I know theres people like this on both sides before ye piss yer cacks, but it seems to me that the levels of sectarian violence and downright bigotry seems to be much higher from the unionist community these days.

Of course I dont have facts of figures to back this up (before Sammy asks), its just a general observation.

Maybe its just me.

Hmm. I have to say, and I know I'm only dealing with part of your point here, my experience on here and on Slugger from reading and indeed receiving the comments of a fair few (a minority, obviously) posters is that there's plenty of this sort of attitude:

Of course it's true your holiness because unionist identity and culture is essentially based on sectarianism. There is no such thing as unionist ideology and in lieu of the fact that they no longer (if ever) fit with the modern multicultural British identity, the only thing they have which identifies them as being different from the natives is their religion. Clinging to and emphasising that difference, even though most of them will never have darkened the door of a Church, gives them an identity. Just listen to them on the radio, when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century.

Sectarian attitudes are often rooted in stereotypes and preconceptions. Those of sectarian Protestants towards Catholics (note to Donagh, I'm using the 'religious' label here in an effort to avoid a debate with anyone who might challenge the meaning of the term 'sectarianism') no doubt involve certain stereotypes. It seems to me that anti-Protestant (or anti-unionist, if you prefer) sectarianism is also based on certain sterotypes - leading among them is the idea that the Prods are evil supremacist bigots.

A few eclectic (and I'll accept, completely anecdotal unless you've seen or remember the threads in question) - I said on one thread in here about favourite comedies that I disliked Only Fools and Horses and especially the Del Boy character - I was met with a comment that this wasn't surprising, and an allusion agreed to by another poster that I was some sort of dour humourless DUP supporter. To give another example, if I or any other 'unionist' poster debate NI history/politics with lynchbhoy, for example, we'll be met with the accusation that we're trotting out the 'oo/dup/loyalist' line that has been drilled into us all. Another example was a recent thread on Slugger on the meanings of Britishness and Irishness, one poster was questioning the meaning of Britishness in a none-too-subtle attempt to say 'you unionists don't really have an identity'  - when she was told that going to Venice and asking the natives about their Italianness mightn't produce a form of answer like she wanted, she then made a comment along the lines that this reference to 'the natives' was racist and that this showed the underlying thoughts of unionists. In this way it's a bit like that "mask slipping" comments that are seen now and again on here in relation to myself and other posters.

In fairness, MW you didnt need to go into such depth to show that a) not all Unionists are bigoted, and b) there are people as bad on the other side, as I have already clarified that I also beleive this.

My point was that there seems to be more incidents involving sectarianism catching peoples attention coming from the Unionist community than from the Nationalist community. Thats all, I'm not saying its all from one side, as it clearly isnt, but more from one that the other.

Regarding you comments about the treatment you get on here, I would agree you get some stick. But given the huge amount of posters here, its a small minority who do this, and many others defend you occasionally when someone goes over the top.

On the contrary, given the much smaller numbers on OWC, the reaction I got during my stay (and no matter what may be suggested, I was polite at all times until my final post) over there was quite alarming. It was like I was waving a red "GAA" flag at a crowd of angry bulls. And not one of the decent posters over there spoke up against some of the abuse.

So the fact that there is sectarianism on both sides is irrelevant, as this is an undeniable fact.

Mine was just a personal observation, then again, maybe the media are deliberately trying to make the Unionist community look worse. The media can be very powerful and this is easily done.

Or maybe not, and my observation is true, its impossible to prove either way.