Welcome to Stoneyford

[Solomon Kane]

From a different perspective the rise in support for Sinn Fein could be viewed as an increase in bigotry within the nationalist community. How many other "politicians'"careers would survive carrying the coffin of someone who had just butchered 9 of his own constituents? In how many other countries would a convicted murderer be elected to an administrative body of any sort?

After most revolutionary wars, I'd say the total would be approaching 100%. As you say, perspective matters.

And again, the "troubles" were not a war from everyone's perspective.

[SammyG]

Of course it's true your holiness because unionist identity and culture is essentially based on sectarianism.

Complete horseshit

There is no such thing as unionist ideology

I've no idea what that even means. There are lots of Unionist identities but I don't think there's an ideology and am not sure why you'd think there should be.

and in lieu of the fact that they no longer (if ever) fit with the modern multicultural British identity,

Again total horseshit.

the only thing they have which identifies them as being different from the natives is their religion.

Who or what are 'the natives'? Is that a new version of 'building an Ireland of equals'?

Clinging to and emphasising that difference,

What you mean like somebody who thinks being here for 4 or 500 years doesn't qualify you as a 'native'?

even though most of them will never have darkened the door of a Church, gives them an identity.

You seem to be getting confused. Just because you think of everything in sectarian terms, don't trry and put us all in the same box.

Just listen to them on the radio, when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century.

I presume this is either a pisstake or you've never actually listened to any of the shite that passes for broadcasting on Radio 6 counties (or even read any of the posts on this board).

The only problem is that when you continually emphasise and promote the differences between groups of people in order to separate yourself, you will get people like the Stoneyford mob who actually believe they are great patriots and defenders of their community by behaving in such a way as they are maintain the identity by keeping the other religion out.

The only problem when you continually emphasise and promote difference is you end up with nobs who think that bombing and slaughtering their fellow men makes them great patriots and defenders of their community.

Now don't get me wrong as there are many such idiots on the other side of the community but as our identity is not based on difference, thankfully the problem is not nearly so bad.

Truely pathetic.

The only thing is that there are so many people on the unionist side riding the gravy train of bigotry that it's hard to see when it will end.

Fcuk me a SF supporter talking about gravy trains (as per my previous post, you couldn't make it up).

[SammyG]

Sorry Sammy, is there something in my post you would like to challenge or refute?

Sorry I didn't have time earlier, full response now filed, enjoy.

[Fishbat]

Sorry Sammy, is there something in my post you would like to challenge or refute?

Sorry I didn't have time earlier, full response now filed, enjoy.

SammyG - Whether you like it or not Unionism IS built on sectarianism and bigotry - if you believe it is not - then tell us what are the founding stones of Unionism? equality?, freedom of speech and religion for all?

Unionism MUST remain steeped in sectarianism and bigotry against all things Irish - or else it dies, will the attitudes ever change?

its well past the time for the change in attitude - time Unionists stood up and said enough of the hatred within their own community - tell the bollox in the pub slabberin about fenians to grow up, or walk out - quit going to bars where this shit is peddled - you want to get rid of it from football games? stop going until these hoors are refused entry, take the money elsewhere and then something will be done - talking about how you don't agree with the C18 chants won't work - do something about it - don't laugh things off when in company and the jokes and bitterness start flying (i'm not saying you do)

Same goes for republican chants and songs in bars and wherever, that isn't Irish culture - let it go - nothing worse than 16 yr olds slabbering or singing and "up the Ra" chants - complete and utter disgrace

[Donagh]

Ach Sammy don't be getting angry, a considered and reasoned rebuttal would have done. We've had this debate before and it's still my contention that unionism is defined by what it opposes not by putting forward principles that it supports. Republicanism, no matter how much it has been disgraced by the mistakes and blood of the troubles is still underpinned by the promotion of the principles of freedom, equality and importantly, freedom of consciousness within a secular state.

As for my comment on the 'gravy train of bigotry', what I'm trying to get at is that, it's in the interests of Irish republicans to break down barriers within our community, even if that is only to further the aim of national self determination. Whereas it's in the interests of unionist politicians and leaders to keep the sore of sectarian division running raw as the fear of the other side getting a foot up is what keeps them in their £60k a year jobs.

I agree with everything you say there as well Fishbat.

[Chrisowc]

As for my comment on the 'gravy train of bigotry', what I'm trying to get at is that, it's in the interests of Irish republicans to break down barriers within our community, even if that is only to further the aim of national self determination. Whereas it's in the interests of unionist politicians and leaders to keep the sore of sectarian division running raw as the fear of the other side getting a foot up is what keeps them in their £60k a year jobs.

Look in the mirror Donagh,  It might not be pretty, but look in the mirror.

[SammyG]

Ach Sammy don't be getting angry, a considered and reasoned rebuttal would have done.

Not angry at all, I'd say pity was the main emotion. It's quite sad that an obviously reasonably clever and switched on bloke, can be so bound up with hatred that he can't see the wood for the trees.

We've had this debate before and it's still my contention that unionism is defined by what it opposes not by putting forward principles that it supports. Republicanism, no matter how much it has been disgraced by the mistakes and blood of the troubles is still underpinned by the promotion of the principles of freedom, equality and importantly, freedom of consciousness within a secular state.

Freedom and equality for all (as long as you're a Republican). As George Orwell (nearly) said 'all animals are equal but some Sinners are more equal than others'.

As for my comment on the 'gravy train of bigotry', what I'm trying to get at is that, it's in the interests of Irish republicans to break down barriers within our community, even if that is only to further the aim of national self determination. Whereas it's in the interests of unionist politicians and leaders to keep the sore of sectarian division running raw as the fear of the other side getting a foot up is what keeps them in their £60k a year jobs.

As I've already said I presume this is a pisstake. As you support a party that abandoned every principle it had ever held, in order to get it's nose in the trough, I'm not sure you should be accusing people of jumping on gravy trains.

[SammyG]

SammyG - Whether you like it or not Unionism IS built on sectarianism and bigotry - if you believe it is not - then tell us what are the founding stones of Unionism? equality?, freedom of speech and religion for all?

Unionism MUST remain steeped in sectarianism and bigotry against all things Irish - or else it dies, will the attitudes ever change?

As usual you miss the point that Unionists are IRISH, how can we be bigotted against 'all things Irish', that would mean we were bigotted against ourselves.

its well past the time for the change in attitude - time Unionists stood up and said enough of the hatred within their own community

I have never said anything else and have worked with youth groups etc to try and move people away from paramilitary shite.

- tell the bollox in the pub slabberin about fenians to grow up, or walk out - quit going to bars where this shit is peddled - you want to get rid of it from football games? stop going until these hoors are refused entry, take the money elsewhere and then something will be done

I have no idea what that means, I wouldn't dream of drinking in a pub where that sort of shite was going on and if I did hear it I'd try and do something about it.

- talking about how you don't agree with the C18 chants won't work - do something about it - don't laugh things off when in company and the jokes and bitterness start flying (i'm not saying you do)

I have spent most of my adult life fighting against C18/NF/British Movement (sometimes physically) so I don't think I'll be taking any lessons, thanks all the same.

Same goes for republican chants and songs in bars and wherever, that isn't Irish culture - let it go - nothing worse than 16 yr olds slabbering or singing and "up the Ra" chants - complete and utter disgrace

Indeed but sure bigottry is a one way street and singing Up the RA isn't bigottry.

[Donagh]

Look in the mirror Donagh,  It might not be pretty, but look in the mirror.

Sorry Chris, that's a bit cryptic for me. Perhaps if you have something to say you could be a little clearer?

[Donagh]

Sammy as you have yet to challenge any of my assertions about unionism, I take it you agree?

[SammyG]

Sammy as you have yet to challenge any of my assertions about unionism, I take it you agree?

See my previous 3 or 4 posts.

[Donagh]

See my previous post.

[SammyG]

See my previous post.

Sorry you've lost me. I answered your post twice (once with a one-liner and once with a bit of detail), you replied and I answered your reply, what did I miss?

[Donagh]

See my previous post.

Sorry you've lost me. I answered your post twice (once with a one-liner and once with a bit of detail), you replied and I answered your reply, what did I miss?

You haven't addressed any of my points.

[SammyG]

See my previous post.

Sorry you've lost me. I answered your post twice (once with a one-liner and once with a bit of detail), you replied and I answered your reply, what did I miss?

You haven't addressed any of my points.

Which points have I missed? I thought I'd addressed all of them but if you can tell me what, you think, I missed, I'll have another go.