The IRA does everything...

[pintsofguinness]

South Armagh has developed a problem with thugs.  There's the thugs like Quinn and his cronnies and then there's the thugs like those who killed him.  Some people call these thugs "the IRA" but my first question would be to them is what is the IRA?  There is no IRA left, those that murdered Quinn are the ceasefire soldiers, the thugs who like people to think they're the IRA and who use the IRA's name to intimidate and carry out their criminal activities.  Sinn Fein will do nothing about them. 

Jim McAllister is a man, until today, I would have had great respect for.  Take it from me, if you said privately to Jim McAllister that the people that killed Quinn were the IRA he'd go through you, but they're the IRA when it suits Jim's agenda (or 5times agenda). 

Let them all kill each other is what I say.

btw, Paul Quinn and his gang arrived to a man's house less than two weeks ago and  badly beat him in front of his wife - The man's crime crime? He intervened when a female member of the Quinn's family was abusing another totally innocent female. 

[Donagh]

So then, Donagh, there are two possible Groups who might be able to muster 15 people in South Armagh to engage in activity of this type.

The first is that to which you allude above ("known" to Jim McAllister, as it were). This Group, engaged in out-and-out criminality, with access to guns etc, declines just to send a couple of people out to ambush him some evening, put a bullet through his brain, then dump him over the border. Instead, they engage in an elaborate plan, involving 15 people or more and taking hours to commit, with all the forensics etc which that produces, plus the increased risk of interception by the police (however slim), so as to hammer him to death with iron bars. It is possible, I suppose.

Meanwhile, you discount completely the possibility of the other "Group" of likely suspects thereabouts having committed this outrage, even though they have publicly foresworn the use of guns on people with whom they disagree. Or that prominent members of this "Group" were said to have fallen out with the victim prior to his having been murdered. Or that the victim's family believe this "Group" did it. I guess that is just possible, too...

Will you be starting a "Justice for Paul Quinn" Website anytime soon, by any chance? Or will we have to wait 25 years for that?

I didn't discount anything, I said it was my inclination to think it was related to dissident activity. Now what is your point on this thread? Are you also claiming the IRA killed this man? If so, what do you base it on?

[Puckoon]

I know a man in North Belfast and he was having bother with anti-social behaviour (said man was a former combatant and well connected) he went to West Belfast to get "help" and was informed that this cannot be done anymore. Was told to use the police, now said man took matters into his own hands and "resolved" the situation himself, this could have been spun to suit any agenda, given his history.
It suits people to blame the IRA on this occasion, for many reasons.
Instead of casting wild accusations everyone should be doing their utmost to hunt down and catch the perpetrators of this heinous crime !!

Think this is the crux of this debate. Just because like minded people (with republican allegiances) carried this out (allegedly) doesn't mean it would have been sanctioned at any level within republican hierarchies. If thats the case they are just criminals not republican criminals. If the republican leadership are calling for anyone with information to give it to the police then what more can they do? Am I missing something?

Could the republican leadership give the police the information themselves? These calls for co-operation appear to be all smokescreens. How naive do the rest of the country need to be to believe that by now Gerry adams hasnt heard the names of the people involved? No one is saying it is sanctioned (at least not on an operational level) but there is co-operation before and after the crime.

Pints, thats terrible that he was such a thug. Does it make his demise right though?

[heganboy]

"Justice for Paul Quinn" Website anytime soon, by any chance? Or will we have to wait 25 years for that?

thats quite funny.

On a more serious note, I was back home last week and noticed no police about, I was drinking in 2 pubs in particular when I was home (one on each side of the house as we so gently put it) and the consensus was the same, the PSNI don't seem interested in petty crime, vandalising pensioners houses, fireworks being thrown at cars, theft, under age drinking and loitering in town centres, brawling outside pubs. There were complaints that there was a more peaceful town when either set of "the boys" could be called to put manners on wee shites. People who 5 years ago I would have bet didnt know that 999 was the number for the police were complaining about calling the police and no response being received. Similar to  case above where certain unnamed men were telling people that they couldn't do anything call the cops. Wouldn't even have the decency to call round to young fellas doors and let them know their "anti-social behaviour" was being monitored
Is this a general opinion or did I just wander into the wrong places?

Is the north stuck in the twilight zone? Do the PSNI know how to police the 6 counties when there is no armed conflict? Are community police boards the answer? Do the Police need more time?

[pintsofguinness]

Pints, thats terrible that he was such a thug. Does it make his demise right though?

No, I would much rather the police would deal with his type but they wont.

[inisceithleann]

There seems to be no doubt that republicans were involved, but it seems unlikely that the IRA ordered this attack. The Sinn Féin leadership clearly will know who carried out this brutal murder. Should they give the names of those involved if they argue that they are criminals? Of course they should in theory considering their stance that the IRA are no longer funtioning, but this would have devastating consequnces from within republican communities and Sinn Féin would risk losing considerable support. My fear is that unless Sinn Féin actively help the Garda on this the Assembly will be brought down by the DUP yet again. Sure it won't take much listening to Paisley Óg today.

[his holiness nb]

This is an interesting debate, and leads to a very valid question.
Every time a bousy who was once in the IRA before decomissioning perpretrates a criminal act, will we jump to say it was an IRA act (as if sanctioned from above) or is it just some scumbags who have turned to gangs to fill the void created by the decomissioning?

I dont know the facts of this case enough to say which this is, but do get the feeling that every act from an ex IRA men will be labelled and IRA act.
Either way, a sickening and cowardly killing.

[Mentalman]

Jim McAllister is a man, until today, I would have had great respect for.  Take it from me, if you said privately to Jim McAllister that the people that killed Quinn were the IRA he'd go through you, but they're the IRA when it suits Jim's agenda (or 5times agenda). 

Serious question Pints, as I don't have a clue, what is Jim's agenda?

[Evil Genius]

I didn't discount anything, I said it was my inclination to think it was related to dissident activity. Now what is your point on this thread? Are you also claiming the IRA killed this man? If so, what do you base it on?

The reason I don't believe it was "dissidents" [sic] was because it was needlessly elaborate, and didn't involve guns.

The reason I believe it was the Provies was precisely because it was so elaborate i.e. to avoid involving the very guns which the Provos don't have. And would no longer use if they did have. Which they don't, since Gerry Adams tells us so.

Plus I don't see why the family would want to protect Dissidents who had killed their son, if they believed it was Dissidents who did it. Whereas, if they believed it was the Provos did it, they might be likely to say it was them. Oh yes, I forgot. They are saying it was the Provos...

[Donagh]

I didn't discount anything, I said it was my inclination to think it was related to dissident activity. Now what is your point on this thread? Are you also claiming the IRA killed this man? If so, what do you base it on?

The reason I don't believe it was "dissidents" [sic] was because it was needlessly elaborate, and didn't involve guns.

The reason I believe it was the Provies was precisely because it was so elaborate i.e. to avoid involving the very guns which the Provos don't have. And would no longer use if they did have. Which they don't, since Gerry Adams tells us so.

Plus I don't see why the family would want to protect Dissidents who had killed their son, if they believed it was Dissidents who did it. Whereas, if they believed it was the Provos did it, they might be likely to say it was them. Oh yes, I forgot. They are saying it was the Provos...

What a load of bollox - maybe you missed the incident in north Belfast recently when they took the head of some fella with a spade? You've obviously no understanding into the nationalist community or the tensions within it and in this case any comment from you is about as useful or as insightful as that from Jim Allister who's obviously following another agenda.

[Mentalman]

Pints, thats terrible that he was such a thug. Does it make his demise right though?

No, I would much rather the police would deal with his type but they wont.

So if the cops don't do their job, are death's like this an acceptable risk of rough justice? And what has this lad done that would deserve such rough justice that it would put his life at risk? Giving someone a slap is one thing, and I'm not condoneing even that, but anywhere from 8 to 15 men attacking a guy with iron bars? I've heard through a friend that this lad was no angel, I don't think even his family would try to say that from what I hear, but bludgeoned to death? If anyone thinks that's an acceptable risk of vigilante "jusitce" then we are well and truely through the looking glass.

[pintsofguinness]

Jim McAllister is a man, until today, I would have had great respect for.  Take it from me, if you said privately to Jim McAllister that the people that killed Quinn were the IRA he'd go through you, but they're the IRA when it suits Jim's agenda (or 5times agenda). 

Serious question Pints, as I don't have a clue, what is Jim's agenda?

Jim would love to see the assembly come down, he's fiercely anti agreement.

So if the cops don't do their job, are death's like this an acceptable risk of rough justice? And what has this lad done that would deserve such rough justice that it would put his life at risk? Giving someone a slap is one thing, and I'm not condoneing even that, but anywhere from 8 to 15 men attacking a guy with iron bars? I've heard through a friend that this lad was no angel, I don't think even his family would try to say that from what I hear, but bludgeoned to death? If anyone thinks that's an acceptable risk of vigilante "jusitce" then we are well and truely through the looking glass.

I said it wasn't right and I didn't say death was acceptable, those who beat him are just as bad as him.  The local community has been tortured with his type since the IRA ceasefire and I can't pretend to have sympathy.

[Mentalman]

Jim McAllister is a man, until today, I would have had great respect for.  Take it from me, if you said privately to Jim McAllister that the people that killed Quinn were the IRA he'd go through you, but they're the IRA when it suits Jim's agenda (or 5times agenda). 

Serious question Pints, as I don't have a clue, what is Jim's agenda?

Jim would love to see the assembly come down, he's fiercely anti agreement.

So he's just been as cynical as anyone taking advantage of the death in other words? Ah, I'm with you. Man a complex web. Seems like no-one comes out of this with any credit. I'd have to feel sorry for the lads family.

As to the second part, that wasn't just directed at you Pints, it just seems people's attitude is kind of shrug the shoulders or whatever. I was just wondering where that attitude comes from. Thanks for the honest answer.

[Evil Genius]

This is an interesting debate, and leads to a very valid question.
Every time a bousy who was once in the IRA before decomissioning perpretrates a criminal act, will we jump to say it was an IRA act (as if sanctioned from above) or is it just some scumbags who have turned to gangs to fill the void created by the decomissioning?

I dont know the facts of this case enough to say which this is, but do get the feeling that every act from an ex IRA men will be labelled and IRA act.
Either way, a sickening and cowardly killing.

It might be a fair enough question, HH, were it not for two factors. First, this is not simply the case of "a bousy"(?) who was once inthe IRA doing something wrong. This was (reportedly) at least 10 people, maybe 15, who took their time in beating a young man to death with iron bars. Then add in the possibility that additional people might also have been involved on the periphery - arranging the kidnap and luring him to the barn, acting as lookout, cleaning up the scene of the crime, dumping the body etc.

Which leads to the second factor. No gang of that size can hope to carry out an act of that nature in a place like South Armagh without the names of at least some of those involved getting out. And if there is a connection linking all these conspirators - e.g. drugs, family feud, terrorism etc - that will surely out, too. Which suggests that this gang feels pretty much immune to any sort of sanction from the only two Groups which might possibly mete it out. The first such Group is the Police, but for the gang's immunity to hold, they need to be pretty sure no-one will give information. And which gang in S.Armagh is likely to be most "disciplined" in keeping such information away from the Police or Courts? Hmmm...
Of course, the second such Group which might be in a position to administer some form of sanction is the Provos. Hmmmm...  Does anyone else see some sort of connection, here? Or am I just some sort of naive, conspiracy theorist?

In any case, even if this were nothing to do with the Provos, it is incumbent upon their "good name" as protectors of the Community that anti-social criminals and Dissidents etc not be allowed to go around terrorising the community, even blaming it on them etc?

Therefore, now that the Provos no longer admit to carrying out "policing" themselves, but accept that the PSNI must deal with such crimes, then one might expect former Provos to heed Gerry Adams's public call to bring the perpetrators to justice. If, as I suspect strongly enough to put my mortgage on it, no information of any value should leak to the Police, are we to assume that this must be because nobody amongst the entire community of fromer Provos in S. Armagh actually knows anything about it?
Hmmmm...

Anyhow, must dash now, since I've just seen a dog in the street and if I'm quick I might just catch him to ask whether he knows anything...    

[pintsofguinness]

EG I got half way through your post, stop talking about something you know nothing about.

Have you ever even been to south armagh?