Author Topic: Kerry Championship system  (Read 6558 times)

tiempo

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 648
    • View Profile
Kerry Championship system
« on: March 19, 2019, 09:31:06 AM »
Just picking up from the locked TG4 thread discussion. A couple of points to add to:

1. Its a surprise Kerry clubs haven't wont the Intermediate and Junior All-Irelands more often given their gerrymandering of the provincial championships - what you'll notice is that in addition to the disproportionate number of titles they have won at these grades they have actually narrowly lost quite a number of finals, they are butchering the Munster intermediate and junior club scene not to mention the latter stages of the All-Ireland.

2. Regarding the novice grade in Kerry - this shouldn't exist. Senior, Intermediate and Junior thats the playing field. They are bookending the championship structure with a top light Senior Championship (only 8 teams for a county with 70+ clubs) and a makey uppey grade at the bottom therefore shoehorning the vast majority into Intermediate and Junior hence the outcomes of disproportionately strong teams coming out of those competitions. When I say disproportionate I mean in respect to a 70+ club county - the competition structure isn't representative of the size of the county.

Rossfan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14944
  • Ballaghaderreen CO ROSCOMMON
    • View Profile
    • Roscommon County Board official website
Re: Kerry Championship system
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2019, 09:36:05 AM »
How about we abolish Kerry !!!
1 BIG CUP and 1 Cupeen so far....

Redhand Santa

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1672
    • View Profile
Re: Kerry Championship system
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2019, 09:37:17 AM »
Kerry should be allowed to organise their championship structures whatever way they want and whatever they think works best for their clubs.

However, something needs to be done about who is allowed to represent them in the junior and intermediate championships. The way they do it leads to an unfair advantage. It would be fairer if their senior winners represented them at senior, their junior winners represented them at intermediate and their novice champions (or whatever the second junior championship is called) represent them at junior level.

If you looked at the breakdown of the clubs in the county in terms of numbers this would be a much more similar and fairer reflection to what is done in other counties.

Owenmoresider

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2249
    • View Profile
Re: Kerry Championship system
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2019, 10:46:28 AM »
The odd thing about the Munster club is that in Cork you have four grades - senior, premier intermediate, intermediate and junior. The intermediate champions don't actually compete in Munster as the premier intermediate winners go forward and the junior champions naturally enter the Munster junior club. Therefore a Munster junior final such as this year between the Kerry and Cork champs is effectively a meeting of a team that could easily be a strong contender in Kerry's second tier against the winners of Cork's fourth tier.

omagh_gael

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4652
  • '03, '05 + '08...not bad!
    • View Profile
Re: Kerry Championship system
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2019, 12:36:20 PM »
So would a club like Kilcummin have many players playing in a divisional side in the senior championship? How does that work?

I'd imagine Kevin McCarthy would have been playing in a divisional side? Could a player play in both the senior and intermediate/junior championships in the same year?

Would a starred system work on the AI stage? For example, if you played in a divisional side in the senior championship you couldn't play in the intermediate/junior provincial or AI stage with their club?

Could possibly ruin the divisional approach as I'd imagine most players wouldn't want to rule themselves out of their own clubs potential AI run.

Rossfan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 14944
  • Ballaghaderreen CO ROSCOMMON
    • View Profile
    • Roscommon County Board official website
Re: Kerry Championship system
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2019, 02:53:22 PM »
Cork let Divisional and College teams play in their SFC and SHC too.
1 BIG CUP and 1 Cupeen so far....

blanketattack

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1134
    • View Profile
Re: Kerry Championship system
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2019, 09:44:48 AM »
Just picking up from the locked TG4 thread discussion. A couple of points to add to:

1. Its a surprise Kerry clubs haven't wont the Intermediate and Junior All-Irelands more often given their gerrymandering of the provincial championships - what you'll notice is that in addition to the disproportionate number of titles they have won at these grades they have actually narrowly lost quite a number of finals, they are butchering the Munster intermediate and junior club scene not to mention the latter stages of the All-Ireland.

2. Regarding the novice grade in Kerry - this shouldn't exist. Senior, Intermediate and Junior thats the playing field. They are bookending the championship structure with a top light Senior Championship (only 8 teams for a county with 70+ clubs) and a makey uppey grade at the bottom therefore shoehorning the vast majority into Intermediate and Junior hence the outcomes of disproportionately strong teams coming out of those competitions. When I say disproportionate I mean in respect to a 70+ club county - the competition structure isn't representative of the size of the county.

There's hardly gerrymandering going on in Kerry for the purpose of winning the junior and intermediate All-Irelands - this system was in place in Kerry for 50 years before there was ever junior or intermediate All-Ireland championships. Using a divisional system means they can't have 16 Senior clubs like might be expected as that would make the divisional sides too weak to have any chance of competing with the club sides.

Saying the Novice c'ship shouldn't exist is a very ignorant statement, this a very important competition for the tiny communities in Kerry, a lot of whom would get trashed if they were forced to play at Junior grade which would see GAA clubs in these tiny communities dwindle.
Lots of counties have this 4th tier Novice or Junior B grade, and there's a provincial and All-Ireland Championship for Novice/Junior B in hurling and football.

oakleaflad

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1015
    • View Profile
Re: Kerry Championship system
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2019, 10:03:07 AM »
Just picking up from the locked TG4 thread discussion. A couple of points to add to:

1. Its a surprise Kerry clubs haven't wont the Intermediate and Junior All-Irelands more often given their gerrymandering of the provincial championships - what you'll notice is that in addition to the disproportionate number of titles they have won at these grades they have actually narrowly lost quite a number of finals, they are butchering the Munster intermediate and junior club scene not to mention the latter stages of the All-Ireland.

2. Regarding the novice grade in Kerry - this shouldn't exist. Senior, Intermediate and Junior thats the playing field. They are bookending the championship structure with a top light Senior Championship (only 8 teams for a county with 70+ clubs) and a makey uppey grade at the bottom therefore shoehorning the vast majority into Intermediate and Junior hence the outcomes of disproportionately strong teams coming out of those competitions. When I say disproportionate I mean in respect to a 70+ club county - the competition structure isn't representative of the size of the county.

There's hardly gerrymandering going on in Kerry for the purpose of winning the junior and intermediate All-Irelands - this system was in place in Kerry for 50 years before there was ever junior or intermediate All-Ireland championships. Using a divisional system means they can't have 16 Senior clubs like might be expected as that would make the divisional sides too weak to have any chance of competing with the club sides.

Saying the Novice c'ship shouldn't exist is a very ignorant statement, this a very important competition for the tiny communities in Kerry, a lot of whom would get trashed if they were forced to play at Junior grade which would see GAA clubs in these tiny communities dwindle.
Lots of counties have this 4th tier Novice or Junior B grade, and there's a provincial and All-Ireland Championship for Novice/Junior B in hurling and football.
I've genuinely never heard of it. How many counties compete at this level?

Maiden1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 755
    • View Profile
Re: Kerry Championship system
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2019, 10:16:57 AM »
So would a club like Kilcummin have many players playing in a divisional side in the senior championship? How does that work?

I'd imagine Kevin McCarthy would have been playing in a divisional side? Could a player play in both the senior and intermediate/junior championships in the same year?

Would a starred system work on the AI stage? For example, if you played in a divisional side in the senior championship you couldn't play in the intermediate/junior provincial or AI stage with their club?

Could possibly ruin the divisional approach as I'd imagine most players wouldn't want to rule themselves out of their own clubs potential AI run.

A player will play for a divisional side and for their own club.  If a divisional side wins the Kerry senior championship the last non divisional side left in the championship will represent Kerry in the All Ireland series.

Kerry have played in 58 All Ireland finals since 1903 (i.e. 1 every 2 years) I believe the way the championships are set up in Kerry has contributed to this.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2019, 10:28:31 AM by Maiden1 »
If you want something, you have to work for it. Now quiet they're about to announce the lottery no's

imtommygunn

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8989
    • View Profile
Re: Kerry Championship system
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2019, 10:17:46 AM »
Re: AI / Provincial novice / junior B..

Ballymena hurlers went down south to compete in this. I am not sure there is an ulster championship (this was hurling but I'm not familiar with any football version and don't think there is one) so they were competing in , I think, Leinster.

(Antrim has a junior B hurling championship which I presume they won.)

blanketattack

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1134
    • View Profile
Re: Kerry Championship system
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2019, 12:02:36 PM »
So would a club like Kilcummin have many players playing in a divisional side in the senior championship? How does that work?

I'd imagine Kevin McCarthy would have been playing in a divisional side? Could a player play in both the senior and intermediate/junior championships in the same year?

Would a starred system work on the AI stage? For example, if you played in a divisional side in the senior championship you couldn't play in the intermediate/junior provincial or AI stage with their club?

Could possibly ruin the divisional approach as I'd imagine most players wouldn't want to rule themselves out of their own clubs potential AI run.

A player will play for a divisional side and for their own club.  If a divisional side wins the Kerry senior championship the last non divisional side left in the championship will represent Kerry in the All Ireland series.

Kerry have played in 58 All Ireland finals since 1903 (i.e. 1 every 2 years) I believe the way the championships are set up in Kerry has contributed to this.

That's not the system anymore, possibly because of two divisional sides meeting in the final, but for the last 10 years or so, the winner of the club championship (i.e. a different competition to the county championship) will represent Kerry if a diivisonal side wins the County C'ship.
Personally I think they should let the runners up of the County C'ship represent Kerry and only use the club championship in the rare case of two divisional sides in the final.
The Kerry county board are really trying to push the club championship as a meaningful competition even though most clubs would rank it 4th after County C'ship, Divisonal C'ship and County League.
They've even been using the club championship to determine relegation of club teams from the County C'ship.

blanketattack

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1134
    • View Profile
Re: Kerry Championship system
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2019, 12:17:34 PM »
Just picking up from the locked TG4 thread discussion. A couple of points to add to:

1. Its a surprise Kerry clubs haven't wont the Intermediate and Junior All-Irelands more often given their gerrymandering of the provincial championships - what you'll notice is that in addition to the disproportionate number of titles they have won at these grades they have actually narrowly lost quite a number of finals, they are butchering the Munster intermediate and junior club scene not to mention the latter stages of the All-Ireland.

2. Regarding the novice grade in Kerry - this shouldn't exist. Senior, Intermediate and Junior thats the playing field. They are bookending the championship structure with a top light Senior Championship (only 8 teams for a county with 70+ clubs) and a makey uppey grade at the bottom therefore shoehorning the vast majority into Intermediate and Junior hence the outcomes of disproportionately strong teams coming out of those competitions. When I say disproportionate I mean in respect to a 70+ club county - the competition structure isn't representative of the size of the county.

There's hardly gerrymandering going on in Kerry for the purpose of winning the junior and intermediate All-Irelands - this system was in place in Kerry for 50 years before there was ever junior or intermediate All-Ireland championships. Using a divisional system means they can't have 16 Senior clubs like might be expected as that would make the divisional sides too weak to have any chance of competing with the club sides.

Saying the Novice c'ship shouldn't exist is a very ignorant statement, this a very important competition for the tiny communities in Kerry, a lot of whom would get trashed if they were forced to play at Junior grade which would see GAA clubs in these tiny communities dwindle.
Lots of counties have this 4th tier Novice or Junior B grade, and there's a provincial and All-Ireland Championship for Novice/Junior B in hurling and football.
I've genuinely never heard of it. How many counties compete at this level?

Actually the Junior B Football only goes to Munster level AFAIK, the hurling goes to All-Ireland level. It's run by Knockaderry and Kileedy in Limerick. It's sanctioned by Croke Park and the Munster council though.

The infamous Ballyragget club of Kilkenny were in it a few years. I believe they only hired belly dancers to celebrate their victory then!

Ball Hopper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1037
    • View Profile
Re: Kerry Championship system
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2019, 04:52:24 PM »
Fun facts for 2019 Club Championship in Kerry...additions made to post from locked thread

Na Gaeil club in Tralee are junior, but are in Div 1 of the Kerry County League...both midfielders that started v Roscommon in the league game are from Na Gaeil, Jack Barry and Diarmuid O'Connor;

Senior club Kenmare Shamrocks are in Div 2 and will find it hard to get promoted without county men Sean O'Shea and Stephen O'Brien (one win and one loss in league so far, beat Annascaul and lost to All-Ireland Junior champs Beaufort;

4 intermediate clubs in Div 1 - St. Mary's Cahersiveen, Templenoe, An Ghaeltacht and Spa;

2 intermediate clubs in Div 4 -  Laune Rangers (All-Ireland Senior Club winners 1996) and Waterville

Ball Hopper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1037
    • View Profile
Re: Kerry Championship system
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2019, 05:34:46 PM »
So would a club like Kilcummin have many players playing in a divisional side in the senior championship? How does that work?

I'd imagine Kevin McCarthy would have been playing in a divisional side? Could a player play in both the senior and intermediate/junior championships in the same year?

Would a starred system work on the AI stage? For example, if you played in a divisional side in the senior championship you couldn't play in the intermediate/junior provincial or AI stage with their club?

Could possibly ruin the divisional approach as I'd imagine most players wouldn't want to rule themselves out of their own clubs potential AI run.

Kilcummin had about 5 starters on the East Kerry team in 2018.  Brendan Kealy in goals and Kevin MCarthy at wing-forward being the best known.  The also had the two midfielders and a corner back in the semi-final drawn game with Dingle - I don't have the replay line out.

East Kerry will be a lot weaker in 2019.  An Ghaeltacht drop from senior to intermediate in 2019, so West Kerry divisional side will be much stronger.  In 2017, when An Ghaeltacht were last intermediate, they provided something like 13 of the starting 15 in West Kerry's last championship game.

magpie seanie

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 12253
    • View Profile
Re: Kerry Championship system
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2019, 10:15:14 AM »
The problem is not with Kerry. There's absolutely nothing to stop other counties having only 8 senior clubs if that's what suits their county. Personally I think winning intermediate and junior club All-Ireland's is well down the list of priorities and certainly not why Kerry's system is designed in this fashion. They use it to maximise the meaningful games each player gets. If you're good enough there's a higher level for you to progress to. If you're interested enough there's a level for you to start at and work at improving. If you're a casual player that's catered for too. It's brilliant.