All-Ireland Final, September 18th, 2016 - Dublin v Mayo

[Zulu]

Mayo are certainly better than Donegal and probably better than Kerry but Kerry have better forwards so tend to eke out the wins against a Mayo team that are as good as anyone 1-9 but you can't depend on their forwards to clip a few vital scores to edge tight games against opposition at the same level as themselves.

If Mayo's forwards have a good day against Dublin then they've a great chance if they don't then they will be beaten for sure.

Kerry always have good forwards, but this year - I'd struggle to think of them having more than 2 top class forwards on form?

True, but you can imagine the Gooch or O'Donoghue getting 1-3 or 0-4 from play having done little before. Not sure you can for most of the Mayo forwards. If Regan, Doherty and COC can find their shooting boots then Mayo can win. They need the usual suspects to perform, which I think will happen, and one or two players, ideally forwards, to have a MOM-type performance.

[From the Bunker]

Mayo are certainly better than Donegal and probably better than Kerry but Kerry have better forwards so tend to eke out the wins against a Mayo team that are as good as anyone 1-9 but you can't depend on their forwards to clip a few vital scores to edge tight games against opposition at the same level as themselves.

If Mayo's forwards have a good day against Dublin then they've a great chance if they don't then they will be beaten for sure.

Kerry always have good forwards, but this year - I'd struggle to think of them having more than 2 top class forwards on form?

True, but you can imagine the Gooch or O'Donoghue getting 1-3 or 0-4 from play having done little before. Not sure you can for most of the Mayo forwards. If Regan, Doherty and COC can find their shooting boots then Mayo can win. They need the usual suspects to perform, which I think will happen, and one or two players, ideally forwards, to have a MOM-type performance.

Not this year and we are talking of the present (not the future or the past)? And probably not from now on from The Gooch!

[Zulu]

Still wouldn't rule it for them. That's the point though, those guys have done it so it means you could see them do it again (whether they do or not is pure speculation). You can't say Regan, Doherty, Freeman or to a lesser degree COC have done it in the past in All Irelands for example. Probably going off on a bit of a tangent anyway as it doesn't matter whether the Gooch can do it on the big stage, the question is whether a few Mayo forwards can. If they do, then I think they match up pretty well in other areas against the Dubs.

[From the Bunker]

Still wouldn't rule it for them. That's the point though, those guys have done it so it means you could see them do it again (whether they do or not is pure speculation). You can't say Regan, Doherty, Freeman or to a lesser degree COC have done it in the past in All Irelands for example. Probably going off on a bit of a tangent anyway as it doesn't matter whether the Gooch can do it on the big stage, the question is whether a few Mayo forwards can. If they do, then I think they match up pretty well in other areas against the Dubs.

Yeah but Freeman and Regan won't be playing? Why pick them as examples? You gave Gooch and JOD as an example in present day! All poor examples!

[Zulu]

Not really, Regan could be playing and will see action and I mentioned Doherty and COC too. O'Loughlin or AOS haven't been prolific and DOC has struggled in the past two games with injury. Of (any) starting Mayo forward line I'd only expect Andy Moran and DOC to get 3 or more scores from play and even then that's a big ask for both. I couldn't see any other forward do it which is an issue. Of course someone might but they haven't the track record to prove it possible/likely, unlike the Kerry players I mentioned.

[From the Bunker]

Not really, Regan could be playing and will see action and I mentioned Doherty and COC too. O'Loughlin or AOS haven't been prolific and DOC has struggled in the past two games with injury. Of (any) starting Mayo forward line I'd only expect Andy Moran and DOC to get 3 or more scores from play and even then that's a big ask for both. I couldn't see any other forward do it which is an issue. Of course someone might but they haven't the track record to prove it possible/likely, unlike the Kerry players I mentioned.

Then why did you not mention Moran or DOC in you original post only, instead of possible Mayo subs? What is JOD and Gooches Scoring record in finals the last 5 years?

[Zulu]

Not sure what you're arguing anymore? Are you saying the Mayo forwards are proven big game scorers? I didn't mention Moran or DOC for the same reason I didn't use Geaney as the Kerry example. Those guys have been going well and I expect them to go well next Sunday but if Mayo are to win then players like Regan, Doherty, COC or AOS need to get more from play than they have been. Not sure what is unreasonable about that.

[From the Bunker]

Not sure what you're arguing anymore? Are you saying the Mayo forwards are proven big game scorers? I didn't mention Moran or DOC for the same reason I didn't use Geaney as the Kerry example. Those guys have been going well and I expect them to go well next Sunday but if Mayo are to win then players like Regan, Doherty, COC or AOS need to get more from play than they have been. Not sure what is unreasonable about that.

You picked players as an example for Mayo who more than likely won't be playing and expect them out of the blue to put a big game in from the bench. You named two Kerry forwards who have not done it in a long time as Marquee forwards, True they have done it in the past - But we are talking of the present. Then you proceed to talk about players that are on form (once quizzed). Why did you not mention these Mayo players and Kerry player (Geaney) the first time?

[seafoid]

Who came up with the phrase marquee forward? It always reminds me of Declan Nerney.

[Zulu]

For the reason I just gave you!! I said Mayo's big game players will perform (amongst them DOC and Andy M) and that Mayo 1-9 are as good as anybody but that some Mayo forwards would have to put in a scoring performance they haven't often shown previously for them to win. I didn't originally mention AOS or O'Loughlin as their game isn't about scoring primarily and they can play very well without doing that. It wold be a massive boost to Mayo's chances if AOS finished with 1-2 but he could be very influential without doing that. I mentioned Doherty and Regan as two players for example that could prove to be the difference if they had a 0-3 day from play.

Again I have no idea what you're arguing, perhaps you can clarify. I haven't picked players that are more than likely going to be on the bench bar possibly one and he will see action. I mentioned Doherty and COC in fact, one a regular starter the other at least the match of a Gooch or O'Donoughue in the Mayo set up so it's nonsense to say I wasn't comparing like with like. I could see Darren O'Sullivan get 1-1 in an All Ireland too for example.

You seem to be focusing on the minutiae of the point I'm making for some reason which is simply that a few Mayo forwards who haven't a proven track record of big game scoring need to have a good day. If you think the same applies to Kerry, fine, I don't. You're entitled to your opinion.

[macdanger2]

Agree with Zulu; amongst other things, one of our forwards would need to have a scorcher on Sunday or all of our forwards to have a good day for us to win

Midfield is where it will be won or lost though, we've struggled here all year and we need to change that on Sunday - probably need ~ 60% possession to win it.

[From the Bunker]

For the reason I just gave you!! I said Mayo's big game players will perform (amongst them DOC and Andy M) and that Mayo 1-9 are as good as anybody but that some Mayo forwards would have to put in a scoring performance they haven't often shown previously for them to win. I didn't originally mention AOS or O'Loughlin as their game isn't about scoring primarily and they can play very well without doing that. It wold be a massive boost to Mayo's chances if AOS finished with 1-2 but he could be very influential without doing that. I mentioned Doherty and Regan as two players for example that could prove to be the difference if they had a 0-3 day from play.

Again I have no idea what you're arguing, perhaps you can clarify. I haven't picked players that are more than likely going to be on the bench bar possibly one and he will see action. I mentioned Doherty and COC in fact, one a regular starter the other at least the match of a Gooch or O'Donoughue in the Mayo set up so it's nonsense to say I wasn't comparing like with like. I could see Darren O'Sullivan get 1-1 in an All Ireland too for example.

You seem to be focusing on the minutiae of the point I'm making for some reason which is simply that a few Mayo forwards who haven't a proven track record of big game scoring need to have a good day. If you think the same applies to Kerry, fine, I don't. You're entitled to your opinion.

How much action has Regan and Freeman seen in our 3 games in Croker? Why pick them to start now? You did not answer my question on your examples of the Gooch and JOD about what they had scored in finals the last 5 years? You have now gone down the line and picked Darran O'Sullivan to get 1-1 in a final? Two scores that's prolific? It's the usual lazy analysis. Why did you not pick DOC and Andy Moran and say they'll never score 4 points? Why?  Do you think O'Shea could score 1-1? Doherty could score 1-1? Higgins could score 1-1?

Dublin will win this, but please move away from the stereotypes!

Apologies for bringing Kerry into this, but bar Geaney, they are as thin as us if not thinner in the forward line (this year).

[Zulu]

It isn't a stereotype and you may not like hearing it but Doherty, Regan, Freeman, COC, O'Loughlin and AOS are not proven scorers from play at the top level and Higgins certainly isn't. They are all good players and the likes of O'Loughlin, Higgins and AOS don't need to be scoring forwards to play well as that isn't really their game. The point I'm making is that for Mayo to win a player or two who isn't a proven scorer needs to have a good day in front of the posts. I expect DOC and AM to get 3 or 4 points between them, COC to get 3 or 4 from frees and the half back line/back line to get 2 or 3 from play. That's around 11 points from the usual sources but I doubt that's enough. If one or two others could come up big it might be enough to get over the line as I think Mayo can limit Dublin more than any other team. You can agree or disagree with that if you like. I've made my point.

[From the Bunker]

It isn't a stereotype and you may not like hearing it but Doherty, Regan, Freeman, COC, O'Loughlin and AOS are not proven scorers from play at the top level and Higgins certainly isn't. They are all good players and the likes of O'Loughlin, Higgins and AOS don't need to be scoring forwards to play well as that isn't really their game. The point I'm making is that for Mayo to win a player or two who isn't a proven scorer needs to have a good day in front of the posts. I expect DOC and AM to get 3 or 4 points between them, COC to get 3 or 4 from frees and the half back line/back line to get 2 or 3 from play. That's around 11 points from the usual sources but I doubt that's enough. If one or two others could come up big it might be enough to get over the line as I think Mayo can limit Dublin more than any other team. You can agree or disagree with that if you like. I've made my point.

That is a fair analysis. The examples used earlier were poor!

[Ballaghman]

It isn't a stereotype and you may not like hearing it but Doherty, Regan, Freeman, COC, O'Loughlin and AOS are not proven scorers from play at the top level and Higgins certainly isn't. They are all good players and the likes of O'Loughlin, Higgins and AOS don't need to be scoring forwards to play well as that isn't really their game. The point I'm making is that for Mayo to win a player or two who isn't a proven scorer needs to have a good day in front of the posts. I expect DOC and AM to get 3 or 4 points between them, COC to get 3 or 4 from frees and the half back line/back line to get 2 or 3 from play. That's around 11 points from the usual sources but I doubt that's enough. If one or two others could come up big it might be enough to get over the line as I think Mayo can limit Dublin more than any other team. You can agree or disagree with that if you like. I've made my point.

Jees lads ye have gone round in so many circles my head is spinning! I get what you're saying though Zulu, some Mayo lads have to play like they haven't in recent memory and increase their scoring rate (I'm ignoring Kerry because they are irrelevant at this stage). I'd disagree with you on COC though, he has a strong record of scoring from play in big games. The 2 games against Kerry in 2014, the Dublin games last year when he wasn't supposed to be in great form for example. Even against your beloved lads, he scored 3 from play. I expect he'll have a big say on Sunday but he has to stay nearer to goal. For me, the biggest issue with Cillian is he has spent too much time away from goal. This is possibly because Andy is the focus of the attack now, but when he's closer to goal he's lethal.