Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[Chrisowc]

They will probably take soundings from some of its membershipa s to whether they would feel safe bring their kids there.
I guess that Ormeau's close proximity to lower ravenhill and donegall pass will make them perceive the area as less neutral and safe than others.
Its not purely about catholic / protestant demographics - its the nature of the area, past history, tribal / paramilitary markings, flags , territoriality, etc.
My own perception would be shaped by risk of attack/abuse while walking from the car to the stadium.
That being said, I wouldn't like to be stuck in a traffic jam on Tates Avenue, with my kids wearing Down tops trying to get back onto the M1.
My guess is that most GAA fans would feel safer in some nice middle class 100% unionist area, say Hillsborough, rather than the Ormeau, with lower ravenhill and donegal pass loyalist stronholds close by.

I really do hope you understand.

Just for your own information and a bit of research next time you are in the area of the maze take a wee spin past.  Especially in the summer months and see how 'neutral' this area is.  I would hazard a guess it isn't quite as middle class as Hillsborough either.

[snatter]

Personally, I have no desire to get into a "them and us" argument with GAA fans. Those that have expressed a preference seem to prefer the Maze (or not Belfast, at any rate), which is fair enough. But how would you feel if the Government told you that it was insisting on spending £100 million plus of all our taxes on a stadium in a location which 90% of you didn't want, on the basis that soccer preferred that, and you were powerless to object?

You'd be spitting mad, and quite right, too. And what makes it even more galling is that this whole scheme is politically, rather than sports-motivated, on the spurious notion that a combined stadium will somehow bring supporters of the three codes magically together.

I have asked this question several times, without ever receiving a persuasive answer:
How/Why would Ulster rugby fans going out to the Maze on a Friday evening in winter have cause to mix with soccer fans attending the following Wednesday evening, or either have opportunity to integrate with GAA fans attending a match on a Sunday afternoon in Summer, just because they happen to use the same stadium?

The new Wembley Stadium has already been used for a number of different purposes, but I doubt very much whether the George Michael fanclub has been inundated with applications to join from Ingurland soccer supporters!  Roll Eyes

And just to make sure that teh goalposts stay firmly planted - I categorically stated that

NO OTHER NEUTRAL SITE HAD BEEN APPROVED BY ALL THREE SPORTS' GOVERNING BODIES.

I'm afraid this idea that all three sports "approve" of the location is one of the most spurious points made by proponents of the Maze.

Evil,

it may be spurious, but it forms the core of current govt policy.

They're the ones who are giving this once-off funding to us to create a modern stadium.
They claim thats its ringfenced, and we have  to either use it or lose it.
(Note that the Maze site is an entirely different gift from thre UK treasury to assist NI plc post-agreement.)

Rightly or wrongly, the masters in whitehall have decried that they're fed up having to pay for the inefficiencies of a divided society.
They want the natives to start realising that they are actually inderdependent on one another, and move away from two self contained communities living alongside each other.
From now on, all major capital expenditure is expected to directly benefit both tribes.
This applies from stadia to schools and everything in between.

They want to increase cross community acceptance, tolerance, mutual understanding, interaction, have us all kissing (apart from em and Sammy), etc
The "Shared Spaces" bit is about creating places not marked out as belonging to one side or the other.

Whilst agreeing with you that there won't initially be much mixing of the tribes at the different sports' events, it is feasible that, in time, both tribes may start to attend what was previously regarded as predominantly the other sides sports.
The chances of this happening increase if the stadium is in a neutral location, equally accessible to both sides.
Looking at the thread on the State of Mind programme last night, Gwaytah's comments would add strength to this argument, when he voices his distaste with Casement:

How did the 2 lads get on at the parade?

.........  Probably better and gentler for the Linfield pair that they went to Clones, than to Casement Park given its location and unpleasant baggage.

The problem for you guys, is that if you don't sign up to a Shared Space solution, then if the govt stick to their guns, you won't get any money from them.

The govt is making it clear that for this to proceed, all bodies have to agree.
If not, no funding.

In all seriousness, and hopefully not being abusive, I repeat the two choices that you guys have:

Problem solved in two easy steps
1. start fundraising to build a new stadium of your own
2. play your games in scotland until the new stadium is built.

or if you like

Problem solved in two easy steps
1. don't fundraise to build a new stadium of your own
2. play your games in scotland until the new Maze stadium is built.

Anyway, here's the document that explains current Shared Spaces thinking:

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/community/sharedfuture/cru210305shared.pdf

[snatter]

They will probably take soundings from some of its membershipa s to whether they would feel safe bring their kids there.
I guess that Ormeau's close proximity to lower ravenhill and donegall pass will make them perceive the area as less neutral and safe than others.
Its not purely about catholic / protestant demographics - its the nature of the area, past history, tribal / paramilitary markings, flags , territoriality, etc.
My own perception would be shaped by risk of attack/abuse while walking from the car to the stadium.
That being said, I wouldn't like to be stuck in a traffic jam on Tates Avenue, with my kids wearing Down tops trying to get back onto the M1.
My guess is that most GAA fans would feel safer in some nice middle class 100% unionist area, say Hillsborough, rather than the Ormeau, with lower ravenhill and donegal pass loyalist stronholds close by.

I really do hope you understand.

Just for your own information and a bit of research next time you are in the area of the maze take a wee spin past.  Especially in the summer months and see how 'neutral' this area is.  I would hazard a guess it isn't quite as middle class as Hillsborough either.

Exactly. That's the whole point - the GAA seem to think we'll be able to drive in the Maze on a motorway and bypasss sectarian cesspits completely.
That's why they regard it as more neutral, ie an easy accessible space not claimed or marked out by one side or the other.

No need to drive up the Donegall Road through the Village, past Sandy Row, and down Donegall Pass to get to the stadium from the M1.

[SammyG]

snatter

Yet again you're mixing up press releases and policy. No one has any problem with the idea of a shared space, the issue is that the shared space at the Maze is economically unfeasible. Also it's interesting that you've talked several times about our unwillingness to sign up to a shared space, while totally ignoring the fact that it was the GAA that vetoed the genuine shared space oppurtunity, in favour of a white elephant, which they neither need nor want.

Stadium at the Maze
Chance of a casual non-GAAer going to watch a GAA match - nil
Chance of a GAA head attending a football match - maybe 5% but that would be optimistic
Chance of either a football or GAA fan going to a rugby match - nil because there won't be any rugby matches

Stadium in Belfast
All of the above become not just possible but probable. Husband drops the wife off for a bit of shopping and takes the kids to a match. Great day out for all concerned and a new convert to the 'other side'

If you can't see the difference in those two scenarios then I don't know how else to explain it.

[SammyG]

Exactly. That's the whole point - the GAA seem to think we'll be able to drive in the Maze on a motorway and bypasss sectarian cesspits completely.
That's why they regard it as more neutral, ie an easy accessible space not claimed or marked out by one side or the other.

No need to drive up the Donegall Road through the Village, past Sandy Row, and down Donegall Pass to get to the stadium from the M1.

How can you say exactly when you are disagreeing with the previous post?

[snatter]

snatter

Yet again you're mixing up press releases and policy. No one has any problem with the idea of a shared space, the issue is that the shared space at the Maze is economically unfeasible. Also it's interesting that you've talked several times about our unwillingness to sign up to a shared space, while totally ignoring the fact that it was the GAA that vetoed the genuine shared space oppurtunity, in favour of a white elephant, which they neither need nor want.

Stadium at the Maze
Chance of a casual non-GAAer going to watch a GAA match - nil
Chance of a GAA head attending a football match - maybe 5% but that would be optimistic
Chance of either a football or GAA fan going to a rugby match - nil because there won't be any rugby matches

Stadium in Belfast
All of the above become not just possible but probable. Husband drops the wife off for a bit of shopping and takes the kids to a match. Great day out for all concerned and a new convert to the 'other side'

If you can't see the difference in those two scenarios then I don't know how else to explain it.

So the GAA rejected

the genuine shared space oppurtunity

?
And who exactly decided that the Ormeau park was the

the genuine shared space oppurtunity

?

You, your OWC cronies, the IFA, the Newsletter, the Belfast Telegraph?

Do the GAA (to remind yoiu the sport with 10 times your attendance figures) and non OWC heads not have the right to make up their minds as what is and what isn't

a genuine shared space oppurtunity

?
Surely it is for the GAA to take soundings and itself decide on what is and isn't accepable or neutral.

[SammyG]

snatter

The GAA vetoed any city site (at that stage Ormeau wasn't even on the agenda), they chose to reject the shared space opportunites and instead do what was right for the GAA. I've no problem with that (I wish the IFA was as well lead as the GAA) but I do have a problem with your hypocritical claims that it's the NI football supporters who are anti shared space.

[snatter]

snatter

.
.
Stadium at the Maze
Chance of a casual non-GAAer going to watch a GAA match - nil
.
.

I'd love to know how you arrived at that decision.
Probably the same thought process that had you branding me as a shinner last night.
What was the basis for that? That I was a GAA fan on a GAA board. GAA = IRA @play, so QED I'm a shinner???
Mask slipping Sammy?

[snatter]

snatter

The GAA vetoed any city site (at that stage Ormeau wasn't even on the agenda), they chose to reject the shared space opportunites and instead do what was right for the GAA. I've no problem with that (I wish the IFA was as well lead as the GAA) but I do have a problem with your hypocritical claims that it's the NI football supporters who are anti shared space.

You still haven't ecplained to me who decides what is and what isn't a genuine shared space?
How can you say the GAA rejects a genuine shared space when in all probablilty the GAA doesn't regard it as such?

I REPEAT MY PREVIOUS QUESTION

quote author=snatter link=topic=2483.msg106490#msg106490 date=1182454060]

snatter

Yet again you're mixing up press releases and policy. No one has any problem with the idea of a shared space, the issue is that the shared space at the Maze is economically unfeasible. Also it's interesting that you've talked several times about our unwillingness to sign up to a shared space, while totally ignoring the fact that it was the GAA that vetoed the genuine shared space oppurtunity, in favour of a white elephant, which they neither need nor want.

Stadium at the Maze
Chance of a casual non-GAAer going to watch a GAA match - nil
Chance of a GAA head attending a football match - maybe 5% but that would be optimistic
Chance of either a football or GAA fan going to a rugby match - nil because there won't be any rugby matches

Stadium in Belfast
All of the above become not just possible but probable. Husband drops the wife off for a bit of shopping and takes the kids to a match. Great day out for all concerned and a new convert to the 'other side'

If you can't see the difference in those two scenarios then I don't know how else to explain it.

So the GAA rejected

the genuine shared space oppurtunity

?
And who exactly decided that the Ormeau park was the

the genuine shared space oppurtunity

?

You, your OWC cronies, the IFA, the Newsletter, the Belfast Telegraph?

Do the GAA (to remind yoiu the sport with 10 times your attendance figures) and non OWC heads not have the right to make up their minds as what is and what isn't

a genuine shared space oppurtunity

?
Surely it is for the GAA to take soundings and itself decide on what is and isn't accepable or neutral.
[/quote]

[SammyG]

snatter

.
.
Stadium at the Maze
Chance of a casual non-GAAer going to watch a GAA match - nil
.
.

I'd love to know how you arrived at that decision.

Simple logic and talking to mates. None of them would spend 3 to 4 hours in a traffic jam to go to a match that they might not even be interested in. If the stadium was accessible they'd take a chance and go along ad if they didn't like it then they'd have lost nothing.

Probably the same thought process that had you branding me as a shinner last night.
What was the basis for that? That I was a GAA fan on a GAA board. GAA = IRA @play, so QED I'm a shinner???

Try reading back through my post and you'll see that I never mentioned you being a Shinner. I said you were quoting from the shinner handbook.

Mask slipping Sammy?

No mask to slip, I am opposed to the Maze for practical and economic reasons not political ones.

[snatter]

snatter
.
.
No one has any problem with the idea of a shared space
.
.

Sammy,

you're having a laugh.
Last night you didn't even know wtf it was!!!

Do you seriously expect us to believe that you went off and read the policy, when by your admission you can't be arsed reading replies on this thread.

Last night's thread:

SammyG,

What lack of equality and what mutually beneficial 'Shared Spaces' strategy?

Says it all really.
You spout on here, fabricating to your heart's content, and quite plainly don't even know the basics of the Govt strategy on which the Maze proposal is based.
Breathtaking ignorace and arrogance in one.

Why don't you navigate away from here for a day or two and go do some much needed reading.

So other than being abusive are you actually going to answer the question?

Not being abusive - merely advising you to read up on the govt Shared Spaces strategy.
I could tell you what Shared Spaces is about, but that would be like telling the thick kid the answers to his homework.
It would be to his longer term benefit if he learnt it himself.

Btw, I'll give you a clue of where to start your reading.
Earlier in the thread, you were telling somebody to go away and actually read the UUJ Belfast Propaganda Report.
I suggest you act on your own advise and read page 16 of the same report.
Paragraph 2, section 1.1 gives an overview of what Shared Spaces is all about.

[SammyG]

snatter
.
.
No one has any problem with the idea of a shared space
.
.

Sammy,

you're having a laugh.
Last night you didn't even know wtf it was!!!

Do you seriously expect us to believe that you went off and read the policy, when by your admission you can't be arsed reading replies on this thread.

Are you taking the piss? Of course I know what it is, I've read the various documents inside out. What I said was the Maze is not part of that strategy, because the 3 sports will never use the stadium at the same time so there's no chance of any crossover.

[snatter]

snatter

.
.
Stadium at the Maze
Chance of a casual non-GAAer going to watch a GAA match - nil
.
.

I'd love to know how you arrived at that decision.

Simple logic and talking to mates. None of them would spend 3 to 4 hours in a traffic jam to go to a match that they might not even be interested in. If the stadium was accessible they'd take a chance and go along ad if they didn't like it then they'd have lost nothing.

Probably the same thought process that had you branding me as a shinner last night.
What was the basis for that? That I was a GAA fan on a GAA board. GAA = IRA @play, so QED I'm a shinner???

Try reading back through my post and you'll see that I never mentioned you being a Shinner. I said you were quoting from the shinner handbook.

Mask slipping Sammy?

No mask to slip, I am opposed to the Maze for practical and economic reasons not political ones.

Sammy,

FCUK, this is getting better.

Not only do

You / your OWC cronies / the IFA / the Newsletter / the Belfast Telegraph *

decide what is and isn't a genuine shared space on behalf of the GAA, now your mates are the appointed judges of what numbers of novice GAA fans go to their matches.

* Delete as appropriate when you have manged to fabricate an answer

At this rate you and your mates will be at the Ard Chomhairle running the GAA, and making all their decisions for them.

[SammyG]

Where have I said that I should decide on the neutrality or otherwise of any stadium? And where have I said that I should have any influence on GAA decisions? I think your imagination might be running away with you.

[snatter]

snatter
.
.
No one has any problem with the idea of a shared space
.
.

Sammy,

you're having a laugh.
Last night you didn't even know wtf it was!!!

Do you seriously expect us to believe that you went off and read the policy, when by your admission you can't be arsed reading replies on this thread.

Are you taking the piss? Of course I know what it is, I've read the various documents inside out. What I said was the Maze is not part of that strategy, because the 3 sports will never use the stadium at the same time so there's no chance of any crossover.

Sammy,

you are a lying fraud.
Last night at midnight you genuinely didn't have a clue what Shared Space meant, and now you've read all various documents inside out?
Despite spending half your day posting here and presumably on OWC. Fcuk you're some boy.

the Maze is not part of that strategy,

And now, fresh from running the GAA, you're now running the Govt?
All along they've said that the multi sport stadium must be developed in line with Shared Spaces.
This was repeated as recently as yesterday in the UUJ report * when its authors questioned whether a stadium should developed in line with the policy.

Now the junta previously known as Sammy has decried that all this is false as well.
Probably an illusion spun by those GAA Shinners. They're everywhere.

* another document you've probably never read