Long Kesh Park takes another step forward

[SammyG]

I genuinely believe that the long term futuer of GAA in N Ireland relies on getting unionists to accept it as no more threatening than irish dancing.
A high class shared stadium , accesible to many unionists in greater belfast area gives us a far better stage to sell our games to them than some desolate uncovered concrete bowl in Clones.

100% agree, so why have you been arguing for the Maze for the last year or more? 

as already stated in this thread, whilst not exactly passionate about the Maze, it does appear to be the only neutral location accepatable to all three sports' governing bodies.

I would definately categorise the Maze as being within the greater belfast area, its less than 10 miles away ffs.
Just fyi, in geographic parlance, the "greater" area arround a city describes an immediate catchment area, whose inhabitants are higly relient on the services of the main city.

I think that's called strecthing a definition to breaking point. The Maze isn't even in Greater Lisburn, nevermind Greater Belfast, it's a field in the middle of nowehere. It doesn't have any inhabitants or any catchment areas, it's a field.

[snatter]

OK, so you say the Maze is not within greater belfast, and I say it is..lets let the geographers out there decide.

Moving on...I'm still waiting with baited breath for details of this new last-minute neutral location, agreed by all 3 sports' governing bodies:

The core issue is that the anti-Maze brigade have failed to come up with any alternative neutral site acceptable to the governing bodies of all three sports.

In the absence of any alternative, then any publicly backed project within the Govt's Shared Spaces strategy has to proceed on the only agreed site available.

Even if your statement was ture (which it clearly isn't)

Oh I must have missed that announcement.
Where exactly is this new alternative neutral site, acceptable to all three governing bodies?

Have you got a google map link to it or something?
Or is it buried somewhere deep in your head, alongside your reality filter?

Where is it? tell me please please please

[SammyG]

OK, so you say the Maze is not within greater belfast, and I say it is..lets let the geographers out there decide.

Moving on...I'm still waiting with baited breath for details of this new last-minute neutral location, agreed by all 3 sports' governing bodies:

The core issue is that the anti-Maze brigade have failed to come up with any alternative neutral site acceptable to the governing bodies of all three sports.

In the absence of any alternative, then any publicly backed project within the Govt's Shared Spaces strategy has to proceed on the only agreed site available.

Even if your statement was ture (which it clearly isn't)

Oh I must have missed that announcement.
Where exactly is this new alternative neutral site, acceptable to all three governing bodies?

Have you got a google map link to it or something?
Or is it buried somewhere deep in your head, alongside your reality filter?

Where is it? tell me please please please

Ormeau Park is 100% neutral (with slightly Nationalist leanings but nothing to bother anybody), it is available to all sports, in fact the developers have said they'll welcome just about anything, monster trucks, concerts, fecking tiddlywinks if it makes them a few quid. But as previously stated the fact that you don't like the alternatives doesn't make the Maze acceptable.

[snatter]

OK, so you say the Maze is not within greater belfast, and I say it is..lets let the geographers out there decide.

Moving on...I'm still waiting with baited breath for details of this new last-minute neutral location, agreed by all 3 sports' governing bodies:

The core issue is that the anti-Maze brigade have failed to come up with any alternative neutral site acceptable to the governing bodies of all three sports.

In the absence of any alternative, then any publicly backed project within the Govt's Shared Spaces strategy has to proceed on the only agreed site available.

Even if your statement was ture (which it clearly isn't)

Oh I must have missed that announcement.
Where exactly is this new alternative neutral site, acceptable to all three governing bodies?

Have you got a google map link to it or something?
Or is it buried somewhere deep in your head, alongside your reality filter?

Where is it? tell me please please please

Ormeau Park is 100% neutral (with slightly Nationalist leanings but nothing to bother anybody), it is available to all sports, in fact the developers have said they'll welcome just about anything, monster trucks, concerts, fecking tiddlywinks if it makes them a few quid. But as previously stated the fact that you don't like the alternatives doesn't make the Maze acceptable.

Sammy,

out of interest, did you read my very recent post of what constitutes a neutral area?
If so, did you understand what it meant?
Did you comprehend that your definition of a neutral area mightn't be shared by GAA fans?
Oh I forgot, in your head, it really doesn't matter what others think - you alone are the sole arbitrar of whats right and wrong.

And just to make sure that teh goalposts stay firmly planted - I categorically stated that

NO OTHER NEUTRAL SITE HAD BEEN APPROVED BY ALL THREE SPORTS' GOVERNING BODIES.

You said that was not true

You're lying.

[SammyG]

Sammy,

out of interest, did you read my very recent post of what constitutes a neutral area?
If so, did you understand what it meant?
Did you comprehend that your definition of a neutral area mightn't be shared by GAA fans?
Oh I forgot, in your head, it really doesn't matter what others think - you alone are the sole arbitrar of whats right and wrong.

No I didn't see your post about neutral areas, I'll read back and have a look. I'm not the arbitrar of anything (right, wrong or otherwise) I'm just pointing out that a stadium based in a park that is currently used by all 'sides' and which will have access from the city centre (neutral), lower Ormeau (Nationalist) and the Revanhill area (Mixed but mainly Unionist) is surely more neutral than one in the middle of a staunchly Loyalist area. You don't seem to have a problem with the Maze area being 100% Loyalist/Unionist but you do have a problem with a mixed area in Belfast.

[SammyG]

To be honest its pointless debating this one with you any further. All Clones attending GAA fans laugh at you guys whinging about going from Belfast to teh MAze, but you guys think it will be some sort of epic journey, taking half a day to get there.
I guess only a qualified traffic engineer would be able to accurately study journey times of those who would use any new stadium.

Sorry I missed this earlier, a qualified traffic engineer (in fact several) have looked at the proposals and have all deemed them to be unworkable, that is the whole point of this discussion. I'm not opposed to the Maze on some point of principle (in fact when it was first mentioned I supported it), I'm opposed because it won't work.

[SammyG]

RIght Snatter I've read your post about neutral sites and your answer seems to be that it doesn't matter what is in the area, what the makeup is etc all that matters is your perception. Christ you had the cheek to accuse me of arrogance.

[snatter]

To be honest its pointless debating this one with you any further. All Clones attending GAA fans laugh at you guys whinging about going from Belfast to teh MAze, but you guys think it will be some sort of epic journey, taking half a day to get there.
I guess only a qualified traffic engineer would be able to accurately study journey times of those who would use any new stadium.

Sorry I missed this earlier, a qualified traffic engineer (in fact several) have looked at the proposals and have all deemed them to be unworkable, that is the whole point of this discussion. I'm not opposed to the Maze on some point of principle (in fact when it was first mentioned I supported it), I'm opposed because it won't work.

News to me.
Can you give me a link to their findings?
What were their assumptions on attendance numbers, the origin of most fans, and their mode of travel?

[snatter]

RIght Snatter I've read your post about neutral sites and your answer seems to be that it doesn't matter what is in the area, what the makeup is etc all that matters is your perception. Christ you had the cheek to accuse me of arrogance.

At least I've exposed the fact that you don't read others' posts before adding to the thread. Breathtaking.

Anyway, you're obviously suffering from some learning disability here.
I never said that I personally decided what officially constitued a neutral area.

Instead, I made clear that

One person's view of a neutral location might differ from anothers, and people may disagree on what exactly construes a neutral site.

To illiustrate, Donagh reckoned that an unsafe area was one that entailed him having to drive through a loyalist area to get to it.
My own definition would focus in on the immediate area that borders the walk from where I'd park my car to the stadium, and how accessible that area was to neighbouring hard core areas, eg lower ravenhill road.
Other GAA fans (possibly remembering unionist rioting and disorder in July 1996) might say that anywhere close to Belfast is too risky, given that loyalists / OO whoever could block roads to prevent anyone getting to a GAA match.

btw, I'd split upper ravenhill and lower ravenhill ito two very different areas.

[Evil Genius]

Donagh's right the GAA culture is to support your team wherever they play. Our epic journeys to and especially from Clones make the journey to the maze look like a sunday stroll in comparison.

Aye the lads that travel to Azerbijan, or the Carribean or the US or Estonia (to name a few recent trips) are all worried about travelling a few miles to watch their team.  You know full well that the distance to/from the Maze is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.

Agreed, distance isn't the issue - its journey time. If you're prepared to travel to Azerbaijan, then you'll find the trip to the Maze much quicker (and much quicker than the one to Clones that up to 36k GAA fans make routinely).
I genuinely don't see your problem here.

To be honest its pointless debating this one with you any further. All Clones attending GAA fans laugh at you guys whinging about going from Belfast to teh MAze, but you guys think it will be some sort of epic journey, taking half a day to get there.
I guess only a qualified traffic engineer would be able to accurately study journey times of those who would use any new stadium.

Journey times/accessibility is only one aspect which causes NI fans overwhelmingly to oppose the Maze. But on this particular point, you overlook one critical factor. Big GAA games in e.g. Clones are played on a Sunday afternoon in Summer. Therefore, crowds can stagger ther arrival and departure times, both to the town and to the stadium, and can hope for reasonable weather for travelling (as well as daylight, obviously).

However, the majority of NI games are evening kick-offs, often in the winter months. Not only that, but the bulk of the supporters come from Belfast or the East of the Province. Many more work in and around Belfast itself.

Therefore, loads of fans finish work/school/college etc in the afternoon and making their way by a number of routes and "establishments"(!) to Windsor Park for a 7.45 kick-off. And after the game, those that wish can stay locally until the crowd disperses, or head off sharpish if they want to beat the rush or have a distance to go. And by 10 or 11 o'clock on a midweek evening, getting through/round Belfast, by a number of alternative routes, is not that difficult.

Whereas, if we have to go to the Maze, since there are absolutely no plans or budget for any significant public transport, the majority of fans will all be going at the same time, along the same single road (M1) to hit the same spur road to the Stadium as several thousand other drivers. Such a journey is bad enough at the best of times. But in bad weather after dark, it is inevitably slower.

And I haven't even got round to mentioning the Belfast Rush Hour - half of which will be heading out along Boucher Road, Stockman's Lane, Westlink etc to get onto the M1 on their journey home at exactly the same time.

And exiting the Maze post-match will be no better, since although the Rush Hour will be over, there will be sod-all in the vicinity of the stadium car park to cause people to linger, so everyone of several thousand cars will be starting thier engines at 9.45 pm and heading for the same single Junction of the M1 (if it's ever built, that is). Believe me, if the frustration doesn't kill, the exhaust fumes will...

This one aspect alone makes the Maze a recipe for disaster.

And btw, on a more general note, almost all of the member clubs of the Supporters' Amalgamation have voted their opposition to the Maze, from Enniskillen to Castlederg to Londonderry etc, including even Hillsborough - the NISC which is closest to the bloody Maze. Ninety per cent of regular fans consider that the stadium should be built somewhere in Belfast.

Personally, I have no desire to get into a "them and us" argument with GAA fans. Those that have expressed a preference seem to prefer the Maze (or not Belfast, at any rate), which is fair enough. But how would you feel if the Government told you that it was insisting on spending £100 million plus of all our taxes on a stadium in a location which 90% of you didn't want, on the basis that soccer preferred that, and you were powerless to object?

You'd be spitting mad, and quite right, too. And what makes it even more galling is that this whole scheme is politically, rather than sports-motivated, on the spurious notion that a combined stadium will somehow bring supporters of the three codes magically together.

I have asked this question several times, without ever receiving a persuasive answer:
How/Why would Ulster rugby fans going out to the Maze on a Friday evening in winter have cause to mix with soccer fans attending the following Wednesday evening, or either have opportunity to integrate with GAA fans attending a match on a Sunday afternoon in Summer, just because they happen to use the same stadium?

The new Wembley Stadium has already been used for a number of different purposes, but I doubt very much whether the George Michael fanclub has been inundated with applications to join from Ingurland soccer supporters! 

I genuinely would like to see greater mixing and understanding between supporters of the three codes, but I'm buggered if I can see how the Maze is going to do this.

On the basis that "A Camel is a Horse designed by a Committee", it is folly (in my opinion) to try to find a "one size fits all" solution to all our needs, since our requirements and circumstances are so much different (and I don't mean on the political or religious front, btw).

Much better to divide, say, half of the £100m+ of Maze money fairly between the three codes, to spend as they they think best (after all, they should know best), on condition that all three must demonstrate that in spending the money, whether on facilities, youth development, community work etc, that they can demonstrate how it is helping each sport reach out beyind their traditional support-base.

And the great majority of the population, who have no great interest in sport, if truth be told, would no doubt be happy to see the remaining half (their/our taxes, after all), spent on schools and hospitals etc.

Finally, the Government could also raise hundreds of millions of pounds by selling the Maze for development, and the rest of us would see another 1000+ badly needed houses released onto the market.

Or am I one of these lunatics who thinks everyone else imust be insane, because they don't see things this way? 

[Evil Genius]

And just to make sure that teh goalposts stay firmly planted - I categorically stated that

NO OTHER NEUTRAL SITE HAD BEEN APPROVED BY ALL THREE SPORTS' GOVERNING BODIES.

I'm afraid this idea that all three sports "approve" of the location is one of the most spurious points made by proponents of the Maze.

I won't dare to speak for GAA fans, but I'm hardly surprised if they are reasonably enthusiastic about a scheme whereby they were able to demand that the original capacity (28,000 btw) be extended to 42,000 to suit their needs and that no location within Belfast be considered, thereby leaving only the Maze. I don't blame them one jot for negotiating from a position of strength, especially since they know they have alternatives at Casemnet, Clones or Croke, should the Maze not turn out to their satisfaction. Nonetheless, I note that this policy decision to support the Maze has not actually been put to the membership in Ulster. Are fans in Monaghan or Antrim/Belfast entirely happy to see games taken away from St. Tiernach's or Casement?

As for rugby fans, the URFU has agreed to go along with this scheme. However, it is obvious to anyone who knows anything about the game that thjey will not ever hold more than one or two games a season maximum. In the meantime, they will make all the right noises in public, since they are awaitng the final installment of an £8 million Government Grant to do up Ravenhill (to a 14,000 capacity, btw).

And as for soccer - we are so seriously strapped for cash, but in dire need of a new stadium, that the IFA will accept any bloody proposal that has even an outside chance of being built. Consequently, whatever the private reservations that many hold, they simply cannot be seen to be anything other than positive.

So there you have it: One sport which is supportive on the basis that it's just a free addition to their existing portfolio of venues, another that doesn't give a fig, since it won't have to use it, and a third sport acquiescing since the Government has a gun to their head.

And through it all, no-one is bothering to ask the taxpayers of NI whether they want £100m+ of their money spent on a stadium dreamed up by some English/Welsh ministers, parachuted in by Downing Street, with a brief to establish some sort of "legacy".

f**k this is depressing...

[stew]

And just to make sure that teh goalposts stay firmly planted - I categorically stated that

NO OTHER NEUTRAL SITE HAD BEEN APPROVED BY ALL THREE SPORTS' GOVERNING BODIES.

I won't dare to speak for GAA fans, but I'm hardly surprised if they are reasonably enthusiastic about a scheme whereby they were able to demand that the original capacity (28,000 btw) be extended to 42,000 to suit their needs and that no location within Belfast be considered, thereby leaving only the Maze. I don't blame them one jot for negotiating from a position of strength, especially since they know they have alternatives at Casemnet, Clones or Croke, should the Maze not turn out to their satisfaction. Nonetheless, I note that this policy decision to support the Maze has not actually been put to the membership in Ulster. Are fans in Monaghan or Antrim/Belfast entirely happy to see games taken away from St. Tiernach's or Casement?


f**k this is depressing...   nah, it is brilliant.

As for taking games away from Clones, that will be one of the major attractions for me, I hate that dump and am delighted I wont have to go back.

As for Casement, GAA fans will go anywhere to watch their team play so the shafties will have to travel a few mile down the road to watch a game at the maze and shure cant they marvel at the memorial when they are there, unless of course  owc's finest big rab hasnt taken a massey ferguson to it.

[SammyG]

At least I've exposed the fact that you don't read others' posts before adding to the thread. Breathtaking.

Sorry your post was a couple of pages back and I missed it, hardly the crime of the century.

Anyway, you're obviously suffering from some learning disability here.
I never said that I personally decided what officially constitued a neutral area.

Instead, I made clear that

One person's view of a neutral location might differ from anothers, and people may disagree on what exactly construes a neutral site.

To illiustrate, Donagh reckoned that an unsafe area was one that entailed him having to drive through a loyalist area to get to it.
My own definition would focus in on the immediate area that borders the walk from where I'd park my car to the stadium, and how accessible that area was to neighbouring hard core areas, eg lower ravenhill road.
Other GAA fans (possibly remembering unionist rioting and disorder in July 1996) might say that anywhere close to Belfast is too risky, given that loyalists / OO whoever could block roads to prevent anyone getting to a GAA match.

btw, I'd split upper ravenhill and lower ravenhill ito two very different areas.

Ignoring the fact that you've resorted to personal abuse (again),If you can't use actually demographic evidence and have to base it on perceptions who do you think should make the decison on whether an area is 'neutral'?

[snatter]

At least I've exposed the fact that you don't read others' posts before adding to the thread. Breathtaking.

Sorry your post was a couple of pages back and I missed it, hardly the crime of the century.

Anyway, you're obviously suffering from some learning disability here.
I never said that I personally decided what officially constitued a neutral area.

Instead, I made clear that

One person's view of a neutral location might differ from anothers, and people may disagree on what exactly construes a neutral site.

To illiustrate, Donagh reckoned that an unsafe area was one that entailed him having to drive through a loyalist area to get to it.
My own definition would focus in on the immediate area that borders the walk from where I'd park my car to the stadium, and how accessible that area was to neighbouring hard core areas, eg lower ravenhill road.
Other GAA fans (possibly remembering unionist rioting and disorder in July 1996) might say that anywhere close to Belfast is too risky, given that loyalists / OO whoever could block roads to prevent anyone getting to a GAA match.

btw, I'd split upper ravenhill and lower ravenhill ito two very different areas.

Ignoring the fact that you've resorted to personal abuse (again),If you can't use actually demographic evidence and have to base it on perceptions who do you think should make the decison on whether an area is 'neutral'?

Sorry sammy,

imho, you're either
a. thick and can't understand my post about how neutrality can't be quantitatively defined.
b. reasonably intelligent, can understand my post and are ignoring the fact that its the perceptions of the GAA negotiating team that   will determine whether they regard the Ormeau as neutral.

They will probably take soundings from some of its membershipa s to whether they would feel safe bring their kids there.
I guess that Ormeau's close proximity to lower ravenhill and donegall pass will make them perceive the area as less neutral and safe than others.
Its not purely about catholic / protestant demographics - its the nature of the area, past history, tribal / paramilitary markings, flags , territoriality, etc.
My own perception would be shaped by risk of attack/abuse while walking from the car to the stadium.
That being said, I wouldn't like to be stuck in a traffic jam on Tates Avenue, with my kids wearing Down tops trying to get back onto the M1.
My guess is that most GAA fans would feel safer in some nice middle class 100% unionist area, say Hillsborough, rather than the Ormeau, with lower ravenhill and donegal pass loyalist stronholds close by.

I really do hope you understand.

[SammyG]

imho, you're either
a. thick and can't understand my post about how neutrality can't be quantitatively defined.
b. reasonably intelligent, can understand my post and are ignoring the fact that its the perceptions of the GAA negotiating team that   will determine whether they regard the Ormeau as neutral.

So you're back to basing your judgement on perception rather than reality? The thousands of Nationalists who live around and use the park (even Donagh FFS  ) are obviously just deluded loyalist stooges and should get out immediately for fear of their lives.

I really do hope you understand.

I genuinely don't. You are arguing two opposite points of view at the same time. You're saying that a venue that can be shown to be neutral isn't but a venue that can be shown to be overwhelmingly loyalist, is actually neutral. You've completely failed to answer any of the real issues with the Maze (infrasturcture, roads, public transport, facilities, bars, hotels etc) so you've reverted to 'perceptions'.

I don't think the OGC or the Audit Office are going to sign of between £85 and £125 million based on perceptions, luckily they'll be dealing in hard facts.