FRC Part 2. The 8 team provinces?

[Zulu]

Sorry AZ, I'm a bit behind on your posts so I've addressed some of my concerns with your proposal in my last post but you still haven't addressed how it helps clubs.

But if we take your seeded idea, then the If Tipp get seeded 3 they'll have to play Cork or Kerry in a Munster semi final every year after both Cork and Kerry have had a warm up game against the likes of Waterford or Clare. I don't see how that adds to the league for any of the teams or improves the Munster championship from what it is now.

[Zulu]

It adds to the league in that all the teams below will be scrambling to avoid a Kerry or a Cork in round one.

No it doesn't. If Waterford and Clare are in division 4 and Tipp and Limerick are in division 3 then the seeds are set before a single league game is played.

Sure f**k it, let's scrap every competition for everyone that doesn't have at least 5 titles in the last 20 years.

Nobody is saying that.

Put all the annoying little teams like tipp, Clare, Offaly, Westmeath Sligo and the like in their own little shite tournament that nobody gives a f**k about, and let the real serious teams play each other. Who wants to see a team like that in the All Ireland semi final or final anyway.

Or this.

[AZOffaly]

Well in my proposal, I've actually given byes to the top seeds, so lets take this year in Munster.

#1 seed is Cork, #2 is Kerry, #3 is Limerick, #4 is Tipperary, #5 is Clare, #6 is Waterford.

the Draw would be Limerick v Waterford, winners to play Cork. Tipperary to play Clare, winners to play Kerry.

As the years go by, it's in your interests to finish as high up the league you can, to try and get as high a seed as possible.  This has to make the league more important. Westmeath this year would have a lovely draw in Leinster by virtue of them getting into Division 1 last season. They'd be #3 Leinster.

[AZOffaly]

It adds to the league in that all the teams below will be scrambling to avoid a Kerry or a Cork in round one.

No it doesn't. If Waterford and Clare are in division 4 and Tipp and Limerick are in division 3 then the seeds are set before a single league game is played.

Sure f**k it, let's scrap every competition for everyone that doesn't have at least 5 titles in the last 20 years.

Nobody is saying that.

Put all the annoying little teams like tipp, Clare, Offaly, Westmeath Sligo and the like in their own little shite tournament that nobody gives a f**k about, and let the real serious teams play each other. Who wants to see a team like that in the All Ireland semi final or final anyway.

Or this.

I've answered the first one, but as regards the second and third points, I think people are saying exactly that. Scrap the provincial tournaments, and Add B and C competitions that these teams can realistically win. Give them a pat on the head and let them play away. Sure we might even let ye be the curtain raisers before Kerry play Tyrone in the All Ireland.

[AZOffaly]

Sorry if I'm a bit abrupt on this, I'm trying to do a bit of work as well, but I absolutely believe that all teams are entitled to have their shot at a provincial title, against the big boys in their province. I would absolutely reject any system which eliminates that. It's not just about the squad and the managers, who can set whatever targets they feel like, in other competitions, and deem it a success or failure depending on how far they go in competition A or B. It's also about how it makes the county feel, and how it makes the kids on the street feel.

I've said, and I repeat, I'd not be against B or C Championships if they came AFTER you were eliminated from the Province, and were played instead of the Qualifiers.  The one thing that would be a draw back in that scenario is that Clubs would be no more certain than they are now, where the uncertainty of the Qualifiers have caused fixture headaches.

[omagh_gael]

This year Tyrone will have to beat Down -> Monaghan -> Derry/Donegal -> Cavan/Armagh/Fermanagh/Antrim to reach the AI quarter finals. Or play up to four matches plus Down if we get beat in preliminary.

Cork and Kerry will play eachother and the winner is at the same point. The loser will play one round of qualifiers and they are sorted for the bank holiday weekend.

This system needs to be ironed out and not just from the Ulster angle. Paul Galvin tweeted that kerry now face a 10/11 week break before next competitive game, effectively a second pre-season. Perhaps they wouldn't mind joining Ulster for the craic!

[Zulu]

That's your interpretation of what's being said AZ but it isn't what I'm saying and I don't think anyone else here is saying that.

I'm pretty sure your proposal is a variation of my own one so I do agree with some of the points you make but in seeding teams based solely on their province then you are in effect making counties like Kerry, Cork, Dublin, Mayo and Tyrone number 1 or 2 seeds every year. So for example if Tipp got as far as division 2 they'd still have to beat both Cork and Kerry to win a Munster while now they might only have to beat one. So for all their good work they could be out of the championship after beating Waterford and losing to Cork in a Munster semi final.

[AZOffaly]

That's your interpretation of what's being said AZ but it isn't what I'm saying and I don't think anyone else here is saying that.

I'm pretty sure your proposal is a variation of my own one so I do agree with some of the points you make but in seeding teams based solely on their province then you are in effect making counties like Kerry, Cork, Dublin, Mayo and Tyrone number 1 or 2 seeds every year. So for example if Tipp got as far as division 2 they'd still have to beat both Cork and Kerry to win a Munster while now they might only have to beat one. So for all their good work they could be out of the championship are beating Waterford and losing to Cork in a Munster semi final.

Remind me of yours again so? How do Tipp win a Munster ? (not smart, I just can't remember).

[AZOffaly]

This year Tyrone will have to beat Down -> Monaghan -> Derry/Donegal -> Cavan/Armagh/Fermanagh/Antrim to reach the AI quarter finals. Or play up to four matches plus Down if we get beat in preliminary.

Cork and Kerry will play eachother and the winner is at the same point. The loser will play one round of qualifiers and they are sorted for the bank holiday weekend.

This system needs to be ironed out and not just from the Ulster angle. Paul Galvin tweeted that kerry now face a 10/11 week break before next competitive game, effectively a second pre-season. Perhaps they wouldn't mind joining Ulster for the craic!

I honestly think the Qualifiers are a waste of time. If Kerry are beaten by Cork, they should be gone.

[muppet]

This year Tyrone will have to beat Down -> Monaghan -> Derry/Donegal -> Cavan/Armagh/Fermanagh/Antrim to reach the AI quarter finals. Or play up to four matches plus Down if we get beat in preliminary.

Cork and Kerry will play eachother and the winner is at the same point. The loser will play one round of qualifiers and they are sorted for the bank holiday weekend.

This system needs to be ironed out and not just from the Ulster angle. Paul Galvin tweeted that kerry now face a 10/11 week break before next competitive game, effectively a second pre-season. Perhaps they wouldn't mind joining Ulster for the craic!

I honestly think the Qualifiers are a waste of time. If Kerry are beaten by Cork, they should be gone.

The qualifiers have been very good to the big teams. Other than a few celebrated runs from say Sligo in 2002 and Fermanagh in 2004 there has been very little point to the qualifiers.

If the objective is more games then the clubs complain and they have a point given the completely unplanned nature of the qualifier schedule. There has to be a better way.

[AZOffaly]

This year Tyrone will have to beat Down -> Monaghan -> Derry/Donegal -> Cavan/Armagh/Fermanagh/Antrim to reach the AI quarter finals. Or play up to four matches plus Down if we get beat in preliminary.

Cork and Kerry will play eachother and the winner is at the same point. The loser will play one round of qualifiers and they are sorted for the bank holiday weekend.

This system needs to be ironed out and not just from the Ulster angle. Paul Galvin tweeted that kerry now face a 10/11 week break before next competitive game, effectively a second pre-season. Perhaps they wouldn't mind joining Ulster for the craic!

I honestly think the Qualifiers are a waste of time. If Kerry are beaten by Cork, they should be gone.

The qualifiers have been very good to the big teams. Other than a few celebrated runs from say Sligo in 2002 and Fermanagh in 2004 there has been very little point to the qualifiers.

If the objective is more games then the clubs complain and they have a point given the completely unplanned nature of the qualifier schedule. There has to be a better way.

I agree with you on this

That's why I'd not necessarily be against a secondary or tertiary competition for weaker counties, depending on when they exit the province. But as I said, that doesn't really alleviate the issue about club uncertainty. It would make those competitions a bit more competitive and realistic for those counties to win. The question would be would they care?

[Dinny Breen]

Provincial titles are a realistic aim for everybody.

Really?

Dublin have won 9 of the last 12!

Kildare haven't won since 2000, Meath since 2001, Offaly since 1997 and Wexford since 1945. They are the 4 teams behind Dublin on the roll of honour.

Carlow, Longford, Westmeath and Wicklow have won 4 titles between them.

Dublin are only getting stronger 4 of the last 5 u21 Leinster titles and 3 of the last 5 minor titles. So over the last 5 years Dublin have won 11 of the 15 titles available at minor, u21 and Senior.

The Leinster Provincial Championship as a contest is dead. Once Dublin got organised and started utilising their competitive advantages it was only ever going to go one way.

Dinny, if we do away with competitions on that basis, then the All Ireland should be scrapped. Only Dublin, Kerry, Tyrone, Donegal and Cork have won it in the past 10 years or so, and teams like Mayo, Roscommon, Offaly, Kildare, Derry, Cavan etc etc haven't won it in decades.

I think the provincial championship is a realistic target for everyone, at least to reach a final. As I've said, several teams have reached provincial finals, or won them, in the not distant past that have never done so before. That's because they had an aim, a dream, and worked towards it.

By all means introduce a secondary or tertiary competition after the Provincial championships, instead of that bolloxology Qualifer system. But at least let the likes of Tipp and Sligo and Leitrim dream of a provincial title against the big boys the odd time.

Sorry AZ I know your debating lots of different points here, you stated a provincial title is a realist goal. History tells us otherwise and with the behemoth that is now Dublin  it has never been further away for the majority of counties in Leinster. You have
3 Tiers in Leinster Tier 1 Dublin (expectations aren't measured in Leinsters)  Tier 2 Kildare, Meath, Laois, Westmeath, Louth (a Leinster final is a good season) Tier 3 Longford, Wicklow, Carlow, Offaly (1 championship win is a good season). Of the 10 other teams in Leinster only one Meath would you fancy, maybe, to put it up to Dublin but certainly not to win.

People can dream all you want but any sports psychologist will tell you your goals have to be a realistic. Can anyone realistically see any competition to Dublin in Leinster over the next 10 years, I certainly can't.

[Rossfan]

AZ seems to be saying that anyone not praising the Provincial Championships is somehow arguing against their continuance.
They WILL be kept no matter what format/structure comes in in time.
I am in favour of keeping them too as real Provinces not 8 team artificial makyuppy ones.
Problem is if they are too linked to the AI then Cork/Kerry/Dublin are nearly always going to be in the last 12 at worst while the better Ulster teams will have a long hard struggle to get that far every year.
So the question then becomes  -how can we keep the Provincials linked to the AI but not as much so as at present so that Ulster (and hopefully Connacht in a year or 2 when we all catch up on the Rhubarb colossus) teams have a more level playing field?
Question 2 - has anyone surveyed the players of the "weaker " Counties to see do they want separate National competitions to the Qualifiers?
Q 3- Should Counties be allowed opt out of the Qualifiers - esp after last year's debacles with Leitrim, Offaly and Wicklow?

Of course a proper calendar of fixtures to allow Club Championships to advance in tandem with Inter Co Championships is a MUST no matter what else the future brings.

[Itchy]

There is no way we are going to accept moving. We are the aristocrats of Ulster football. How can you take the team that win 39 Ulster titles and put them over with the rock eaters in Connacht. No chance Cavan will buy into this silly idea. Would be like Kerry moving to Leinster. Let Donegal feck off over there, their love of sheep would be similar to the locals in Roscommon.

How many of those yokes have ye won in the last forty years?

I know if there was a vote to get rid of a county from connacht It would be easy predict who would be booted out. Not sure who'd take ye in but.

[Zulu]

That's your interpretation of what's being said AZ but it isn't what I'm saying and I don't think anyone else here is saying that.

I'm pretty sure your proposal is a variation of my own one so I do agree with some of the points you make but in seeding teams based solely on their province then you are in effect making counties like Kerry, Cork, Dublin, Mayo and Tyrone number 1 or 2 seeds every year. So for example if Tipp got as far as division 2 they'd still have to beat both Cork and Kerry to win a Munster while now they might only have to beat one. So for all their good work they could be out of the championship are beating Waterford and losing to Cork in a Munster semi final.

Remind me of yours again so? How do Tipp win a Munster ? (not smart, I just can't remember).

Tipp can't win a Munster senior football title but that's not a major goal of my proposal

Anyway here is my proposal for club and county.

1. No provincial championship at senior level. Seed teams for an open draw based on league performance. Minor and U21 played on the geographical basis of 4 groups of 8, top 2 in each group qualify for QF's. Nobody is allowed to play more than one code or level.

If we take this year as an example then the following would happen

Mar 1 & 2 - Rd 1 of leagues Senior F & H.
               - Rd 1 of Minor & U21 group games F & H
Apr 12 & 13 - Last rd of leagues F & H - divisional champions crowned
                  - Last Rd of group stages of minor & U21 championship F & H, quarter finalists known. [MINOR CHAMPIONSHIPS IN ALL BUT 8 COUNTIES COULD NOW START WITH NO CHANCE OF INTER COUNTY INTERFERING]

Apr 19 & 20 - OFF

Apr 26 & 27 - Rd 1 F championship
                  - QF minor & U21 F & H championship [16 COUNTIES COULD NOW START THEIR SENIOR AND/OR U21 CHAMPIONSHIPS WITHOUT INTER COUNTY INTERFERENCE]

May 3 & 4 - Rd 1 H championship A & B (A = div 1 & 2, B = rest) [8 COUNTIES COULD NOW POTENTIALLY START THEIR SENIOR CLUB CHAMPIONSHIPS WITHOUT INTER COUNTY INTERFERENCE]

May 10 & 11 - Rd 2 F championship
                   - SF minor & U21 championships

May 17 & 18 - QF H

May 24 & 25 - QF F
                   - Final minor & U21 F & H [EVERY MINOR FOOTBALL & HURLING CHAMPIONSHIP IN IRELAND CAN BE SET OUT NOW]

May 31 & June 1 - SF - H

June 7 & 8 - SF - F

June 15 - All Ireland hurling final

June 29 - All Ireland football final

Now there are a few issues there, playing All Ireland semi finals on Saturday being one but they would be minor enough challenges and there is a bit of leeway in the calendar there. With most club championships in full swing by June getting the All Ireland club championship done by the end of the year should be achievable. This would wipe out players being pulled from pillar to post by multiple teams, give club players a clear season, increase the number of meaningful games IC players play and give everyone a chance of realistically winning something.