FRC Part 2. The 8 team provinces?

[AZOffaly]

Looks like the GAA are moving onto the second phase of the FRC report, the Provincial Championships being redefined into 4 equal 8s. Zulu will be delighted to see they are still 'provincial' championships in nature.

At the recent meeting of the GAA's Central Council, President Liam O'Neill requested the members to ask all their county boards to discuss Part 2 of the recent Football Review Committee (FRC) report and forward their views to the next Central Council meeting for further discussion. Bearing this in mind the FRC wishes to clarify one aspect of its Part ll Report.
The key is to reach the four eights structure and enable a more streamlined Provincial and All-Ireland series while facilitating the playing of club championship games.
Eugene McGee
During its consultations and deliberations the FRC encountered an overwhelming wish to see a radical improvement in club fixtures, specifically club championships throughout the country. While there was also a very strong desire to see an Inter-county championship based on four groups of eight counties, there was also a strong desire that the provincial championships should be maintained as an integral part of the All-Ireland Championship series.
If the proposal to adjust the current make-up of provinces into four groups of eight for the All-Ireland Championship proper were to be adopted this would facilitate a more orderly and fairer system of playing off the Provincial and All-Ireland Championships. This in turn would lead to more weekends being available free of Inter-county games, thereby making it possible for County Boards to play more club championship games in the months of May, June and July – something that FRC surveys and consultation discussions show clearly is the earnest wish of the vast majority of club players. It would also allow the All-Ireland Club Championship to be concluded by December.
The FRC proposed one method for adjusting the present provinces into four eights. There may well be alternative suggestions as to how one might arrive at a provincial structure based on four eights. Whatever route is taken to reach that situation, the key point of our proposal should not be lost or confused by focusing on one example of how to reach the four groups of eight.
The Chairman of the FRC, Eugene McGee said that, "The key is to reach the four eights structure and enable a more streamlined Provincial and All-Ireland series while facilitating the playing of club championship games throughout the country during the summer months, something whose absence was the single biggest criticism to arise during our nationwide consultation process."

[Zulu]

I really don't mind if there is a provincial aspect to the championship as long as there is a clear and universal way of making your way to an All Ireland title. Pretty much anything would be an improvement on the current farce

[AZOffaly]

Lets see how this might work. Geographical constrainsts would surely come into it, but essentially we have 9 teams in Ulster, 6 in Connacht, 6 in Munster and 11 in Leinster.

So, we need to reduce Ulster by one, and move them into Connacht. Donegal might be an option, as they touch Sligo, but probably Cavan makes more sense as it's closer to more of the Connacht counties.

That makes Ulster 8, Connacht 7, Munster 6 and Leinster 11.

So the next three have to come out of Leinster. Again, based on geography, you could argue for Offaly or Longford to be in Connacht, with the borders with Roscommon and Galway in Offaly's case. Lets say Longford.

That makes Ulster 8, Connacht 8, Munster 6 and Leinster 10.

So now two more from Leinster into Munster. Offaly touches Tipperary, but would be stretching the province a good bit north. Laois would also be touching Tipp, and a bit lower down. Kilkenny are irrelevant for this hypothesis, so Wexford or Carlow probably the only others that would make sense. I'd imagine Offaly and Laois into Munster would be the most efficient.

So,

Ulster : Donegal, Monaghan, Antrim, Armagh, Down, Derry, Fermanagh and Tyrone.
Connacht : Cavan, Longford, Galway, Mayo, Sligo, Roscommon, Leitrim and London.
Leinster: Louth, Meath, Dublin, Westmeath, Kildare, Carlow, Wicklow and Wexford.
Munster: Offaly, Laois, Tipperary, Limerick, Clare, Waterford, Kerry and Cork,

[orangeman]

All to suit Sky TV.













I'll get my coat. 

[smort]

Agree with almost all of that AZ but I would have Carlow and Wexford in Munster instead of Laois and Offaly. Makes geographical sense then for a North, South, East and West Championship.

[AZOffaly]

Agree with almost all of that AZ but I would have Carlow and Wexford in Munster instead of Laois and Offaly. Makes geographical sense then for a North, South, East and West Championship.

But Carlow and Wexford would be more East than Offaly and Laois would be. Wexford to Clare would be a long auld spin for a Munster game. Offaly or Laois to Clare or Kerry is more manageable.

[thewobbler]

I don't get this at all.

Intercounty football has always had two prizes worth winning: your provincial championship and the All-Ireland championship.

Those counties that have won a couple of provincials in recent years only have eyes on the big prize, but for around 24 counties in Ireland, winning a provincial title is a genuinely big deal. For a handful of counties (especially now there's a back door system) a provincial title is the biggest prize they'll ever win; their biggest day in the sun.

By mucking around with these structures, it would become solely about the All-Ireland. Which means 24+ counties every year have realistically no chance whatsover of winning sought-after silverware. I'm sure someone will dream up a "B" Championship of some description to fill the void, but if there's been one unchallengeable truth in intercounty GAA over the years, it's that nobody wants to play Shield/B/Tommy Murphy football: the players would rather rather return to their clubs, and back to senior action (even if it's not intercounty senior).

-----

The better solution, which a few of us have touched upon over the years on this board, is to:

1. Separate the Provincial Championships from the All-Ireland Championship.

2. Play the Provincials earlier in the season (removing the likes of the McKenna and FBD cups to make way).

3. Reward the Provincial finalists by seeding them in an open All-Ireland Championship draw and giving them home advantage until the quarters. Basically, a full draw is made, and those 8 counties become the 8 seeds who, if everything falls into place for them, couldn't meet each other until the quarter finals (and Provincial winners couldn't meet each other until the semis).

4. Get rid of the back door.

- - - -

Under this approach, every county gets at least 2 Championship games, and every county gets a maximum of 9 Championship games.

Under this approach, 16 teams would have their county season over by early June, and 24 would be done by late June.

So we get entire summers for club football in most counties. And we don't prolong the county season unnecessarily.

[AZOffaly]

I don't get this at all.

Intercounty football has always had two prizes worth winning: your provincial championship and the All-Ireland championship.

Those counties that have won a couple of provincials in recent years only have eyes on the big prize, but for around 24 counties in Ireland, winning a provincial title is a genuinely big deal. For a handful of counties (especially now there's a back door system) a provincial title is the biggest prize they'll ever win; their biggest day in the sun.

By mucking around with these structures, it would become solely about the All-Ireland. Which means 24+ counties every year have realistically no chance whatsover of winning sought-after silverware. I'm sure someone will dream up a "B" Championship of some description to fill the void, but if there's been one unchallengeable truth in intercounty GAA over the years, it's that nobody wants to play Shield/B/Tommy Murphy football: the players would rather rather return to their clubs, and back to senior action (even if it's not intercounty senior).

-----

The better solution, which a few of us have touched upon over the years on this board, is to:

1. Separate the Provincial Championships from the All-Ireland Championship.

2. Play the Provincials earlier in the season (removing the likes of the McKenna and FBD cups to make way).

3. Reward the Provincial finalists by seeding them in an open All-Ireland Championship draw and giving them home advantage until the quarters. Basically, a full draw is made, and those 8 counties become the 8 seeds who, if everything falls into place for them, couldn't meet each other until the quarter finals (and Provincial winners couldn't meet each other until the semis).

4. Get rid of the back door.

- - - -

Under this approach, every county gets at least 2 Championship games, and every county gets a maximum of 9 Championship games.

Under this approach, 16 teams would have their county season over by early June, and 24 would be done by late June.

So we get entire summers for club football in most counties. And we don't prolong the county season unnecessarily.

wobbler, I believe the FRC proposal retains the provincial silverware, it just means 4 counties will be playing for a different trophy than they have done previously.

[blewuporstuffed]

I don't get this at all.

Intercounty football has always had two prizes worth winning: your provincial championship and the All-Ireland championship.

Those counties that have won a couple of provincials in recent years only have eyes on the big prize, but for around 24 counties in Ireland, winning a provincial title is a genuinely big deal. For a handful of counties (especially now there's a back door system) a provincial title is the biggest prize they'll ever win; their biggest day in the sun.

By mucking around with these structures, it would become solely about the All-Ireland. Which means 24+ counties every year have realistically no chance whatsover of winning sought-after silverware. I'm sure someone will dream up a "B" Championship of some description to fill the void, but if there's been one unchallengeable truth in intercounty GAA over the years, it's that nobody wants to play Shield/B/Tommy Murphy football: the players would rather rather return to their clubs, and back to senior action (even if it's not intercounty senior).

-----

The better solution, which a few of us have touched upon over the years on this board, is to:

1. Separate the Provincial Championships from the All-Ireland Championship.

2. Play the Provincials earlier in the season (removing the likes of the McKenna and FBD cups to make way).

3. Reward the Provincial finalists by seeding them in an open All-Ireland Championship draw and giving them home advantage until the quarters. Basically, a full draw is made, and those 8 counties become the 8 seeds who, if everything falls into place for them, couldn't meet each other until the quarter finals (and Provincial winners couldn't meet each other until the semis).

4. Get rid of the back door.

- - - -

Under this approach, every county gets at least 2 Championship games, and every county gets a maximum of 9 Championship games.

Under this approach, 16 teams would have their county season over by early June, and 24 would be done by late June.

So we get entire summers for club football in most counties. And we don't prolong the county season unnecessarily.

that does make some sense wobbler....

they will never go for it 

[Zulu]

I don't get this at all.

Intercounty football has always had two prizes worth winning: your provincial championship and the All-Ireland championship.

Those counties that have won a couple of provincials in recent years only have eyes on the big prize, but for around 24 counties in Ireland, winning a provincial title is a genuinely big deal. For a handful of counties (especially now there's a back door system) a provincial title is the biggest prize they'll ever win; their biggest day in the sun.

By mucking around with these structures, it would become solely about the All-Ireland. Which means 24+ counties every year have realistically no chance whatsover of winning sought-after silverware. I'm sure someone will dream up a "B" Championship of some description to fill the void, but if there's been one unchallengeable truth in intercounty GAA over the years, it's that nobody wants to play Shield/B/Tommy Murphy football: the players would rather rather return to their clubs, and back to senior action (even if it's not intercounty senior).

-----

The better solution, which a few of us have touched upon over the years on this board, is to:

1. Separate the Provincial Championships from the All-Ireland Championship.

2. Play the Provincials earlier in the season (removing the likes of the McKenna and FBD cups to make way).

3. Reward the Provincial finalists by seeding them in an open All-Ireland Championship draw and giving them home advantage until the quarters. Basically, a full draw is made, and those 8 counties become the 8 seeds who, if everything falls into place for them, couldn't meet each other until the quarter finals (and Provincial winners couldn't meet each other until the semis).

4. Get rid of the back door.

- - - -

Under this approach, every county gets at least 2 Championship games, and every county gets a maximum of 9 Championship games.

Under this approach, 16 teams would have their county season over by early June, and 24 would be done by late June.

So we get entire summers for club football in most counties. And we don't prolong the county season unnecessarily.

I'd agree with playing the provincial championships separately but I'd link the league rather than the provinces to the championship, which is knockout. More meaningful games, a good structure to the season, three worthwhile titles to compete for, your provincial, your division and Sam and more free weekends for clubs.

[thewobbler]

AZ, I would suggest that the value of a Provincial Championship isn't decided by a committee, it's decided by history and tradition.

Streamlining the provinces into pools of 8s doesn't maintain these mini championships, it just creates an artificial interim point in the journey towards an All Ireland.

It'll also cause bucketloads of ramifications down through club and schools championships, as you have to assume it would follow suit. And heaven knows how much politics would unfold through demarcation. I'd harbour a guess that Offaly and Laois might have to work harder for cash if they weren't guaranteed fixtures against Dublin at Croker every few years.

[AZOffaly]

AZ, I would suggest that the value of a Provincial Championship isn't decided by a committee, it's decided by history and tradition.

Streamlining the provinces into pools of 8s doesn't maintain these mini championships, it just creates an artificial interim point in the journey towards an All Ireland.

It'll also cause bucketloads of ramifications down through club and schools championships, as you have to assume it would follow suit. And heaven knows how much politics would unfold through demarcation. I'd harbour a guess that Offaly and Laois might have to work harder for cash if they weren't guaranteed fixtures against Dublin at Croker every few years.

No, I get you. I just thought you assumed the Provincial titles were being done away with, instead of realigned. I actually agree with you. Offaly winning a Connacht or Munster championship wouldn't mean much to me. Actually scratch that, what am i saying. Offaly winning a Connacht or Munster championship MATCH would mean a lot these days!

[thewobbler]

I'd agree with playing the provincial championships separately but I'd link the league rather than the provinces to the championship, which is knockout. More meaningful games, a good structure to the season, three worthwhile titles to compete for, your provincial, your division and Sam and more free weekends for clubs.

I had a wonderfully mad theory on doing this typed up a few years ago.

But the fundamental problem with having three titles worth winning at intercounty level is that by very nature, it would be detrimental to the club game, as county managers would make even more demands for exclusive ownership of players.

I've come around to the thinking that our only genuine solutions to reduce the load on players are:

1. Compress, where possible, the county season, thereby freeing more players up for club duty only.

OR

2.  Accept that elite players should be allowed to prosper in an elite environment, and make some sort of ruling that once involved in a county set-up, players are entirely removed from club/school/university/etc action until their county's season is over.


My heart says the former, but my head says the latter. It would take clubs a while to get used to not having their star players around, but if they could begin to look upon their availability as a bonus rather than a right (as happens in rugby and soccer),  it would help things. The motion to allow this to happen would though, in my opinion, never get through congress.

[Zulu]

I think there are other things we can do wobbler. We can confine players to one code and age group, play the league and provincial championship simultaneously and play the championship as knockout (as already agreed). You need 6 weeks to play an provincial championship and 7 to play each division so thats 13 weeks. A February start means an early May finish with a week or two off built in. Clubs play non-IC competitions during this time. There's no easy solution to this but I think we need to look at separate seasons for club and county.

[AZOffaly]

I think there are other things we can do wobbler. We can confine players to one code and age group, play the league and provincial championship simultaneously and play the championship as knockout (as already agreed). You need 6 weeks to play an provincial championship and 7 to play each division so thats 13 weeks. A February start means an early May finish with a week or two off built in. Clubs play non-IC competitions during this time. There's no easy solution to this but I think we need to look at separate seasons for club and county.

Zulu, when you say confine players to one code and age group, I presume you mean at county level? I don't agree with it myself, and Tipp would have a huge amount of dual minors for example, but at club level that would be unworkable. You might as well forget about Football in Tipp or Hurling in 80% of counties.