2013 All Ireland Final: Mayo v Dublin

[Mayo4Sam]

There seems to be some rose tinted glasses WRT Andys displays last year and the year before.
Yes he won everything that went into him but not because he was 5 yards ahead of his man, he was doing what Conroy did on Sunday, using his body to keep the defender off while gathering the ball in. In Andys case a lot of the time at the second time of asking.
I think he's very close to that, we saw on Sunday a couple of times, one in particular in the first half where Dillon kicked it down the line to him and he tipped it down to himself but over the sideline, last year he would have kept it in. Small margins but things that can be rectified.

As for Dillon, talk of him getting dropped is pure nonsense, he has the composure to kick a point or a foot pass when its needed.
Ditto for McLoughlin, FFS one bad game in three years.

COC will start, definitely and without doubt. This talk of him coming in with 15 mins left, so the scenario is that we need him, he comes on, shoulder pops, where are we then? He'll start, if it goes it goes, Mayo will have plan B, which will hopefully involve Conroy and not Varley.

As for player welfare, well thats the greatest load of bollix I ever heard and if COC was to allow Horan to leave him off that give him the chance then he wouldnt deserve to be there. Theres not a man who has played football that would miss an all-ireland final on that basis. And the likes of Syferus can take the high road but we all know that the strongest voice for COC playing in the final will be COC himself.

[blanketattack]

A lot of Mayo fans saying that they'd prefer to play Kerry than Dublin because (a) Kerry have been poor in the c'ship so far and (b) Dublin are a much better team.
If Kerry beat Dublin then Kerry will have proven themselves to be a better team and a victory over Dublin will obviously make Kerry's overall c'ship performance seem a lot better. Sunday can potentially change what's being viewed in the rearview mirror immensely.

It's like Meath fans preferring to play Kerry than Dublin in the '09 semi-final due to Kerry's poor performances v Sligo, Longford and Antrim. Did Meath fans still think Kerry were the preferred option after Kerry beat Dublin?

[Farrandeelin]

The team that beats Dublin will win Sam.

[ballinaman]

The team that beats Dublin will win Sam.

So you're tipping Dublin for Sunday then?

[Lar Naparka]

Anyone with that much strapping on a shoulder never looks fine. It's a minders woner he survived London and Donegal intact.

Sound man Syf; did I ever disagree with ya yet?
The odds were high that we'd have won every match to date without Cillian starting in any of them. I'd have given him a run okay just to keep him sharp or to bring him on if the going got tough at any stage but it was unwise to have him play every game.
Sure, there would still be risks if he only came on as a sub but they would be considerably less.
Right now, 3-3 against London or 3-4 against Donegal counts for sweet FA.

Hindsight is great alright. I don't recall you voicing your concerns in advance of the Donegal or Tyrone games though

Did I have to? Did the subject ever come up before now?
If you can find anything wrong with what I say, go ahead and point it out.
You seem to going back to your nasty, sneering self again.
Why don't you just cop on yourself for a change and act like a grown up?

Relax Lar will you. You're more than capable of arguing your point, don't get sensitive when someone asks you to explain it or back it up.
You said he shouldn't have been started against Tyrone, I simply asked why you didn't voice that concern beforehand.
I didn't see any higher risk before the Tyrone game than there was before the Donegal game, and there was nobody (that I can remember at least) saying he shouldn't have started that day. Obviously you weren't obliged to make that point in advance, but don't be surprised if someone says we can all be clever in hindsight.

Anyway, my feeling the next day would be that Cillian should not be started, and even bringing him on could be foolhardy.
It seems too big a gamble, both for the team and for Cillian himself.
But I've next to no knowledge of recovery times of shoulder dislocations, or the likelyhood of it re-occuring and what further damage that could do. So I'll leave that to the Mayo medical team, management team and Cillian himself.

Sorry Tubber, if I was fast off the mark.
I thought what I had to say was self-obvious.


I don't know if you or anybody else has any sons or have realistic prospects of having one.
But if you have or when you will have, you'll know what I mean.
The thought of strapping any young fellow up, giving him a few shots of painkillers and telling him to get on with it, doesn't appeal to me – to put it mildly.
I've been waiting for an A-I win for longer than most here and I prefer to wait as long again rather than see anyone putting his health and career prospects at risk.
Syferus in his last post summed my feelings up far better that I could ever do.
I would not be as critical of Horan as he is but I still take his point.
James would have listened to medical advice and seen COC in training before he decided to let him play. Apart from all that, the player would have pestered him to get the go ahead.
Anyone of his age and with his talent would feel the same way but players can be their own worst enemies at times.
Now, in deciding to let him play, Horan had two conflicting considerations to bear in mind.
On the one hand, getting match time would sharpen his skills and help get him back to full fitness again. But every minute he spent on the field increased the chances of him getting injured again.

If I were Horan, I'd only play him when I felt it was necessary to do so.
Sure, he scored 0-6 against Galway and every Mayo fan was delighted to see him back but the result was a foregone conclusion long before the end.
He scored 3-4 against London but Mayo could have won that game without him. London got a bit physical coming towards the end and he could well have injured his shoulder once again.
We badly need him for the final but if he's not fully fit or likely to break down again during the game, it's damn all use saying, "Ah, but he scored 3-4 against London, didn't he?"
As for not wanting him to start against Tyrone, I think you'd better figure that one out for yourself!
I don't have the heart to start another row with the Tyronies. Enough people have already accused them of being cynical, dirty hoors without me adding my tuppence worth.

[Farrandeelin]

The team that beats Dublin will win Sam.

So you're tipping Dublin for Sunday then?

Just to shade it. But if Kerry win on Sunday, I stand over what I say.

[rosnarun]

On Hprans form the only place up for discussion is Cillians and that will be based on fitness alone. there may be a lot of mind games played there of the will he wont he type. they have started already .
And my money would be on feeney to replace him in so shape or form or Doherty as an outside bet.
Though Barry at full forward would Really throw the cat amonst the pidgeons

[Syferus]

There seems to be some rose tinted glasses WRT Andys displays last year and the year before.
Yes he won everything that went into him but not because he was 5 yards ahead of his man, he was doing what Conroy did on Sunday, using his body to keep the defender off while gathering the ball in. In Andys case a lot of the time at the second time of asking.
I think he's very close to that, we saw on Sunday a couple of times, one in particular in the first half where Dillon kicked it down the line to him and he tipped it down to himself but over the sideline, last year he would have kept it in. Small margins but things that can be rectified.

As for Dillon, talk of him getting dropped is pure nonsense, he has the composure to kick a point or a foot pass when its needed.
Ditto for McLoughlin, FFS one bad game in three years.

COC will start, definitely and without doubt. This talk of him coming in with 15 mins left, so the scenario is that we need him, he comes on, shoulder pops, where are we then? He'll start, if it goes it goes, Mayo will have plan B, which will hopefully involve Conroy and not Varley.

As for player welfare, well thats the greatest load of bollix I ever heard and if COC was to allow Horan to leave him off that give him the chance then he wouldnt deserve to be there. Theres not a man who has played football that would miss an all-ireland final on that basis. And the likes of Syferus can take the high road but we all know that the strongest voice for COC playing in the final will be COC himself.

The win at all costs mentality in a nutshell. Trying to hide behind the transparent shroud of 'it's the players/management's decision' as if they're acting in the interests of the players' health and not some blinkered attempt a winning an important match. They do not know themselves best, in fact in many cases they haven't a clue, just look at Alan Brogan appearing v. Mayo last September and not seeing the field again for now going on 12 months. Perspective and objectivity is lacking in almost all situations like this.

There's a lot of weak managers who don't have what it takes to make a big call like dropping a seriously injured palyer for a final even when they're telling him endlessly that they want to play. From everything I've seen about Horan I expect more than him taking the easy out on this one.

What does it say to lads like Conroy, Doherty, Coen or Varley? You're so shite even a fella with three shoulder injuries in one year (and someone who is going to need surgery one way or another when his season ends) is so superior to you that he still starts over you even when you're at 100%? That'd be a punch in the face to the idea Mayo have a strong panel - something Horan himself was bloviating about in media interviews very recently - and would raise questions in a lot of players' heads as to what the point of them being there is.

[ballinaman]

Quality... It's going to be some month....


http://vimeo.com/73295418

[Zulu]

Will you stop FFS that's a complete crock of shite. For starters, Horan will, like all managers, take his lead from the medical staff on this. If they say he could play then he'd sit down with Cillian and the medical support staff to discuss things and get the players thoughts on it considering the risks. Once Horan has this information he'll discuss the optionswith his selectors and make a decision based on what's best for Mayo.

It's a potential shoulder dislocation not a bloody charge across no mans land, O'Connor will be fine down the line either way.

As for the other players, Jesus wept!!! They'll be fine, they all know Cillian is a starter when fit or near it. None of them will be crying into their frosties because Horan starts a less than 100% fit O'Connor before them. Though your whole post screams 'I've never spent much time in football dressing rooms or training pitches'.

[Syferus]

Will you stop FFS that's a complete crock of shite. For starters, Horan will, like all managers, take his lead from the medical staff on this. If they say he could play then he'd sit down with Cillian and the medical support staff to discuss things and get the players thoughts on it considering the risks. Once Horan has this information he'll discuss the optionswith his selectors and make a decision based on what's best for Mayo.

It's a potential shoulder dislocation not a bloody charge across no mans land, O'Connor will be fine down the line either way.

As for the other players, Jesus wept!!! They'll be fine, they all know Cillian is a starter when fit or near it. None of them will be crying into their frosties because Horan starts a less than 100% fit O'Connor before them. Though your whole post screams 'I've never spent much time in football dressing rooms or training pitches'.

If you think managers listen to medical advice religiously I really don't know what to say.

Particularly in high-pressure, big-stakes matches they are far more likely to chance their arm on a key player than that the most prudent course. That isn't how sport has ever operated and I doubt the Mayo in 2013 isn't the exception to the rule.

It takes a smart man to know when the game is up. You can rely on the player themselves to tell you they're ok or want to play. The manager is the authority figure and loves to play the role of a leader but it's in situations like this when you find out how much of a managers' rhetoric is hot air and how much is the real thing.

COC shouldn't be let near a game of football again in 2013, and he definitely shouldn't be starting the most intense game on the GAA calendar.

[Lar Naparka]

There seems to be some rose tinted glasses WRT Andys displays last year and the year before.
Yes he won everything that went into him but not because he was 5 yards ahead of his man, he was doing what Conroy did on Sunday, using his body to keep the defender off while gathering the ball in. In Andys case a lot of the time at the second time of asking.
I think he's very close to that, we saw on Sunday a couple of times, one in particular in the first half where Dillon kicked it down the line to him and he tipped it down to himself but over the sideline, last year he would have kept it in. Small margins but things that can be rectified.

As for Dillon, talk of him getting dropped is pure nonsense, he has the composure to kick a point or a foot pass when its needed.
Ditto for McLoughlin, FFS one bad game in three years.

COC will start, definitely and without doubt. This talk of him coming in with 15 mins left, so the scenario is that we need him, he comes on, shoulder pops, where are we then? He'll start, if it goes it goes, Mayo will have plan B, which will hopefully involve Conroy and not Varley.

As for player welfare, well thats the greatest load of bollix I ever heard and if COC was to allow Horan to leave him off that give him the chance then he wouldnt deserve to be there. Theres not a man who has played football that would miss an all-ireland final on that basis. And the likes of Syferus can take the high road but we all know that the strongest voice for COC playing in the final will be COC himself.

The win at all costs mentality in a nutshell. Trying to hide behind the transparent shroud of 'it's the players/management's decision' as if they're acting in the interests of the players' health and not some blinkered attempt a winning an important match. They do not know themselves best, in fact in many cases they haven't a clue, just look at Alan Brogan appearing v. Mayo last September and not seeing the field again for now going on 12 months. Perspective and objectivity is lacking in almost all situations like this.

There's a lot of weak managers who don't have what it takes to make a big call like dropping a seriously injured palyer for a final even when they're telling him endlessly that they want to play. From everything I've seen about Horan I expect more than him taking the easy out on this one.

What does it say to lads like Conroy, Doherty, Coen or Varley? You're so shite even a fella with three shoulder injuries in one year (and someone who is going to need surgery one way or another when his season ends) is so superior to you that he still starts over you even when you're at 100%? That'd be a punch in the face to the idea Mayo have a strong panel - something Horan himself was bloviating about in media interviews very recently - and would raise questions in a lot of players' heads as to what the point of them being there is.

Syf, you're in absolutely  flying form! Keep it up.
I never thought you'd be serious about anything but I sure was very wrong.
There's nothing I could add to this post or the one before it.
Now I'm of to Ballagh to rally the troops. I'll leave a pint for you in Durkin's on my way back. That will be on Saturday as I won't have time to delay today.
Just tell whoever's behind the counter that Lar left it for you.

[ballinaman]

Will you stop FFS that's a complete crock of shite. For starters, Horan will, like all managers, take his lead from the medical staff on this. If they say he could play then he'd sit down with Cillian and the medical support staff to discuss things and get the players thoughts on it considering the risks. Once Horan has this information he'll discuss the options with his selectors and make a decision based on what's best for Mayo.

It's a potential shoulder dislocation not a bloody charge across no mans land, O'Connor will be fine down the line either way.

As for the other players, Jesus wept!!! They'll be fine, they all know Cillian is a starter when fit or near it. None of them will be crying into their frosties because Horan starts a less than 100% fit O'Connor before them. Though your whole post screams 'I've never spent much time in football dressing rooms or training pitches'.

Agree with all of that but just regarding the piece in bold, not being smart but have you dislocated your shoulder before? And if so, how many times?

[criostlinn]

The team that beats Dublin will win Sam.

The team that beats Mayo will win Sam

[iorras]

The team that beats Dublin will win Sam.

The team that beats Mayo will win Sam

The team that beats Kerry will win Sam

Well someone had to do it