2013 All Ireland Final: Mayo v Dublin

[Lar Naparka]

Anyone with that much strapping on a shoulder never looks fine. It's a minders woner he survived London and Donegal intact.

Sound man Syf; did I ever disagree with ya yet?
The odds were high that we'd have won every match to date without Cillian starting in any of them. I'd have given him a run okay just to keep him sharp or to bring him on if the going got tough at any stage but it was unwise to have him play every game.
Sure, there would still be risks if he only came on as a sub but they would be considerably less.
Right now, 3-3 against London or 3-4 against Donegal counts for sweet FA.

Hindsight is great alright. I don't recall you voicing your concerns in advance of the Donegal or Tyrone games though

Did I have to? Did the subject ever come up before now?
If you can find anything wrong with what I say, go ahead and point it out.
You seem to going back to your nasty, sneering self again.
Why don't you just cop on yourself for a change and act like a grown up?

[Farrandeelin]

Fecking hell lads, we either turn on the team we're playing against, or we find something to nit-pick among ourselves. Anyway, I don't think Cillian will start the next day. What about Andy Moran? Does he deserve to start, I know he's captain and all that, but he hasn't come to terms with the pace of the play at all yet, and could have (possibly should have) been taken off earlier against Tyrone.

[rosnarun]

its the managers job to be able to predict things we mortals can only see in hind sight.
horan generally has been good at that ,
his faith in certain players when people were calling for heads has been fully justified. 
i was wrong footed on Freeman and Cafferkey but other decisions that were criticized were Barrett Vaughan Seamus o se  andcarolan.
Horan has shown he is worth having faith and i for one am going to refrain from any Negativity from now on.
Lets just go with the Logo 'JAMES KNOWS BEST'

[FL/MAYO]

Fecking hell lads, we either turn on the team we're playing against, or we find something to nit-pick among ourselves. Anyway, I don't think Cillian will start the next day. What about Andy Moran? Does he deserve to start, I know he's captain and all that, but he hasn't come to terms with the pace of the play at all yet, and could have (possibly should have) been taken off earlier against Tyrone.

I read somewhere that Andy had an injury(other than the knee) on Sunday, if that's true then that might have been the reason for his poor play. If that injury clears up by Sept 22 he will probably start. 

[Syferus]

Fecking hell lads, we either turn on the team we're playing against, or we find something to nit-pick among ourselves. Anyway, I don't think Cillian will start the next day. What about Andy Moran? Does he deserve to start, I know he's captain and all that, but he hasn't come to terms with the pace of the play at all yet, and could have (possibly should have) been taken off earlier against Tyrone.

I read somewhere that Andy had an injury(other than the knee) on Sunday, if that's true then that might have been the reason for his poor play. If that injury clears up by Sept 22 he will probably start.

It's both things that effected him Sunday. The burst he had before the injury isn't back yet, Andy was five yards in front of his man almost every time a ball was sent in to him the last two years.

I think playing him in a more central role between the HF line and two FFs makes the most sense if you're going to play him because that burst won't be back until next season in all likelihood but he still has great vision for passes and setting up others. In COC's absence utilising Andy effectively could be the winning or losing of the AI final.

[whitey]

I'd say keep Andy in the lineup.  See how he intervened when that Tyrone buck was going to have a "word" with Freeman before he stepped up to take then penalty.  That's experience for you

If he's a yard off the pace play a different type of ball in to him

[moysider]

Anyone with that much strapping on a shoulder never looks fine. It's a minders woner he survived London and Donegal intact.

Sound man Syf; did I ever disagree with ya yet?
The odds were high that we'd have won every match to date without Cillian starting in any of them. I'd have given him a run okay just to keep him sharp or to bring him on if the going got tough at any stage but it was unwise to have him play every game.
Sure, there would still be risks if he only came on as a sub but they would be considerably less.
Right now, 3-3 against London or 3-4 against Donegal counts for sweet FA.

Completely disagree with you Lar. And if you think that I m out on a limb here check out McStay s column. I was relieved that I was not the only one about that has reservations after reading that. Maybe I think that McStay nailed it because I was of the same opinion but I m fed up all week of people just taking the positives out of that performance. We all know where that ends up. Bitterness over the winter.

It s alright being a Mayo fan and it s proper that we respect what Horan has achieved in such a short time time but we ve seen enough final misfires not to be just cheerleaders at this stage. Management got last year s final very wrong (not the players), yet you seem to have absolute faith in their judgement?

Consider this. Mayo News columnist noticed that 3 players that were on the periphery of the team last September were our saviours v Tyrone. Barrett, SOS and Freeman. You appear to not like changes but changes have improved us and Higgins has been moved  ( something I was always promoting but got rode on here for the suggestion) two years later, probably in wrong position. As a result Barrett has become a serious player for us. There are other players gatering splinters that could contribute but our natural conservativeness will probably mean that we spend the winter wondering what might have been.
The CoC substitution that I mentioned earlier. I prefer to not criticise individual players but please Lar!  You said that you would be ok with Endy replacing CoC. With respect to the lad I would not. He s played in an AI semi and final and only made a bad situation worse when he came on last day with a wildness that might be excused from a lad in his first year.  He won an U21 AI in 06 and has been nurtured since. That s not good enough unless you want to lose again? Dont think for a moment that that lack of composure and judgement is not seen as a weakness by opposition. McStay said 'I was disappointed with Enda Varley's contribution'. Enough said. That was a decision that set the alarm bells ringing - especially in light of Conroys contribution when he came on. Who made that call? I dunno.

From what I m listening around we re delighted to be back in final and getting a ticket more important than winning - everybody that doesnt usually bother with the game is convinced we ll win.

I m not. Tyrone showed others how to beat us, if we go out half baked again, like we did last year. I believe we have the players to win it but if selection is based on ' we ll stick with a winning team', then we will lose again. As my man McStay pointed out, only the excellent Freeman a clever Dillon performed in the forwards - and yet some believe that its too late to make changes!  I love the film 'Groundhog Day' but it reminds me of Croke Park in Sept. since 89. How many repeats is that? Apart from 04 and 06 the others were games that could have been won. And this shite talk of this team being different is just shite talk. The worst Tyrone team in a generation reminded us of the worst days of our life . This Mayo team will only be different if they win the damn thing. Horan knows that so lets stop eulogising and plamosing the man. He has big calls to make and he has to make them to give us a realistic chance.

You said that CoC returns against London and Donegal count for sweet FA now. Disappointed by that. I ve never seen anything like that and you just move on and replace him with Enda! Nobody has ever done what COC did in those games while being strapped up or fully fit. O Connor will start the final.

[Syferus]

I can see him lasting all of ten minutes in that case. Whatever mis-guided reasoning Horan could have to put off the surgery and maybe use him as an impact sub the case for starting him is very, very poor.

Where exactly do the concepts of player safety and quality of life come into it, Moy? It sounds like you're happy for a young man to run himself into the ground just because he's willing to.

He's dislocated his shoulder three times in 11 months. He was out all of five months the first time, then lasted about two months before he broke down again. Then he was out almost two months only to come back strapped up more tightly than a prisoner and he only lasted one full game, one half and a few minutes before he fell apart again. The next stage of that sequence doesn't take a genius to work out.

Do you get just how much a bad shoulder can haunt a player not just in his career but in his later life? This is a man of 21 being ground down and Mayo's management need to show an iota of cop on because the only smart, even humane, thing to do in this situation is for Horan to tell him it's over for the year and to focus on being as close to 100% as he can be for 2014.

This is one of those situations where 'win at all costs' needs to be put aside. Management teams have a duty of care to their players and on too many occasions they're willing to push situations that shouldn't be pushed in the pursuit of a small edge. COC's health is more important than anything he can offer Mayo next month.

[Sam2011]

Moy what would your team be for for the final?

I personally don't see any need for changes from 1- 9.
The forwards are a different kettle of fish then.
McLaughlin probably had one of his worst days in a Mayo shirt but still got on a fair amount  of breaking ball in the second half, therefore I believe he will be vital in the final. In addition, I don't think Horan has a strong enough argument in dropping him just because he had one bad game.
Higgins took awhile to get going but his speed will be vital in the final to either run at Kerry's tiring legs or to track young McCaffery. Also he can be put back in the corner when needed.
Dillon does indeed have a lot of question marks over him and it really is touch and go with him. Horan has stuck with him until now so I can't see him being dropped at this stage of the season. If he is not performing though he needs to be substituted quicker than usual.
Varley played himself out of the team the last day I think and I would be very surprised to see him start for the final. I always thought he was better coming on in the last 15 mins anyway.
Freeman's display the last day speaks for itself.
Andy, like Dillon has a lot of question marks over him. He had just below his knee strapped the last day. Again I think his leadership is vital and therefore we need him to start. If he's not producing the goods in the first half he needs to be substituted the first 5-10mins into the second half.

I expect for everyone to be left guessing about O'Connor until September 22nd. I would be very surprised to see him start but would expect to see him at some point in the second half.

All in all I would only see one change for the final with Conroy coming in for O'Connor.

Yes Horan is conservative but I think that he had been a little more adventurous this year which I think should be acknowledged. We could possibly have one game left with him as manager so why not get behind after all the joy he has brought the county over the past three years.

[macdanger2]

You appear to not like changes but changes have improved us and Higgins has been moved  ( something I was always promoting but got rode on here for the suggestion) two years later, probably in wrong position. As a result Barrett has become a serious player for us.

I think you give yourself too much credit moysider!! I'd say there are few enough Mayo supporters who haven't discussed moving Higgins to the half back line - not sure who you claim was riding you on here for it!! It would be foolish to stick him untried into a key position like 6 this late in the day though

[stephenite]

If CoC is to see game time in the final, I'd rather it was on an as needed basis as opposed to starting. If it's tight in the last 15-20 bring him in, as opposed to taking him off after the first 15-20

[ballinaman]

If CoC is to see game time in the final, I'd rather it was on an as needed basis as opposed to starting. If it's tight in the last 15-20 bring him in, as opposed to taking him off after the first 15-20

Agreed.
Put it this way, does anyone think his shoulder is now stronger after the repeat dislocation on Sunday than it was before? Odds have increased dramatically of it going again now, how do you reduce those odds? Reduce time on the pitch. Conroy in for him from the start, same team as Saturday then.

[Tubberman]

Anyone with that much strapping on a shoulder never looks fine. It's a minders woner he survived London and Donegal intact.

Sound man Syf; did I ever disagree with ya yet?
The odds were high that we'd have won every match to date without Cillian starting in any of them. I'd have given him a run okay just to keep him sharp or to bring him on if the going got tough at any stage but it was unwise to have him play every game.
Sure, there would still be risks if he only came on as a sub but they would be considerably less.
Right now, 3-3 against London or 3-4 against Donegal counts for sweet FA.

Hindsight is great alright. I don't recall you voicing your concerns in advance of the Donegal or Tyrone games though

Did I have to? Did the subject ever come up before now?
If you can find anything wrong with what I say, go ahead and point it out.
You seem to going back to your nasty, sneering self again.
Why don't you just cop on yourself for a change and act like a grown up?

Relax Lar will you. You're more than capable of arguing your point, don't get sensitive when someone asks you to explain it or back it up.
You said he shouldn't have been started against Tyrone, I simply asked why you didn't voice that concern beforehand.
I didn't see any higher risk before the Tyrone game than there was before the Donegal game, and there was nobody (that I can remember at least) saying he shouldn't have started that day. Obviously you weren't obliged to make that point in advance, but don't be surprised if someone says we can all be clever in hindsight.

Anyway, my feeling the next day would be that Cillian should not be started, and even bringing him on could be foolhardy.
It seems too big a gamble, both for the team and for Cillian himself.
But I've next to no knowledge of recovery times of shoulder dislocations, or the likelyhood of it re-occuring and what further damage that could do. So I'll leave that to the Mayo medical team, management team and Cillian himself.

[Greenabovethered]

If O'Connor could master the art of popping that shoulder back in like Martin Riggs in Leathal Weapon he'd be sorted.

On a more serious note, Andy was beaten to at least 3 balls despite being favourite when the ball was kicked. Although his presence on the teams and experience is invaluable and he will start. Varley who I've always had my doubts over, maybe it's his style of kicking, had a shocker. On watching it again he had 3 bad wides, turned over primary possession cheaply inside the 21 at least twice and that missed free at the end summed him up.

After reading Dara O'Shea's piece during the week, I think we'd be better off meeting Dublin that Kerry in the final. Despite Dublin being a superior team, I'd hope that we'd have no fear of them as we would have of seeing the Kerry jersey again.

[Tubberman]

If O'Connor could master the art of popping that shoulder back in like Martin Riggs in Leathal Weapon he'd be sorted.

On a more serious note, Andy was beaten to at least 3 balls despite being favourite when the ball was kicked. Although his presence on the teams and experience is invaluable and he will start. Varley who I've always had my doubts over, maybe it's his style of kicking, had a shocker. On watching it again he had 3 bad wides, turned over primary possession cheaply inside the 21 at least twice and that missed free at the end summed him up.

After reading Dara O'Shea's piece during the week, I think we'd be better off meeting Dublin that Kerry in the final. Despite Dublin being a superior team, I'd hope that we'd have no fear of them as we would have of seeing the Kerry jersey again.

I think I'd prefer Kerry. Very few of this team played against Kerry in 04 or 06 - Dillon, Moran, Higgins? So there shouldn't be a sense of dread when they see the Kerry jersey.
We'd have a better chance of running Kerry ragged than we would the Dubs - they seem to be as fit as us, and probably have as much if not more pace in their team.