April Jones abduction

[LeoMc]

In all the calls for harsher sentances there still has to be a step change between the sentances for sexual offences and those for murder otherwise there is an element of "May as well be hug for a sheep as a lamb"
By treating the differing offences with the same severity there is a risk that the offender (a more appropriate term would be un-printable) will realise that murder will not increase the punishment but will reduce the risk of getting caught.

Murder should mean a life sentance (no parole) whilst Sexual offence mean should mean castration.

[Milltown Row2]

All of your explanations will mean fook all to the families of the kids that will never see them watch tv, play in the street, eat their dinners or further their education, get married, have their own kids!! All taken by the lowest scum every to be formed by, well whoever.

What would make you think that I haven't been affected in a similar way?
Unfortunately nothing that is handed down as punishment to child murderers will ever bring back loved ones. It's not my position to explain what motivates such people to do such acts. There are hundreds of thousands of families across the world whose children have disappeared who have been abused, murdered, human trafficked, forced into slavery etc. I'm sure many of us are thankful that they are not in such a position to face the emotions that go with it. There is plenty of evil in the world, some universally recognised as such and others who commit evil while portraying themselves as saints. There but for the grace of God.

So to put it bluntly, they are still living a life, a life this little girl never got a chance to have

True. But to some in differing circumstances not all life is worth living for.

I've never stated you or anyone on here has been affected by things such as this, my problem is with the Judical system, they keep letting these guys out after they have done some terrible crimes, by your own post these people keep re-offending and won't be rehabilitated.

There is plenty wrong with the judicial system on many different levels too IMHO - I've moaned often enough about it. However "these people keep re-offending and won't be rehabilitated" is a sweeping blanket statement - some sex offenders do reform themselves while in prison and don't offend again upon release (however such cases don't tend to end up in the media as they don't tend to make good stories that either sell papers or bring in ratings), though it is worth saying that such offenders tend to be among the hardest to rehabilitate. The case of Colin Hatch was one that took place over the 80's & early 90's - two decades on, research into profiling such criminals has got better and such risks in the community are now reduced.

There is plenty of evil in this world no doubt but the evil that has happened in Wales and elsewhere like that can be stopped. Life for life in those circumstances or as I posted before some rotten hole away da fook from society, and if the libs complain, let them look after them.

That's just my view

You're going to have to then show that the punishment you propose would have stopped the incident in question. Beyond a certain point, increasing the harshness of a punishment or penalty does very little to deter someone committing a crime. The death penalty in much of the United States hasn't done much to reduce murder rates there (a classic example). Harsh punishments for drug smugglers in south-east Asia doesn't deter quite a few westerners into getting involved for the money. Going back to my speeding analogy - if you are caught and hit with a £60 fine, more than likely that for the next couple of weeks you might be cautious but sooner or later you'll fall back into the previous habits. However if you get hit with three £60 fines in the space of a month, then your caution with regard to your speed is likely to last more than a couple of weeks after the third time because you've been hit by the realisation that there is now an increased risk of you being caught speeding when you're doing so and the fines will start to add up. Compare that to say being hit with a £180 fine for only one speeding fine - it is a harsher punishment than £60 but if the perceived risk of getting caught again is low i.e. the same as it was before, the chances of reforming habits is less likely to happen compared to getting hit with three £60 fines. Therefore my point and opinion is that increasing the chances of someone getting caught doing an offence - provided that the expected punishment is deemed to be punitive enough - is generally more effective that increasing the expected harshness of the sentence but where no extra effort is made to increase the chances of someone caught doing the offence. It has nothing to do with "libs", conservatism, socialism, authoritarianism, libertarianism etc. it is about reducing rates of crime in communities which I would dare say most people would welcome as a positive. Clearly the prevention is better than dealing with the aftermath. From what I've read about Mark Bridger's profile in the media, he doesn't appear to have been on a sex-offenders register, been convicted in the past of any related offence and indeed has children of his own a couple of whom played with April Jones in the past. That doesn't fit classic descriptions of a child murderer or molester to me so it's difficult to see how standard procedures such as the sex offenders register would work there. Maybe if he is charged with murder more details of his background will come out. Sometimes these incidents can come out of nowhere. Unfortunately almost nothing is 100% preventable.

It may not be preventable but that person won't be able to commit any more crimes, so one less pervert to worry about. As for Bridger, he may not be the classic fit though we don't really know yet.

Again you put up a descriptive post with plenty of good advice but unless you find a cure for this then I'd rather they were out of sight forever

[Tony Baloney]

If that Louis Theroux show was anything to go by, the thinking is the habitual sex offenders cannot be cured. The approach that facility took was that these fellas were locked up for the rest of their days as they were essentially a lost cause. An expensive solution.

[Mentalman]

If that Louis Theroux show was anything to go by, the thinking is the habitual sex offenders cannot be cured. The approach that facility took was that these fellas were locked up for the rest of their days as they were essentially a lost cause. An expensive solution.

It appears paedophilia is not treatable or curable, there's increasing evidence that would the equivalent of trying to cure someone of heterosexuality for instance. I don't know what the medical evidence is for chemical castration as a way of removing these drives, as I imagine that research would be highly controversial, but surely, given everything written above, it would be worth persuing, and I imagine there would volunteers for altruistic (genuinely wanting to be cured) and non-altruistic (wanting to be released early) reasons.

[Mentalman]

If that Louis Theroux show was anything to go by, the thinking is the habitual sex offenders cannot be cured. The approach that facility took was that these fellas were locked up for the rest of their days as they were essentially a lost cause. An expensive solution.

It appears paedophilia is not treatable or curable, there's increasing evidence that would the equivalent of trying to cure someone of heterosexuality for instance. I don't know what the medical evidence is for chemical castration as a way of removing these drives, as I imagine that research would be highly controversial, but surely, given everything written above, it would be worth persuing, and I imagine there would volunteers for altruistic (genuinely wanting to be cured) and non-altruistic (wanting to be released early) reasons.

Those convicted of paedophilia are difficult to reform to prevent reoffending. Not impossible but quite low which it's why it's seen that such prisoners are a lost cause as traditional prison rehabilitation techniques have little effect. Essentially they have a form of psychological addiction that is deemed threatening to others, some through genetics, others by environmental factors in a similar fashion to spouse abuse where the offender wants to break clean but just can't.

In terms of chemical castration, my reading of it is that there is still some way for it to go before it could be considered for widespread use especially as some side effects to treatment have been noticed, and while those that follow the course have a very high rate of not reoffending, it is not quite 100%. A quick google throws up some interesting articles about it. Certainly as a voluntary programme it should be offered.

Did some reading there myself, very interesting stuff. Looks, to me anyway, like it should offered voluntarily as you mentioned. It may not be 100%, but it's a lot higher than just prison alone, or even prison and psychological help. Then there's also cost reductions etc. If there is a wide enough uptake, and the participants studied, it may be possible to improve the drugs and outcomes, for the criminals and society in general.

[Asal Mor]

Good posting Fionntamhnach. Interesting stuff. I'm sure you're right that some sex offenders would like to stop but can't stop themselves. I have sympathy for them and imagine they would be (reluctantly) willing to be castrated.

I don't agree that castration should be voluntary though, not for those who commit serious sexual offences or are repeat offenders. I know human rights laws would probably prevent castration being intoduced on anything other than a voluntary basis but most of us would ask, why not? It seems a reasonable punishment for serious sex crimes and should allow some offenders at least to be safely released into society.

Involuntary chemical castration would be very difficult and expensive to enforce so physical castration would be the best solution.

[ludermor]

No MR2, in fairness I think HS meant why send them off to an island in the North Sea, to a sort of commune for child killers and abusers, so they can kick each other to death.

But is it better to send them to a nice comfy prison for a few years where they can further their education, watch as much TV as they want, use the Gym, have a pretty high quality menu for meal times, use the internet etc instead of being sent to somewhere that would be hell on earth, which is what they deserve really.

Not sure about the high quality menu. A friend of mine did 6 months in Castlerea and he said the food was sh!te.

I agree with Leo Mc. Castration should be used as part of the punishment for serious sex offences. It's logical and a real punishment / deterrent. We're too soft on these people - excuse the lame pun.

casteration doesnt take away the fantasy element of the 'event', so wont ease the actual numbers or cause or deterrent. . if really sick f**kers have this urge, they will do it with no balls and will destroy kids/girls with any implement that wil turn them on with no feelings for the person they are hurting.

[Asal Mor]

That's not what I've read ludermor. Castration has been shown to work with very low rates for re-offending. A 1963 study in Germany of over 1,000 offenders showed a 2% re-offense rate for castrated offenders and an 80 % re-offense rate for non-castrated offenders. Apparently the body doesn't produce sex cells anymore so they'd probably lose interest in their old fantasies, giving them a shot at some sort of a decent life. No more sex, but they could still go to Croke Park and watch Joe Canning play, which is often better anyway.

I was reading also that castrated men don't suffer from male-pattern baldness and have an increased life expectancy of 14 years too. So it's not all bad.

[seafoid]

Great post by fionntamhnach. The killing of prisoners by other inmates is abhorrent. They are supposed to be protected. As a society we don't know what to do about paedophilia. Middle class paedophiles often get away with it.  We also have very inconsistent attitudes to kids, especially when they are poor. . We don't care about childhood trauma in our underclass- the kids of the poorest families in south hill in Limerick will be brutalised throughout their youth and graduate as drug gang members and die young . But that problem is too complex. Tabloid culture prefers to focus on perverts.

[Tony Baloney]

If that Louis Theroux show was anything to go by, the thinking is the habitual sex offenders cannot be cured. The approach that facility took was that these fellas were locked up for the rest of their days as they were essentially a lost cause. An expensive solution.

It appears paedophilia is not treatable or curable, there's increasing evidence that would the equivalent of trying to cure someone of heterosexuality for instance. I don't know what the medical evidence is for chemical castration as a way of removing these drives, as I imagine that research would be highly controversial, but surely, given everything written above, it would be worth persuing, and I imagine there would volunteers for altruistic (genuinely wanting to be cured) and non-altruistic (wanting to be released early) reasons.

Those convicted of paedophilia are difficult to reform to prevent reoffending. Not impossible but quite low which it's why it's seen that such prisoners are a lost cause as traditional prison rehabilitation techniques have little effect. Essentially they have a form of psychological addiction that is deemed threatening to others, some through genetics, others by environmental factors in a similar fashion to spouse abuse where the offender wants to break clean but just can't.

In terms of chemical castration, my reading of it is that there is still some way for it to go before it could be considered for widespread use especially as some side effects to treatment have been noticed, and while those that follow the course have a very high rate of not reoffending, it is not quite 100%. A quick google throws up some interesting articles about it. Certainly as a voluntary programme it should be offered.

Turkey and Christmas springs to mind.

[mylestheslasher]

Great post by fionntamhnach. The killing of prisoners by other inmates is abhorrent. They are supposed to be protected. As a society we don't know what to do about paedophilia. Middle class paedophiles often get away with it.  We also have very inconsistent attitudes to kids, especially when they are poor. . We don't care about childhood trauma in our underclass- the kids of the poorest families in south hill in Limerick will be brutalised throughout their youth and graduate as drug gang members and die young . But that problem is too complex. Tabloid culture prefers to focus on perverts.

I'm not sure who this "we" is that you are speaking on behalf of Seafoid. I would hazard a guess that if you carried out an opinion poll on what to do with scumbags  that rape and/or kill children that you would have a very clear answer, somewhere between life (as in your whole life) in jail or execution.

Again, your speaking on behalf of what people think of the children of the poor, i'm fairly sure people would be sorry for those kids and would want intervention for them but our government prefers to pay billions to banks than to other the vulnerable. And by the way, the vunerable are not just he poor. There are plenty of people in the middle classes who are effectively poor now, getting treated like dirt in hospitals, contemplating suicide as they can't make ends meet,

Your last sentence is just bullshit.

[seafoid]

Great post by fionntamhnach. The killing of prisoners by other inmates is abhorrent. They are supposed to be protected. As a society we don't know what to do about paedophilia. Middle class paedophiles often get away with it.  We also have very inconsistent attitudes to kids, especially when they are poor. . We don't care about childhood trauma in our underclass- the kids of the poorest families in south hill in Limerick will be brutalised throughout their youth and graduate as drug gang members and die young . But that problem is too complex. Tabloid culture prefers to focus on perverts.

I'm not sure who this "we" is that you are speaking on behalf of Seafoid. I would hazard a guess that if you carried out an opinion poll on what to do with scumbags  that rape and/or kill children that you would have a very clear answer, somewhere between life (as in your whole life) in jail or execution.

Again, your speaking on behalf of what people think of the children of the poor, i'm fairly sure people would be sorry for those kids and would want intervention for them but our government prefers to pay billions to banks than to other the vulnerable. And by the way, the vunerable are not just he poor. There are plenty of people in the middle classes who are effectively poor now, getting treated like dirt in hospitals, contemplating suicide as they can't make ends meet,

Your last sentence is just bullshit.

We don't tend to have opinion polls on what to do with criminals, Myles. If we did we'd probably still have public executions. We have a justice system instead. It isn't particularly efficient.

You are right about the middle classes.

There are many different kinds of sc**bag, really. Some of them get more heat than others.
I don't think it is right for anyone to be killed in prison. 

[Milltown Row2]

Look some decent posts and while most have a view that prevention is the best solution, it is as someone said already (or close to) trying to change someone who's gay into being straight, it's impossible, and while there is hardship in the working class or unemployed classes it doesn't make people perverts, it's just as prevalent in upper classes as lower, being a pervert doesn't come with being poor

[Square Ball]

So Mark Bridger has been charged with murder, terrible news indeed and my heart goes out to the parents. please god they find her body.

if guilty I hope the evil bastard rots in prison for life under conditions fit for him, not a comfortable cell with all the mod cons

[Milltown Row2]

So Mark Bridger has been charged with murder, terrible news indeed and my heart goes out to the parents. please god they find her body.

if guilty I hope the evil b**tard rots in prison for life under conditions fit for him, not a comfortable cell with all the mod cons

Could think of worse but don't want to annoy the PC crowd on here