Household Charge Boycott

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.

FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.

Has a new country sprouted wings in the last week, never heard of a people called the southern Irish before, unless you mean Munster people.

[Declan]

Two interesting letters in today's times - This first lad sounds like a character

Sir, – I'm in my 70s, but that's just the natural course of events. I'm epileptic, arthritic and take heart medication; these things too are no one's fault. I get along adequately on my State pension of around €230 a week. I live, alone and content, in a house I built myself – I mean with my own hands – and while it may not be a proper "house" by some people's standards, it suits me very well.

Apart from electricity and the telephone, both of which I pay for, I have no "services" that I don't provide for myself. I am far beyond the reach of dustcarts. I do have a travel pass; but the only public transport available to me is the co-opted school bus (cheers, Paddy, the best bus driver that ever was) to town on Fridays. A while back there was a mountain fire which came close to burning me out but, after some hours, I managed – alone – to steer it away. Then, too late, the fire brigade came; though I myself had not called it. Later, I got a bill for its "services". More recently I had occasion to call – for the first time in my life and late at night (and I the holder of a medical card) – an ambulance. I had fallen, and cracked my head and was unable to stop the bleeding. The ambulance took me 40 miles to Bantry hospital for six stitches, and I got a bill for the journey.

I wish to make it clear that I am not complaining. Such public services as there are purported to be for the likes of people who need them are only a joke in the style of Flann O'Brien, God rest him. We don't take them seriously enough to complain.

They wish to meter my water? They'll have to meter the stream that flows past, or the rain, so.

For what, then, am I now supposed to pay a "household charge"? Well, I will not. I'll go to jail first. The food will be worse than I'm used to, but I suppose the cell will be warm. – Yours, etc,

HENRY VAN RAAT,
Allihies, Beara, Co Cork.

Can't Pay Won't Pay' gathers pace
A chara, – I attended a meeting in the Yard in Falcarragh, Co Donegal, on December 10th. This meeting was called by the Can't Pay Won't pay campaign. It is gathering momentum as people begin to realise there is a very real likelihood that the only thing in their pockets from now on will be the jingle of small change.

If this thought sinks in sooner rather than later, the "no pay" campaign should take on juggernaut proportions.

I saw people there who I would suspect had never been to such an event before. This is because people are fearful of what lies ahead, and are extremely angry as it becomes clear what these taxes (household, septic tank and water) are really about. It is not about upgrading or creating better services, which should be the case. They are about the unnecessary rewarding to the full of very wealthy investors who took chances on quadrupling their money in the booming Irish building bubble and lost.

People are swallowing tablets at an alarming rate (anti-depressants) and are trying to cope with the stress of mounting bills.

Minister for the Environment Phil Hogan, on introducing the household charge, described it as a mere palatable €2 per week. It's very easy for him to count so little on €2 (he's on €160,000-plus a year).

Invitations to attend the meeting went out to all the local politicians to give them a chance to explain their stance on these charges. Pearse Doherty was the only TD to attend, along with Independent councillor John Cambell. The members of the austerity parties who were invited didn't reply, never mind attend. But it was well noted by the crowd present.

Michael McDowell, when he was justice minister, paid an astronomical price using taxpayers' money for a prison site. They'd better start building quick, because there won't be enough prison space for all the poor people who cannot pay these indiscriminate and unfair taxes. – Is mise,

J WOODS,
Gort an Choirce,
Dun nGall.

It's interesting alright that sometimes the law of unintended consequences can have - Although it does seem a relatively small amount  it just may be the cause that  does actually motivate the great unwashed? 

[Nally Stand]

Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.

FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.

Has a new country sprouted wings in the last week, never heard of a people called the southern Irish before, unless you mean Munster people.

Maybe you would prefer be called western british then?

[sheamy]

Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.

FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.

Has a new country sprouted wings in the last week, never heard of a people called the southern Irish before, unless you mean Munster people.

You on the eggnog again chap? You should seriously consider the 'off the booze' campaign for Jan. It's genius. You get a sponsor form and ask yer mates to give you money for NOT going on the lash. Truly a revolutionary idea.

[muppet]

Since the crisis began we have seen taxes on workers rise by up to 9%. We have seen a pension levy of 7% put on public workers and we have seen an precedented tax on capital in the form of the 0.6% tax on private pensions. All of this was to pour money into broken banks.

However Joe Higgins and his cronies go to war on a €100 annual charge to pay for local services? If he had gone to war on any of the above measures he might have got some support from those who are actually paying the bills in this country.

IMHO he doesn't want that support. That would be a fight between the people (all of the people) and the proxy EU Government. Higgins seems to want a fight along different lines. His target support are those who pay nothing into the coffers only and this will offend those who do pay into the coffers. He wants a war between receivers and contributors and specifically not between workers and those in power.

Sinn Féin's default position is to join any anti-establishment event so seeing O'Snodaigh involved is no surprise. But it is idiotic for a party pretending to want the responsibility of power. Will O'Snodaigh have the support of Sinn Féin in jail? Will Sinn Féin then support anyone who defaults on any tax they themselves introduce? Either they are a responsible political party or they are not.

Back to Higgins. There is a very sinister element to his strategy. There would be considerable appetite amongst the real taxpayers (workers) for action but Higgins is deliberately mounting his protest against a tax that most workers will see as the least evil, like I said, he doesn't want our support. What he does want is the highest possible profile.

[AQMP]

I already pay €200 a year for a "holiday home" and get feck all in return.  At least in de Nort you get services in return for your rates.

[haze]

Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.

FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.

Southern Irish?? Any pride?? A contender for patronising post of the year. Well done - keep up the good work.

Yes its an unfair tax (as is any property tax) but equally unfair is the €12 additional a month people with chronic illnesses must pay to receive their prescriptions (bringing the total to €1584 annually). Where is their revolution over that? 

I'd rather not take advice from people like Mick Wallace.

[haze]

Since the crisis began we have seen taxes on workers rise by up to 9%. We have seen a pension levy of 7% put on public workers and we have seen an precedented tax on capital in the form of the 0.6% tax on private pensions. All of this was to pore money into broken banks.

However Joe Higgins and his cronies go to war on a €100 annual charge to pay for local services? If he had gone to war on any of the above measures he might have got some support from those who are actually paying the bills in this country.

IMHO he doesn't want that support. That would be a fight between the people (all of the people) and the proxy EU Government. Higgins seems to want a fight along different lines. His target support are those who pay nothing into the coffers only and this will offend those who do pay into the coffers. He wants a war between receivers and contributors and specifically not between workers and those in power.

Sinn Féin default position is to join any anti-establishment event so seeing O'Snodaigh involved is no surprise. But it is idiotic for a party pretending to want the responsibility of power. Will O'Snodaigh have the support of Sinn Féin in jail? Will Sinn Féin then support anyone who defaults on any tax they themselves introduce? Either they are a responsible political party or they are not.

Back to Higgins. There is a very sinister element to his strategy. There would be considerable appetite amongst the real taxpayers (workers) for action but Higgins is deliberately mounting his protest against a tax that most workers will see as the least evil, like I said, he doesn't want our support. What he does want is the highest possible profile.

Excellent post.

[Ulick]

Since the crisis began we have seen taxes on workers rise by up to 9%. We have seen a pension levy of 7% put on public workers and we have seen an precedented tax on capital in the form of the 0.6% tax on private pensions. All of this was to pore money into broken banks.

However Joe Higgins and his cronies go to war on a €100 annual charge to pay for local services? If he had gone to war on any of the above measures he might have got some support from those who are actually paying the bills in this country.

IMHO he doesn't want that support. That would be a fight between the people (all of the people) and the proxy EU Government. Higgins seems to want a fight along different lines. His target support are those who pay nothing into the coffers only and this will offend those who do pay into the coffers. He wants a war between receivers and contributors and specifically not between workers and those in power.

Sinn Féin default position is to join any anti-establishment event so seeing O'Snodaigh involved is no surprise. But it is idiotic for a party pretending to want the responsibility of power. Will O'Snodaigh have the support of Sinn Féin in jail? Will Sinn Féin then support anyone who defaults on any tax they themselves introduce? Either they are a responsible political party or they are not.

Back to Higgins. There is a very sinister element to his strategy. There would be considerable appetite amongst the real taxpayers (workers) for action but Higgins is deliberately mounting his protest against a tax that most workers will see as the least evil, like I said, he doesn't want our support. What he does want is the highest possible profile.

Muppet, seriously now, how can you defend a measure which taxes the household on €20,000 and one on €20,000,000 at the same rate? Also, you say it's to pay for "services" - perhaps you would like to outline exactly what these services are? My relations in Wexford put in their own water supply and septic tanks (which they have also recently been charged for). They already pay to have their rubbish taken away. They live miles from the nearest town, have to fix the potholes in the roads themselves as well as cut the hedgerows. What exactly are they going to get for this €100 levy?

[muppet]

Muppet, seriously now, how can you defend a measure which taxes the household on €20,000 and one on €20,000,000 at the same rate? Also, you say it's to pay for "services" - perhaps you would like to outline exactly what these services are? My relations in Wexford put in their own water supply and septic tanks (which they have also recently been charged for). They already pay to have their rubbish taken away. They live miles from the nearest town, have to fix the potholes in the roads themselves as well as cut the hedgerows. What exactly are they going to get for this €100 levy?

Ulick, where did I defend the charge?

[Ulick]

Yes its an unfair tax (as is any property tax) but equally unfair is the €12 additional a month people with chronic illnesses must pay to receive their prescriptions (bringing the total to €1584 annually). Where is their revolution over that? 

Eh, why is a property tax unfair?

A property tax will normally make some discrimination between the value of the property. This tax does not do that and so cannot justifiably be called a property tax.With this, the tax burden is moved from the rich to the poor - there being more poor household than there are rich. Instead of the wealthy paying according to their means or the value of their property they pay vastly proportionally less amount than those on lower incomes i.e.  for a household €20000 take home pay this represents .005% of their income where are for a household on €100000 it .001% of their income. The nearest I can compare this to is Thatcher's Poll Tax in the '80s and look how that ended up.

[Ulick]

Ulick, where did I defend the charge?

Is lambasting those who oppose it not the same thing?

[muppet]

Ulick, where did I defend the charge?

Is lambasting those who oppose it not the same thing?

On your political planet maybe.

[Bensars]

Some people are calling it unfair as different home values are incomes are being trated identically.

Seems to be the popular view that this is only for the first year or two to get a system  up and running and get households registered. Wait then for it to become more like the rates system in the north with massive increases in rates.

Those objecting now at no differentiation will also be objecting then when it does change

[haze]

Yes its an unfair tax (as is any property tax) but equally unfair is the €12 additional a month people with chronic illnesses must pay to receive their prescriptions (bringing the total to €1584 annually). Where is their revolution over that? 

Eh, why is a property tax unfair?

A property tax will normally make some discrimination between the value of the property. This tax does not do that and so cannot justifiably be called a property tax.With this, the tax burden is moved from the rich to the poor - there being more poor household than there are rich. Instead of the wealthy paying according to their means or the value of their property they pay vastly proportionally less amount than those on lower incomes i.e.  for a household €20000 take home pay this represents .005% of their income where are for a household on €100000 it .001% of their income. The nearest I can compare this to is Thatcher's Poll Tax in the '80s and look how that ended up.

I should have clarified that I think the implementation of a property tax in Ireland will be unfair rather than the actual concept. A property tax as I understand its implementation in Ireland, will not give any consideration to a household's ability to pay (ie their income), which is quite similar to your illustration above of how the houselhold charge disproportionately burdens taxpayers.
It will be based on the valuation that is applied by an external valuer. Now given the disparties that exist in property prices throughout the county I cannot envisage a methodology that willl fairly apply this tax. The unemployed couple who live in a big house in the country (or a small house in Dublin) will have a tax levied on them which will potentially be a lot greater than the €100 household charge. I think this is a much greater injustice. The property buble has cause enough undue hardship on hundreds of thousands of Irish people - considering this I don't think the implementation of a property tax is the "fairest" way to widen our tax base.

But my original point still stands, irresponsible of the td's to adapt such a stance. If they dont want to pay it then thats their own business, however in encouraging non payment they potentially have set a dangerous precedent.