Household Charge Boycott

[armaghniac]

I have to say, that's a great deal, actually, and would be first in the queue to pay, if only. . .
If only I hadn't to pay car tax, again to be raised; if I hadn't to pay for a television licence; if I hadn't to pay for electricity, gas, refuse collection and tolls on the road.
If I didn't have to pay income tax; if I didn't have to pay a plastic bag levy; if I didn't have to pay car and house insurance.
If I didn't have to pay a health levy; if I didn't have to pay for my children's education; if I wasn't screwed with VAT on everything, bar the air I breathe.
If I didn't have to pay for health cover; if I didn't have to pay the levy for the wealthy and the banks who poisoned this nation.
If I didn't have to buy petrol; if I didn't have to feed four children; if I didn't have to pay for Quinn's demise.
You see, the €2, as Enda contemptuously dismissed it, is just the tip of the iceberg.

This kind of thing appears all the time and not only in letters to the newspapers. The point is that taxation only acounts for about two thirds of government expenditure and whatever amount of tax you are paying you have not already paid for everything.

I worked 30 years in the prison service and have not the slightest fear of entering one of its prisons rather than pay money on my house to facilitate a €35,000 rise for an adviser of the Taoiseach, who was already on an eye-watering salary.

This guy writing to the paper was from the prison service, probably the single most overpaid section of the public service. The gap between Irish salaries and general European ones is highest for this category. Even within the public service the average salary in the prison service was similar to that in third level education, although the latter literally does have brain surgeons and rocket scientists and well educated people generally.

Oh god, I forgot the wallop that they took for my stamp duty. Where was I?
Oh yes. Sorry -- but I won't be paying.
On a wet November's morning, two years ago, Phil Hogan refused point blank to take a voluntary cut from his wages, citing personal circumstances.
Mine are outlined above. I won't pay. I worked 30 years in the prison service and have not the slightest fear of entering one of its prisons rather than pay money on my house to facilitate a €35,000 rise for an adviser of the Taoiseach, who was already on an eye-watering salary.

[Ulick]

I presume SF's "support" will consist of issuing statements condemning the Govt for fining someone who doesnt pay ?
That will be a great help at the oul' Supermarket check out 
On the main issue - why didnt the 9 potential lawbreaking lawmakers get het up about the 2% rise in VAT which will hit everyone , esp low income groups , not just property owners ?
Average cost per family of the VAT rise estimated at 5/600 per year .

They remind me of a statement someone once made about some politician or other ( EG or someone will no doubt verify the names involved  )  - "A shiver looking for a spine to run up"

Presumably because they can't make a choice on whether to pay the extra VAT?

[Ulick]

Ulick, where did I defend the charge?

Is lambasting those who oppose it not the same thing?

On your political planet maybe.

So then why are you attacking those who oppose the Household Charge and a thread about em... the Household Charge, if you are not defending the Household Charge? 

Did you even read my post at all before attacking me?

I explained thoroughly why I was attacking Higgins & co. The household tax is incidental, I would rather pay no tax and am not supporting paying more.

If Higgins was taking a moral stand against austerity he would have done it for any of the far more damaging litany of other measures that have already been introduced. Or he would have started his protest when the first €1 was bailed into the banks. He didn't do it for those issues but he is doing it for this issue. Why is that?

I didn't attack you, I asked you a question regarding local "services" provision, though I accept that on your political planet that may amount to the same thing.

[Declan]

I take your point. But as far as I am concerned TDs have the right and the obligation to protest, in a lawful manner against any perceived unjust law. But until such time as a majority of the Dáil vote to scrap said law then they are under a public duty, as legislators, to uphold the law.

Where do you draw the line? What about Ming's crusade to legislate for cannabis usage. He believed that was fundementally wrong. I know he has dropped this stance now but had he the right to break the law in his fondness for the auld grass?

Yep I know but history is littered with people taking stands against unjust legislation. As you said where do you draw the line? In the bould Ming's case if he felt that strongly about it I'd have backed his decision to keep smoking it myself. I know you can't directly  compare it to say the civil rights movement in the 50s and 60s but to me the principle is the same.

Muppet - That's the issue with Joe I think - I don't actually think it's an ideological decision not to pay for services I think it's an ideological/political decision to keep his "constituency" happy. If that means they don't have to pay it so be it but I don't think that's the reasoning behind it - Subtle difference maybe

[muppet]

Ulick, where did I defend the charge?

Is lambasting those who oppose it not the same thing?

On your political planet maybe.

So then why are you attacking those who oppose the Household Charge and a thread about em... the Household Charge, if you are not defending the Household Charge? 

Did you even read my post at all before attacking me?

I explained thoroughly why I was attacking Higgins & co. The household tax is incidental, I would rather pay no tax and am not supporting paying more.

If Higgins was taking a moral stand against austerity he would have done it for any of the far more damaging litany of other measures that have already been introduced. Or he would have started his protest when the first €1 was bailed into the banks. He didn't do it for those issues but he is doing it for this issue. Why is that?

I didn't attack you, I asked you a question regarding local "services" provision, though I accept that on your political planet that may amount to the same thing.

You asked me why I had attacked those who opposed the household charge. That was after asking me why I defended the household charge. Both questions completely missed the point of my post. But you were trying to steer my argument somewhere that suited you.

I oppose the boycott. Lambasting those organising the boycott is not supporting the tax and no it is not the same thing, except on your planet. See?

[Declan]

More TDs pledge to boycott household charge
Friday, December 16, 2011 - 02:44 PM

The number of TDs boycotting the new household charge has risen to 18 today.

The Government announced in the Budget that a new household charge of €100 would come into effect in January.

Those who fail to pay it by March face a fine of up to €2,500.

Nine TDs, including Joe Higgins, Clare Daly and Luke 'Ming' Flanagan launched a campaign yesterday, calling on the public to refuse to pay the tax - and any fines incurred.

Now today, seven Sinn Féin TDs have joined in on the campaign and say they too will not pay the charge.

"It is a bid decision, I don't genuinely believe that there will be jail time," said Donegal TD Pearse Doherty.

"The Government are going to introduce new legislation next year which will deduct fines at sources, but there is serious penalties and serious fines.

"I'm not asking people to follow my lead here in this, this is a personal decision, and anybody who decides not to pay the charge needs to be fully aware of the consequences.


Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/more-tds-pledge-to-boycott-household-charge-532530.html#ixzz1giU30f2d

[Ulick]

Ulick, where did I defend the charge?

Is lambasting those who oppose it not the same thing?

On your political planet maybe.

So then why are you attacking those who oppose the Household Charge and a thread about em... the Household Charge, if you are not defending the Household Charge? 

Did you even read my post at all before attacking me?

I explained thoroughly why I was attacking Higgins & co. The household tax is incidental, I would rather pay no tax and am not supporting paying more.

If Higgins was taking a moral stand against austerity he would have done it for any of the far more damaging litany of other measures that have already been introduced. Or he would have started his protest when the first €1 was bailed into the banks. He didn't do it for those issues but he is doing it for this issue. Why is that?

I didn't attack you, I asked you a question regarding local "services" provision, though I accept that on your political planet that may amount to the same thing.

You asked me why I had attacked those who opposed the household charge. That was after asking me why I defended the household charge. Both questions completely missed the point of my post. But you were trying to steer my argument somewhere that suited you.

I oppose the boycott. Lambasting those organising the boycott is not supporting the tax and no it is not the same thing, except on your planet. See?

I asked you in my first post to outline the local services you were talking about - perhaps you didn't read it? I'm also at a loss to figure out where I attacked you. Are you going to let the rest of us in on planet Muppets rule book so we can play nice in future?

[muppet]

I asked you in my first post to outline the local services you were talking about - perhaps you didn't read it? I'm also at a loss to figure out where I attacked you. Are you going to let the rest of us in on planet Muppets rule book so we can play nice in future?

I'm sure you can google the activities of any local council yourself.

But I'll mention one service. They each have an assembly of remunerated local representatives. I would suggest all councillors associated with those boycotters have their remuneration stopped immediately.

[Rossfan]

More TDs pledge to boycott household charge
Friday, December 16, 2011 - 02:44 PM

The number of TDs boycotting the new household charge has risen to 18 today.

The Government announced in the Budget that a new household charge of €100 would come into effect in January.

Those who fail to pay it by March face a fine of up to €2,500.

Nine TDs, including Joe Higgins, Clare Daly and Luke 'Ming' Flanagan launched a campaign yesterday, calling on the public to refuse to pay the tax - and any fines incurred.

Now today, seven Sinn Féin TDs have joined in on the campaign and say they too will not pay the charge.

"It is a bid decision, I don't genuinely believe that there will be jail time," said Donegal TD Pearse Doherty.

"The Government are going to introduce new legislation next year which will deduct fines at sources, but there is serious penalties and serious fines.

"I'm not asking people to follow my lead here in this, this is a personal decision, and anybody who decides not to pay the charge needs to be fully aware of the consequences.


Read more: http://www.examiner.ie/breakingnews/ireland/more-tds-pledge-to-boycott-household-charge-532530.html#ixzz1giU30f2d

So when can we expect them to resign their seats in the Dáil so they can be just private citizens breaking a law ?
Hypocrites the lot of the cnuts ( incl Ming who is hopping around looking for causes to jump on) .
I expect the Socialists must be the laughing stock of their comrades across Europe getting all het up about a tax on Private property. 

[ross4life]

Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.

FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.

Has a new country sprouted wings in the last week, never heard of a people called the southern Irish before, unless you mean Munster people.

Maybe you would prefer be called western british then?

I think what MGHU is trying to point out is.. it can't be called "southern Irish" when Armagh is more south than Donegal.

[Maguire01]

Yes its an unfair tax (as is any property tax) but equally unfair is the €12 additional a month people with chronic illnesses must pay to receive their prescriptions (bringing the total to €1584 annually). Where is their revolution over that? 

Eh, why is a property tax unfair?

A property tax will normally make some discrimination between the value of the property. This tax does not do that and so cannot justifiably be called a property tax.With this, the tax burden is moved from the rich to the poor - there being more poor household than there are rich. Instead of the wealthy paying according to their means or the value of their property they pay vastly proportionally less amount than those on lower incomes i.e.  for a household €20000 take home pay this represents .005% of their income where are for a household on €100000 it .001% of their income. The nearest I can compare this to is Thatcher's Poll Tax in the '80s and look how that ended up.

There are inherent flaws in tying a property tax to the value of a property as well, as is the case in the north. You have people who are 'asset rich / cash poor' who get hammered with the rates bill.
As well as that, in the north, people in a £500k house will generally get the same services for their rates as someone in a £100k house; in some cases, the people in the £100k house may get more/better services, depending on their location. Is it fair for the people in the £500k house to pay five times as much in their property tax?

Also, not sure why a property tax should be tied to income. We tax people on their income via income tax. People who earn more, pay more.

[Maguire01]

And what's the deal with a TD, Dessie Ellis, being exempt because he lives in a council house?! A man on €100k living in a council house - how does that work?
http://www.thejournal.ie/opposition-tds-to-outline-plans-for-household-charge-boycott-304912-Dec2011/

[Orangemac]

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2011/1217/breaking1.html

Looks like no one will be going to jail over this.

The household charge (which is rates by another name), the measure above relating to paying off fines rather than jail time, bankruptcy law changes, taking on the vested interests in medical and legal professions, these are all at the behest of the IMF and are the kind of correct governance that would not be introduced by any of the parties in government on their own.

The €100 will invariably rise but you will just have to suck it up. Regardless of bondholders there is a deficit to be closed although the cost of local councils should be reduced by axing the no of councillors and merging councils.

If FG had any sense they should have exempted anyone who bought between 2003 and 2008 for a few years and paid high stamp duty, rather than the extra mortgage interest relief. Divide and conquer as they say.

I am still waiting for Sinn Fein to call for the removal of domestic rates charges in the North.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.

FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.

Has a new country sprouted wings in the last week, never heard of a people called the southern Irish before, unless you mean Munster people.

You on the eggnog again chap? You should seriously consider the 'off the booze' campaign for Jan. It's genius. You get a sponsor form and ask yer mates to give you money for NOT going on the lash. Truly a revolutionary idea.

No lad, don't let the time of my post fool you, I only sleep about 3-4 hours max a day, sometimes less. Haven't touched a drop in a month, so thats that theory out the window.

[mayogodhelpus@gmail.com]

Highly irresponsible from the td's to even suggest boycotting the charge. It is an exercise in populism.

FFS its a grossly unfair poll tax, if the southern Irish had any pride they'd resist it in the same manner as the Brits did when Thatcher tried the same stroke.

Has a new country sprouted wings in the last week, never heard of a people called the southern Irish before, unless you mean Munster people.

Maybe you would prefer be called western british then?

You talking about yourself there, nally!