Dublin v Tyrone quarter final 6.8.11 SFC 2011

[blewuporstuffed]

I remember the joke in 1995 regarding Peter Canavan and a black taxi - I think the same applies to Bernard Brogan and as we realised harshly back then its nearly impossible to win anything relying on one player!

i suppose there are parrells there, both teams having a group of decent footballers and one outstanding one.
as you say however, this is rarely enough to win you an AI

[nrico2006]

DFS, you are plain wrong there. We have won squat nationally at senior level since 1995. Arguing the unarguable  imo.

As already pointed out, lady luck hasn't smiled at us at times, but the facts speak for themselves (sadly).

Yes but I don't see how what a team was doing 5 years ago has any bearing on what they will do this year....This Dublin team is pretty much a brand new team with very very few who were playing 3/4 years ago.
Dublin were more successful last year and this year so far under a new manager with new players and a new system so don't see what 2008 etc has to do with things?

The players seem to have picked up the sport pretty quickly then.

Regarding last year, they were no more successful than they were in any of the previous 14, in many of which they actually brought home some silverwear.

[tyrone86]

DFS, you are plain wrong there. We have won squat nationally at senior level since 1995. Arguing the unarguable  imo.

As already pointed out, lady luck hasn't smiled at us at times, but the facts speak for themselves (sadly).

Yes but I don't see how what a team was doing 5 years ago has any bearing on what they will do this year....This Dublin team is pretty much a brand new team with very very few who were playing 3/4 years ago.
Dublin were more successful last year and this year so far under a new manager with new players and a new system so don't see what 2008 etc has to do with things?

The players seem to have picked up the sport pretty quickly then.

Regarding last year, they were no more successful than they were in any of the previous 14, in many of which they actually brought home some silverwear.

Actually they were less successful as they didn't even win the Leinster title.

[Hound]

Disappointingly, but not surprisingly, Gilroy has taken the cotton wool approach with his players, not allowing them to play in the club league games that took place last night.

Yet if we lose the QF, there'll be the usual moany nonsense about provincial winners being disadvantaged because the players had no games in 4 weeks...

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Yet if we lose the QF, there'll be the usual moany nonsense about provincial winners being disadvantaged because the players had no games in 4 weeks...

Why has a provincial winner won SAM only once in the last SIX YEARS?

[Hound]

Yet if we lose the QF, there'll be the usual moany nonsense about provincial winners being disadvantaged because the players had no games in 4 weeks...

Why has a provincial winner won SAM only once in the last SIX YEARS?

Why has the provincial winner won LIAM in 5 of the last SIX YEARS?

How on earth did provincial winners win SAM in 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2007 if they are at such a disadvantage?

The simple answer is that because everyone goes into the pot for the All Ireland, not just provincial winners, of course you are going to get plenty of non-provincial winners. Plus Leinster and Connacht teams havent been good enough to win a title in those years - whether they win their provincial title or not doesnt change that - but certainly has been used as an excuse.

Heaps of teams in all provinces have used the excuse of too little or too long preparation when they lose, when the real answer is they were just beaten by a better team.

In 2005 there was nothing between Armagh and Tyrone. Their games in Ulster and in the All Ireland semi-final could have gone either way. In the last 5 years there's been little to separate Cork and Kerry, but there's been no proven disadvantage to either winning the provincial title. To date Cork have been losing to Kerry in Croker regardless of who has been Munster champion. But they'll go a lot closer this year if they meet - and again that would be regardless of which of them won the Munster title. They like beating each other in Munster (and always prefer to win than lose), but equally they both know it counts for feck all at the end of the year.

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Yet if we lose the QF, there'll be the usual moany nonsense about provincial winners being disadvantaged because the players had no games in 4 weeks...

Why has a provincial winner won SAM only once in the last SIX YEARS?

Why has the provincial winner won LIAM in 5 of the last SIX YEARS?

Let's stick to the football, different competition with different structures.

How on earth did provincial winners win SAM in 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2007 if they are at such a disadvantage?

So you have to go back 4 years to find the last provincial-champ SAM-winner. Teams are adjusting and adapting to exploit the current set-up, that was always inevitable.

The simple answer is that because everyone goes into the pot for the All Ireland, not just provincial winners, of course you are going to get plenty of non-provincial winners. Plus Leinster and Connacht teams havent been good enough to win a title in those years - whether they win their provincial title or not doesnt change that - but certainly has been used as an excuse.

The Quarter Finals  cannot be anything other than 50% Provincial winner and 50% Qualifier: so whatever way that's sliced and diced, 1 in the last 6 is a very poor return considering 4 out of the last 8 are always provincial winners.

Heaps of teams in all provinces have used the excuse of too little or too long preparation when they lose, when the real answer is they were just beaten by a better team.

That's always a possibility too, but it can't gloss over fundamental weaknesses in the current set-up.

In 2005 there was nothing between Armagh and Tyrone. Their games in Ulster and in the All Ireland semi-final could have gone either way. In the last 5 years there's been little to separate Cork and Kerry, but there's been no proven disadvantage to either winning the provincial title. To date Cork have been losing to Kerry in Croker regardless of who has been Munster champion. But they'll go a lot closer this year if they meet - and again that would be regardless of which of them won the Munster title. They like beating each other in Munster (and always prefer to win than lose), but equally they both know it counts for feck all at the end of the year.

Could have, should have, but didn't, for the most part. You have bemoaned Gilroy for not allowing his players to play the club games, yet that's what partially undid Kerry last year, when a number of their players picked up injuries. So Gilroy is damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't; and the only certainty is that there is no substitute for Championship county games - exactly what the Qualifiers afford a team.

So there's no magic here, no coincidences, just plain logic.

[Hound]

Teams are adjusting and adapting to exploit the current set-up, that was always inevitable.

There's not one team in the qualifiers who deliberately lost in their provincial championship this year to "exploit the current set-up".

Some provincial champions will always lose in the quarters, because they're just not as good as the team who came from the qualifiers. Others have undoubtedly lost because because of poor preparation. But that's their own fault, not the system's. 

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Teams are adjusting and adapting to exploit the current set-up, that was always inevitable.

There's not one team in the qualifiers who deliberately lost in their provincial championship this year to "exploit the current set-up".

Who mentioned losing games? There's a big difference between going out to deliberately lose a game, and not peaking for a game. And there's a difference too in how teams have coped with the aftermath of being dumped out of the Provincials.

Some provincial champions will always lose in the quarters, because they're just not as good as the team who came from the qualifiers. Others have undoubtedly lost because because of poor preparation. But that's their own fault, not the system's.

Last year, in 2010, all provincial champions lost, not some. The statistics are glaring and irrefutable.

You've been rumbled Hound, you were that delegate, that delegate at Congress who so passionately voted for the current set-up, with all your bleedin' heart! 

[Rossfan]

Last year, in 2010, all provincial champions lost, not some.

Ros weren't good enough , Tyrone were sliding downwards and couldnt kick straight , Kerry had a lot of oul timers and were weakened by loss Galvin and O Sé while Meath's right to be called Provincial Champions is rather tenuous.

If you're good enough you'll win .

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Ros weren't good enough , Tyrone were sliding downwards and couldnt kick straight , Kerry had a lot of oul timers and were weakened by loss Galvin and O Sé while Meath's right to be called Provincial Champions is rather tenuous.

If you're good enough you'll win .

Excuses, excuses. And Cork didn't win, they were beaten eariler, once, unlike those who reached the Quarters without losing!

Clutch at another few straws there, why don't you.

[Cde]

Last year, in 2010, all provincial champions lost, not some.

Ros weren't good enough , Tyrone were sliding downwards and couldnt kick straight , Kerry had a lot of oul timers and were weakened by loss Galvin and O Sé while Meath's right to be called Provincial Champions is rather tenuous.

If you're good enough you'll win .

  love that one

[Rossfan]

Ros weren't good enough , Tyrone were sliding downwards and couldnt kick straight , Kerry had a lot of oul timers and were weakened by loss Galvin and O Sé while Meath's right to be called Provincial Champions is rather tenuous.

If you're good enough you'll win .

Excuses, excuses. And Cork didn't win, they were beaten eariler, once, unlike those who reached the Quarters without losing!

Clutch at another few straws there, why don't you.

You are clutching at plenty yourself a Fhear 

[nrico2006]

Last year, in 2010, all provincial champions lost, not some.

Ros weren't good enough , Tyrone were sliding downwards and couldnt kick straight , Kerry had a lot of oul timers and were weakened by loss Galvin and O Sé while Meath's right to be called Provincial Champions is rather tenuous.

If you're good enough you'll win .

Kerry still have alot of 'oul timers' this year.  But if it was such a bad thing for them to be playing alot of 'oul timers' last year then why would you bemoan the loss of two of these 'oul timers'?

Anyway, I don't think there is really any argument against the current system being flawed and not giving Provincial Champions an even playing field.  Every team should receive the same treatment and benefits.  It is not fair for one team to lose after winning their Province and not get that second chance.  Anyone who follows sport or who plays sport will know that certain teams lose the 'eye of the tiger' when getting things their own way for periods of time.  It is also well known that when someone or a team loses then they are usually more motivated, determined and focused after defeat and go on to achieve better results.  I cite Tyrone in 2008 - 2010 as an example.  Look at how they reacted to defeat against Down in 2008, yet look how they reacted when facing a battle hardened team in the quarter finals of both 2009 and 2010.  Would they have fared any better if they had got a second chance?  I reckon they would have.  Look at Waterfords turnaround from a few weeks ago to last Sunday as another example. 

[Fear ón Srath Bán]

Kerry still have alot of 'oul timers' this year.  But if it was such a bad thing for them to be playing alot of 'oul timers' last year then why would you bemoan the loss of two of these 'oul timers'?

That's one of his straws, only the other end of it is in a pint of whiskey it seems!