Paddy O'Rourke Out!

[stew]

Its great to see the old Armagh/Down rivalry bubbling away....

Correct, well said.

I dont think there is a kick of the ball between these two, down seem to have the upper hand but Armagh are getting an awful lot of talent back post club AI so it will be tough for both teams.

Gaelic football is always better off when these two are good at the same time.

[Applesisapples]

Two seperate issues here, firstly we have cobblers or wobblers going on about pedigree, I could take that from a kerry or tyrone man but not from some one from a county that has done nothing of note from the early 90's at senior level. Secondly what county POR from is irrelevent he was dodgy with down and thats why some Armagh people don't rate him. But enough of us are saying give him a chance.

Oh and most Armagh people now consider Tyrone to be the Old Enemy and the bench mark for success.

[thewobbler]

apples, people shouldn't bring pedigree into conversation unless the subject is worthy. Thank you for reinforcing my point.

[PAULD123]

Apples, The current Down team has no pedigree at senior county level as they have won nothing yet. But that doesn't mean that Armagh have. David McKeown was roll calling your team alleging pedigree based on Hogan cup, University, minor and U21 success. Down has that same success and so if that's pedigree then we have pedigree too.

Armagh has one county All-Ireland champion (McDonnell) until it is proven that R.Clarke can return. That is hardly pedigree for the current team.

So if schools and under-age is pedigree then Down have as much pedigree as Armagh

If All-Ireland finals is pedigree then Down have more than Armagh cause more of our players have played in won

If history is pedigree then Down have spades more than Armagh

May 28th, when you are looking up your guide book to find out how to get to your first round qualifier in the Midlands, you can reflect on how much pedigree Armagh have.

[ardchieftain]

It's like a school playground round here.

I thought the topic was to do with Armagh people being dissatisfied with the manager? So why are all these Down people sticking their noses in ? Do you want Paddy O'Rourke back ? Take him, his cover's been blown. Agent O'Rourke.................

[David McKeown]

Apples, The current Down team has no pedigree at senior county level as they have won nothing yet. But that doesn't mean that Armagh have. David McKeown was roll calling your team alleging pedigree based on Hogan cup, University, minor and U21 success. Down has that same success and so if that's pedigree then we have pedigree too.

Armagh has one county All-Ireland champion (McDonnell) until it is proven that R.Clarke can return. That is hardly pedigree for the current team.

So if schools and under-age is pedigree then Down have as much pedigree as Armagh

If All-Ireland finals is pedigree then Down have more than Armagh cause more of our players have played in won

If history is pedigree then Down have spades more than Armagh

May 28th, when you are looking up your guide book to find out how to get to your first round qualifier in the Midlands, you can reflect on how much pedigree Armagh have.

I was actually responding to an assertion that Armagh did not have the players to be competitive which I think is complete bollocks.  The list of accolades was to show that in teams before the current Armagh senior set up all but maybe two of these players were able to win AI medals or at worst get to an AI final in championship football, and a large number were able to pick up all star awards.  Moreover I went on to state that these medals were won in a number of different teams be it the 2005 AI under 21 team, the 2002-2006 Armagh team, the current AI Champions Crossmaglen team (the one you conveniently ignore) or the 2009 Minor team and are therefore not drawn from one particularly strong/lucky underage team.  The references to the schools and university medals was simply to show that even our hitherto less successful players have AI medals.

The point was then made that 10 teams in the country could make a similar claim, which in the absence of proof to the contrary is a massive exaggeration.

Just to take Down as an example how many of the current Down starting team have a player or young player of the year award?

How many have a senior All Ireland medal at club or county level?

How many have Under 21 All Ireland medals?

How many have minor All Ireland medals?

I will grant you that they almost certainly have more medals at colleges and schools level but again I was using that as our low watermark not high.

The reason I ask is simply this before last season when both O'Rourke and McCartan took over their respective teams, for me at least Armagh had the better selection of players, infact I would still rather have the Armagh squad if everyone was fit.  However Down are currently the much better team because I feel O' Rourke is at best not getting the most out of alot of the players in the squad and is at worst stifling their development through a lack of gameplan and tactical nous.  McCartan on the other hand has improved as far as I can tell nearly everyone in the Down squad since taking over.

The point is that for me this Armagh squad is very good, but they will not be competitive as I think they can be whilst O Rourke remains at the helm.  Thats why I hope this year will be his last in charge of Armagh

[anportmorforjfc]

May 28th, when you are looking up your guide book to find out how to get to your first round qualifier in the Midlands, you can reflect on how much pedigree Armagh have.

Fcuk i hope you eat your words. No need to be over confident.

[PAULD123]

As for the Down players credentials, most of them have an All-Ireland minor medal as we won it in 1999 and 2005.

Minor All Ireland champions - Coulter, Murtagh, John Clarke, Doyle, Sexton from 1999 and Clarke, McComiskey, McCartan, Colgan, Fitzpatrick, Garvey, Duffin, McKernan. All these lads started in a final plus others have medals from the bench.

Ulster U21 champions - Kevin McKernan, James Colgan, Conor McGinn, Peter Fitzpatrick, Paul McComiskey, Kevin Duffin, Conor Garvey, Conor Laverty, Luke Howard,  Cathal Murdock, Kevin Anderson, Michael Magee and Paul Devlin.

All-Ireland U21 finalists - Murney, Fitzpatrick, Magee, Maginn, Devlin, McComiskey, Poland

CURRENT All-stars - Coulter, McVeigh, Clarke, & Hughes (not some award given years ago, sure Greg Blaney has three all stars but we're not planning on playing him in May)

CURRENT GPA Team of the year  -  Coulter, McVeigh, Clarke, McKernan, & Hughes

Nominated as CURRENT player of the year - Coulter

McDonnell was Player of the year 8 years ago - Not the same thing at all

As for All-Ireland club titles (give me a break) How many recent All-Ireland club champions come from counties that win the All-Ireland the same year (or indeed within 3-4 years)? Antrim (St Galls) were champions in 2009 so how come Antrim aren't storming county football? Because it is a very poor correlation! It hasn't happened since your own victory back in 2002!

However the above just shows that comparing badges is totally meaningless. If you go down the route of comparing badges everyone just ends up pulling awards from everywhere and each roll call looks as convincing as the other in its own rights. But it is irrelevant what has happened in the past. All that matters is the current team standard, not their standard 2,5 or 10 years ago.

[Brick Tamlin]

Why cant some (fellow) Down posters keep it buttoned to an extent.
I know its a discussion forum based on discussion but i just dont get the whole over-confidence mantra from Down folk. I know im a cantankerous, grumpy git but by f**k some of the stuff on here recently from Down folk is ridiculous, ye should know better to be honest.
for what its worth and as ive said before several times, there isnt a kick of the ball between Armagh and Down and there wont be come championship time either.

[fitzroyalty]

I'd agree with Brick. Same goes for Armagh ones. We could have Nelson McCausland in charge and we'd still give Down a good hard game come championship. Won't be much in it either way. 

[PAULD123]

On a wet evening without half our best team we tore Armagh to pieces. Pure luck prevented Armagh from conceding at least 2 goals and we struck the woodwork four or five times. It was the biggest one point victory all season. In May it will be dry, the pitch will be hard and we won't be praying for a lad to come back after 2 years not kicking a ball.

Down in play were way ahead of Armagh, the scoreline in Cork didn't reflect how close we were to them just like the scoreline in Newry didn't reflect how far away Armagh were from us.

It's time to be realistic , Armagh are not perfroming and not improving. Down are doing both. It's all very well being polite and playing down our chances to avoid looking silly later but it is totally unreal. It's time to stop looking across the canal to compare ourselves, we are beyond that now. A victory for them would be big success; for us a victory against Armagh is nothing more than a stepping stone. We are aiming to win Ulster not just beat a team struggling for form. Down are superior to Armagh and will win by around four points.

[maddog]

On a wet evening without half our best team we tore Armagh to pieces. Pure luck prevented Armagh from conceding at least 2 goals and we struck the woodwork four or five times. It was the biggest one point victory all season. In May it will be dry, the pitch will be hard and we won't be praying for a lad to come back after 2 years not kicking a ball.

Down in play were way ahead of Armagh, the scoreline in Cork didn't reflect how close we were to them just like the scoreline in Newry didn't reflect how far away Armagh were from us.

It's time to be realistic , Armagh are not perfroming and not improving. Down are doing both. It's all very well being polite and playing down our chances to avoid looking silly later but it is totally unreal. It's time to stop looking across the canal to compare ourselves, we are beyond that now. A victory for them would be big success; for us a victory against Armagh is nothing more than a stepping stone. We are aiming to win Ulster not just beat a team struggling for form. Down are superior to Armagh and will win by around four points.

Just the 4 ? Id say it could be a game akin to 92 in the Athletic grounds with Down winning pulling up. David McKeown has a very valid point in that mcCartan has improved out of recognition some players that looked at best ordinary. Sadly so far O Rourke hasn't really brought us forward, but will reserve judgement if he fails to improve our fortunes when the full compliment is available.
That div2 league final seems like a lifetime ago.

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

On a wet evening without half our best team we tore Armagh to pieces. Pure luck prevented Armagh from conceding at least 2 goals and we struck the woodwork four or five times. It was the biggest one point victory all season. In May it will be dry, the pitch will be hard and we won't be praying for a lad to come back after 2 years not kicking a ball.

Down in play were way ahead of Armagh, the scoreline in Cork didn't reflect how close we were to them just like the scoreline in Newry didn't reflect how far away Armagh were from us.

It's time to be realistic , Armagh are not perfroming and not improving. Down are doing both. It's all very well being polite and playing down our chances to avoid looking silly later but it is totally unreal. It's time to stop looking across the canal to compare ourselves, we are beyond that now. A victory for them would be big success; for us a victory against Armagh is nothing more than a stepping stone. We are aiming to win Ulster not just beat a team struggling for form. Down are superior to Armagh and will win by around four points.

Damn these bloody scoreboards. Sure what do they have to do with football anyway?

[fitzroyalty]

Good man PaulD. You use the league as your yardstick. You may well be correct in your assertions but most people recognise that the form book goes out the window come championship time.

[Armaghgeddon]

Donegal should have put Down out in the first round of Ulster.