DUBLIN V ARMAGH sat 17th @ 5.00pm croke park

[eireogatron]

"natural half forwards" are a myth in the modern game. its a creative playmaker needed at centre forward - which we dont have - and two footballers at wing forward that can defend without the ball, win possession and support the attack.

Sorry don't agree with ya there, the Cf should yes in theory be a creative playmaker but the other two half forwards need to be scoring forwards who can put the ball over the bar, our problem is we have half forwards that are natural midfielders and are not known for their scoring abilities which snowballs more pressure on our FF line, yes they work hard and defend but cause little to no scoring threat whatsoever and until that changes we will not be competing for major honours.

Cork, Kerry and Tyrone have 6 scoring forwards and that's why they're the top 3 teams in the country

eh, kerry play galvin and a midfielder in the half forward line - donnacha walsh at the min
Cork play goold and pearse o'neill in the half forward line - two midfielders
Tyrone play dooher and mcmahon there.

None of those six are natural scoring forwards. one or two points a game each, if that.

you've sort of proved rather than disproved the point there as well duffleking. The players you've mentioned arent recognised as the scoring threat of their teams but still REGULARLY post a couple of scores from play. Absolutely priceless from the half forward line. We dont have anyone who will post more than 1 (if any) score from play at the minute. I would surmise we contribute  - on a regular basis - 2 points from HF. Tyrone, Cork, Kerry all post - regularly - 6 or 7 points from the HF line. that is the major over riding difference between them and teams like ourselves in the chasing pack IMO.

[illdecide]

Correct Eireogatron thats the point i was trying to make, fair enough Duffleking said they're more natural midfielders and i take that point but they're playing half forward and as he pointed out they score 1-2pts a game each which we don't get and in my opinion that's Armagh's biggest downfall and has been for the last 4-5 years

[DuffleKing]

That's a bit of a myth too. for each of the 6 "half forwards" named, they don't score at all in as many games as they do. for example, the munster final last weekend brought a point for darren o'sullivan (playing the galvin role) and nothing from donnacha walsh. Swift also scored a point last weekend

[Goats Do Shave]

Nippy & Aaron seem to score regular enough... though Aaron less from play now that's he's in the forwards ironically.
I always thought he looked better coming from deep. His big brother Stephen can do what he's doing now...

[Armaghgeddon]

In the last 10 years Dublin have only beaten 1 Northern team.

Obviously you must be talking about championship given we've beaten Tyrone, Monaghan and Derry this year alone in the league.

Though, from memory, I believe you are wrong regarding the championship also.

In the last 10 years Dublin have beaten 2 Nothern teams in the championship (Derry and Donegal) and lost to 2 Northern teams in the championship (Tyrone and Armagh).

Donegal isn't a northern team

[mountainboii]

Tyrone, Cork, Kerry all post - regularly - 6 or 7 points from the HF line. that is the major over riding difference between them and teams like ourselves in the chasing pack IMO.

The stats from this year's championship don't really bare this out. In Tyrone's two games, their starting half forward line have contributed 6 points from play in total, although they move about a fair bit so a lot of the time it's difficult to identify a Tyrone HF. In Cork's two and a half games against Kerry, ignoring their turkey shoot last weekend, their HFs also contributed 6 points from play. Kerry's HF line contributed just 4 points from play in those same games.

So I think the need for heavy scoring half forwards is overstated a bit. Each of those teams have excellent FF lines that do the lion's share of their scoring and have midfielders and HBs that chip in almost as regularly as their HFs.

Ignoring the Donegal match, Armagh's HF line this year have contributed around a point a game. A couple more points per game, not a massive improvement, from this line would be enough to see us begin to compete with the top teams in this regard. However, bringing about this improvement is not as simple as just sticking different lads into the 10, 11 and 12 jerseys, as some have suggested. A bit of a change in the style of play might be needed to get those lads closer to goals. I think a lot of it boils down to possession too. If you're on top in the possession stakes then your HFs can get forward more frequently and not have to worry as much about defending. Dangerous as it is to read too much into a game where the opposition gives up after 10 minutes, I think it's still worth noting that Armagh dominated possession against Donegal and we saw Aaron Kernan and Joe Feeney both get forward for a couple of points. In other games this year we've struggled for the ball, and it's probably obvious enough that this has played a part in the low totals posted, not just by the HF line, but the team as a whole.

[Zulu]

Lads if a half forward contribute 6 scores, especially from play, then they are making a massive addition to a teams scoring potential. If you accept that your FF line get the same and you pick up another 2 scores from frees then you have 14 scores which woould give you a decent chance of winning most games. I agree with AFS, Armagh probably need to change their style of play a bit and try to get the HF line into scoring positions more often. If defences know that your HF line pose a threat then you tend to develop more space for your FF also.

[eireogatron]

look at these teams throughout the last 2-3 years, not just 2 matches and the stats should bear out. Galvin, Dooher, McMahon, McGuigan, Kerrigan etc all regularly contribute scores. Our half forward line does not I'm afraid - Dublin are another example (last year), they romped Leinster and all 6 forwards were scoring, as well as boys from the bench. monaghan this year are another example of scores all over the park and they are flying.

duffleking- nippy was named a full forward. fair enough he played around the middle but if he goes out then its another forward less that we have inside.

I dont actually think that the HF lines I mentioned are "prolific" but if you look at the scores that win championship matches these days - sometimes as low as 11 points is good enough, anywhere from 5 points up from the HF line is absolutely crucial. I cant see anyone disputing this rationally. As mentioned Kerry and Tyrone in particular have half backs in the mould of Harte, McMenamin, O'Se, Jordan etc who can pop up with 1 or 2 points a game - not in every game but remarkably often. We have a couple of guys who I can see already do this sporadically and if they push on to be more consistent we'll have a great platform.

In short, I dont think theres a great difference between the top 3 teams and teams like ourselves. They have the extra scoring nouse in the middle 3rd - not massive scores but they all add up, 5,6,7 points from HF and MF combined and another score or 2 from half back doesnt seem like much but its formidable platform to give your full forwards.

[BerfArmagh]

For saturday I'd play and keep nippy in full forward and pump in high ball allafternoon, with clarke and mc donnell feeding off him. The dublin backline is ropey. I'd also have charlie running at them at every opportunity drawing frees... thats where the game will be won... My only concern is ciaran mc keever, he been running a tightrope this past few games.... hes a prime candidate for gettingthe line sooner or later

[Armaghgeddon]

My only concern is ciaran mc keever, he been running a tightrope this past few games.... hes a prime candidate for gettingthe line sooner or later

I think he will be fine. He has a serious thing for winding up the opposition though, but has also been able to keep his cool. McKeever at the first Armagh vs Down match - brilliant performance in front of the fans. In the Dublin vs Wexford match and even though the Dubs were coming back into the game one or two of the Dubs were dishing out some special treatment on the Wexford boys - who were eventually sent off.

How many times as Ciaran McKeever been sent of in a championship game? I can only remember him being sent off once - probably wrong.

[naka]

would play
hearty, moriarity, donaghy,mallon
           dyas, mc keever, duffy
                toner, lavery
            mallon, kernan, vernon
             clarke, stevie, swift

croke park too wide open for vincy and mal mackin
would fancy plenty of frees against the dublin half back line as all the half forwards can run with the ball
really see armagh winning by 3

[Goats Do Shave]

would play
hearty, moriarity, donaghy,mallon
           dyas, mc keever, duffy
                toner, lavery
            mallon, kernan, vernon
             clarke, stevie, swift

croke park too wide open for vincy and mal mackin
would fancy plenty of frees against the dublin half back line as all the half forwards can run with the ball
really see armagh winning by 3

I think that's as strong a team as we have! Looks good... on paper!

[fitzroyalty]

Looking forward to this game, two teams whose main strengths are based around fitness and upper body strength. Not feeling overly confident tbh, whatever about discontent in the Dub camp, they'll certainly relish this game and should be fired up. I'm happy enough with defence, Hearty in goals has been solid enough and a full back line of Mallon, Donaghy and Martin; a half back line of Finn Mo, McKeever and Duffy looks strong. That's the way I'd like our defence to line out anyway. In midfield I'd def have Toner and depending on fitness any one of Vernon/Lavery/Mackin. In half-forward line we are in a way kind of spoilt, not in that we have too many out and out half-fowards but we have so many players that can play there. We have players like Vernon and AK, both are too technically gifted to leave out of the side but have no real natural position as such IMO. I don't see the point in having two players playing the same role i.e. B Mallon and Vernon because all that does it take away any attacking edge we might have. I'd opt for Vernon, Kernan and Swift (who I think is real threat in HF). In FF I feel the Dubs will have taken notice of Jamie Clarke and will see him as a real threat, likewise McDonnell so hopefully that provides a few headaches for their fullback line. Still undecided who else I would play alongside them, Feeney or somebody lol.

[Jinxy]

I think this is the game Dublin needed at this stage.
Whether they'll win it or not, I really don't know.
If it's fast and loose it'll suit them down to the ground.

[eireogatron]

i dont think Dyas merits his place at this stage.