This is 2009, right? Insanity at Knock!

[J70]

When people can take solace and comfort in the face of loss, from "it".

Does that not go for flat earthers and creationists too? For example, a large minority of the US population are fundamentalists and believe in a 6000 year old earth. Is it ok to laugh at Paisley's beliefs but not those of catholics? They all believe in it because, to at least some degree, it offers them comfort and solace.

Once again you have ignored the example given above (from another poster and I would think from the heart).
Where does believing that the earth is flat offer solace in the face of loss?

You use the two examples I included to dismiss the point, I included them so people with your beliefs or attitudes could not use them to demean what I was saying (as I have slagged these off in the past) - but you still managed!

Sorry GDA, but I am not telepathic. Its not exactly clear from your post that you "included them so people with" my apparent "beliefs or attitudes could not use them to demean" what you were saying. It looked to me like you were saying it was ok to slag off flatearther/fundamentalist beliefs.

As for Laoislad's revelation, I'm not sure what you expect from me. No one (at least not me) is disputing that people find solace and comfort in religion or that his parents might have found that a trip to Lourdes helped them in their grief, whatever the reason. And (you seem to be forcing me to say it) offering my condolences as some anonymous, faceless name on the internet just seemed trite to me, so I let the post go without comment. I am sure everyone here is sorry for his loss and for all of our losses and (I may be wrong) I doubt if he was looking for that.

First off I'm not sure what you mean by "Laoislads revelation",strange choice of words if you don't mind me saying.

Anyway apart from that to make it clear to everyone I certainly wasn't looking for sympathy or condolences from anyone,I would never make little of my brothers memory by making people feel sorry for me on a internet forum,also we all have our crosses to bare and Im sure many of you have gone through just as hard and tough times.

I only posted that to explain how my parents faith and their trip to Lourdes helped them cope with the loss of a child,it certainly didn't cure everything as even today I can see it still hurts them,but my point was for people not to be so dismissing of someones faith because for those who do believe they can use it to help them cope with certain circumstances as with my parents,and I am pretty sure they weren't lying when they said they felt something when they went to Lourdes.

"Revelation" as in you revealed a very tragic personal detail to the forum.

As I already said several times, I do not dispute that people find solace in religion, or that somewhere with the tradition of Lourdes (or Jerusalem or Mecca or wherever) will have an atmosphere or whatever that touches the believer because of what they believe happened there. That does not mean that everything and anything involving faith or religion is sacred or should be beyond criticism, or even ridicule.

Fair enough..
I thought it was a bit dramatic to phrase it in such a way as if I was making some sort of miraculous claim.
No harm done,lets forget about it..

Absolutely, and sorry for any confusion!

[pintsofguinness]

I time it infinity more possible than some sort of mass hysteria was experienced rather than the sun  was dancing just for knock .

A group of people suddenly became hysterical and thought the sun was dancing in the sky?

Yet again no one answered why god decides to use cheap parlour tricks on one hand while on the other allowing/killing people in natural disasters on the other.

Well since none of us are God I think you'll be waiting a while for that answer.

It has happened before and will happen again. It was either that or the sun danced in the sky just for knock .

I'm sure God wouldn't mind you offering an opinion as so his motivations .

When

[Gnevin]

I time it infinity more possible than some sort of mass hysteria was experienced rather than the sun  was dancing just for knock .

A group of people suddenly became hysterical and thought the sun was dancing in the sky?

Yet again no one answered why god decides to use cheap parlour tricks on one hand while on the other allowing/killing people in natural disasters on the other.

Well since none of us are God I think you'll be waiting a while for that answer.

It has happened before and will happen again. It was either that or the sun danced in the sky just for knock .

I'm sure God wouldn't mind you offering an opinion as so his motivations .

When

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria#Specific_examples

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis_panic . This one seems crazy

[pintsofguinness]

I time it infinity more possible than some sort of mass hysteria was experienced rather than the sun  was dancing just for knock .

A group of people suddenly became hysterical and thought the sun was dancing in the sky?

Yet again no one answered why god decides to use cheap parlour tricks on one hand while on the other allowing/killing people in natural disasters on the other.

Well since none of us are God I think you'll be waiting a while for that answer.

It has happened before and will happen again. It was either that or the sun danced in the sky just for knock .

I'm sure God wouldn't mind you offering an opinion as so his motivations .

When

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria#Specific_examples

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis_panic . This one seems crazy

I dont see any exampes of the type of thing that happened at knock?

[Gnevin]

I time it infinity more possible than some sort of mass hysteria was experienced rather than the sun  was dancing just for knock .

A group of people suddenly became hysterical and thought the sun was dancing in the sky?

Yet again no one answered why god decides to use cheap parlour tricks on one hand while on the other allowing/killing people in natural disasters on the other.

Well since none of us are God I think you'll be waiting a while for that answer.

It has happened before and will happen again. It was either that or the sun danced in the sky just for knock .

I'm sure God wouldn't mind you offering an opinion as so his motivations .

When

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_hysteria#Specific_examples

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penis_panic . This one seems crazy

I dont see any exampes of the type of thing that happened at knock?

If people believe there penis' are about to be sucked back up in to their bodies they will believe anything .

I love how you pick and choose what evidence you choose to process.

[muppet]

There is s big difference between clouds parting and strange sights in and around the sun being visible to a large number of people....versus....Mary Mother of God appearing.

Any of the accounts I've read seem to use the former to prove the latter.

[ardmhachaabu]

*takes deep breath

I try my best to be a practising Catholic, I do believe that apparitions have happened in places like Bettania in Venezeula, Fatima in Portugal, Lourdes in France and Knock in Ireland

I have been to Lourdes, Fatima and Knock - the reason I believe that apparitions happened is the stories of the visionaries in the different places reflected a spirituality of someone much much older than the visionaries (Fatima and Lourdes especially)  The visionaries used phrases which only bishops, cardinals and higher would have known - we are talking about young children who wouldn't have had the education to even say the words!

Bashing Catholicism and religions in general seems to be a favourite pastime for some people on here - what I would like to say to them is this: 

If you want to believe in a 12 legged purple spider from venus named Wilma, fine by me.  If you want to believe in nothing, fine by me.

Just don't try to tell me that you know better than I do.  I can guarantee that you don't so don't knock me for my beliefs

[Lawrence of Knockbride]

*takes deep breath

I try my best to be a practising Catholic, I do believe that apparitions have happened in places like Bettania in Venezeula, Fatima in Portugal, Lourdes in France and Knock in Ireland

I have been to Lourdes, Fatima and Knock - the reason I believe that apparitions happened is the stories of the visionaries in the different places reflected a spirituality of someone much much older than the visionaries (Fatima and Lourdes especially)  The visionaries used phrases which only bishops, cardinals and higher would have known - we are talking about young children who wouldn't have had the education to even say the words!

Bashing Catholicism and religions in general seems to be a favourite pastime for some people on here - what I would like to say to them is this: 

If you want to believe in a 12 legged purple spider from venus named Wilma, fine by me.  If you want to believe in nothing, fine by me.

Just don't try to tell me that you know better than I do.  I can guarantee that you don't so don't knock me for my beliefs

I think where the non-believers are coming from is that people in general apply logic in most other walks of life but when it comes to religion it's rules out the window. Looking at it logically for example you are most likely a practicing catholic because of the circumstances in which you were born into. So if you're parents turned hindu before you were born you could quite possibly be a hindu now. Well that's how I see it. And Wilma is yellow this time of year btw.

[theskull1]

FFS why do we have to bring logic into this discussions? 

[ardmhachaabu]

Lawrence, I have used logic and reasoning to get to where I am today in terms of my belief system.

Please, do me a favour here.  You don't know better than I do about what I believe in.  You are entitled to your opinion, I am fine with your theory that wilma is yellow. I don't care.

I know what I believe and I hold my beliefs to be true, I am not trying to take yours away from you.  I just wish you and others would let me have mine instead of castigating me as stupid etc

[J70]

Lawrence, I have used logic and reasoning to get to where I am today in terms of my belief system.

Please, do me a favour here.  You don't know better than I do about what I believe in.  You are entitled to your opinion, I am fine with your theory that wilma is yellow. I don't care.

I know what I believe and I hold my beliefs to be true, I am not trying to take yours away from you.  I just wish you and others would let me have mine instead of castigating me as stupid etc

Why phrase it as "trying to take away" beliefs? You hear this quite commonly, although normally from religious people complaining about non-believers. If one's beliefs are strong, why would anyone worry about or claim that someone else was trying to take them away or not let them have "have them"? And why would anyone object to or be afraid of having their beliefs challenged? You can't "take away" a belief from someone without convincing them to give it away.

[mylestheslasher]

"You only like GAA games because your da liked them. If your da liked darts, you would too".
"You're only called John because your ma and da liked the name. You're not a John, you're a Gerard".
"You only eat eggs because your ma told you that you'd get a hiding if you didn't".

FFS wise up. When people believe in something, their ma, da and granny doesn't come into it. They may have introduced them to it but the individual takes the choice. That is why we have non-believers, who were brought up the same as the believers.

"Do you still believe in Santa"?

You're a gimp.

More bullshit from Hardstation - shock horror. Explain then, if a persons upbringing does not effect their religious beliefs, why there are not equal amounts of Irish born Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Jews. athiests etc etc. While some will seek out reason to existance in other religions the vast majority will stick with what they were brought up with at home and in school. If you still don't believe this ask yourself why all the churches throughout the world do their damnedest to get into schools and have all sorts of initiation rights for children (baptism, first communion and confirmation etc) at times when children are not acting of their own free will but instead the will of their parents. Taking catholics as an example (only because I was brought up one and know most about it than other religions) by the time you are going to secondary school you will have been effectively railroaded into a way of thinking and I would suggest it would take a major change in your own life to make you change to another belief system.

[Lawrence of Knockbride]

Thank you Myles for saving me the typing but while I'm at it:
My dad doesn't like GAA and I do.
My ma's a mass-going, pick and mix catholic, I'm not.
I like my name so I kept it. It's not important.
I don't eat eggs.

And Ardmhachaabu I didn't tell you not to do anything or say I was smarter than you. In fact I tried to keep it light and explain where I think non-believers are coming from. People get so defensive.

[muppet]

FFS why do we have to bring logic into this discussions? 

You are right.

Time to hang Darwin, Galileo and all the other blasphemers.

[theskull1]

FFS wise up. When people believe in something, their ma, da and granny doesn't come into it. They may have introduced them to it but the individual takes the choice. That is why we have non-believers, who were brought up the same as the believers.

"Do you still believe in Santa"?

You're a gimp.

The individual after a lifetime of (varying degrees of) indoctrination must at some stage open his mind to the possibility that what he has learned over the years is just a human control construct. I'm sure the vast majority (including St Teresa) question the very idea of there being such a thing as a god and at that point scurry back down into the safe burrow that they feel comfortable in, as they can't concieve a contented existence moving beyond that point where they believe god doesn't exist (both from an inner conscience and the social aspect of church going points of view). Non believers have went through the same questioning of faith and have simply had the balls to move away from safe ground as the evidence for believing in it is just not there when you actually go loooking for it (many don't). This blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe bullshit is the biggest controlling mechanism/get out clause in the church. Following a doctrine that was created by Romans 200 years after the death of Jesus using "selected" documents which were written in a totally different language to the area in which jesus lived, no earlier than 70 years after his death (most >100 years after)  does not make the Bible the word of God. The record shows that Christianity was used over the ages by the rulers to control the masses whilst the leaders of "the faith" abused and corrupted all around them.

But there aint to many "believers" who want to understand the history before they make these choices that you talk about. If deciding to keep the blinkers on and ignore historical and scientific evidence of the natural world then thats your choice. But it doesn't give you much to argue with.