This is 2009, right? Insanity at Knock!

[ziggysego]

Some doll was on the Gerry Ryan show there now - she swears that the sun started to rotate and dance in the sky.


Our Lady appeared to 6 people in the Church.

Who's more likely to appear next around Knock, our Lady or Sam Maguire ?

Now that would be an undeniable miracle!! 

[J70]

I dont think anyone is suggesting not going to a doctor.   

Its fair enough if you dont believe what they do, I dont really buy it myself but ridiculing someone for believing something you dont is the height of arrogance.

Quite right.
Arrogance towards  and ridicule of beliefs here, have nothing to do with science,
more to do with emotional immaturity.

So what would the "emotionally mature" approach to the events at Knock be? To let them go without comment or at worst take a "live and let live" approach?

Just because a belief or outbreak of mass hysteria is sincere does not make it worthy of respect.

It might have escaped your attention that mass hysteria is what happens throughout the land on a saturday night.

In your considered opinion a couple of thousand people doing what they do, peacefully, on their own patch, is not worthy of respect.
Neither is it worthy of the disrespect you have exhibited. That is the emotionally maturity you need to grasp, but you don't learn that from some scientific study someplace.

I presume you've never had a chuckle at the expense of some person or group doing or believing in something you consider idiotic then so?

Sorry, but I think that something like this should be labeled for what it is. Whether it's a bunch of catholics reading something into the fact that they see strange colours after staring into the sun or protestant fundamentalists sending their money to some preacher in the hope that their god will bestow riches upon them to pay off their credit card debt or, to go to the extreme examples, those who reject medicine in favour of prayer or drink the kool-aid. If you think it is "emotionally immature" to be disrespectful of such behaviour, suit yourself. IMO there is far too much respect afforded this type of nonsense, purely because it is religious in nature.

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Lourdes is not all about healing sick people,some people go to pray for other things and if it helps them in some way then whats the problem?
My parents went to Lourdes after we lost my 5 year old brother to a Astmha attack one night,it didn't bring my little brother back but it did help them with their grieving,you may ask how did it help?
I dunno how it helped but they got something from the trip and whose to say what force or divine help they got?

I certainly wouldn't go calling them morons for believing they got "help" from being there,so while you may not believe in God or miracles or anything got to do with religion some people do and anything that can help people get over a loss of such a magnitude is a good thing in my view.

BTW don't you dare say if there was a God why did he take my little brother from us at such a young age...

There have been some real shitty things written on this board of late (see stephen gatley thread) but Gnevin you are in danger of plumetting to a depth that is beyond belief. I don't know when you lost your brother Laoislad and for what it is worth I offer my condolences to you. I can only try and imagine how hard that was on you and your family. A lot of people get some closure and relief from their faith and in all honesty I envy them for that in some ways. Perhaps those of us, myself included, who do not have time for the churches or religion should be a little more sensitive in the way we make our points in future.

Now I don't think Laoislad is a card carrying Jesuit, nor is Myles, but these two comments have been ignored by most.
If you don't believe in something/religion fair enough, but why feel the need to ridicule, belittle and scoff at those who do.
Certainly if someones beliefs put others lifes at danger then fair enough, but the anti-Catholic crap on here gets depressing at times. And I'm no Saint either.

P.s before anyone mentions it, I do laugh at the flat earth/world is only 6000 years old brigade myself.

[J70]

Lourdes is not all about healing sick people,some people go to pray for other things and if it helps them in some way then whats the problem?
My parents went to Lourdes after we lost my 5 year old brother to a Astmha attack one night,it didn't bring my little brother back but it did help them with their grieving,you may ask how did it help?
I dunno how it helped but they got something from the trip and whose to say what force or divine help they got?

I certainly wouldn't go calling them morons for believing they got "help" from being there,so while you may not believe in God or miracles or anything got to do with religion some people do and anything that can help people get over a loss of such a magnitude is a good thing in my view.

BTW don't you dare say if there was a God why did he take my little brother from us at such a young age...

There have been some real shitty things written on this board of late (see stephen gatley thread) but Gnevin you are in danger of plumetting to a depth that is beyond belief. I don't know when you lost your brother Laoislad and for what it is worth I offer my condolences to you. I can only try and imagine how hard that was on you and your family. A lot of people get some closure and relief from their faith and in all honesty I envy them for that in some ways. Perhaps those of us, myself included, who do not have time for the churches or religion should be a little more sensitive in the way we make our points in future.

Now I don't think Laoislad is a card carrying Jesuit, nor is Myles, but these two comments have been ignored by most.
If you don't believe in something/religion fair enough, but why feel the need to ridicule, belittle and scoff at those who do.
Certainly if someones beliefs put others lifes at danger then fair enough, but the anti-Catholic crap on here gets depressing at times. And I'm no Saint either.

P.s before anyone mentions it, I do laugh at the flat earth/world is only 6000 years old brigade myself.

So where is it acceptable to draw the line then?

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

When people can take solace and comfort in the face of loss, from "it".

[J70]

When people can take solace and comfort in the face of loss, from "it".

Does that not go for flat earthers and creationists too? For example, a large minority of the US population are fundamentalists and believe in a 6000 year old earth. Is it ok to laugh at Paisley's beliefs but not those of catholics? They all believe in it because, to at least some degree, it offers them comfort and solace.

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

When people can take solace and comfort in the face of loss, from "it".

Does that not go for flat earthers and creationists too? For example, a large minority of the US population are fundamentalists and believe in a 6000 year old earth. Is it ok to laugh at Paisley's beliefs but not those of catholics? They all believe in it because, to at least some degree, it offers them comfort and solace.

Once again you have ignored the example given above (from another poster and I would think from the heart).
Where does believing that the earth is flat offer solace in the face of loss?

You use the two examples I included to dismiss the point, I included them so people with your beliefs or attitudes could not use them to demean what I was saying (as I have slagged these off in the past) - but you still managed!

[theskull1]

Whilst some religeous people on a personal level do get comfort and strength from religeous belief system (alot don't because they doubt their faith), is that saying though that athiests wont somehow be able to find similar levels of strengths and comfort when placed in the same circumstances?

I don't think so. They will simply use other mechanisms/thought processes to come to terms with difficult moments in their lives (and some wont just the same as christians). Religion is a crutch for the mind and if people need it so be it, but I don't see why sceptical minds can't call it like they see it as long as they are primarily motivated towards exposing the truth. Ridicule may be a byproduct I accept that but I don't think athiests main intent is to ridicule.

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Whilst some religeous people on a personal level do get comfort and strength from religeous belief system (alot don't because they doubt their faith), is that saying though that athiests wont somehow be able to find similar levels of strengths and comfort when placed in the same circumstances?

I don't think so. They will simply use other mechanisms/thought processes to come to terms with difficult moments in their lives (and some wont just the same as christians). Religion is a crutch for the mind and if people need it so be it, but I don't see why sceptical minds can't call it like they see it as long as they are primarily motivated towards exposing the truth. Ridicule may be a byproduct I accept that but I don't think athiests main intent is to ridicule.

I have no idea as to what athiests "use" for solace, but it is fairly obvious on this board, that those who disagree, primarily with Catholic teaching and beliefs and "incidents". Use ridicule and belittlement and scorn as their main weapons.

[J70]

When people can take solace and comfort in the face of loss, from "it".

Does that not go for flat earthers and creationists too? For example, a large minority of the US population are fundamentalists and believe in a 6000 year old earth. Is it ok to laugh at Paisley's beliefs but not those of catholics? They all believe in it because, to at least some degree, it offers them comfort and solace.

Once again you have ignored the example given above (from another poster and I would think from the heart).
Where does believing that the earth is flat offer solace in the face of loss?

You use the two examples I included to dismiss the point, I included them so people with your beliefs or attitudes could not use them to demean what I was saying (as I have slagged these off in the past) - but you still managed!

Sorry GDA, but I am not telepathic. Its not exactly clear from your post that you "included them so people with" my apparent "beliefs or attitudes could not use them to demean" what you were saying. It looked to me like you were saying it was ok to slag off flatearther/fundamentalist beliefs.

As for Laoislad's revelation, I'm not sure what you expect from me. No one (at least not me) is disputing that people find solace and comfort in religion or that his parents might have found that a trip to Lourdes helped them in their grief, whatever the reason. And (you seem to be forcing me to say it) offering my condolences as some anonymous, faceless name on the internet just seemed trite to me, so I let the post go without comment. I am sure everyone here is sorry for his loss and for all of our losses and (I may be wrong) I doubt if he was looking for that.

[J70]

And I should add that given that the flat-earther worldview is rooted in their interpretation of the bible, then is showing it disrespect, given that it is a religious view, not the same as disrespecting those who saw the sun dancing or who believe there were vegetarian Tyrannosaurs living happily side by side with Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden? 

[theskull1]

LofK and I asked what I consider a perfectly valid question earlier and not one christian appears to want to answer it. I think you are using this ridicule argument to mask out the real questions you are being asked. Easier that way. 

I don't know how to comment on the need for spiritual solace. It doesn't form part of my belief system so it pretty obsolete in my mind I think. Once your belief system considers religions as being human constructs, there's no going back. The spell is broken as a famous athiest once said. It's a new reality that you have to come to term with on your own but it's hugely enlghtening IMO. It doesn't concern me that when it's over it's over. In fact I enjoy the fact that as we decompose our biological components (nutrients) will be used to regenerate and thats as close to reincarnation as you get.

Anyway, I'm more interested in why such a miracle would happen.

Exactly. Any believers got an opinion on why god lets thousands of children die (of their own free will) of starvation and disease yet he can show up and do criptic party tricks to the faithful here to let us all know he's "fo real"?

There must be people who are genetically predisposed to soaking up all this sort of bunkum and believing every bit of it. These people who WANT to believe will leave their minds open to all sorts of influence. "Look the sun is dancing in the sky....don't you see it?"........"Oh yes ...yes I see what you mean....it's a miracle".....Darren Brown anybody?  . Do not underestimate the trickery of the mind to see what you want to see.

Thank god  I'm not one of them.

[Gaoth Dobhair Abu]

Don't think you needed to be telepathic to see the relevance of putting that statement at the end of my post, but sure be obtuse.

Whilst I was in no way wanting you to feel the need to offer condolences to Laoislad, the reason for his post was to highlight that his parents found solace from things which you would not understand, or people who may share similar views as you would ridicule and that was why I reposted it.

[Gnevin]

Anyway, I'm more interested in why such a miracle would happen.

Exactly. Any believers got an opinion on why god lets thousands of children die (of their own free will) of starvation and disease yet he can show up and do criptic party tricks to the faithful here to let us all know he's "fo real"?

There must be people who are genetically predisposed to soaking up all this sort of bunkum and believing every bit of it. These people who WANT to believe will leave their minds open to all sorts of influence. "Look the sun is dancing in the sky....don't you see it?"........"Oh yes ...yes I see what you mean....it's a miracle".....Darren Brown anybody?  . Do not underestimate the trickery of the mind to see what you want to see.

Thank god  I'm not one of them.

An important point which has been totally ignored along with my point about the rescuers.

[J70]

Don't think you needed to be telepathic to see the relevance of putting that statement at the end of my post, but sure be obtuse.

Whilst I was in no way wanting you to feel the need to offer condolences to Laoislad, the reason for his post was to highlight that his parents found solace from things which you would not understand, or people who may share similar views as you would ridicule and that was why I reposted it.

I guess I must be a bit thick then so, because I am still reading it the way I originally did.

But anyway, I believed in all this stuff growing up, having been indoctrinated like everyone else, and I can understand why someone would find it comforting to go somewhere like Lourdes with its tradition. I'm sure I would find it a very peaceful place myself if I went there. That does not in any way lend credence to what happened at Knock at the weekend, or the other types of wishful nonsense where people see Jesus in the cheese or the virgin mary in the tree stump or mean that we should take it seriously or assign any credibility to it. Even the church authorities dismiss most of this stuff as nonsense.