Antrim Hurling

[Glensman]

"From Antrim's perspective I think their players probably deserved better. If they had access to the same resources, the same expertise that our guys have I think it would be a different story. I hope the Antrim County Board will provide them with that reward because they deserve it.

"Technically we saw it against Wexford that they are excellent hurlers, but our guys have played at a level of competition that they only aspire to and it just creates too much of a gap. But I think from Antrim's perspective the hurling landscape is levelling out."

Donal Maloney
Clare U21 manager.

Cheers for this.

Not sure what he means re levelling out? but otherwise spot on.

[johnneycool]

"From Antrim's perspective I think their players probably deserved better. If they had access to the same resources, the same expertise that our guys have I think it would be a different story. I hope the Antrim County Board will provide them with that reward because they deserve it.

"Technically we saw it against Wexford that they are excellent hurlers, but our guys have played at a level of competition that they only aspire to and it just creates too much of a gap. But I think from Antrim's perspective the hurling landscape is levelling out."

Donal Maloney
Clare U21 manager.

He also said in the same interview that after they beat Waterford in Walsh park everything opened up for them and they weren't tested thereafter, that includes Tipp and Galway.

There's no shame in the defeat Antrim took as this is an exceptional bunch of U-21 hurlers and hopefully they'll bear that out at senior level if not this year, in the coming years.

[theskull1]

In all likelyhood its impossible that we will ever have the personnel needed to develop a culture and structures similar to what Clare have at the minute.

You'd need all the planets aligned so that

• You need a figurehead to inspire the kids and parents to part of a long term programme
  You need enough kids and parents prepared to sacrifice travelling to train

You need serious financial commitment to such a programme
You need clubs and their supporters `buying` into this programme
You need 20 people at a guess involved in coaching all the agegroups week in week out
You need year in year out commitment from every stakeholder involved

We can hope all we want but hope isn't really gonna change anything is it?

[clootfromthe21]

In all likelyhood its impossible that we will ever have the personnel needed to develop a culture and structures similar to what Clare have at the minute.

You'd need all the planets aligned so that

• You need a figurehead to inspire the kids and parents to part of a long term programme
  You need enough kids and parents prepared to sacrifice travelling to train

You need serious financial commitment to such a programme
You need clubs and their supporters `buying` into this programme
You need 20 people at a guess involved in coaching all the agegroups week in week out
You need year in year out commitment from every stakeholder involved

We can hope all we want but hope isn't really gonna change anything is it?

Skull, don't (can't) disagree with any of the above. But what is the alternative to at least trying to emulate (as best we can) what happens in Clare etc??

I know from your comments in the past that you have issues with collective county training at the expense of club training/playing, but if there isn't the level of application/skill/coaching available at club level ( or, perhaps more accurately, across a wider spread of clubs) is there any alternative to central training. If there isn't the amount of coaches spread across the county, isn't it better that a few dedicated and able coaches, together with groups of dedicated kids and parents, do for central training??

We also have to deal with our relative isolation vis-à-vis the main hurling world and how best to address it. Is it better (and more realistic) for a group of players to be identified as "elite" at an early age and then exposed as much as possible to games against the stronger counties (which, in reality, means frequent trips south) or to try and raise standards across the board. In principle, the latter would be preferable, but again we run into funding/coaching/commitment issues.

I have no particular insight into them but from this board and from twitter etc (I know, I know) a good deal of effort appears to have been made with this years under 14 and the reward was getting through to the semi final of the Tony Forristal and being (I believe) fairly unlucky to lose out in the final 5 minutes (against Clare of all people). This appears to have been the result of work of a few very dedicated coaches and a group of players (and their parents) who bought into the idea.

Surely if we are to progress as a county, it is this age group and the following under 14s that need to be the focus. With all due respect to the current senior set up, it is very unlikely that something will happen to bridge the gap to the elite. But if our under 14s can compete (and win) against the stronger counties over a number of years, players of both sufficient standard and confidence will begin to drift through to the senior ranks.

In relation to funding, as a member of Club Antrim, I find it very frustrating that I have no idea how much money is being raised and how it is being spent. I might be prepared to contribute more if I knew where it was going.

[theskull1]

cft21

There can't be an alternative way of doing things unless there's a change in mindset of hundreds of people. A mindset change that would require years of commitment both in time as well as financial. Thats a big ask and is not going to happen. Too many sitting back lamenting at the lack of quality in their clubs or the county (many are doing their lamenting whilst on the golf course or out on a 50 mile bike ride these days...no time to help you see )

Re: Antrim U14s this year (note 3-4 very strong U14 teams this year in Antrim with Div 2 Feile winning Rossa being a good head above the rest), yes there was plenty of development squad training done, but the same was true of the U16's. Difference was that the attendance/commitment between the 2 (also some club politics at play from one club). Will this years group of U14s be any different in 2 years time or will they stick together? Will the parents get fed up taking them? Problem is there's never been the right sort of year in year out continuity. One man decides to step away for a year and "a structure" falls to an arse. We've next to no proper back up. No one queuing up to be the next man to push things on. We've a passion group of hurling men out there and they're doing a super job considering the lack of resource but our structures are fragile.

Its a numbers game in regards to coaches. If you haven't enough coaches within most clubs it a difficult job to find the excess to properly assist development squad work to the degree that Clare do.

Just to many ifs buts and maybes out there for any dreams to get to reality. Keep plugging away with what you have.

[Milltown Row2]

cft21

There can't be an alternative way of doing things unless there's a change in mindset of hundreds of people. A mindset change that would require years of commitment both in time as well as financial. Thats a big ask and is not going to happen. Too many sitting back lamenting at the lack of quality in their clubs or the county (many are doing their lamenting whilst on the golf course or out on a 50 mile bike ride these days...no time to help you see )

Re: Antrim U14s this year (note 3-4 very strong U14 teams this year in Antrim with Div 2 Feile winning Rossa being a good head above the rest), yes there was plenty of development squad training done, but the same was true of the U16's. Difference was that the attendance/commitment between the 2 (also some club politics at play from one club). Will this years group of U14s be any different in 2 years time or will they stick together? Will the parents get fed up taking them? Problem is there's never been the right sort of year in year out continuity. One man decides to step away for a year and "a structure" falls to an arse. We've next to no proper back up. No one queuing up to be the next man to push things on. We've a passion group of hurling men out there and they're doing a super job considering the lack of resource but our structures are fragile.

Its a numbers game in regards to coaches. If you haven't enough coaches within most clubs it a difficult job to find the excess to properly assist development squad work to the degree that Clare do.

Just to many ifs buts and maybes out there for any dreams to get to reality. Keep plugging away with what you have.

You are right to a degree skull, while still 'doing my bit' at the club I've come away from the coaching managing side of things, maybe recharging the batteries I suppose, Having 2 girls and my big lad not interested in playing anymore it means at juvenile level I've less of a pull to be at the club more often. I've promised to get back into it with my cousin at some point and try and get a big team of parents helpers and coaches to run with a set of kids. But that's the way it goes, as you say cycling running and golf can be what a lot of our ex senior players are doing and committing to, that will always happen.

Hard to get people to buy in and stay at it, it needs to be from under 8 through to senior in my opinion with new bunch of people with the other teams coming through. We seem to have a good bunch and then it slides for a few years ffs

[clootfromthe21]

cft21

There can't be an alternative way of doing things unless there's a change in mindset of hundreds of people. A mindset change that would require years of commitment both in time as well as financial. Thats a big ask and is not going to happen. Too many sitting back lamenting at the lack of quality in their clubs or the county (many are doing their lamenting whilst on the golf course or out on a 50 mile bike ride these days...no time to help you see )

Re: Antrim U14s this year (note 3-4 very strong U14 teams this year in Antrim with Div 2 Feile winning Rossa being a good head above the rest), yes there was plenty of development squad training done, but the same was true of the U16's. Difference was that the attendance/commitment between the 2 (also some club politics at play from one club). Will this years group of U14s be any different in 2 years time or will they stick together? Will the parents get fed up taking them? Problem is there's never been the right sort of year in year out continuity. One man decides to step away for a year and "a structure" falls to an arse. We've next to no proper back up. No one queuing up to be the next man to push things on. We've a passion group of hurling men out there and they're doing a super job considering the lack of resource but our structures are fragile.

Its a numbers game in regards to coaches. If you haven't enough coaches within most clubs it a difficult job to find the excess to properly assist development squad work to the degree that Clare do.

Just to many ifs buts and maybes out there for any dreams to get to reality. Keep plugging away with what you have.

Again, Skull, I cant disagree with any of what you are saying.

I live outside the county and have (by dint of family connections) a reasonable idea of what goes on at underage in a couple of the very strong counties. There is no comparison whatsoever with the situation in Antrim. Hurling is literally the lifeblood in those counties - it permeates absolutely everything. Antrim, on the other hand, by reason of history, geography and demographics, is literally in a very different place.

But given that, it seems to me that the only way forward is to go down the "elite" line whereby small amounts of resources (players and coaches) can be concentrated and worked on as best as possible.

I agree entirely that the present structure is very fragile and all it takes is for one or two people to take a year off and there is nobody to step into their shoes. But what else can we do but that? The alternative is to simply give up.

Changing the mindset is a bit of a chicken and egg situation - people wont buy into it without there being some prospect of "success" (whatever that is) but success cant be achieved without people buying in.

In addition to being talented, the parents of this year's under 14s clearly bought into the thing. Will both those kids and parents continue to do so going forward? Who knows, but all that can be done is to make it as attractive and easy as possible for them to do so. How do you do that? I'm no expert, but it would seem organisation and communication are key - training sessions at set times and set places and kids and parents being fully informed of when and what is happening.

Again, very easy to type this onto a computer screen, I know  . . . .

[btdtgtt]

Great debate / points lads.

So much to pick up on but just one note cft21;

When you say that we don't have the strong resources across all clubs - so concentrate of an 'elite' I think this is flawed.

Firstly, we should never create an 'elite'. And I don't say this in some wishy-washy ideological way - what I eman is that the small group might be the best hurlers at U12 but its unlikely by minor it'd be the same guys let alone senior. Therefore its a waste to plough everything into this selective group.
After all this seems to be the practice to date.

For me the emphasis should be on tackling the root cause - if we dont have the strong resources at club level - then get them there!
Only through a strong and vibrant club scene will we progress at county level - cart before the horse and all that. But its true!
I mean honestly - does anyone think we can create a group of 20 hurlers just on their own? ofcourse not - they need to be created from a strong & competitive environment that pushes them on - not from endless nights in their own company training to infinity!

Less resources on pie in the sky projects like Dunsilly - more resources to clubs on the ground. Be it time, money, manpower - thats the only place that it'll produce sustainable results!

[clootfromthe21]

Great debate / points lads.

So much to pick up on but just one note cft21;

When you say that we don't have the strong resources across all clubs - so concentrate of an 'elite' I think this is flawed.

Firstly, we should never create an 'elite'. And I don't say this in some wishy-washy ideological way - what I eman is that the small group might be the best hurlers at U12 but its unlikely by minor it'd be the same guys let alone senior. Therefore its a waste to plough everything into this selective group.
After all this seems to be the practice to date.

For me the emphasis should be on tackling the root cause - if we dont have the strong resources at club level - then get them there!
Only through a strong and vibrant club scene will we progress at county level - cart before the horse and all that. But its true!
I mean honestly - does anyone think we can create a group of 20 hurlers just on their own? ofcourse not - they need to be created from a strong & competitive environment that pushes them on - not from endless nights in their own company training to infinity!

Less resources on pie in the sky projects like Dunsilly - more resources to clubs on the ground. Be it time, money, manpower - thats the only place that it'll produce sustainable results!

Btdtgtt ,

Your solution is the ideal one for when there is a multitude of players and coaches (plus finance) across the county. I just don't see that happening any time soon. We have very limited resources in every sense - playing population, coaching, finances. Do we spread what we have thinly across the entire county or do we concentrate it where it can be best used (I appreciate that is a somewhat loaded phrase)?

The bigger clubs (e.g. Ballycastle/Cushendall/Loughgiel/Dunloy/Johnnies/Rossa) appear to be self-sustaining - its the next tier that runs into problems - a combination of (lack of) numbers and (lack of) interest.

The particular benefit of development squads is that they can identify and bring on prospect outside of the big 6. Where, for example, did Conor McCann come from (Creggan, I know, but you get the point I am making)? In other counties, players from weaker/unfashionable/football clubs can get picked up by the school system, but we do not have anything comparable in that regard in Antrim

Of course you are correct that there will be a huge drop-out rate and the "elite" at under 12s will not necessarily be the County Senior team in 10 years time. This is a long term process and surely the goal is to end up with a competitive minor team and a few players drifting through to senior every couple of years. Furthermore, those picked at under 12 are necessarily forming part of the squad at under 16 - panels have to be subject to constant review and revision.

As for creating this out "of endless nights in their own company training to infinity", I agree entirely, there has to be a combination of training sessions and matches against superior opposition and the reality of that means frequent trips down the M1.

[btdtgtt]

Great debate / points lads.

So much to pick up on but just one note cft21;

When you say that we don't have the strong resources across all clubs - so concentrate of an 'elite' I think this is flawed.

Firstly, we should never create an 'elite'. And I don't say this in some wishy-washy ideological way - what I eman is that the small group might be the best hurlers at U12 but its unlikely by minor it'd be the same guys let alone senior. Therefore its a waste to plough everything into this selective group.
After all this seems to be the practice to date.

For me the emphasis should be on tackling the root cause - if we dont have the strong resources at club level - then get them there!
Only through a strong and vibrant club scene will we progress at county level - cart before the horse and all that. But its true!
I mean honestly - does anyone think we can create a group of 20 hurlers just on their own? ofcourse not - they need to be created from a strong & competitive environment that pushes them on - not from endless nights in their own company training to infinity!

Less resources on pie in the sky projects like Dunsilly - more resources to clubs on the ground. Be it time, money, manpower - thats the only place that it'll produce sustainable results!

Btdtgtt ,

Your solution is the ideal one for when there is a multitude of players and coaches (plus finance) across the county. I just don't see that happening any time soon. We have very limited resources in every sense - playing population, coaching, finances. Do we spread what we have thinly across the entire county or do we concentrate it where it can be best used (I appreciate that is a somewhat loaded phrase)?

The bigger clubs (e.g. Ballycastle/Cushendall/Loughgiel/Dunloy/Johnnies/Rossa) appear to be self-sustaining - its the next tier that runs into problems - a combination of (lack of) numbers and (lack of) interest.

The particular benefit of development squads is that they can identify and bring on prospect outside of the big 6. Where, for example, did Conor McCann come from (Creggan, I know, but you get the point I am making)? In other counties, players from weaker/unfashionable/football clubs can get picked up by the school system, but we do not have anything comparable in that regard in Antrim

Yes - I see your point.
Maybe instead of having an 'elite' development group we could leave those players in the stronger clubs to continue to develop and concentrate resources in the areas you mention such as Creggan? I agree also - our strong clubs can compete in the south but once we step outside that we fall away quicker. Maybe focussing on 'developing' areas rather than 'elite' might yield results?

Of course you are correct that there will be a huge drop-out rate and the "elite" at under 12s will not necessarily be the County Senior team in 10 years time. This is a long term process and surely the goal is to end up with a competitive minor team and a few players drifting through to senior every couple of years. Furthermore, those picked at under 12 are necessarily forming part of the squad at under 16 - panels have to be subject to constant review and revision.

As for creating this out "of endless nights in their own company training to infinity", I agree entirely, there has to be a combination of training sessions and matches against superior opposition and the reality of that means frequent trips down the M1.

Yes all true - I think sometimes our county teams are overtrained and lose the competitveness of games. Thats why we hear the old "as skillfull as anyone in the south" and yet we get stuffed. Like I say - a strong club scene will benefit not only those on the county squad but will encourage others who slip under the radar to come through and gives us strength outside the 'elite' to compete across the board. I maintain that the U21s who beat Wexford did so on the back of being preparing for club championship - we should note this and learn from it.

[Na Glinntí Glasa]

Dunloy v cdall is now moved to 4.15 to allow for the intermediate final to be played before hand between ahoghill and carey.

But both clubs arnt happy because if there's a straw that game would go to extra time, then a presentation etc meaning both senior teams would be delayed etc.

Apparently both clubs want our game to be first and then let that fonal be played after it.

[NAG1]

Dunloy v cdall is now moved to 4.15 to allow for the intermediate final to be played before hand between ahoghill and carey.

But both clubs arnt happy because if there's a straw that game would go to extra time, then a presentation etc meaning both senior teams would be delayed etc.

Apparently both clubs want our game to be first and then let that fonal be played after it.

That would also make sense in terms of the conditions, get a wet day with a match on before it and the pitch is going to be cut into ribbons.

[btdtgtt]

A fair point DR - I like the way hurling people think of that but our blessed fixture makers don't!

Although be careful NAG1 - Aghohill & Carey might find it disrespectful that they are asked to play on the cut-up pitch!!!

[Hirty Darry]

Dunloy v cdall is now moved to 4.15 to allow for the intermediate final to be played before hand between ahoghill and carey.

But both clubs arnt happy because if there's a straw that game would go to extra time, then a presentation etc meaning both senior teams would be delayed etc.

Apparently both clubs want our game to be first and then let that fonal be played after it.

That would also make sense in terms of the conditions, get a wet day with a match on before it and the pitch is going to be cut into ribbons.

Why would it make sense? Why should any of the teams have to play on a pitch "cut into ribbons" - it is the Intermediate Final which deverves as much respect as the Senior semi-final. 

Why does it have to be a double header?

What was the Loughgiel pitch like after the MHC double header on Sunday?

Two games again this weekend in Loughgiel seems a bit ambitious - it would be better splitting the games at times & venues that you can attend both games.

[NAG1]

Dunloy v cdall is now moved to 4.15 to allow for the intermediate final to be played before hand between ahoghill and carey.

But both clubs arnt happy because if there's a straw that game would go to extra time, then a presentation etc meaning both senior teams would be delayed etc.

Apparently both clubs want our game to be first and then let that fonal be played after it.

That would also make sense in terms of the conditions, get a wet day with a match on before it and the pitch is going to be cut into ribbons.

Why would it make sense? Why should any of the teams have to play on a pitch "cut into ribbons" - it is the Intermediate Final which deverves as much respect as the Senior semi-final. 

Why does it have to be a double header?

What was the Loughgiel pitch like after the MHC double header on Sunday?

Two games again this weekend in Loughgiel seems a bit ambitious - it would be better splitting the games at times & venues that you can attend both games.

Not saying anyone should have to play on a cut up pitch, but if im picking between which game should get first go at a decent pitch, by pure logic it is the Senior game. Take it up with the fixture makers who added the IHF to the bill after the fact.