The Many Faces of US Politics...

[blasmere]

In the economist this week, not exactly some whiny liberal paper

Leaders
American democracy
Don't rob them, count them
In the midst of the pandemic, the plague of voter suppression spreads
A president in hospital, virus in the White House, a fight over the Supreme Court, leaked presidential tax returns: it is enough to make you reel. Amid the tumult of the campaign, it is easy to miss a less frenzied turn of events that has no less profound implications for America's democracy. It concerns suppressing the vote. "Elections belong to the people," said the Republican Party's greatest president. What, then, would Abraham Lincoln make of his partymen's efforts—in Florida, North and South Carolina, Texas, Wisconsin and other contested states—to limit the number of people the coming election belongs to?

Allegations of minority-voter suppression are hardly new. They are also often overheated and hard to prove. Yet Greg Abbott's action in Texas stands out (see United States section). On October 1st the Republican governor restricted the number of drop boxes for completed ballots to just one per county. For the 4.7m residents of Harris County, 70% of whom are non-white and liable to vote Democratic, that is a travesty.

Echoing President Donald Trump, Mr Abbott said this was necessary to prevent voter fraud. Wisconsin's Republican legislature said the same to justify restricting early voting in the state, as did their counterparts in the Carolinas when insisting on the need for a witness counter-signature on mail-in ballots. Preventing fraud is a sound principle. Some Republican measures, including in Texas, involve tightening up covid-19 provisions for early voting that those same lawmakers had introduced. In practice, however, concerns about electoral fraud, which Republican lawmakers have cited in 25 states over the past decade, are almost always unfounded. This makes their arguments against the special covid-19 provisions hard to sustain.

The only major instance of voter fraud in recent times was perpetrated by a rogue Republican activist in North Carolina. There is no evidence of the mass Democratic electoral fraud many Republicans claim to detect. Mr Trump, who alleged that 5m votes were cast illegally for Hillary Clinton in 2016, launched a commission to find some. It returned empty-handed. Meanwhile, examples of new Republican restrictions have piled up.

In Georgia, Ohio and Texas at least 160,000 people, disproportionately non-white, were wrongly removed or marked for removal from the electoral roll in 2018-19. And though the effect of recent measures is unclear, Florida hints at what may be to come. The state voted in 2018 to enfranchise felons who had met all their obligations, an estimated 1.4m people—including a fifth of black Floridians. The Republican legislature passed a law enacting this plebiscite that interpreted those obligations in the most onerous way possible by demanding they first settle all outstanding fines. Former felons were always likely to be low-propensity voters, but this erected a formidable bureaucratic hurdle even to those able to pay. As Florida's registration deadline passed this week, perhaps one in six had registered to vote.

Mr Trump's threat that he will refuse to accept the election results has raised fears of a constitutional crisis. They need to be taken seriously. More likely, however, these practised instances of vote suppression will turn out to be the election's real lasting democratic damage. It is perverse for one party in a democracy to shape its politics around suppressing the vote. Adopting this as a political tool is especially foul in a country where African-Americans were denied the vote in living memory.

The tactic is the apogee of Republican short-termism. True, Georgia's governor may owe his job to suppressing black votes. But the party will sooner or later be unable to win national elections if it cannot woo non-whites. With every cycle of electoral abuse, the party of Lincoln is handing them fresh grievances.

[Milltown Row2]

The show I watched the other night, the social dilemma, when asked what they see going forward, a few of them said another civil war!

America is so polarised, reforms and equality has to be brought in. How will they cure the racism now, on both sides? The country that boasts about being the best really  needs to know what being the best is!



It's a pain watching outside in, as I said my cousin has been back since May, very successful business in Manhattan. Both kids in a private  New York School, but she's thinking very seriously of staying 'Home'

[sid waddell]

Sid, you're clearly capable of fighting your own battles and defending your own style of debate. I absolutely agree that Trump has fascist and racist tendencies, as does much of his support and staff; however, I personally think you're a bit quick to call certain posters or their views fascist or racist. There has been once or twice on the board when I've done so myself, but only in extreme cases like, say, foxcommander. And even if you are absolutely convinced, IMO your arguments are smart enough to make your points without being inflammatory and antagonizing others who probably agree with you anyway. For whatever that is worth...

I cannot see how anybody could support Trump and not be a white supremacist

White supremacism is the central defining tenet of what Trumpism is about

If one supports Trump, one supports that central defining tenet of what Trumpism is about

In the case of the small minority of people of colour who support Trump, they are prepared to tolerate white supremacism, which is the same thing as being a white supremacist

Saying that one can be a Trump supporter but not a white supremacist is like saying that one can be a Nazi but not an anti-Semite

It's important to note that there were actually Jews who supported Hitler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews

[armaghniac]

It's a pain watching outside in, as I said my cousin has been back since May, very successful business in Manhattan. Both kids in a private  New York School, but she's thinking very seriously of staying 'Home'

Yeah, like it isn't as if civil war is likely to break out in Belfast.

[sid waddell]

The show I watched the other night, the social dilemma, when asked what they see going forward, a few of them said another civil war!

America is so polarised, reforms and equality has to be brought in. How will they cure the racism now, on both sides? The country that boasts about being the best really  needs to know what being the best is!



It's a pain watching outside in, as I said my cousin has been back since May, very successful business in Manhattan. Both kids in a private  New York School, but she's thinking very seriously of staying 'Home'

There isn't a serious problem with anti-white racism

There is a serious problem with anti-black and anti-people of colour racism among white people

It exists among Biden supporters and among all political persuasions, but the Republican party and its associated media is overwhelmingly the political vehicle for this racism and its most dangerous manifestations

The Republican party and its associated media is, by far, where the main problem lies

And until they are disbanded or very radically reformed, that problem will continue

[Milltown Row2]

It's a pain watching outside in, as I said my cousin has been back since May, very successful business in Manhattan. Both kids in a private  New York School, but she's thinking very seriously of staying 'Home'

Yeah, like it isn't as if civil war is likely to break out in Belfast.

The civil war wasn't my quote, it came from real Americans. While we still have our differences my post is about what's happening in the USA

[Eamonnca1]

Is this the most toxic thread on the board? I know we have a few ex pats living there and that's fine, but I fail to see the immediate interests of locals here on a country that really plays no large part in our political lives.

GFA
Brexit
Border
EU Trade Deals (US is Irelands largest exporter partner)
J1 Visas
Green Cards
Medical Research
US companies going back to US reducing jobs (over 100,000 Irish employees)
Investment into local economy by building US company offices/buildings (multi-billion)

All depend on who is in the White House and Congress.

Do those America companies pay tax on Ireland?

Green card J1's.. seriously?

The border? Trump would build a wall round it..

Medical research? Flip sake cause they do it for free!

Are they helping with brexit or make money off the back of it?

Trade deals in chlorine rinsed chicken

Hume/Trimble Bertie and Blair Mo and Andrews with former Senator George as mediator. But yes it was America that did it!

Without America we'd still be in cottages burning turf eating spuds!

Without America there'd have been no Anglo Irish Agreement (Thatcher openly admitted it was the yanks that made her sign it) and likely no Good Friday Agreement either. The MacBride Principles brought American economic pressure to end discriminatory employment practices in the north. 20% of employment in the free state is dependent on US investment.

America matters in Ireland, whether you know it or not.

[dec]

Sid, you're clearly capable of fighting your own battles and defending your own style of debate. I absolutely agree that Trump has fascist and racist tendencies, as does much of his support and staff; however, I personally think you're a bit quick to call certain posters or their views fascist or racist. There has been once or twice on the board when I've done so myself, but only in extreme cases like, say, foxcommander. And even if you are absolutely convinced, IMO your arguments are smart enough to make your points without being inflammatory and antagonizing others who probably agree with you anyway. For whatever that is worth...

I cannot see how anybody could support Trump and not be a white supremacist

White supremacism is the central defining tenet of what Trumpism is about

If one supports Trump, one supports that central defining tenet of what Trumpism is about

In the case of the small minority of people of colour who support Trump, they are prepared to tolerate white supremacism, which is the same thing as being a white supremacist

Saying that one can be a Trump supporter but not a white supremacist is like saying that one can be a Nazi but not an anti-Semite

It's important to note that there were actually Jews who supported Hitler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews

Godwin's Law

[Milltown Row2]

Is this the most toxic thread on the board? I know we have a few ex pats living there and that's fine, but I fail to see the immediate interests of locals here on a country that really plays no large part in our political lives.

GFA
Brexit
Border
EU Trade Deals (US is Irelands largest exporter partner)
J1 Visas
Green Cards
Medical Research
US companies going back to US reducing jobs (over 100,000 Irish employees)
Investment into local economy by building US company offices/buildings (multi-billion)

All depend on who is in the White House and Congress.

Do those America companies pay tax on Ireland?

Green card J1's.. seriously?

The border? Trump would build a wall round it..

Medical research? Flip sake cause they do it for free!

Are they helping with brexit or make money off the back of it?

Trade deals in chlorine rinsed chicken

Hume/Trimble Bertie and Blair Mo and Andrews with former Senator George as mediator. But yes it was America that did it!

Without America we'd still be in cottages burning turf eating spuds!

Without America there'd have been no Anglo Irish Agreement (Thatcher openly admitted it was the yanks that made her sign it) and likely no Good Friday Agreement either. The MacBride Principles brought American economic pressure to end discriminatory employment practices in the north. 20% of employment in the free state is dependent on US investment.

America matters in Ireland, whether you know it or not.

Eamon keep telling yourself that and you'll believe it.. Do you think those American companies should be paying the correct taxes?

[Milltown Row2]

We should be thanking them for McDonald's too

[sid waddell]

Sid, you're clearly capable of fighting your own battles and defending your own style of debate. I absolutely agree that Trump has fascist and racist tendencies, as does much of his support and staff; however, I personally think you're a bit quick to call certain posters or their views fascist or racist. There has been once or twice on the board when I've done so myself, but only in extreme cases like, say, foxcommander. And even if you are absolutely convinced, IMO your arguments are smart enough to make your points without being inflammatory and antagonizing others who probably agree with you anyway. For whatever that is worth...

I cannot see how anybody could support Trump and not be a white supremacist

White supremacism is the central defining tenet of what Trumpism is about

If one supports Trump, one supports that central defining tenet of what Trumpism is about

In the case of the small minority of people of colour who support Trump, they are prepared to tolerate white supremacism, which is the same thing as being a white supremacist

Saying that one can be a Trump supporter but not a white supremacist is like saying that one can be a Nazi but not an anti-Semite

It's important to note that there were actually Jews who supported Hitler

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews

Godwin's Law

Given that you've heard of Godwin's Law I'm sure you're aware that Mike Godwin wrote, in the early stages of Trump's candidacy, that considered comparisons between Trump and Hitler were absolutely legitimate

https://web.archive.org/web/20170209163428/https://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2015/12/14/sure-call-trump-a-nazi-just-make-sure-you-know-what-youre-talking-about/

Godwin's Law was basically a meme created to ridicule spurious comparisons to the Nazis

So, for example, the beloved trope of right-wingers to demonise feminists - "feminazis" - would certainly fall under that category, another example would be Brexiteers who compare the EU to the Nazis

These comparisons are self consciously ludicrous

While my comparison is not because it is genuinely held, historically literate and reasonable, especially so given that Trump has actually continually offered support and succour to white supremacists and neo-Nazis

You'd also have to ignore Trump's own defence secretary, James Mattis, who invoked the Nazis in a warning about Trump in June 2020, as well as historians and other experts on authoritarianism who hold that such a comparison is appropriate

Godwin's Law unfortunately tends to be invoked in ways that were not intended by its creator and your invocation of it is an example

[Gmac]

Is this the most toxic thread on the board? I know we have a few ex pats living there and that's fine, but I fail to see the immediate interests of locals here on a country that really plays no large part in our political lives.

GFA
Brexit
Border
EU Trade Deals (US is Irelands largest exporter partner)
J1 Visas
Green Cards
Medical Research
US companies going back to US reducing jobs (over 100,000 Irish employees)
Investment into local economy by building US company offices/buildings (multi-billion)

All depend on who is in the White House and Congress.

Do those America companies pay tax on Ireland?

Green card J1's.. seriously?

The border? Trump would build a wall round it..

Medical research? Flip sake cause they do it for free!

Are they helping with brexit or make money off the back of it?

Trade deals in chlorine rinsed chicken

Hume/Trimble Bertie and Blair Mo and Andrews with former Senator George as mediator. But yes it was America that did it!

Without America we'd still be in cottages burning turf eating spuds!

Without America there'd have been no Anglo Irish Agreement (Thatcher openly admitted it was the yanks that made her sign it) and likely no Good Friday Agreement either. The MacBride Principles brought American economic pressure to end discriminatory employment practices in the north. 20% of employment in the free state is dependent on US investment.

America matters in Ireland, whether you know it or not.

Eamon keep telling yourself that and you'll believe it.. Do you think those American companies should be paying the correct taxes?

fighting Irish just about to kick off .

[Eamonnca1]

Is this the most toxic thread on the board? I know we have a few ex pats living there and that's fine, but I fail to see the immediate interests of locals here on a country that really plays no large part in our political lives.

GFA
Brexit
Border
EU Trade Deals (US is Irelands largest exporter partner)
J1 Visas
Green Cards
Medical Research
US companies going back to US reducing jobs (over 100,000 Irish employees)
Investment into local economy by building US company offices/buildings (multi-billion)

All depend on who is in the White House and Congress.

Do those America companies pay tax on Ireland?

Green card J1's.. seriously?

The border? Trump would build a wall round it..

Medical research? Flip sake cause they do it for free!

Are they helping with brexit or make money off the back of it?

Trade deals in chlorine rinsed chicken

Hume/Trimble Bertie and Blair Mo and Andrews with former Senator George as mediator. But yes it was America that did it!

Without America we'd still be in cottages burning turf eating spuds!

Without America there'd have been no Anglo Irish Agreement (Thatcher openly admitted it was the yanks that made her sign it) and likely no Good Friday Agreement either. The MacBride Principles brought American economic pressure to end discriminatory employment practices in the north. 20% of employment in the free state is dependent on US investment.

America matters in Ireland, whether you know it or not.

Eamon keep telling yourself that and you'll believe it.. Do you think those American companies should be paying the correct taxes?

So Thatcher would have signed the AIA without American intervention? The MacBride Principles didn't help to end discrimination? 20% of jobs in the free state don't depend on US investment? What exactly are you trying to argue here?

(We're not talking about taxation.)

[Eamonnca1]

fighting Irish just about to kick off .

Any chance of you condemning the terrorist plot to kidnap and kill a democratically elected state governor?

[LCohen]

Is this the most toxic thread on the board? I know we have a few ex pats living there and that's fine, but I fail to see the immediate interests of locals here on a country that really plays no large part in our political lives.

GFA
Brexit
Border
EU Trade Deals (US is Irelands largest exporter partner)
J1 Visas
Green Cards
Medical Research
US companies going back to US reducing jobs (over 100,000 Irish employees)
Investment into local economy by building US company offices/buildings (multi-billion)

All depend on who is in the White House and Congress.

Do those America companies pay tax on Ireland?

Green card J1's.. seriously?

The border? Trump would build a wall round it..

Medical research? Flip sake cause they do it for free!

Are they helping with brexit or make money off the back of it?

Trade deals in chlorine rinsed chicken

Hume/Trimble Bertie and Blair Mo and Andrews with former Senator George as mediator. But yes it was America that did it!

Without America we'd still be in cottages burning turf eating spuds!

Without America there'd have been no Anglo Irish Agreement (Thatcher openly admitted it was the yanks that made her sign it) and likely no Good Friday Agreement either. The MacBride Principles brought American economic pressure to end discriminatory employment practices in the north. 20% of employment in the free state is dependent on US investment.

America matters in Ireland, whether you know it or not.

Eamon keep telling yourself that and you'll believe it.. Do you think those American companies should be paying the correct taxes?

So Thatcher would have signed the AIA without American intervention? The MacBride Principles didn't help to end discrimination? 20% of jobs in the free state don't depend on US investment? What exactly are you trying to argue here?

(We're not talking about taxation.)

Agree 100%