The Many Faces of US Politics...

[seafoid]

The US economy has gone beyond the point where a tweak will make a difference. The neoliberal system is designed to shunt money to the ultra rich . It took 40 years to get to where we are now. In the early days it was about breaking unions . then it moved on to filling Congress with yes men. Then breaking the link between productivity and wage increases. Through it all debt was issued by the rich. The 2008 crash happened because poor Americans couldn't repay their sub prime loans because of no payrises. Since then the Fed has flooded the market with money. It drove asset values up by over $10 trillion for a real economy growth impact of $3 tn. Politics are polarised.
It's too late to fix the system.

[whitey]

Acceptable rates are those that would promote economic growth for the country, provide for a good standard of education, and health care. Encourage the role of capitalism is it's purest form and remove the bloat from the US budget and create a growing expanding fair US economy based in appropriate spending.

If you think that picking four numbers helps your understanding of that goal buy a scratch card.

And therin lies the problem.....what you and others on the left find "acceptable" is anything but.

CT (where I lived for 5 years) has taxed their wealthiest and most productive citizens to oblivion, and they are fleeing the state in droves.  After losing GE last year, it was announced just last week that Aetna is leaving. 

http://www.courant.com/politics/hc-consensus-revenue-update-20170501-story.html

http://wtnh.com/2017/04/28/income-tax-revenue-collapses-malloy-says-taxing-the-rich-doesnt-work/

[seafoid]

Taxing the rich only works efficiently with political backing.

[whitey]

Taxing the rich only works efficiently with political backing.

I don't understand that comment.....please explain

[seafoid]

Taxing the rich only works efficiently with political backing.

I don't understand that comment.....please explain

You need a political movement to change the system. Trump is a fake. He will keep it going. The US needs a grassroots based political movement that will have the power to change things. Grassroots plus politicians. So everyone in Congress and the Senate buys in.
That is how it worked in the 50s. 

Otherwise Sentaors get picked off and nothing changes. Eg AHCA.
the US is at a political point that happens maybe once every 40 years.
The only thing money fears is the people.

[whitey]

The thing is rich people have armies of accountants and lawyers and can figure out a way around a lot of taxes. From my viewpoint, instead of lobbying for actual workable reform the Democrats have lobbied  to their base and played the "class warfare card".  E.g. The "rich" aren't paying their "fair share". You're schools suck because that bastard doesn't pay enough

Instead of reforming the corporate tax rate (which is among the highest in the developed world) so companies actually will pay tax here, instead of running their earnings through a PO Box in Dublin all we hear from the likes of Granny Elizabeth Warren is bullshit about "corporate welfare".  That might win her a few votes, but it doesn't add one penny to the tax take

[J70]

The thing is rich people have armies of accountants and lawyers and can figure out a way around a lot of taxes. From my viewpoint, instead of lobbying for actual workable reform the Democrats have lobbied  to their base and played the "class warfare card".  E.g. The "rich" aren't paying their "fair share". You're schools suck because that b**tard doesn't pay enough

Instead of reforming the corporate tax rate (which is among the highest in the developed world) so companies actually will pay tax here, instead of running their earnings through a PO Box in Dublin all we hear from the likes of Granny Elizabeth Warren is bullshit about "corporate welfare".  That might win her a few votes, but it doesn't add one penny to the tax take

I've no objection to lowering the corporate tax rate to encourage growth, but how many companies offshore their operations because of it? Will those tech and pharmaceutical companies bring their official tax locations back, or will there always be another country undercutting and setting up as a tax haven for them?

On the class warfare stuff, both parties play that game. Have you forgotten the "takers/makers" nonsense of 2012? Ryan still subscribes to that nonsense. Trump merely substituted class for "them" in the form of immigrants and muslims.

[seafoid]

The thing is rich people have armies of accountants and lawyers and can figure out a way around a lot of taxes. From my viewpoint, instead of lobbying for actual workable reform the Democrats have lobbied  to their base and played the "class warfare card".  E.g. The "rich" aren't paying their "fair share". You're schools suck because that b**tard doesn't pay enough

Instead of reforming the corporate tax rate (which is among the highest in the developed world) so companies actually will pay tax here, instead of running their earnings through a PO Box in Dublin all we hear from the likes of Granny Elizabeth Warren is bullshit about "corporate welfare".  That might win her a few votes, but it doesn't add one penny to the tax take

Tammany Hall was a powerful lobby once

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammany_Hall

Roosevelt and his lead campaign manager James Farley stripped Tammany of federal patronage, which had been expanded under the New Deal—and passed it instead to Ed Flynn, boss of the Bronx who had kept his district clean of corruption.[60] Roosevelt helped Republican Fiorello La Guardia become mayor on a Fusion ticket, thus removing even more patronage from Tammany's control. La Guardia was elected in 1933.[61] After becoming mayor, LaGuardia reorganized the city cabinet with non-partisan officials and sought to develop a clean and honest city government.[61]

[whitey]

The thing is rich people have armies of accountants and lawyers and can figure out a way around a lot of taxes. From my viewpoint, instead of lobbying for actual workable reform the Democrats have lobbied  to their base and played the "class warfare card".  E.g. The "rich" aren't paying their "fair share". You're schools suck because that b**tard doesn't pay enough

Instead of reforming the corporate tax rate (which is among the highest in the developed world) so companies actually will pay tax here, instead of running their earnings through a PO Box in Dublin all we hear from the likes of Granny Elizabeth Warren is bullshit about "corporate welfare".  That might win her a few votes, but it doesn't add one penny to the tax take

I've no objection to lowering the corporate tax rate to encourage growth, but how many companies offshore their operations because of it? Will those tech and pharmaceutical companies bring their official tax locations back, or will there always be another country undercutting and setting up as a tax haven for them?

On the class warfare stuff, both parties play that game. Have you forgotten the "takers/makers" nonsense of 2012? Ryan still subscribes to that nonsense. Trump merely substituted class for "them" in the form of immigrants and muslims.

Unfortunately there is an underclass in this country that will never meaningfully contribute anything to society. Romneys choice of words was piss poor, but he was right on the money

Their  parents and grandparents contributed nothing and their children and grandchildren won't either

They are stuck in a perpetual cycle of poverty, addiction and crime.....it's all very depressing

[J70]

The thing is rich people have armies of accountants and lawyers and can figure out a way around a lot of taxes. From my viewpoint, instead of lobbying for actual workable reform the Democrats have lobbied  to their base and played the "class warfare card".  E.g. The "rich" aren't paying their "fair share". You're schools suck because that b**tard doesn't pay enough

Instead of reforming the corporate tax rate (which is among the highest in the developed world) so companies actually will pay tax here, instead of running their earnings through a PO Box in Dublin all we hear from the likes of Granny Elizabeth Warren is bullshit about "corporate welfare".  That might win her a few votes, but it doesn't add one penny to the tax take

I've no objection to lowering the corporate tax rate to encourage growth, but how many companies offshore their operations because of it? Will those tech and pharmaceutical companies bring their official tax locations back, or will there always be another country undercutting and setting up as a tax haven for them?

On the class warfare stuff, both parties play that game. Have you forgotten the "takers/makers" nonsense of 2012? Ryan still subscribes to that nonsense. Trump merely substituted class for "them" in the form of immigrants and muslims.

Unfortunately there is an underclass in this country that will never meaningfully contribute anything to society. Romneys choice of words was piss poor, but he was right on the money

Their  parents and grandparents contributed nothing and their children and grandchildren won't either

They are stuck in a perpetual cycle of poverty, addiction and crime.....it's all very depressing

Seriously? Romney was "right on the money"? 47% of the people "contribute" nothing meaningful?

The extent of a person's contribution to society is defined by what they earn and pay in taxes?

What is "meaningful"?

[Hardy]

The thing is rich people have armies of accountants and lawyers and can figure out a way around a lot of taxes. From my viewpoint, instead of lobbying for actual workable reform the Democrats have lobbied  to their base and played the "class warfare card".  E.g. The "rich" aren't paying their "fair share". You're schools suck because that b**tard doesn't pay enough

Instead of reforming the corporate tax rate (which is among the highest in the developed world) so companies actually will pay tax here, instead of running their earnings through a PO Box in Dublin all we hear from the likes of Granny Elizabeth Warren is bullshit about "corporate welfare".  That might win her a few votes, but it doesn't add one penny to the tax take

I've no objection to lowering the corporate tax rate to encourage growth, but how many companies offshore their operations because of it? Will those tech and pharmaceutical companies bring their official tax locations back, or will there always be another country undercutting and setting up as a tax haven for them?

On the class warfare stuff, both parties play that game. Have you forgotten the "takers/makers" nonsense of 2012? Ryan still subscribes to that nonsense. Trump merely substituted class for "them" in the form of immigrants and muslims.

Unfortunately there is an underclass in this country that will never meaningfully contribute anything to society. Romneys choice of words was piss poor, but he was right on the money

Their  parents and grandparents contributed nothing and their children and grandchildren won't either

They are stuck in a perpetual cycle of poverty, addiction and crime.....it's all very depressing

That's partially true, but not close to being fiscally the most significant factor. Certainly the fewer people who are chronically dependent on welfare the more fiscal space for investment in growth, jobs, etc. But it's a second order issue.

Demagogues and hard right manipulators of opinion artificially inflate it to first order significance because they understand how it pays off politically to appeal to voters' baser instincts.

FISH - Fear, Ignorance, Stupidity and Hatred are no basis for a rational social and fiscal policy, but they are the stock in trade of the rightist ideologues who would "rather burn down the world than try to live in it like adults"*.

* Laurie Penny.

[whitey]

The thing is rich people have armies of accountants and lawyers and can figure out a way around a lot of taxes. From my viewpoint, instead of lobbying for actual workable reform the Democrats have lobbied  to their base and played the "class warfare card".  E.g. The "rich" aren't paying their "fair share". You're schools suck because that b**tard doesn't pay enough

Instead of reforming the corporate tax rate (which is among the highest in the developed world) so companies actually will pay tax here, instead of running their earnings through a PO Box in Dublin all we hear from the likes of Granny Elizabeth Warren is bullshit about "corporate welfare".  That might win her a few votes, but it doesn't add one penny to the tax take

I've no objection to lowering the corporate tax rate to encourage growth, but how many companies offshore their operations because of it? Will those tech and pharmaceutical companies bring their official tax locations back, or will there always be another country undercutting and setting up as a tax haven for them?

On the class warfare stuff, both parties play that game. Have you forgotten the "takers/makers" nonsense of 2012? Ryan still subscribes to that nonsense. Trump merely substituted class for "them" in the form of immigrants and muslims.

Unfortunately there is an underclass in this country that will never meaningfully contribute anything to society. Romneys choice of words was piss poor, but he was right on the money

Their  parents and grandparents contributed nothing and their children and grandchildren won't either

They are stuck in a perpetual cycle of poverty, addiction and crime.....it's all very depressing

Seriously? Romney was "right on the money"? 47% of the people "contribute" nothing meaningful?

The extent of a person's contribution to society is defined by what they earn and pay in taxes?

What is "meaningful"?

Note: I said contribute to society (I did not say contribute to the exchequer)

One can contribute to society in many positive ways that do not involve paying taxes.

Obeying the law is probably the most obvious

Not taking drugs is another

Not having kids with multiple unsuitable partners would be a third

Raising your kids as best you can would be a fourth

Taking responsibility for your own health would be a fifth

Unfortunately because of the vicious cycle of poverty, criminality and addiction these are easier said than done for many

[J70]

The thing is rich people have armies of accountants and lawyers and can figure out a way around a lot of taxes. From my viewpoint, instead of lobbying for actual workable reform the Democrats have lobbied  to their base and played the "class warfare card".  E.g. The "rich" aren't paying their "fair share". You're schools suck because that b**tard doesn't pay enough

Instead of reforming the corporate tax rate (which is among the highest in the developed world) so companies actually will pay tax here, instead of running their earnings through a PO Box in Dublin all we hear from the likes of Granny Elizabeth Warren is bullshit about "corporate welfare".  That might win her a few votes, but it doesn't add one penny to the tax take

I've no objection to lowering the corporate tax rate to encourage growth, but how many companies offshore their operations because of it? Will those tech and pharmaceutical companies bring their official tax locations back, or will there always be another country undercutting and setting up as a tax haven for them?

On the class warfare stuff, both parties play that game. Have you forgotten the "takers/makers" nonsense of 2012? Ryan still subscribes to that nonsense. Trump merely substituted class for "them" in the form of immigrants and muslims.

Unfortunately there is an underclass in this country that will never meaningfully contribute anything to society. Romneys choice of words was piss poor, but he was right on the money

Their  parents and grandparents contributed nothing and their children and grandchildren won't either

They are stuck in a perpetual cycle of poverty, addiction and crime.....it's all very depressing

Seriously? Romney was "right on the money"? 47% of the people "contribute" nothing meaningful?

The extent of a person's contribution to society is defined by what they earn and pay in taxes?

What is "meaningful"?

Note: I said contribute to society (I did not say contribute to the exchequer)

One can contribute to society in many positive ways that do not involve paying taxes.

Obeying the law is probably the most obvious

Not taking drugs is another

Not having kids with multiple unsuitable partners would be a third

Raising your kids as best you can would be a fourth

Taking responsibility for your own health would be a fifth

Unfortunately because of the vicious cycle of poverty, criminality and addiction these are easier said than done for many

And the 47% thing??

[J70]

Romney's words:

There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. That's an entitlement. The government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what. And I mean the president starts off with 48, 49... he starts off with a huge number. These are people who pay no income tax. Forty-seven percent of Americans pay no income tax. So our message of low taxes doesn't connect. So he'll be out there talking about tax cuts for the rich. ... My job is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives. What I have to do is convince the 5–10% in the center that are independents, that are thoughtful, that look at voting one way or the other depending upon in some cases emotion, whether they like the guy or not.

[seafoid]

Romney's words:

There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, who believe that they are victims, who believe the government has a responsibility to care for them, who believe that they are entitled to health care, to food, to housing, to you-name-it. That's an entitlement. The government should give it to them. And they will vote for this president no matter what. And I mean the president starts off with 48, 49... he starts off with a huge number. These are people who pay no income tax. Forty-seven percent of Americans pay no income tax. So our message of low taxes doesn't connect. So he'll be out there talking about tax cuts for the rich. ... My job is not to worry about those people. I'll never convince them they should take personal responsibility and care for their lives. What I have to do is convince the 5–10% in the center that are independents, that are thoughtful, that look at voting one way or the other depending upon in some cases emotion, whether they like the guy or not.

Trump targeted a lot of those people, unlke Romney