The Many Faces of US Politics...

[The Iceman]

Stew you say you're not bitter but you have come out with a litany of insults and name calling. You're an angry wee man.
I think it's illegal but it doesnt mean I can't have sympathy for the lads stuck in the middle.

[heganboy]

Stew,
Sorry to hear that you won't engage here. I think your view on immigration is far too black and white. There are grey areas. There are many many cases when it is in my opinion morally right to be in a country illegally. Any country.

I don't believe my view is warped or hypocritical and I would love to hear why you think it is.

Your view on tax is also odd to me. Should big business be taxed? Absolutely! Want to go check what percentage the biggest earning companies in the US pay in tax, and let me know if you think that number is good for the US economy, or if that supports the trickle down regeneration of the economy being peddled by politicians.

Also your assertion on "obamacare" crippling the economy? Where do you get your information? I see like myself you don't really fancy either party in the US right now, Paul Ryan's mythical budget plan and Mitt Romneys assertions of what he will do in office will hugely increase the deficit here. And actually cripple the middle class here in the US, and in turn make the climb out of his current shitty economy even more unlikely in the short term.

And your data on illegals paying tax is wrong, they are a significant net payer to the US thereby reducing your tax bill

Healthy debate is a good thing, mud slinging helps no one. Be good to have you back...

[theticklemister]

I dunno about the rest of ye there but I see these 'illlegals' as part of the human race and I treat everyone the same, no matter race or creed. They would not be coming over to these countries if they did not have such a poor life in the country of their birth. Treat others as you wish to be treated yourself.
We are blessed to be born here in such a place where the standard of living is good and have a brighter life ahead of us compared to other unfortunate souls.

[Eamonnca1]

I pay my taxes and I hope they get deported, why should I help them on their way to giving nothing and taking everything, answer me that.

Illegals in America do harder work in a day than you'll do in a year.  They pay taxes in the form of payroll taxes and sales taxes on everything they buy.  If it wasn't for them you'd have to add about 10% to the cost of all the food you buy (because white people in America consider picking food out of the fields to be beneath them) and you wouldn't have the option of staying in hotel rooms at such affordable prices.

This idea that people flood into America for the "generous" welfare system is nothing short of a racist myth. In case you hadn't noticed, America has the most porous social safety net in the developed world. People come to America to work because of the opportunity that it offers anyone willing to work for a better life.

It's all right saying that illegals should be "just" deported, but unless you can think of an efficient enough system that's going to process 10 million people (and build an impregnable iron curtain across the USA's 1,969 mile southern border) without bankrupting the state, I'm afraid that's just not going to happen.

Is it "wrong" to enter a country illegally?  "Wrong" is a point of view.  In my book, something is "wrong" if it causes harm.  Smoking pot is illegal, but nobody in their right mind thinks it causes any more harm than the perfectly legal activity of drinking alcohol.  Just because something is illegal doesn't make it harmful.

And you know what else I find interesting? The people who scream the loudest about the evils of undocumented immigrants are usually the same people who worship at the altar of the free market.  A free market usually entails the free movement of goods and labour like they have in the EU.  According to them, supply and demand should determine the cost of goods and labour.  And yet here we have a large number of people willing to move where the work is and work for competitive wages, resulting in higher profits for employers and lower costs for consumers.  Illegal immigration is a libertarian's wet dream.  A de-regulated, non-unionised, low-wage workforce willing to work for a pittance is something that conservatives have been fighting for for years. And along comes a de-regulated, non-unionised, low-wage workforce willing to work for a pittance, but they happen to have dark skin and don't speak English! All traditional conservative free market principles go out the window all of a sudden. Ever notice that?

The people who scream the loudest about the evils of illegal immigration are the same people who hate the federal government interfering in people's lives, and here they are demanding the the federal government step in and interfere in this free market of labour.  Nice consistency there, conservatives.

Let's face it, folks. There are plenty of laws that get broken day after day, and conservatives don't usually give a toss about many of them (particularly white collar thievery).  But when it comes to a completely arbitrary law about paperwork that involves dark-skinned people entering white territory in big numbers, suddenly the enforcement of this law and the proper procedure for complying with bureaucratic requirements becomes a top priority, and conservatives get themselves worked up into gun-toting hysteria over it.  We all know what's really going on. We all know what this is really about, and it's not about a sudden devotion to complying with the regulations set down by the federal government.

It's all about the George Zimmerman doctrine. "I think the black guy's up to no good."

[stew]

I dunno about the rest of ye there but I see these 'illlegals' as part of the human race and I treat everyone the same, no matter race or creed. They would not be coming over to these countries if they did not have such a poor life in the country of their birth. Treat others as you wish to be treated yourself.
We are blessed to be born here in such a place where the standard of living is good and have a brighter life ahead of us compared to other unfortunate souls.

Ok, I am going to respond to the above post and heganboy.

Nobody see's these illegal people as less than human or less than equal to us on here, not one of us.

They come to the US in their droves from Ireland, they come illegally and the standard of liv ing is already good as you say, how do you justify that?

We also treat everyone the same, why wouldnt we?

Strange post.

[Eamonnca1]

[theticklemister]

I dunno about the rest of ye there but I see these 'illlegals' as part of the human race and I treat everyone the same, no matter race or creed. They would not be coming over to these countries if they did not have such a poor life in the country of their birth. Treat others as you wish to be treated yourself.
We are blessed to be born here in such a place where the standard of living is good and have a brighter life ahead of us compared to other unfortunate souls.

Ok, I am going to respond to the above post and heganboy.

Nobody see's these illegal people as less than human or less than equal to us on here, not one of us.

They come to the US in their droves from Ireland, they come illegally and the standard of liv ing is already good as you say, how do you justify that?

We also treat everyone the same, why wouldnt we?

Strange post.

In one of yer posts earlier you stated ' I wouldn't socialise with illegals' a bit like the parable of the leper...... (On the phonephone here and couldn't be arsed to quote, but will do when I hit a desktop)

[Puckoon]

I find it sad that Irishmen can't debate the real issues of American politics without stopping to the media driven spin and name calling that pollutes the discourse over here. Just because a man does not personally agree with illegal immigration (the key is in the illegal part) does not make him a white collar conservative in a fit of gun toting hysteria. Similarly - just because a man feels genuine sympathy for illegal immigrants in trouble, or thinking that they have to leave their homes - doesn't make him a bleeding heart liberal. I'd ask you all to wind your necks in with the insulting tagging - maybe take a leaf out of HB's book and see how posting, while addressing the issues and easing up on the insults can be done.

American politics is ruined by Americans.

EDIT: By the way, we are all hypocrites - despite our best intentions. There are very few Ghandis out there.

[stew]

Stew,
Sorry to hear that you won't engage here. I think your view on immigration is far too black and white. There are grey areas. There are many many cases when it is in my opinion morally right to be in a country illegally. Any country.

You deserve a response, here it is!

I don't believe my view is warped or hypocritical and I would love to hear why you think it is.

You see shades of grey when  there are none, people that come into a country illegally are wrong, no shades of grey, they are not welcome and they are a drain on the economy and they have no right to be here, you seem to be a decent sort but yet you condone keeping non tax paying illegals around, no doubt you have friends that are illegal near you and that could warp your perspective, that aside this shades of grey shite sickens me when it comes down to a yes or no answer, it is not ok to enter a country illegally.

Your view on tax is also odd to me. Should big business be taxed? Absolutely! Want to go check what percentage the biggest earning companies in the US pay in tax, and let me know if you think that number is good for the US economy, or if that supports the trickle down regeneration of the economy being peddled by politicians.

I know it is am disgrace and it is to the eternal shame of the tea party morons that they condone this mickey mouse taxation, here's the rub, the democrats have let it happen or at worst have done nothing to prevent it from continuing.


Also your assertion on "obamacare" crippling the economy? Where do you get your information? I see like myself you don't really fancy either party in the US right now, Paul Ryan's mythical budget plan and Mitt Romneys assertions of what he will do in office will hugely increase the deficit here. And actually cripple the middle class here in the US, and in turn make the climb out of his current shitty economy even more unlikely in the short term.

That is your spin on it based on it, my spin on it is that Obama has moved the goalposts on this so many times they dont know what it will cost, what they do know is that the country cannot afford it.

And your data on illegals paying tax is wrong, they are a significant net payer to the US thereby reducing your tax bill

Healthy debate is a good thing, mud slinging helps no one. Be good to have you back...

There are no grey area's on this, it is black and white, you have either gone through the proper channels are you have decided to emigrate illegally and into a country that has not said you are welcome, that is wrong!

How are you to declare to the yanks what is morally right?

Are the Illegals morally right to take and not gave back via taxation?

You are being hypocritical hegan by the fact you condone the fact that illegal immigrants should be allowed to break the law, you seem to be a stand up guy yet you care nothing about the laws of the land that allowed you to come here the right way, surely the Americans should be allowed to enforce the laws of their land just like the Irish and the Brits etc?
You also seem to not care that many of these people do not pay taxes, just like decco1 why is that?

I am also a hypocrite, many years ago when we first moved to the states we had a lad from Armagh come to us and asked if he could stay with us, I let him and he stayed for two months, he lived off of us, never bought so much as a loaf of bread and after I kicked him out for doing drugs in the house all he did was bad mouth me to friends back home, he was illegal and I knew it at the time and for that I am as bad, if not worse as some of ye.

[dec]

You also seem to not care that many of these people do not pay taxes, just like decco1 why is that?

Where did I say that I don't care that many of these people do not pay taxes? I simply mentioned that employers also get away with paying less because they employ illegal workers. And that set you off on a rant.

Obviously you don't care that employers pay less, in many cases pay no employment taxes and get away with a host of other employment law violations because they employ people illegally.

[Eamonnca1]

I find it sad that Irishmen can't debate the real issues of American politics without stopping to the media driven spin and name calling that pollutes the discourse over here. Just because a man does not personally agree with illegal immigration (the key is in the illegal part) does not make him a white collar conservative in a fit of gun toting hysteria. Similarly - just because a man feels genuine sympathy for illegal immigrants in trouble, or thinking that they have to leave their homes - doesn't make him a bleeding heart liberal. I'd ask you all to wind your necks in with the insulting tagging - maybe take a leaf out of HB's book and see how posting, while addressing the issues and easing up on the insults can be done.

American politics is ruined by Americans.

EDIT: By the way, we are all hypocrites - despite our best intentions. There are very few Ghandis out there.

Sorry, but you only have to scratch the surface to see the racism behind the anti-immigrant hysteria.

[stew]

I pay my taxes and I hope they get deported, why should I help them on their way to giving nothing and taking everything, answer me that.

Illegals in America do harder work in a day than you'll do in a year.  They pay taxes in the form of payroll taxes and sales taxes on everything they buy.  If it wasn't for them you'd have to add about 10% to the cost of all the food you buy (because white people in America consider picking food out of the fields to be beneath them) and you wouldn't have the option of staying in hotel rooms at such affordable prices.

How the fcuk do you know that? girl, you dont know shit! what do I do for a living eamon? riddle me this!

Why are you bringing people of color to the table here, it has feck all to do with color, are all white people the devil eamon? is that the way your momma brought you up?

This idea that people flood into America for the "generous" welfare system is nothing short of a racist myth. In case you hadn't noticed, America has the most porous social safety net in the developed world. People come to America to work because of the opportunity that it offers anyone willing to work for a better life.

great, now did they spend the money, fill in the same paperwork and wait the same length as me and others like puck and hegan on here to get here? do they spend the same in taxes?

It's all right saying that illegals should be "just" deported, but unless you can think of an efficient enough system that's going to process 10 million people (and build an impregnable iron curtain across the USA's 1,969 mile southern border) without bankrupting the state, I'm afraid that's just not going to happen.

I think they should be deported, they should not have been here in the first place, i also think that they should have the right to spend their money to apply for Visas and that they should get serious consideration if they kept their noses clean, if they had children that were born here then if, they left and went back they should get in based on the childs basic human right to live in a free society in the country it was born in.


Is it "wrong" to enter a country illegally?  "Wrong" is a point of view.  In my book, something is "wrong" if it causes harm.  Smoking pot is illegal, but nobody in their right mind thinks it causes any more harm than the perfectly legal activity of drinking alcohol.  Just because something is illegal doesn't make it harmful.

"wrong is a point of view" what liberal bullshit rock are you crawling under, it is the rule of law that matters, the rule of law says they are not to be in the country, not stews rule, the rule of law that dictates a man's right to be here or not.

To compare pot to illegal immigration is ridiculous and not worth responding to.

And you know what else I find interesting? The people who scream the loudest about the evils of undocumented immigrants are usually the same people who worship at the altar of the free market.  A free market usually entails the free movement of goods and labour like they have in the EU.  According to them, supply and demand should determine the cost of goods and labour.  And yet here we have a large number of people willing to move where the work is and work for competitive wages, resulting in higher profits for employers and lower costs for consumers.  Illegal immigration is a libertarian's wet dream.  A de-regulated, non-unionised, low-wage workforce willing to work for a pittance is something that conservatives have been fighting for for years. And along comes a de-regulated, non-unionised, low-wage workforce willing to work for a pittance, but they happen to have dark skin and don't speak English! All traditional conservative free market principles go out the window all of a sudden. Ever notice that?

Ah the rant of the day, racism, hatred of unions, dark skinned illegals, such an emotive, ill thought out load of drivel that has nothing to do with what anyone else has posted but hey, liberals good, love everybody and conservatives bad, hate blacks, union workers etc......do you actually believe this shite you spout? God I hope not.

I have belonged to two unions and found one of them to be strong and another to be useless and corrupt. The first one I was a member of was in Armagh, I was on strike for 7 weeks and never broke the picket line once, plenty did, I did not and in the end we prevailed.

Unions are corrupt, they are absolutely corrupt in many, many cases, in Detroit you had line workers making 70K plus on assembly lines and when GM asked them to take pay cuts or lose their jobs they fecking voted to lose their jobs, define insanity liberals?

The people who scream the loudest about the evils of illegal immigration are the same people who hate the federal government interfering in people's lives, and here they are demanding the the federal government step in and interfere in this free market of labour.  Nice consistency there, conservatives.

The federal government should be out to protect the USA, you cant do that by letting illegals run all over the f**king place. Everyone in this country should pay taxes, the rich, the poor, every f**king person, end of.

Let's face it, folks. There are plenty of laws that get broken day after day, and conservatives don't usually give a toss about many of them (particularly white collar thievery).  But when it comes to a completely arbitrary law about paperwork that involves dark-skinned people entering white territory in big numbers, suddenly the enforcement of this law and the proper procedure for complying with bureaucratic requirements becomes a top priority, and conservatives get themselves worked up into gun-toting hysteria over it.  We all know what's really going on. We all know what this is really about, and it's not about a sudden devotion to complying with the regulations set down by the federal government.

Are you a racist sir? you seem to be obsessed with color and are very hard on the white man, just an observation!

It's all about the George Zimmerman doctrine. "I think the black guy's up to no good."

I guess you are!

[stew]

Nice chart, it means shit all and has a nice screaming liberal taste to it but I am sure it is accurate given the source.

[stew]

You also seem to not care that many of these people do not pay taxes, just like decco1 why is that?

Where did I say that I don't care that many of these people do not pay taxes? I simply mentioned that employers also get away with paying less because they employ illegal workers. And that set you off on a rant.

Obviously you don't care that employers pay less, in many cases pay no employment taxes and get away with a host of other employment law violations because they employ people illegally.

Yet you failed to mention the workers themselves, I believe them to be equally culpuble, both should be paying their way and to be honest I think the guy that employs them should be fined for taking advantage of them and should have to pay their ticket home and processing fees to come back, Al Capone and all that!

[stew]

I find it sad that Irishmen can't debate the real issues of American politics without stopping to the media driven spin and name calling that pollutes the discourse over here. Just because a man does not personally agree with illegal immigration (the key is in the illegal part) does not make him a white collar conservative in a fit of gun toting hysteria. Similarly - just because a man feels genuine sympathy for illegal immigrants in trouble, or thinking that they have to leave their homes - doesn't make him a bleeding heart liberal. I'd ask you all to wind your necks in with the insulting tagging - maybe take a leaf out of HB's book and see how posting, while addressing the issues and easing up on the insults can be done.

American politics is ruined by Americans.

EDIT: By the way, we are all hypocrites - despite our best intentions. There are very few Ghandis out there.

Sorry, but you only have to scratch the surface to see the racism behind the anti-immigrant hysteria.

eamon, your last name is not McCarthy by any chance??

I see a conspiracy everywhere eamon, is that it just under the screen of me computer screen?

I call a spade a spade, I am no racist and i resent being called one by an ill informed git who presumes to know me.