The Many Faces of US Politics...

[Tyrones own]

America was done long before Obama came to power. It's a bit daft giving much thought to a company like Standard & Poors considering they gave Lehman Brothers a Triple A rating right up to the moment they went bankrupt. explain that Tyrone. The system was rotten to the core long, long ago. America was rotten to the core. Nothing to do with Obama. He was left with a mess that won't be fixed for a long time. Maybe never. America is a country with too many rich white guys playing golf in places like Scottsdale. Living off their wealth and not putting anything back to the system except complaining about taxes and big government. The country has stagnated. There's a few exceptions like the tech sector but that bubble will blow up soon.

Only the truth shall set you free;
http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=cMnSp4qEXNM&NR=1
Explain that

[Tyrones own]

lets do this point by point:

Point 1.
my opinion is that tax policy in the US is asinine, personal and corporate taxes both. In particular the taxes on the highest earners i.e. zero personal tax. How can you justify a hedge fund manager taking home $30M but paying zero tax on that income? How can you justify an american company bringing in $19 Billion dollars in profit yet paying no tax in the US (Exxon, in fact received a $150Million dollar tax rebate see rest of list below) . 57% of companies in the US have gone without paying tax for a year in the last 8 tax years. Tax on fuel further screws up the economy, and the corporation taxes here in the US are boosting foreign economies not the US domestic economy. As for standard and poors, I have read the report, and I have been reading reports from them every day for 10 years, I have kept some of their better ones, Lehman triple A ratings, AIG triple A ratings, US mortgage backed securities, CDOs. McGraw-Hill is a publishing company, some fiction, some non fiction.

Credit rating is based on the likelihood of a default on debt. The debt ceiling brinkmanship that played out over the last few weeks showed that there was a strong likelihood that American politicians of all backgrounds would allow the country to default on its loans.

Your opinion is the spending is the issue, no matter how clearly you state it, its still an opinion. You have however compared the US economy to a household in the past, so allow me to have a different opinion. Spending is certainly a problem, (how would stopping two wars/ military campaigns impact that spending), however it is over shadowed by the lack of taxation that are applied to certain sections of business and certain types of income. If it were as simple as you seem to see it- why doesn't everyone move to Delaware?

The public perception of this issue in the US is influenced by politicians, and that means soundbites and cherry picking of issues that they know will resonate. It doesn't suit a politician who wants to get elected to say "our tax code is a steaming pile of shite so we'll have to rewrite it" or "the spending commitments we have agreed to in order to get all these crappy bills passed that we scare mongered folks into supporting are complete bullshit and we basically bought votes in both houses by sticking this crap in there, but I got re-elected last time so who cares?" However look at the press and support you receive when you say "we're spending too much when I'm in power I'll spend less"

I am very happy to hear that you agree with cutting spending, but if you don't have a view on what taxation policy should be to pay for the spending that you do happen to agree with. Or maybe if you can cite one example of cutting government spending to stimulate an economy, or maybe cite a theory as to how this time its going to be different (remember no promising change..) then I'll be more than happy to hear your thoughts on the matter.

Point number 2.
Liberalism is not democratic US politics, nor is it GOP. I may be a liberal but I fail to see why gay marriage being legalized in New York has anything to do with tax policy. I would also argue strongly that on this issue that I'm not the one with his head buried in the sand (or over simplifying). Also raising taxes, as we have all seen over the last few weeks, has very little to do with the President, that would be a congressional issue, but as previously don't let the facts or logic get in the way of your point. or alternatively throw in yet another complete irrelevance into the discussion to "prove your point". For the record my line of work is at least 95% republican, and where I live although liberal in most senses of the word also votes consistently republican. And without trying to cast aspersions on your detective skills, and things being lost on you (the irony) who else from New York (or Chicago assuming you now allow that the President of the USA wasn't born in Kenya) is advocating tax increases, and who from outside of those areas (other than your good self) is advocating tax reductions?

Point 3.
you asked me to explain why it didn't make sense to me, but now apparently its about a sense of humor? And seeking truth in poetry? I do pay tax, I have a nice little accountant who works out exactly what I owe, and then I write 3 checks, one to NJ, one to NY and one to the IRS. All of them will send you back a check for the difference if you pay more than you owe just for future reference.
Now maybe you answer the questions
1. What do you think that tax levels should be in the US?
2. And what do you think people should pay taxes on?
3. What do you think corporations and businesses should pay taxes on?

While you're at it, can tell me what cause this is you're referring to and why I'm full of shite? ( because the dumb answer will get a reply asking you to write a check for less than you owe( assuming you actually pay tax)and then take your case to the supreme court- let me know how you get on with that...)

Or maybe you can come back with something other than a little sound bite without logic, reasoning or any basic economic common sense. Accuse me of being something or other, sympathizing with someone or other (and their ilk), disparaging remark about the president or another member of the democratic party who you seem to assume I have some allegiance to. Diversionary tactics wont be entertained either.

And food for thought, as you seem annoyed at being in the top 50% of tax payers and seem very pissed at having to subsidize that 50% that earn less than $47,000 per family per year. Spare a thought for the poor buggers that earn more than $380,00 per family per year who pay more tax than everyone who earns less than $160,000 combined even with this tax system. Its a cruel world after all...

List of non tax paying US companies:
1) Exxon Mobil made $19 billion in profits in 2009. Exxon not only paid no federal income taxes, it actually received a $156 million rebate from the IRS, according to its SEC filings.

2) Bank of America received a $1.9 billion tax refund from the IRS last year, although it made $4.4 billion in profits and received a bailout from the Federal Reserve and the Treasury Department of nearly $1 trillion.

3) Over the past five years, while General Electric made $26 billion in profits in the United States, it received a $4.1 billion refund from the IRS.

4) Chevron received a $19 million refund from the IRS last year after it made $10 billion in profits in 2009.

5) Boeing, which received a $30 billion contract from the Pentagon to build 179 airborne tankers, got a $124 million refund from the IRS last year.

6) Valero Energy, the 25th largest company in America with $68 billion in sales last year received a $157 million tax refund check from the IRS and, over the past three years, it received a $134 million tax break from the oil and gas manufacturing tax deduction.

7) Goldman Sachs in 2008 only paid 1.1 percent of its income in taxes even though it earned a profit of $2.3 billion and received an almost $800 billion from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury Department.

8 ) Citigroup last year made more than $4 billion in profits but paid no federal income taxes. It received a $2.5 trillion bailout from the Federal Reserve and U.S. Treasury.

9) ConocoPhillips, the fifth largest oil company in the United States, made $16 billion in profits from 2007 through 2009, but received $451 million in tax breaks through the oil and gas manufacturing deduction.

10) Over the past five years, Carnival Cruise Lines made more than $11 billion in profits, but its federal income tax rate during those years was just 1.1 percent.

I had my doubts about the quality of the education that i got at SPCA but they seem to have done a good job on you, lad from just south of portydown. That was a tremedous post ... maybe Mr. Tir Own Own will actually read it and wind his nexk in.

No harm to you but I wouldn't be blowing about the education that played any part in teaching you to spell

[heganboy]

Interesting piece in rolling stone on Fox News' "Chairman" Roger Ailes, the mission of founding Fox News and how their news/editorial line blurring is one of the biggest open secrets in the business.

Caution, this piece will either confirm everything you thought, or it will confirm the left wing media's anti Fox mission, unlikely to make any new converts...

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/how-roger-ailes-built-the-fox-news-fear-factory-20110525

[Tyrones own]

If the Rolling Stone was any further left they'd be on the right FFS
It's well seen that the election season is just around the corner so
out come the Alinsky tactics again;

Rule # 1 Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)

Rule # 2  "Keep the pressure on. Never let up." Keep trying new things to keep the opposition off balance. As the opposition masters one approach, hit them from the flank with something new. (Attack, attack, attack from all sides, never giving the reeling organization a chance to rest, regroup, recover and re-strategize.)

Rule # 3 "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon." There is no defense. It's irrational. It's infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions. (Pretty crude, rude and mean, huh? They want to create anger and fear.)

Rule #4  "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy." Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)

Obummer clearly has his back against the wall with the state of this economy and the left are simply left with the only option they know best ...attacking Fox  The number one cable news network for ten years and counting 

[Oraisteach]

Pass the smelling salts, TO, but you actually presented something lucid and accurate.  Those four italicized points are a succinct synopsis of right wing tactics towards Obama in particular and Democratic policies in particular.  In fact, you use them yourself on this board all the time.

And this, again, is where I think the moderators on this site have a significant role to play, as referees in a wrestling match.  TO, you have been pinned more times than the Kardashian sisters, but you're like the Energizer bunny, you just keep going (see Rule #2). Heganboy not only nailed both of your shoulders to the mat, he pushed you through the floorboars into the basement. Time to submit, but in the spirit of an all-too-familiar right wing entity, your true political ancestor, you'll proclainm "No Surrender."

And as you scrape yourself off the mat, would you please answer his questions and not resort to the tactic referred to parenthetically in Rule #4?

[Tyrones own]

Pinned to the floor...I don't think so 
Ye lads have the better part of 5 yrs into trying to get that done 
Anyway, getting to his questions...I didn't write the
Tax code, so why don't you direct those questions to
Obummer's main man Timmy the tax cheat and see how you get on.

My point is, what's being overlooked here is that even
if we were to forget completely about the tax that we think should be paid
on those earnings for a minute and take 100% of those profits combined
It wouldn't cover the deficit spending here for two years...then what happens
next year when said companies say fcuk you, we're out of here!
It's pathetic that some of you idiots can't see past the end of your own noses

So in closing, do I believe the tax code needs changing and tightening up,
of course! But to stick your head in the sand and say that raising taxes
is the answer to this and that spending isn't completely out of control
here is insanity imo!
Now, why don't you enlighten us as to how my list on a previous page isn't enough and that we should add to it,  it seems to me that you would rather sweep this point under the carpet and continue to hammer on about Corporations and personal income taxes....cause that's where it stops right? 

[Tyrones own]

I see he's taken off on vacation to Martha's Vineyard too while the house burns down around us here, that in itself would normally piss me off in highlighting a complete lack of leadership, but actually it's great for the country when he fcuks off out of town...he's not around to fcuk anything up for a week or is it nine days !
The stock market should rebound nicely in his absence

[Oraisteach]

So, TO, it's Iowa Straw Poll time.  Who's your preferred presidential choice?

[Tyrones own]

To be honest I'm quite undecided at this early stage, didn't even get to watch
the debate last night but have it DVR'd... very busy this weather 

[Eamonnca1]

Who is looking like winning the Republican nomination next year?

Does Sarah Palin have a chance or will they go for someone more moderate like Mitt Romney Genghis Khan?

Fixed that for you

[Tyrones own]

For those wondering who this Joe Scarborough (MSNBC) that TO is crowing about is, he is a former hard right Republican congressman and Clinton hater. Has moderated his vitriol since landing his tv/radio gig, but liberal equivalent of Limbaugh or Hannity he ain't, MSNBC or not.

Ah typical...the auld damage control out in force trying to down play it!
fair and balanced MSNBC most Definitely is not and Mr Scarborough is very well suited to it!
Nice try though

I see, so Scarborough's a liberal now, is he??!

Well those who are interested can do their own research.

Regardless, I've made no comment on his statement anyway. Just pointing out to those who don't get MSNBC what Scarborough in fact is, and that he is NOT a liberal commentator, as your "MSNBC no less" comment implied.

As for MSNBC itself, there's a reason I don't watch a station that is trying to be the liberal equivalent of Fox, but I will at least give them credit for having a conservative commentator as their primary morning host. Unless things have changed recently, there is no equivalent on "we report, you decide" Fox.

Ok then here's another of a long list of once faithful followers
...I suppose she's a conservative also 

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/08/10/opinion/withholder-in-chief.xml

Anyone happen to See J around 

[heganboy]

With apologies to those bored of this already you get yet another point by point

I didn't write the
Tax code, so why don't you direct those questions to
Obummer's main man Timmy the tax cheat and see how you get on.

Geithner didnt write the tax code either, the tax code is Congress' responsibility (in case you missed it TO that is the Republican controlled Congress)

point 2:

My point is, what's being overlooked here is that even
if we were to forget completely about the tax that we think should be paid
on those earnings for a minute and take 100% of those profits combined
It wouldn't cover the deficit spending here for two years...then what happens
next year when said companies say fcuk you, we're out of here!
It's pathetic that some of you idiots can't see past the end of your own noses

that's ten firms, could I suggest you take a look at the Wilshire 5000 current market cap 15.9 trillion dollars, thats greater than the entire national debt ( no rush- I know you're too busy to even catch up with the dream team in Iowa)

And not forgetting

So in closing, do I believe the tax code needs changing and tightening up,
of course!

There's progress- not something one often associates with the far right, but every little helps, and it wasn't really in closing either...

But to stick your head in the sand and say that raising taxes
is the answer to this and that spending isn't completely out of control
here is insanity imo!

I understand that your opinion is that this is insanity, however I have tried to explain that the economy actually needs to increase revenue (taxes collected) cut the stupid spending (congressional and house pork, dumb programs and dumb vote getting spending) and spend government money to stimulate the economy.
Insanity is trying to do anything other than those three things (all of them by the way no cherry picking)

And last but certainly not least:

Now, why don't you enlighten us as to how my list on a previous page isn't enough and that we should add to it,  it seems to me that you would rather sweep this point under the carpet and continue to hammer on about Corporations and personal income taxes....cause that's where it stops right? 

Unsurprising that you did actually end up going with the irrelevant counter punch, you were doing so well up until now. Your list from the 2009 email chain which in fact misses about 300 different taxes is completely irrelevant to this topic. You would be as well listing all of the different items that you spend money on in your weekly budget and putting beside each the federal, state, local and special agency taxes (for the record thats the list of bodies that can collect tax in the US (legally))

The issue is not the individual tax on each item, but rather the effective level of tax. Could I suggest you write your local member of congress (or favored candidate when you get time to watch the DVR) and ask their view on the appropriate effective level of tax they would suggest for a balanced budget, and also what they think that the federal budget annualized spend should be, and what they are proposing to do to ensure that they balance, or even, heaven forbid, have a budget surplus. Other than Ron Paul, no Republican candidate actually has an economic policy that holds water, and its not just the candidates, the leader of the Republican party in Congress miscounted his fix it plan by 350Billion (thats close to those 10 companies' profits just for reference) and that was 30% of his entire project- Thirty percent out when you're adding up is incredible- he actually had gone so far as to have the bill printed for the vote when the (non party) congressional budget commitee said "Ummm, excuse me Mr Boehner, can I see the back of your prayer book where you added these up? I've a feeling you may have been double counting". Missing by that much takes effort.

p.s I know those sentences were way to long but English at SPCA wasn't a strong suit.

Back to you...

[Tyrones own]

Geithner didnt write the tax code either, the tax code is Congress' responsibility (in case you missed it TO that is the Republican controlled Congress)

And the Republican Congress did? In all seven months that they've had control as Secretary of the Treasury, he's in charge of the IRS, right? I'm sure he could explain why the code is the way it is, and anyway, why stop there...what about Pelosi in the two years prior to that, what did she and the Democrats who had complete control of all three branches of Government do to curb these injustices that favor Corps and the so called wealthy 

that's ten firms, could I suggest you take a look at the Wilshire 5000 current market cap 15.9 trillion dollars, thats greater than the entire national debt

Yes ten firms that wouldn't be around next year to be cleaned again...and that trend would continue But that's not important for the here and now in sticking it to the Man, is it 

however I have tried to explain that the economy actually needs to increase revenue (taxes collected) cut the stupid spending (congressional and house pork, dumb programs and dumb vote getting spending) and spend government money to stimulate the economy.
Insanity is trying to do anything other than those three things (all of them by the way no cherry picking)

No cherry picking....  Where exactly have you advocated Cutting spending, I must have missed that

Insanity is trying to do anything other than those three things

No actually it's; "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results"
Which these bunch of inept buffoons in this administration would do well to read very slowly.
Raising taxes with the economy in the doldrums and especially with the unemployment situation the way
it is, makes absolutely no sense whatsoever 
As a matter of fact, the inept policies for this empty suit is actually infact putting a strangle hold on any kick start to a recovery,
business owners and employers across the board have no idea what he's liable to come up with next and are sitting on the sidelines.

Unsurprising that you did actually end up going with the irrelevant counter punch, you were doing so well up until now. Your list from the 2009 email chain which in fact misses about 300 different taxes is completely irrelevant to this topic. You would be as well listing all of the different items that you spend money on in your weekly budget and putting beside each the federal, state, local and special agency taxes (for the record thats the list of bodies that can collect tax in the US (legally))

The issue is not the individual tax on each item, but rather the effective level of tax. Could I suggest you write your local member of congress (or favored candidate when you get time to watch the DVR) and ask their view on the appropriate effective level of tax they would suggest for a balanced budget, and also what they think that the federal budget annualized spend should be, and what they are proposing to do to ensure that they balance, or even, heaven forbid, have a budget surplus. Other than Ron Paul, no Republican candidate actually has an economic policy that holds water, and its not just the candidates, the leader of the Republican party in Congress miscounted his fix it plan by 350Billion (thats close to those 10 companies' profits just for reference) and that was 30% of his entire project- Thirty percent out when you're adding up is incredible- he actually had gone so far as to have the bill printed for the vote when the (non party) congressional budget commitee said "Ummm, excuse me Mr Boehner, can I see the back of your prayer book where you added these up? I've a feeling you may have been double counting". Missing by that much takes effort.

Irrelevant...Irrelevant,  you're joking right, How on Earth is the fact that we're nickel and dimed to death here with taxes irrelevant...the only irrelevance here as far as I can see is the fact that it simply doesn't suit the agenda of the tax, print, borrow and spend, spend, spend Democrats. Wise up FFS 
Now who's cherry picking what's relevant and what's not when the conversation of taxes comes up 

Oh and on the Balanced budget... What exactly have the Democrats or Obummer himself for that matter put forward toward a balancing the budget,
the Senate hasn't passed one in over 830 days. Even President Obama's last CLUELESS and utterly RIDICULOUS budget proposal went down in FLAMES 97-0 without even a SINGLE DEMOCRAT VOTE. 

[heganboy]

TO
even though it isn't Fox any chance your watching 60 minutes right now?

[Tyrones own]

No I'm about 3 hrs behind the golf live here on CBS,
no doubt you'll fill me in if it's exciting enough for you
to ask me