Welcome to Stoneyford

[Donagh]

Of course it's true your holiness because unionist identity and culture is essentially based on sectarianism.

That's extremely inaccurate. Some strands of unionism have been and are. To speak personally, my own unionism is based on support for the Union, the fact that I identify with the British state and people(s), and the fact that Northern Ireland is my country and Britishness is my nationality.

Well it's can't be extremely inaccurate if you admit in the next line that "Some strands of unionism have been and are" (based on sectarianism).

There is no such thing as unionist ideology

Wrong. Try reading for example Paul Bew's 'Ideology and the Irish Question'.

No thanks, perhaps you would like to outline his main points?

and in lieu of the fact that they no longer (if ever) fit with the modern multicultural British identity,

Two points here. One - who does? If you pick out one strand of modern British identity, inevitably it won't 'fit in' with the rest. And two, multiculturalism (note before anyone tries - this is not associated with multiracialism) is a creed seems to have now been rejected by the establishment and indeed is identified with some of the major problems facing British society.

the only thing they have which identifies them as being different from the natives is their religion.

As ever one little phrase of yours provides a goldmine for challenging.

Firstly, there's that phrase 'the natives' again. (Look at what I said above, folks). An unsubtle effort to paint unionists as supremacist racial bigots, perhaps paint them in the light of a 20th-century white settler in Africa looking down on the Africans? Or do you not see unionists as 'native' to this place, even through they have roots here going back centuries?

Assuming you mean 'nationalists' when you say 'the natives', if you think there are absolutely no cultural differences among communities in Northern Ireland or across the island, then you're daft. And there sure are political differences - the words 'unionist' and 'nationalist' should be a clue...

Okay I can see how that might have been misinterpreted, lets say that in lieu of some sort of unionist ideology I've never heard any unionist politician advocate (but I'll wait on your summary of Bew) the only way a Martian could separate a unionist from the natives is the Church they purport to go to on a Sunday.

Clinging to and emphasising that difference,

Seriously, you really think it's only unionists who do this? Nationalists never talk about 'the nationalist community', or 'the Catholic community', for example? Or indeed point out how much more sectarian themmuns are...?

We're discussing the sectarianism that emanates from the unionist part of the community here. I don't think I ever said that sectarianism doesn't exists within nationalism.

even though most of them will never have darkened the door of a Church

You think most unionists have never been in a church? Really? Where do you get that from?

Okay, let's say rarely ever darken the door of a church. I haven't checked it but I'm sure the Life and Times Survey will back that one up.

Just listen to them on the radio, when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century.

This is another one that seems to have been invented solely based on something concocted in your head. And again, I'm going to have to break it down into several parts, so rich it is for demolition:

1 - You quite regularly hear 'them' on the radio referring to republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists.
2 - You also regularly hear nationalists on the radio talking about Catholics and Protestants. (Indeed there have been planty of cases when the religious label has been inappropriately used by nationalist/republican politicians, e.g. the Shinners claiming that the UUP back in the day wanting a start to IRA decomissioning before Sinn Féin entered the Executive was simply them 'not wanting Catholics in government'.)
3 - Do you seriously believe the rest of the island of Ireland apart from unionists left religious labels back in the 18th century? Have you absolutely no knowledge of Irish history or politics.
4 - Using the label 'Blueshirts' while referring to leaving the 'nonsense' of religious labels back in the past is more than a little ironic. There are Protestants and Catholics in Ireland today. There haven't been Blueshirts for 70 years.

MW, by using the Sammy style of response of breaking every line down into constituent parts you have (as Sammy often does) spectacularly missed the point in a 'can't see the wood for the trees kind of way'. Is that deliberate? I have said that the sectarianism is more prevalent in the unionist section of the community because religion makes up a much greater part of their identity than it does for nationalists and/or republicans. Do you refute that, if so why? And can we not do the Sammy style, and just discuss the thing like grown ups, if nothing else it's a pain in the hole to respond to that approach.

[SammyG]

I have said that the sectarianism is more prevalent in the unionist section of the community because religion makes up a much greater part of their identity than it does for nationalists and/or republicans.

You never said anything of the sort and if you had said it, it would be very easy to refute as it's clearly nonsense. You state (correctly in my view) that most Unionists aren't regular church goers, and then in the same post argue that relegion makes up a great part of their identity. 

[Donagh]

I have said that the sectarianism is more prevalent in the unionist section of the community because religion makes up a much greater part of their identity than it does for nationalists and/or republicans.

You never said anything of the sort and if you had said it, it would be very easy to refute as it's clearly nonsense. You state (correctly in my view) that most Unionists aren't regular church goers, and then in the same post argue that relegion makes up a great part of their identity. 

You're at it again Sammy  . My reply was in the context of the question posed and should be read as such. As for unionists going to Church, not that I really care as it was a side point, but I'm sure the Life and Times survey would say they don't.

[SammyG]

You're at it again Sammy  .

If by it, you mean pointig out that you are not just talking shite but actually contradicting yourself, then yes, I'm at it.

As for unionists going to Church, not that I really care as it was a side point, but I'm sure the Life and Times survey would say they don't.

I've already agreed with you on that point, and pointed out that it completely contradicts your previous point.

[MW]

Of course it's true your holiness because unionist identity and culture is essentially based on sectarianism.

That's extremely inaccurate. Some strands of unionism have been and are. To speak personally, my own unionism is based on support for the Union, the fact that I identify with the British state and people(s), and the fact that Northern Ireland is my country and Britishness is my nationality.

Well it's can't be extremely inaccurate if you admit in the next line that "Some strands of unionism have been and are" (based on sectarianism).

There is no such thing as unionist ideology

Wrong. Try reading for example Paul Bew's 'Ideology and the Irish Question'.

No thanks, perhaps you would like to outline his main points?

and in lieu of the fact that they no longer (if ever) fit with the modern multicultural British identity,

Two points here. One - who does? If you pick out one strand of modern British identity, inevitably it won't 'fit in' with the rest. And two, multiculturalism (note before anyone tries - this is not associated with multiracialism) is a creed seems to have now been rejected by the establishment and indeed is identified with some of the major problems facing British society.

the only thing they have which identifies them as being different from the natives is their religion.

As ever one little phrase of yours provides a goldmine for challenging.

Firstly, there's that phrase 'the natives' again. (Look at what I said above, folks). An unsubtle effort to paint unionists as supremacist racial bigots, perhaps paint them in the light of a 20th-century white settler in Africa looking down on the Africans? Or do you not see unionists as 'native' to this place, even through they have roots here going back centuries?

Assuming you mean 'nationalists' when you say 'the natives', if you think there are absolutely no cultural differences among communities in Northern Ireland or across the island, then you're daft. And there sure are political differences - the words 'unionist' and 'nationalist' should be a clue...

Okay I can see how that might have been misinterpreted, lets say that in lieu of some sort of unionist ideology I've never heard any unionist politician advocate (but I'll wait on your summary of Bew) the only way a Martian could separate a unionist from the natives is the Church they purport to go to on a Sunday.

Clinging to and emphasising that difference,

Seriously, you really think it's only unionists who do this? Nationalists never talk about 'the nationalist community', or 'the Catholic community', for example? Or indeed point out how much more sectarian themmuns are...?

We're discussing the sectarianism that emanates from the unionist part of the community here. I don't think I ever said that sectarianism doesn't exists within nationalism.

even though most of them will never have darkened the door of a Church

You think most unionists have never been in a church? Really? Where do you get that from?

Okay, let's say rarely ever darken the door of a church. I haven't checked it but I'm sure the Life and Times Survey will back that one up.

Just listen to them on the radio, when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century.

This is another one that seems to have been invented solely based on something concocted in your head. And again, I'm going to have to break it down into several parts, so rich it is for demolition:

1 - You quite regularly hear 'them' on the radio referring to republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists.
2 - You also regularly hear nationalists on the radio talking about Catholics and Protestants. (Indeed there have been planty of cases when the religious label has been inappropriately used by nationalist/republican politicians, e.g. the Shinners claiming that the UUP back in the day wanting a start to IRA decomissioning before Sinn Féin entered the Executive was simply them 'not wanting Catholics in government'.)
3 - Do you seriously believe the rest of the island of Ireland apart from unionists left religious labels back in the 18th century? Have you absolutely no knowledge of Irish history or politics.
4 - Using the label 'Blueshirts' while referring to leaving the 'nonsense' of religious labels back in the past is more than a little ironic. There are Protestants and Catholics in Ireland today. There haven't been Blueshirts for 70 years.

MW, by using the Sammy style of response of breaking every line down into constituent parts you have (as Sammy often does) spectacularly missed the point in a 'can't see the wood for the trees kind of way'. Is that deliberate? I have said that the sectarianism is more prevalent in the unionist section of the community because religion makes up a much greater part of their identity than it does for nationalists and/or republicans. Do you refute that, if so why? And can we not do the Sammy style, and just discuss the thing like grown ups, if nothing else it's a pain in the hole to respond to that approach.

OK, I'll go for a 'holistic' reply if you want.

Your argument now seems to be that "sectarianism is more prevalent in the unionist section of the community because religion makes up a much greater part of their identity than it does for nationalists and/or republicans."

So I'll assume that you've now backed off daft hyperbolic claims such as "unionist identity and culture is essentially based on sectarianism" and "when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century". So we'll leave them be with the advice from me that you should advise over-egging your posts so much that it's difficult to see the pudding.

In my experience there is little difference between how unionists and nationalists use the 'religious' labels. Both will talk of Protestant and Catholics. Again in my experience, Protestants and Catholics (political and apolitical alike) are both aware of the part 'religion' plays in their self-identification. Indeed as you say religiosity may well be higher among Catholics. And another point is that Catholics are much more likely to attend faith schools - nothing wrong with the existence of faith schools of course (I'm agnostic and sceptical about the influence of religion at times but fairly libertarian and do think a 'religious' education can provide a decent moral grounding for a youngster) but this provides a strong part of someone's formation of identity.

As for how a Martian landing here would tell unionists apart from 'the natives'* (by which I'm going to assume you mean 'nationalists') - a starting point would be support for or opposition to the Union. Another might be choice of nationality - British or Irish, or indeed both. Ironically enough given your argument, you seem to want to pick out religion as the 'only' difference.

By the way, simply saying 'there's no such thing as unionist ideology' doesn't cut the mustard. And neither am I going to sum up 'Ideogoly and the Irish Question' for you. I'd advise you to read it, and other books such as 'The Uncivil Wars: Ireland Today' (Padraig O'Malley). It helps if you're making your pronouncements from something of an informed standpoint. There various types of unionist ideology you're dismissing with just a wave of the hand. I could just as easily say 'there's no such thing as Irish nationalist ideology' but what meaning would that have?

*I'm going to ask you to quit using that term. I find it offensive - I'm just as 'native' as you are. I was born and brought up here, and my family's roots here go back centuries. You're either using it in a 'racist' way or in some sort of twisted attempt to insert a term that unionists don't use to promote the implication that people like me are akin to a white settler in 18th/20th century Africa and actually do think about 'natives'. We don't.

[MW]

If I may comment on your own deabting style, this little vignette is a demonstration of why it's difficult to deabte with you:

the only thing they have which identifies them as being different from the natives is their religion. Clinging to and emphasising that difference, even though most of them will never have darkened the door of a Church, gives them an identity. Just listen to them on the radio, when the rest of us are talking about republicans, loyalists, unionists, nationalists, Blueshirts etc they are always wedded to the Catholic-Protestant labels even though the rest of the country left such nonsense back in the 18th century.

Seriously, you really think it's only unionists who do this? Nationalists never talk about 'the nationalist community', or 'the Catholic community', for example? Or indeed point out how much more sectarian themmuns are...?

We're discussing the sectarianism that emanates from the unionist part of the community here. I don't think I ever said that sectarianism doesn't exists within nationalism.

You claim unionists, unlike 'the natives' and 'the rest of us', cling to relgious identity and the difference it provides. I point out that, contrary to your claim that they do not, actually nationalists also use religious and communitarian labels, the same ones that show that very difference. You then say we're discussing unionists.

Goalposts moving, much? You brought non-unionists into it to claim a contrast - when you found this claim being contradicated, you pull non-unionists out of it and say "we're" discussing unionists.

You need to make your mind up on there things otherwise we'll only end up debating at cross-purposes.

[Donagh]

Somebody has fallen out with their handler...

Leading loyalist charged with raping 13-year-old girl

Thursday, 29 October 2009
Mark Harbinson, his head covered by his jacket, is escorted from the court by two police officers

Mark Harbinson, his head covered by his jacket, is escorted from the court by two police officers

Prominent loyalist Mark Harbinson has been remanded in custody after being charged with the rape of a 13-year-old girl.

Harbinson (42), from Sheepwalk Road in Stoneyford, faces five charges involving the young girl including possessing indecent photographs of children and sexual touching of a person under 16.

Appearing at Lisburn Magistrates Court yesterday, the court heard Harbinson's home was searched by police on October 23 and mobile phones were seized.

Harbinson was later arrested on October 26 in his vehicle. The young girl was also in the vehicle.

The court heard that eight mobiles were seized altogether during the two incidents.

After examination by police two indecent images were discovered on the mobile phones, the court was told.

During yesterday's hearing an investigating officer said he could connect Harbinson to the charges.

During interviews Harbinson had told police the reason he was with the girl was that he had become "paranoid" following police intervention and that he wanted to speak to the girl to tell her to get a new phone.

It is understood the defendant met the girl at Stoneyford Orange hall through his involvement with a band.

The officer said the investigation was "at a very early stage" but objected to an application for bail due to a number of concerns.

He told District Judge Rosie Watters this included a fear the defendant would attempt to contact the victim or abscond.

A defence solicitor told the court his client "vehemently" denied all the charges, adding that a number of conditions could be set, including a ban on the use of mobile phones, to allow bail.

Judge Watters, however, said that would be "impossible to police". Defence counsel also said he provided the main source of income for his wife and six-month-old son.

An application for bail, however, was denied with Judge Watters describing the charges as "very serious".

Harbinson was remanded in custody to reappear via videolink on the November 24.

[Cúig huaire]

Maybe thats the reason Gregory Campbell wants the death penalty brought back.

[armaghniac]

I find it offensive - I'm just as 'native' as you are. I was born and brought up here, and my family's roots here go back centuries.

Nationalists generally would not dispute your right to be thought of a native. But the planter community continue to refer to themselves as British, centuries after they arrived, identifying themselves as not being normal Irish residents. They eschew normal Irish activities, such as the GAA, on the basis that these are Irish. If you identify with another place rather than the place you live in then you cannot be said to have strong roots here.

[ludermor]

I find it offensive - I'm just as 'native' as you are. I was born and brought up here, and my family's roots here go back centuries.

Nationalists generally would not dispute your right to be thought of a native. But the planter community continue to refer to themselves as British, centuries after they arrived, identifying themselves as not being normal Irish residents. They eschew normal Irish activities, such as the GAA, on the basis that these are Irish. If you identify with another place rather than the place you live in then you cannot be said to have strong roots here.

Like a lot of Irish Americans?

[armaghniac]

Like a lot of Irish Americans?

Irish-Americans of several generations are in no doubt that they are Americans, they don't avoid American sports, burn US flags on bonfires etc. On the contrary they are proud to be US citizens, wherever their heritage.

[WeAreBlueWeAreWhite]

Stoneyford Co.Kilkenny is a nice village maybe they should all move there