Race for the ARAS 2025

[Snapchap]

Sinn Fein are a political party with ideas of leading a government in the Dail. They received more or less the same vote share as FF and FG. How is it possible that they can't put forward a representative candidate of their own?

Surely it would have been tactically crazy for SF to run a candidate? Three reasons:

1.Given transfers will always go from FF to FG and reverse, then a SF candidate will always struggle. Similarly a SF backed candidate like Connolly could very well top the poll on first preferences and lose by a significant margin once the FFG transfers are distributed. Why would SF set themselves up for such a fall?

2. If SF are to have any hope of getting Mary Lou as Taoiseach, they will have to have a broad consensus of the left. This is the first time we have seen the left parties working so closely together and SF stand to gain most from that broad left co-operation/unity. Why would they jeopardise that strategy just to run their own candidate, who would likely not win anyway, for a powerless position?

3. In order to get SFs backing, a red line condition would have been that Connolly (or anyone else) would have to speak enthusiastically in support of a united Ireland in their campaign. Having Irish Unity being addressed and platformed by non-SF candidate only helps them create the impression that momementum is building towards a border poll.

[trileacman]

Sinn Fein are a political party with ideas of leading a government in the Dail. They received more or less the same vote share as FF and FG. How is it possible that they can't put forward a representative candidate of their own?

Surely it would have been tactically crazy for SF to run a candidate? Three reasons:

1.Given transfers will always go from FF to FG and reverse, then a SF candidate will always struggle. Similarly a SF backed candidate like Connolly could very well top the poll on first preferences and lose by a significant margin once the FFG transfers are distributed. Why would SF set themselves up for such a fall?

2. If SF are to have any hope of getting Mary Lou as Taoiseach, they will have to have a broad consensus of the left. This is the first time we have seen the left parties working so closely together and SF stand to gain most from that broad left co-operation/unity. Why would they jeopardise that strategy just to run their own candidate, who would likely not win anyway, for a powerless position?

3. In order to get SFs backing, a red line condition would have been that Connolly (or anyone else) would have to speak enthusiastically in support of a united Ireland in their campaign. Having Irish Unity being addressed and platformed by non-SF candidate only helps them create the impression that momementum is building towards a border poll.

Points 1 and 2 are plainly contradictory. If SF are building an Alliance on the left why could they not count on transfers from Connolly? Or the transfers from their candidate going to Connolly? FF and FG are content to split the government's vote with 2 candidates, how is that anymore tactically correct than SF backing Connolly.

Your biggest argument as I've highlighted in bold seems to be that SF are going to lose anyway so it's better not to run a candidate at all. A bizarre, incomprehensible position for a political party involved in democracy. A similar strategy would have been for them not to contest the last general election once it was apparent to them they weren't going to win.

Whilst the Presidential role is largely ceremonial, running a candidate for the position is very important for a large political party to be taken seriously. A Presidential campaign mobilises your grassroots supporters, indicates your party position on matters, encourages recognition of your party around the country and shows the electorate that you take the institutions of government seriously.

[Franko]

A genuine question to the 'Steen was robbed' folks

I think it would be generally accepted that there must be some controls around who gets onto the ballot

Lest we have a case where we've 50,000 candidates to choose from and the RTE debates become even more chaotic

So, given that you disagree with the current controls that are in place - what would your new proposals be for this?

I'm not in the "Steen was robbed" camp I'm in the "this ballot is far too small for a healthy democracy" camp. Sinn Fein are a political party with ideas of leading a government in the Dail. They received more or less the same vote share as FF and FG. How is it possible that they can't put forward a representative candidate of their own? A gerrymandered candidate would make some sense in a FPTP election but none whatsoever in an Irish Presidential election.

Similarly there were plenty of Independents who didn't agree with Steen but gave her support in the interest of democratic debate. I've no doubt that a lot more FF and FG councillors, TD's and senators would have given their support to Steen's candicacy if not for the party whip cracking down.

The position of Ceann Comhraile is elected by secret ballot for the very specific reason that party whips can't dominate and curtail the aspirations of popular independents or small parties. TD's and senators should also be able to support a Presidential candidate by secret ballot in the interest of a wider political spectrum being represented.

So in summary...

Sinn Fein are useless for not putting forward a 'party' candidate

FG and FF are useless for putting forward a 'party' candidate and instructing party members to back them

You do understand this makes you look a bit silly

[trileacman]

A genuine question to the 'Steen was robbed' folks

I think it would be generally accepted that there must be some controls around who gets onto the ballot

Lest we have a case where we've 50,000 candidates to choose from and the RTE debates become even more chaotic

So, given that you disagree with the current controls that are in place - what would your new proposals be for this?

I'm not in the "Steen was robbed" camp I'm in the "this ballot is far too small for a healthy democracy" camp. Sinn Fein are a political party with ideas of leading a government in the Dail. They received more or less the same vote share as FF and FG. How is it possible that they can't put forward a representative candidate of their own? A gerrymandered candidate would make some sense in a FPTP election but none whatsoever in an Irish Presidential election.

Similarly there were plenty of Independents who didn't agree with Steen but gave her support in the interest of democratic debate. I've no doubt that a lot more FF and FG councillors, TD's and senators would have given their support to Steen's candicacy if not for the party whip cracking down.

The position of Ceann Comhraile is elected by secret ballot for the very specific reason that party whips can't dominate and curtail the aspirations of popular independents or small parties. TD's and senators should also be able to support a Presidential candidate by secret ballot in the interest of a wider political spectrum being represented.

So in summary...

Sinn Fein are useless for not putting forward a 'party' candidate

FG and FF are useless for putting forward a 'party' candidate and instructing party members to back them

You do understand this makes you look a bit silly

Twisting yourself in knots there to construe what I said as that.

SF, FF and FG all conspired to shorten the ballot paper (through different means) and stop a boarder discussion being held about who should represent the country.

?Do you think only 3 runners for President is a good thing?

[Truthsayer]

Presidential debate on Virgin Media One.. poor Jim out of his depth.

[armaghniac]

The first debate is proceeding as expected. Connolly rabbiting on about the military-industrial complex, Gavin not a great speaker, Humphries nothing special, but the best of a bad lot.

[Franko]

A genuine question to the 'Steen was robbed' folks

I think it would be generally accepted that there must be some controls around who gets onto the ballot

Lest we have a case where we've 50,000 candidates to choose from and the RTE debates become even more chaotic

So, given that you disagree with the current controls that are in place - what would your new proposals be for this?

I'm not in the "Steen was robbed" camp I'm in the "this ballot is far too small for a healthy democracy" camp. Sinn Fein are a political party with ideas of leading a government in the Dail. They received more or less the same vote share as FF and FG. How is it possible that they can't put forward a representative candidate of their own? A gerrymandered candidate would make some sense in a FPTP election but none whatsoever in an Irish Presidential election.

Similarly there were plenty of Independents who didn't agree with Steen but gave her support in the interest of democratic debate. I've no doubt that a lot more FF and FG councillors, TD's and senators would have given their support to Steen's candicacy if not for the party whip cracking down.

The position of Ceann Comhraile is elected by secret ballot for the very specific reason that party whips can't dominate and curtail the aspirations of popular independents or small parties. TD's and senators should also be able to support a Presidential candidate by secret ballot in the interest of a wider political spectrum being represented.

So in summary...

Sinn Fein are useless for not putting forward a 'party' candidate

FG and FF are useless for putting forward a 'party' candidate and instructing party members to back them

You do understand this makes you look a bit silly

Twisting yourself in knots there to construe what I said as that.

SF, FF and FG all conspired to shorten the ballot paper (through different means) and stop a boarder discussion being held about who should represent the country.

?Do you think only 3 runners for President is a good thing?

No knots at all

I know when you see it shortened down a bit it does sound pretty daft, but that's what you said

Do you genuinely think that SF, FF and FG all sat down together and plotted to have the least possible names on the ballot?

Really?

To what end?

[trileacman]

A genuine question to the 'Steen was robbed' folks

I think it would be generally accepted that there must be some controls around who gets onto the ballot

Lest we have a case where we've 50,000 candidates to choose from and the RTE debates become even more chaotic

So, given that you disagree with the current controls that are in place - what would your new proposals be for this?

I'm not in the "Steen was robbed" camp I'm in the "this ballot is far too small for a healthy democracy" camp. Sinn Fein are a political party with ideas of leading a government in the Dail. They received more or less the same vote share as FF and FG. How is it possible that they can't put forward a representative candidate of their own? A gerrymandered candidate would make some sense in a FPTP election but none whatsoever in an Irish Presidential election.

Similarly there were plenty of Independents who didn't agree with Steen but gave her support in the interest of democratic debate. I've no doubt that a lot more FF and FG councillors, TD's and senators would have given their support to Steen's candicacy if not for the party whip cracking down.

The position of Ceann Comhraile is elected by secret ballot for the very specific reason that party whips can't dominate and curtail the aspirations of popular independents or small parties. TD's and senators should also be able to support a Presidential candidate by secret ballot in the interest of a wider political spectrum being represented.

So in summary...

Sinn Fein are useless for not putting forward a 'party' candidate

FG and FF are useless for putting forward a 'party' candidate and instructing party members to back them

You do understand this makes you look a bit silly

Twisting yourself in knots there to construe what I said as that.

SF, FF and FG all conspired to shorten the ballot paper (through different means) and stop a boarder discussion being held about who should represent the country.

?Do you think only 3 runners for President is a good thing?

No knots at all

That's what you said

Do you genuinely think that SF, FF and FG all sat down together and plotted to have the least possible names on the ballot?

Really?

To what end?

No I don't think they sat down together and plotted it. SF sat down and seen the field was only going to be 3 fairly uninspiring people and for reasons only they'll know decided not to contest the election despite the opportunity for a SF candidate to get a much larger share of the spotlight than is usually the case in a Presidential election.

SF, FG and FF sought to keep the ballot as short as possible to protect their own individual candidates and facilitate an election that is just FG v FF v The Left. Whilst they are entitled to work the nomination system to their favour, and it shouldn't be incumbent upon individual politicians to hobble their careers by breaking rank with the party, I'd have to say the outcome has been an emasculated field of 3 pretty uninspiring candidates.

Disagree with that?

[Armagh18]

The first debate is proceeding as expected. Connolly rabbiting on about the military-industrial complex, Gavin not a great speaker, Humphries nothing special, but the best of a bad lot.

Wouldn't call that rabbiting on. 100% correct.

[From the Bunker]

It's gas looking at the posters of Jim Galvin here in Mayo.
I really can't even see Fianna Fail die-hards voting for him.
He was the orchestrator in the main of extra years of hurt.

I'd guess it'd be the same in Kildare and Meath, Bar the Dubs who live there to get on the property ladder.

[Franko]

Ye

A genuine question to the 'Steen was robbed' folks

I think it would be generally accepted that there must be some controls around who gets onto the ballot

Lest we have a case where we've 50,000 candidates to choose from and the RTE debates become even more chaotic

So, given that you disagree with the current controls that are in place - what would your new proposals be for this?

I'm not in the "Steen was robbed" camp I'm in the "this ballot is far too small for a healthy democracy" camp. Sinn Fein are a political party with ideas of leading a government in the Dail. They received more or less the same vote share as FF and FG. How is it possible that they can't put forward a representative candidate of their own? A gerrymandered candidate would make some sense in a FPTP election but none whatsoever in an Irish Presidential election.

Similarly there were plenty of Independents who didn't agree with Steen but gave her support in the interest of democratic debate. I've no doubt that a lot more FF and FG councillors, TD's and senators would have given their support to Steen's candicacy if not for the party whip cracking down.

The position of Ceann Comhraile is elected by secret ballot for the very specific reason that party whips can't dominate and curtail the aspirations of popular independents or small parties. TD's and senators should also be able to support a Presidential candidate by secret ballot in the interest of a wider political spectrum being represented.

So in summary...

Sinn Fein are useless for not putting forward a 'party' candidate

FG and FF are useless for putting forward a 'party' candidate and instructing party members to back them

You do understand this makes you look a bit silly

Twisting yourself in knots there to construe what I said as that.

SF, FF and FG all conspired to shorten the ballot paper (through different means) and stop a boarder discussion being held about who should represent the country.

?Do you think only 3 runners for President is a good thing?

No knots at all

That's what you said

Do you genuinely think that SF, FF and FG all sat down together and plotted to have the least possible names on the ballot?

Really?

To what end?

No I don't think they sat down together and plotted it. SF sat down and seen the field was only going to be 3 fairly uninspiring people and for reasons only they'll know decided not to contest the election despite the opportunity for a SF candidate to get a much larger share of the spotlight than is usually the case in a Presidential election.

SF, FG and FF sought to keep the ballot as short as possible to protect their own individual candidates and facilitate an election that is just FG v FF v The Left. Whilst they are entitled to work the nomination system to their favour, and it shouldn't be incumbent upon individual politicians to hobble their careers by breaking rank with the party, I'd have to say the outcome has been an emasculated field of 3 pretty uninspiring candidates.

Disagree with that?

Yeah pretty much all of it cos it's absolute scutter

So they 'conspired' but they didn't actually conspire.  You do know what conspire means?

And SF saw a candidate fairly closely aligned to their own ideals and didn't stand someone against her, saving the party time, money, effort and a good politician lost to a ceremonial role

Also to note - for someone who was deriding SF for not fielding their 'own individual candidate' - you've just said above that SF have their 'own individual candidate' :-)

FF and FG fielded candidates and **shock horror** instructed the party members through the whips to support said candidates

The fact that there's only 3 candidates is disappointing but that brings me back to my very first post on the topic, which you nor anyone else have answered...

What's your alternative system?

[Baile Brigín 2]

Looking at both sides of the argument, the role of President is representative.  Steen didn't meet the criteria through the Oireachtas or the Council routes, so that's fair enough.
It feels like it was skewed by the whip system, given the express instruction by Fine Gael to block nominations.  I get the logic of why would you facilitate an opponent of your own candidate,  but if these councillors could either support a candidate if they felt it reflected the views of a significant cohort of their constituency, or abstain in the event of a vote, then it would be more likely a candidate would fulfil the criteria.  It still would require the numbers, and that mathematically would prevent a ludicrous number of candidates qualifying.
The sense of injustice,  if you like, is that the mainstream parties pulled up the drawbridge behind them to virtually guarantee nobody else would be in the running.
That's as I see it, but I could be wrong, or missing some point, or just plain misinformed.

Steen would easily have gotten 4 councils. But she simply wasn't arsed going down the sticks and putting in the hard yards. She let Toibin do the running in the Oireachtas, only showing up when it was clear she was cooked. Turns out Iona don't have all that much juice

I agree 3 isn't ideal, but the majority of the independents this time were absolute vermin. The question is where were the centrist candidates that would have gotten nominations this time?

[trileacman]

Looking at both sides of the argument, the role of President is representative.  Steen didn't meet the criteria through the Oireachtas or the Council routes, so that's fair enough.
It feels like it was skewed by the whip system, given the express instruction by Fine Gael to block nominations.  I get the logic of why would you facilitate an opponent of your own candidate,  but if these councillors could either support a candidate if they felt it reflected the views of a significant cohort of their constituency, or abstain in the event of a vote, then it would be more likely a candidate would fulfil the criteria.  It still would require the numbers, and that mathematically would prevent a ludicrous number of candidates qualifying.
The sense of injustice,  if you like, is that the mainstream parties pulled up the drawbridge behind them to virtually guarantee nobody else would be in the running.
That's as I see it, but I could be wrong, or missing some point, or just plain misinformed.

Steen would easily have gotten 4 councils. But she simply wasn't arsed going down the sticks and putting in the hard yards. She let Toibin do the running in the Oireachtas, only showing up when it was clear she was cooked. Turns out Iona don't have all that much juice

I agree 3 isn't ideal, but the majority of the independents this time were absolute vermin. The question is where were the centrist candidates that would have gotten nominations this time?

If getting councils is so easy why didn't Sheridan get their support despite courting them for a year?

I don't know where the centrist candidates where but probably they correctly identified that it was impossible to get on the ballot without the support of the 4 main Dail parties?

[trileacman]

Ye

A genuine question to the 'Steen was robbed' folks

I think it would be generally accepted that there must be some controls around who gets onto the ballot

Lest we have a case where we've 50,000 candidates to choose from and the RTE debates become even more chaotic

So, given that you disagree with the current controls that are in place - what would your new proposals be for this?

I'm not in the "Steen was robbed" camp I'm in the "this ballot is far too small for a healthy democracy" camp. Sinn Fein are a political party with ideas of leading a government in the Dail. They received more or less the same vote share as FF and FG. How is it possible that they can't put forward a representative candidate of their own? A gerrymandered candidate would make some sense in a FPTP election but none whatsoever in an Irish Presidential election.

Similarly there were plenty of Independents who didn't agree with Steen but gave her support in the interest of democratic debate. I've no doubt that a lot more FF and FG councillors, TD's and senators would have given their support to Steen's candicacy if not for the party whip cracking down.

The position of Ceann Comhraile is elected by secret ballot for the very specific reason that party whips can't dominate and curtail the aspirations of popular independents or small parties. TD's and senators should also be able to support a Presidential candidate by secret ballot in the interest of a wider political spectrum being represented.

So in summary...

Sinn Fein are useless for not putting forward a 'party' candidate

FG and FF are useless for putting forward a 'party' candidate and instructing party members to back them

You do understand this makes you look a bit silly

Twisting yourself in knots there to construe what I said as that.

SF, FF and FG all conspired to shorten the ballot paper (through different means) and stop a boarder discussion being held about who should represent the country.

?Do you think only 3 runners for President is a good thing?

No knots at all

That's what you said

Do you genuinely think that SF, FF and FG all sat down together and plotted to have the least possible names on the ballot?

Really?

To what end?

No I don't think they sat down together and plotted it. SF sat down and seen the field was only going to be 3 fairly uninspiring people and for reasons only they'll know decided not to contest the election despite the opportunity for a SF candidate to get a much larger share of the spotlight than is usually the case in a Presidential election.

SF, FG and FF sought to keep the ballot as short as possible to protect their own individual candidates and facilitate an election that is just FG v FF v The Left. Whilst they are entitled to work the nomination system to their favour, and it shouldn't be incumbent upon individual politicians to hobble their careers by breaking rank with the party, I'd have to say the outcome has been an emasculated field of 3 pretty uninspiring candidates.

Disagree with that?

Yeah pretty much all of it cos it's absolute scutter

So they 'conspired' but they didn't actually conspire.  You do know what conspire means?

And SF saw a candidate fairly closely aligned to their own ideals and didn't stand someone against her, saving the party time, money, effort and a good politician lost to a ceremonial role

Also to note - for someone who was deriding SF for not fielding their 'own individual candidate' - you've just said above that SF have their 'own individual candidate' :-)

FF and FG fielded candidates and **shock horror** instructed the party members through the whips to support said candidates

The fact that there's only 3 candidates is disappointing but that brings me back to my very first post on the topic, which you nor anyone else have answered...

What's your alternative system?

The position of Ceann Comhraile is elected by secret ballot for the very specific reason that party whips can't dominate and curtail the aspirations of popular independents or small parties. TD's and senators should also be able to support a Presidential candidate by secret ballot in the interest of a wider political spectrum being represented.

Can't you read?

Tell your Shinner handlers to save themselves "time, money and effort" at the next general election by not running any candidates in constituencies they aren't going to win.

[whitey]

Steen would have wiped the floor with all of them in a debate

She's smart, articulate and smoking hot
 
She was instrumental in helping defeat the recent referendums and made highly unpopular people look like babbling fools during those debates/tV appearances