Messages

Pity to see this thread slipping way down the ratings. I have enjoyed it very much.
Maybe we’d all have saved a lot of clicking and typing if we had paid attention to Leo’s original question:
“Will anyone inn Fianna Fail shout stop?”
You see, at the moment, it is up to Fianna Fail to pull the plug.
The Gardai may sometime in the future decide to get involved. The same might apply to the Revenue. Notice how fast they have been to say they’d be investigating Celia Larkin’s loan from FF?
It should not come as a big surprise if they announced at any time that they wanted to have a chat with Bertie over the revelations that have come out of his dealings with the Mahon Tribunal.
At present however, the ball is in Fianna Fail’s court. To answer Leo’s question, I’d say, Yes, plenty in FF will, if they see Bertie’s leadership proving a liability to the party, and if it happens, it will have sweet damn all to do with morality or legal points.

As Babs Keating (I think) once remarked, “There’s only six inches of a difference between a slap on the back and a kick up the arse!”
I have no doubt whatsoever that Bertie is guarding his arse very carefully those days.

All great points but do you not think the Tribunal has uncovered enough evidence to prove Ahern is not fit for office this very minute.

Obviously, Zap, I sure do agree with you!
It has to be kept in mind that we are not talking about a court of law and Mahon does not have the task of deciding Ahern's culpability in any of the matters that has been discussed. That's the main point I have been making here.
The Judge in charge, Alan Mahon, may at any time refer a matter to the High Court to determine a point of law or send papers relating to some aspect of the case to the DPP but that is all he is empowered to do. He won't, and can't, make any judicial decision.
IMO, the judge is playing a blinder and the very same has to be said about his team of researchers; what they have unearthed must be causing a lot of other politicians many sleepless nights. lest they too get an 'invitation' to come along to discuss matters.
I would imagine that most reasonable people would feel that Bertie's position is no longer tenable and that, sooner or later, he will have to go.
Probably that will be sooner than we might think, if the Fianna fail party feel his goose has been well and truly cooked. They don't do sentiment or loyalty to old friends and benefactors in that organisation.
I think that one reason that Judge Mahon has not referred any matter before him to any other quarter, as yet, is because he deems it most important to conclude his investigations before doing anything that would hinder his investigations. I'd also imagine that the Revenue authorities are keeping a very close eye on proceedings.
A last point here; hearing that a 'loan' of 30K to was given to Celia Larkin is one thing that may upset most of us but, in itself, it is not a crime.
Very likely, the Revenue authorities will get involved at an appropriate time but unless Fianna Fail trustees or whatever section of the part administration is concerned with the management of party funds get a conscience there is nothing illegal involved.
Knowing something is wrong is one thing, but proving it in a court of law is quite another!

Let's assume a politician is being investigated for taking bribes .....
In the course of the investigation strong evidence emerges that he has committed murder....
What would we do? Refer this to Gardai or DPP?
No no - according to the the FF mantra, we must wait whatever number of years it takes for the Tribunal report.

Or lets assume the investigation uncovers evidence that the politician is part of Al Quaeda which has plans afoot to blow up planes heading for New York.
Should we use the evidence that has emerged to stop this impending disaster?
Oh no,, say FF, we have to wait for the report....

Leo, I think any reasonable person would agree with you there.
However, there is an important difference between your hypotheses and what is happening in the case of the Mahon Tribunal hearings..
The tribunal is an enquiry into certain allegations that have been made; it is not a court of law.
The late Liam Lawlor and Ray Burke both found to their cost that the tribunals they faced were not to be trifled with and the scope and comprehensivenss of their research took them by surprise. Indeed I'd say all Fianna Fail is feeling the same way now.
Have you noticed that the mantra has changed a lot in recent times?
Now we are been told by senior cabinet members that this tribunal should be wound up forthwith in view of the money and time it is taking.
For some reason, none of them has mentioned even once that the undue delay and most of the considerable expense can be blamed on witnesses who are proving very un-co-operative and reluctant to help the tribunal in any way.
Given his remit as chairman of this inquiry, it is Alan Mahon's call as to whether Bertie Ahern's behaviour should be investigated by either the Gardai or the DPP.
If Justice Mahon decides at any time to send papers to either party I'm sure he will do so, but the outcome of this action will not be decided by him but in the courts as is right and proper.

Mighty post, Turlough!
You  have painted a very accurate and depressing picture of Irish society as it was in decades gone;  I just hope that when observers look back over the present state of things they won't be able to pass the same sort of damning judgment on ourselves.
I don't think we have the mix right yet for a democratic and just society, maybe it will never be right but at least we are open enough to question matters we are unhappy with.
With regard to the question posed on this thread, I am certain that Fianna Fail will shout stop when the collective party has decided that it is time to do so.
That decision will be based on pragmatic grounds and will have sweet damn all to do with moral or social issues; self-preservation has been, and always will be, the name of the game.
Alan Mahon's tribunal has been sitting long enough and costing taxpayers enough money for it to be allowed finish its work.
I wouldn't pay too much attention to the bleating of Opposition spokespersons at any time.
I think most reasonable people can assume that Bertie will have many questions to answer when the Mahon tribunal delivers its judgment. But assuming is one thing and pre-empting the work of the tribunal is another.
Many on the opposite side of the House could echo what Bertie once said privately to a group I was in. "The big fear with tribunals is that no one can anticipate what they will go into and what will they throw up."
Bertie is no doubt cursing the arrogance of Padraig Flynn during his infamous 'Late Late Show' appearance and the reaction of Tom Gilmartin to Long Paddy's dismissal of himself as being 'unwell.'
Quite probably, Gilmartin's charge that Ahern accepted a bribe from Own O'Callaghan will prove unfounded but Bertie will certainly be in hot water over other matters that came to light as a result of this initial inquiry.
That's ironic but that's also politics!
I'd say; let the tribunal do its work and let Opposition speakers hope that the spotlight isn't turned on their own parties before the show is over, and as for Fianna Fail, there's no organization capable of shouting, "Stop!" as it is.

 5 Sams, níl rud ar bith as cóir le do chuid Gaeilge- tugim fein gach ní atá scríobhtha agat.
(Táim i ndon gach a deireann Jarlath Burns a thuiscint freisin, cé nach n-aontaíom leis uaireanta)
Silim go bhfuil sé easca go leor do mhuinitir an Iarthair canuint agus scribhinn an Tuascairt agus an Deiscairt freisin a thuiscint
Gan dabht, ta deacreachtai idir eatharúach ach tarlíonn an fadhb sin i mBearla comh maith.

Hard to say, but the bind is there all the time!
I never played much football and no hurling but I clattered many a ball off many a handball wall around the country in my time. Handballers tend to belong to a gang of their own and don't always feel they belong to the overall GAA scene but I'd always have a hope that Mayo would someday surprise us all down in my own place. For Mayo people it's the one topic to take over from  the weather when summer time comes around!
Any time I go back down west from Dublin, young and old will always bring the subject up sooner or later and I suppose it has given me a sense of belonging to my roots.
Back in 2004, just before the final, I dropped in to vist an elderly relation. (Over the 80 mark.)
She had a big problem and was waiting for me to arrive and put matters right!
Hers was the only house in the village without the green and red flying and she wanted a flag right up on the chimney stack so that David (Heaney) would see it as he passed by. So, feeling an awful fool, I got a few ladders and started to climb. Just as I was about finished, I felt a tug on the guide rope and there she was right behind me giving instructions as to where I was to place it!

God Almighty! I was well over the 50 mark and suffering for chronic arthritis and felt reluctant enough to do what I did but I could have cried (probably did) at the sight of herself on the roof and the realisation of what the green and red means to her.
I don't keep up to speed with the club scene or other aspects of the game in Mayo but only Mayo people will understand what I am on about here. The desire to see Sam back again passes all understanding and as long as the wait goes on there will always be 80 years olds willing to climb roofs - and I'll be willing to get up with them!

Armaghniac, I’m not too sure about the National Stadium part but I sure back you on the second point.
When the first soccer match was played in Croker the Hill 16 end ws advertised as the North Terrace!
That was a bit over the hill to most GAA people I suppose, but the FAI were footing the bill for the occasion.
The IRFU have invited Ann What’s-Her Name along as their guest and it’s up to them to treat her as they will – they’re paying for the privilege and it’s their business.

Tá an snáth seo ag dul ó neart go neart. Leanaigí  ar aghaidh!

Sligeach, I have no problem following your points and the analogy is a valid one in many ways but so then so too is what Mike Sheehy has to say.
Paying for the software you use is not a crime or something to be ashamed of; neither is paying individuals for developing and maintaining their special gifts in any walk of life and that includes GAA games.
Open Source is a magnificent concept and helps to restore my faith in human nature but this phenomenon comes with a hefty price tag.

Developing software products in an ad hoc and uncontrolled way has its own dangers to watch out for; how do you know if the program/application or whatever, you've just loaded on your precious machine will do the job you want to perfection or bring the damn thing to a complete and total standstill?
I am a Microsoft Master Instructor and therefore tend to have a bias in favour of Microsoft Office products. That is not to say that that I fully endorse every Microsoft product.
However, the hefty price tag on Ms Office brings with it a degree of peace of mind and knowledge that backup is never far away.
A good friend is an information officer with one of the country's biggest trade unions and he won't let Open Office near any machine he is responsible for.
His reasoning is simple.
The cost of purchasing licenses for Microsoft's offerings is not a factor when the question of stability and backup assistance is considered.
The idea of today's Gaelic players giving up so much of their social lives and possibly sacrificing their career prospects is all very well. 
Why do so many of our top players think differently?

Having slaps on the back from loyal and adoring supporters is no compensation for a player who has paid a very heavy price in terms of restricted social freedom, loss of potential earnings and the possibility of severe arthritis setting in, even before his very short time at the top has passed.
Maybe my granny boiled spuds in a big pot over an open turf fire but that is not to say she enjoyed doing it. If she had today's modern conveniences to hand I wouldn't doubt that she'd make full use of them.
Similarly, I don't think that talented players of the past wouldn't have put the same effort into developing their game if they could have availed of what is being freely offered to players today..

To finish, I must say I don't really understand why the controversy is taking place now, when the time for taking stands is long past.
"Pay for Pay" will be implemented.
The slowness of the GAA to realise the implications of the offer from the Government and the way in which the GPA took control of negotiations from the start has seen to that.
In the unlikely event that it is not implement this coming season, it will be in place and the world will keep on turning before the next one arrives.
If you don't like this you should direct your fire at GAA officialdom and not at the players. You don't have to like Dessie Farrell and his colleagues but you have to admit they handled their remit a lot more efficiently than Nicky Brennan and his buddies handled theirs.

"Come on, lads and lassies there are plenty of others threads on the board that cover just about every aspect of the controversy," is what I'd gently suggest to those who complain about some of us here bringing computers into the equation.
Besides, Sligeach drew a perfectly valid analogy between the commercial software /freeware and the amateur ethos vs. the desire to get rewarded for the effort put in by GPA members.
Mike Sheehy also has made a series of spot on observations and in the process draws comparisons between the commercial elements in the IT world and the freeware supporters. The fact that both posters seem to take opposing sides in stating their views is not the point.
Both have expressed their opinions and gave their views in a logical and measured way.  I guess drawing analogies between the world of the GAA and the developments taking place in computer land is as good a way to argue one's point of view as any other I can think of.
And me? I honestly think there is little to be got from having this debate now as the time for debating the issue was really during the last five years and not now, when the issue is all but done and dusted.
I honestly believe this to be so. The GAA authorities are mostly to blame for the GPA taking the initiative away from them and conducting discussions with the Departments of Finance and Sports.
The turns and twists in the long-running saga are there on record in the public domain. Charlie MC Creevy was the main figure to begin with on the Government side as he introduced a series of measures in one of his last budgets. He wanted to grant some form of tax breaks for professional athletes and sports people generally.
The GPA, Dessie Farrell and colleagues, clamoured for "parity of esteem" with their professional counterparts. Charlie Mac soon conceded there was merit to their objections but there was no way around the fact that they were amateurs and could be helped by way of tax breaks.
His problem was that there had to be a transparent way of giving out public money and keeping track of how it was going to be distributed.  His initial rejection of the demand from within the GAA for a share of the goodies was not based on principle but on the pragmatic – how does a Government account for what would be gifts and not tax breaks that could be measured and quantified. After Charlie's departure to Europe the focus shifted to John O'Donoughue and his particular ministry as the "Pay for Pay" issue had been conceded in principle and John confined his public reservations to the question of finding a way to pay out within beaching Government policy of accountability. 
There was another matter to be considered and that was about players in the North who live outside the jurisdiction.
A classic Irish solution to an Irish problem was arrived at with the Government giving a grant to the GAA. This money was always meant for the players, in the same way as in soccer and other sports.
So what's the problem and why the belated reaction when the negotiations are over and the cheque has probably been delivered to Croke Park?
I am giving an opinion here and it is this; why did the GAA authorities not see the implications of the talks that took place before the principle was conceded?
The blazer brigade are the most culpable lot in all of this; does anyone of you recall any statement of intent or policy from Nicky Brennan, Liam Mulvihill or indeed any one in authority , as the GPA passed them by and negotiated as equals with the official side.
The GPA fought for and were awarded the money.  Headquarters did sweet eff-ay to have a controlling hand in its distribution and now the GPA want to have it dished out I the manner agreed.
The GAA still have issued no coherent opinions on the matter.
Clueless twits! Don't blame Dessie Farrell for doing his duty; it's Nicky Brennan that should have his arse kicked!
BTW, Sligeach, I was really talking about freeware in general and not necessarily Operating Systems. I have no problem about admitting that lots of Windows-based stuff is undiluted crap and as full of holes as Nicky Brennan's logic.

Sligeach, I have no problem following your points and the analogy is a valid one in many ways but so then so too is what Mike Sheehy has to say.
Paying for the software you use is not a crime or something to be ashamed of; neither is paying individuals for developing and maintaining their special gifts in any walk of life and that includes GAA games.
Open Source is a magnificent concept and helps to restore my faith in human nature but this phenomenon comes with a hefty price tag.

Developing software products in an ad hoc and uncontrolled way has its own dangers to watch out for; how do you know if the program/application or whatever, you've just loaded on your precious machine will do the job you want to perfection or bring the damn thing to a complete and total standstill?
I am a Microsoft Master Instructor and therefore  tend to have a bias in favour of Microsoft Office products. That is not to say that that I fully endorse every Microsoft product.
However, the hefty price tag on Ms Office brings with it a degree of peace of mind and knowledge that backup is never far away.
A good friend is an information officer with one of the country's biggest trade unions and he won't let Open Office near any machine he is responsible for.
His reasoning is simple.
The cost of purchasing licenses for Microsoft's offerings is not a factor when the question of stability and backup assistance is considered.
The idea of today's Gaelic players giving up so much of their social lives and possibly sacrificing their career prospects is all very well. 
Why do so many of our top players think differently?

Having slaps on the back from loyal and adoring supporters is no compensation for a player who has paid a very heavy price in terms of restricted social freedom, loss of potential earnings and the possibility of severe arthritis setting in, even before his very short time at the top has passed.
Maybe my granny boiled spuds in a big pot over an open turf fire but that is not to say she enjoyed doing it. If she had today's modern conveniences to hand I wouldn't doubt that she'd make full use of them.
Similarly, I don't think that talented players of the past wouldn't have put the same effort into developing their game if they could have availed of what is being freely offered to players today..

To finish, I must say I don't really understand why the controversy is taking place now, when the time for taking stands is long past.
"Pay for Pay" will be implemented.
The slowness of the GAA to realise the implications of the offer from the Government and the way in which the GPA took control of negotiations from the start has seen to that.
In the unlikely event that it is not implement this coming season, it will be in place and the world will keep on turning before the next one arrives.
If you don't like this you should direct your fire at GAA officialdom and not at the players. You don't have to like Dessie Farrell and his colleagues but you have to admit they handled their remit a lot more efficiently than Nicky Brennan and his buddies handled theirs.
(Janey, I never thought I'd be so long-winded. I like to rant too.)

I'd love to agree with you, KM, but somehow I doubt it.
Mayo still have the self same problems that were obvious when John O'Mahony took over; namely the entire spine of the team is very unsettled and he is, after 5 months,  no nearer to fixing even one of the six positions in question.
I'm referring to the places right down the middle of the field from 3 to 14 and none of the six places in question seem to have been adequately filled.
Okay, if he has a full panel to pick from they will be a formidable side for any team to face but there will be too many fill-ins for Mayo to be fancied to go the whole way.

I think if we experience any major surprise packages this year we could well be looking at Louth or Meath.

Hardy, did you get to hear Terry Phelan today?
I had checked out the Moncrieff schedule on-line and it stated, clear as day, that Terry's slot was from 3.00pm to 3.30.
So I tuned in at five to three only to get the last few sentences from him. Now I still don't know the origins of the word, "Culchie." Apparently he was on a half hour earlier than advertised.
The Hiberno Irish site is very interesting okay but as it seems to only give the opinions of those who write in it can't be taken as definitive for any of the words or phrases it deals with.
For all I know, since I missed the broadcast I don't know if Terry even got to dealing with my submission.

Sounds like u were talking Ulster-scots and u didnt even no it!Good point!

Many of the words and terms used in East and North Mayo do have an Ulster origin. As an Armagh person you will know that the Battle of the Diamond, near Loughgall, was fought in 1795.
After the battle a wave of Protestant attacks on Catholic homes and properties ensued and many Catholic families were forced to move westward, many settling in the area around Charlestown, some in Sligo and others in mayo.
Another large group found new homes in North Mayo.
That's why you find a large number of people today with names of Ulster origin living in those areas (Henry, Gallagher, Doherty, McNulty etc.) and I suppose it's natural to assume that they brought  an element of Ulster sayings with them.

'Latchiko' I always associated that word with a boistrous young fella. My Dad uses that word often when talking to me about me if ye know what I mean!

I sure do!
I heard the same term under the same circumstances and it wasn't one of affection either.
It was used more to express exasperation at the victim's clumsiness or lack of sense than anything else.
Shamrock Shore uses a few terms I recall from my childhood days with the exception of "heveril", which is a new one for me.
"Knuck" was a common term in East Mayo when I was growing up; it was preferable to be labelled a "knuck" than a "latchiko" but given the choice I'd have preferred neither.
In our use of the word, "knuck" meant more of a mischievous or troublesome and cheeky young gent but it was still a step above latchiko- that was the pits altogether.
Incidentally the word knuck was a tricky one to pronounce; the "kn" had a "nagh" sound like the latter part of the word Ballinagh in County Cavan, if you know what I mean.
Pegging instead of throwing is still used in East Mayo- at least people would understand it if you used it in incidental conversation.
"Forninst" is one I'd know the meaning of but I don't   think I ever heard it in general use.
At any rate, I've emailed Sean Moncrieff  and I hope Terry Dolan gives us the lowdown on the word "Cuchie" next Monday.

"Lar, I'll send an email as well. A few separate requests for the same information may get it to the top of the queue. Do you have an emai address handy?"

Yes, the address is; afternoon@newstalk.ie and the phone number is given also; it is: 01 6445109
I might just give a ring to see if Terry can explain the term "latchiko," we seem to have a prime example of this very phenomenon running around the board at the moment.