O'Dwyer blast
"The veteran manager has expressed anger that Wicklow's Leinster championship quarter-final with Laois on Saturday week will be played at Dr Cullen Park and not at headquarters because of concerts at the Dublin venue."
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/orsquodwyer-blast-1380694.html
I think Meath vs Wexford is on in Dr Cullen Park too but Im not sure if its the same weekend
Does he get a cut of the crowd?
Never ceases to amaze me the amount of people queing up to crawl up the carpetbagger's hole. At least Heaney managed a wee dig at him in today's Irish News. The comparison with Harry Redknapp is indeed apt.
The cult of the manager is the true vanguard of professionalism but isn't as easy a target as the GPA so we'll all pretend the elephant isn't in the room shall we?
I'm one of O'Dwyer's staunchest critics. Not because of any debate about his managerial skills or acumen, but simply because he gets such an easy ride from the media and general public in regards to his (what I consider) mercenary approach, and also the fact that I think he is one of the most cynical devils ever. I've already mentioned umpteen times how he brought diving to a whole new level when he was in charge at Laois and Kildare, but nobody ever mentions it in public.
Undoubtedly he is a very good man manager, and the original cute hoor, but this rush to canonise him sickens me most of the time.
Quotethis rush to canonise him sickens me most of the time
I'll vote for that.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 20, 2008, 09:42:36 AM
I'm one of O'Dwyer's staunchest critics. Not because of any debate about his managerial skills or acumen, but simply because he gets such an easy ride from the media and general public in regards to his (what I consider) mercenary approach, and also the fact that I think he is one of the most cynical devils ever. I've already mentioned umpteen times how he brought diving to a whole new level when he was in charge at Laois and Kildare, but nobody ever mentions it in public.
Undoubtedly he is a very good man manager, and the original cute hoor, but this rush to canonise him sickens me most of the time.
But why pick on him as an individual ? Sure aren't they all getting some form of payment ? At least he makes no bones about and he puts everything he receives in his tax return ! ;)
I pick on him because he pretends to be some sort of benevolent footballing evangelist. He is a cynical auld divil in my opinion. I do have great respect for his record as a manager, but I wish the media would be honest in how he achieves success.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 20, 2008, 10:15:41 AM
I pick on him because he pretends to be some sort of benevolent footballing evangelist. He is a cynical auld divil in my opinion. I do have great respect for his record as a manager, but I wish the media would be honest in how he achieves success.
How does he achieve success in your opinion ? He's not somebody I know much about but up here he comes across well and the media as you say seem to court him and put him on a pedsetal - but why not after all that he has achieved ?
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 20, 2008, 10:15:41 AM
I pick on him because he pretends to be some sort of benevolent footballing evangelist. He is a cynical auld divil in my opinion. I do have great respect for his record as a manager, but I wish the media would be honest in how he achieves success.
Always had my reservations about the man but after Wicklow win last Sunday and all his other achievements I wish to Christ we had had him around for a couple of years.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 20, 2008, 10:15:41 AM
I pick on him because he pretends to be some sort of benevolent footballing evangelist. He is a cynical auld divil in my opinion. I do have great respect for his record as a manager, but I wish the media would be honest in how he achieves success.
You are spot on there AZ. He is the Louis Walsh of football.
Maybe we were looking forward to a fairytale entrance to the championship by Mc Geeney and an auld hoor from Kerry comes and tears up the script - I don't know what you all thought but I thought it was the best match of the day in terms of entertainment ??
Quote from: orangeman on May 20, 2008, 10:25:40 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 20, 2008, 10:15:41 AM
I pick on him because he pretends to be some sort of benevolent footballing evangelist. He is a cynical auld divil in my opinion. I do have great respect for his record as a manager, but I wish the media would be honest in how he achieves success.
How does he achieve success in your opinion ? He's not somebody I know much about but up here he comes across well and the media as you say seem to court him and put him on a pedsetal - but why not after all that he has achieved ?
He is well able to use cynical tactics, with an air of innocence. If you ask any player who has played against a Micko team, especially in his travels since Kerry, they will tell you all about diving, time wasting and whinging.
If he was honest, and unapologetic about it, I would find it easier to bear, but the media allow him to play them like old fiddles, and he takes full advantage of it.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 20, 2008, 10:33:13 AM
Quote from: orangeman on May 20, 2008, 10:25:40 AM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 20, 2008, 10:15:41 AM
I pick on him because he pretends to be some sort of benevolent footballing evangelist. He is a cynical auld divil in my opinion. I do have great respect for his record as a manager, but I wish the media would be honest in how he achieves success.
How does he achieve success in your opinion ? He's not somebody I know much about but up here he comes across well and the media as you say seem to court him and put him on a pedsetal - but why not after all that he has achieved ?
He is well able to use cynical tactics, with an air of innocence. If you ask any player who has played against a Micko team, especially in his travels since Kerry, they will tell you all about diving, time wasting and whinging.
If he was honest, and unapologetic about it, I would find it easier to bear, but the media allow him to play them like old fiddles, and he takes full advantage of it.
Wicklow did not win Sunday's match by diving, time wasting and whinging ! He has brought Wicklow a championship win against Kildare who were playing division 1 football - Wicklow couldn't get out of division 4 -
Surely he brings more to the game than simply diving, time wasting and whinging ??
Wicklow's greatest ever achievement ??? Possibly !
AZ is right. Why Micko is a sacred cow is beyond me.
QuoteAZ is right. Why Micko is a sacred cow is beyond me
Roll of Honour as Player
Four All-Ireland Senior Football Championships
Eight National Football League Championships
Twelve Munster Senior Football Championships
One Railway Cup
Three Kerry Senior Football Championship finals with Waterville as player-coach
Managed Wickow from Div 4 to first win in Croke Park vs Kildare May 2008
Roll of Honour as Player
Eight All-Ireland Senior Football Championship titles
Three All-Ireland Under-21 Football Championship titles
Six Railway Cup titles
Two Leinster Senior Football Championship titles with Kildare
One Leinster Senior Football Championship title with Laois
One Leinster U21 Football Championship titles with Kildare
Three Kerry Senior Football Championship finals with Waterville as player-coach
Never understand it myself
Quote from: North Longford on May 20, 2008, 10:52:53 AM
QuoteAZ is right. Why Micko is a sacred cow is beyond me
Roll of Honour as Player
Four All-Ireland Senior Football Championships
Eight National Football League Championships
Twelve Munster Senior Football Championships
One Railway Cup
Three Kerry Senior Football Championship finals with Waterville as player-coach
Managed Wickow from Div 4 to first win in Croke Park vs Kildare May 2008
Roll of Honour as Player
Eight All-Ireland Senior Football Championship titles
Three All-Ireland Under-21 Football Championship titles
Six Railway Cup titles
Two Leinster Senior Football Championship titles with Kildare
One Leinster Senior Football Championship title with Laois
One Leinster U21 Football Championship titles with Kildare
Three Kerry Senior Football Championship finals with Waterville as player-coach
Never understand it myself
Nor me !!! ;)
Quote
Wicklow did not win Sunday's match by diving, time wasting and whinging ! He has brought Wicklow a championship win against Kildare who were playing division 1 football - Wicklow couldn't get out of division 4 -
Correct. They didn't do any of those things to any noticable extent. Credit where credit is due.
Quote
Surely he brings more to the game than simply diving, time wasting and whinging ??
Wicklow's greatest ever achievement ??? Possibly !
Of course he does. He is a great manager, I'm not going to be churlish and try and make out he is a bluffer. What I'm saying is he is pretty damn far from being the wide eyed purist from Waterville that the media try and portray him as, and that he plays upon.
Lads ye are missing my point entirely, or else I'm not explaining it very well.
Micko was a great footballer, and is a great manager. No question about it, and you'd be a bit touched to claim otherwise. However, nobody ever questions his motivations, accepting this sort of messianic status without batting an eyelid, or his tactics. He's the greatest manager ever, probably, but he is not some sort of purist raging against the establishment, he is as cynical and as driven as any other manager. But the media choose to give him a free pass on that.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 20, 2008, 10:55:14 AM
Quote
Wicklow did not win Sunday's match by diving, time wasting and whinging ! He has brought Wicklow a championship win against Kildare who were playing division 1 football - Wicklow couldn't get out of division 4 -
Correct. They didn't do any of those things to any noticable extent. Credit where credit is due.
Quote
Surely he brings more to the game than simply diving, time wasting and whinging ??
Wicklow's greatest ever achievement ??? Possibly !
Of course he does. He is a great manager, I'm not going to be churlish and try and make out he is a bluffer. What I'm saying is he is pretty damn far from being the wide eyed purist from Waterville that the media try and portray him as, and that he plays upon.
Is Pillar Caffrey the saint that he appears to be whilst doing TV interviews ?
Is Mickey Harte really that diplomatic and mild mannered ?
Is Banty Mc Eneaney a real gentleman who likes to come across as being so gracious ?
Was Sean Boylan the lovely wee man that was presented to us in post match interviews ?
The list could go on and on ....
We could start a competition here - who is the biggest bluffer of them all ? The best actor ? The most media savy ?
QuoteWe could start a competition here - who is the biggest bluffer of them all ? The best actor ? The most media savy ?
The Arse Boxer - Tommy Lyons
North Longford - because he has won all those things do you beleive he should be beyond reproach? You seem to be suggesting that if you achieve enough then you shouldn't be questioned. I'm sure CJH and Bertie would agree.
Quote from: orangeman on May 20, 2008, 11:00:32 AM
Is Pillar Caffrey the saint that he appears to be whilst doing TV interviews ?
Is Mickey Harte really that diplomatic and mild mannered ?
Is Banty Mc Eneaney a real gentleman who likes to come across as being so gracious ?
Was Sean Boylan the lovely wee man that was presented to us in post match interviews ?
The list could go on and on ....
We could start a competition here - who is the biggest bluffer of them all ? The best actor ? The most media savy ?
No.
No.
No.
YES, AND HOW DARE YOU IMPLY OTHERWISE!
Are we getting away from the fact that feckin' Celine Dion is playing Croker and not Gaelic games. but I guess its a matter of bums on seats and as can be seen from last week the GAA just doesnt bring in the punters,
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 20, 2008, 11:11:27 AM
North Longford - because he has won all those things do you beleive he should be beyond reproach? You seem to be suggesting that if you achieve enough then you shouldn't be questioned. I'm sure CJH and Bertie would agree.
There is something familiar about CJH, Bertie and Micko in the same group ;)
What about this complaint he has about Celine Dion and WestLife? Is he right or just playing the victim of the big bad GAA and the poor little forgotten Wicklow :(
i agree with him, the game should be in croke park, we're too fond of opening croker up for everyone else except ourselves. we won't let club finalists train on the pitch, we won't let weaker counties see the place. why don't we go the whole hog and hand it over to the IRFU and FAI. i still can see the other point though, can't stand the fawning shite breheny writes about micko at times, cringeworthy.
QuoteSurely he brings more to the game than simply diving, time wasting and whinging ??
You can add his transfer policy to that list.
Seanie
You asked why he was a sacred cow..........I gave possible reasons
And to add to it lads you don't achieve anything without having a bit of what he is being accused of. He's won an awful lot more than anyone else over a much longer timeframe so its much easier to accumulate eamples of the things we don't like about him and his teams.
And as somebody said why should the media just pick Micko to try and expose the myth. Does anybody think Sean Boylan and Mickey Harte for example are the mild manner gents that they come across in the media when they are dealing with all things Meath or Tyrone behind closed doors...
Quote from: North Longford on May 20, 2008, 11:44:48 AM
Seanie
You asked why he was a sacred cow..........I gave possible reasons
And to add to it lads you don't achieve anything without having a bit of what he is being accused of. He's won an awful lot more than anyone else over a much longer timeframe so its much easier to accumulate eamples of the things we don't like about him and his teams.
And as somebody said why should the media just pick Micko to try and expose the myth. Does anybody think Sean Boylan and Mickey Harte for example are the mild manner gents that they come across in the media when they are dealing with all things Meath or Tyrone behind closed doors...
NL, I don't often disagree with you, but I have to on this. Micko plays the media in a way that Mickey Harte and Sean Boylan never did. Boylan was notoriously quiet. Micko has cultivated this image of a carefree, merry old man from Waterville who goes around the country spreading his gospel like one of the old evangelists. He claims to love pure football, slams negative tactics, and all the rest of it.
Nobody is taking away from his record, but I'd just like a bit of balance when they report on him, and stop trying to spoonfeed us this tripe and acting as Mickos personal PR machine. It sickens me, and it sickens a lot of people. I'm not asking the media to 'pick on him'. I'm asking them to stop spouting shite about him.
lads,
Micko has achieved what he set out to do today. He has deflected the media attention away from wicklow and then they get on with their preparation for the game against laois. Dont be surprised if he makes another statement next week. He did the same thing with laois - it was the paying players statement in the run up to a dublin game a few years back. He is the master "cute hoor" keeping the pressure off the players who are not used of it and lapping it up himself. I admire his zest for the game at 72 and his achievements speak for themselves
I don't think Boylan or Harte are sacred cows and certainly not comparable in the mercenary stakes. O'Dwyer's line about being a sort of football evangelist, spreading the gospel to the poor needy souls of lesser counties and not getting a penny for it really irks and is never challenged.
Seán Boylan never received a penny for his services to football and the GAA. As far as I know, neither did Mickey Harte. Nor has either of them ever stood before a camera to proclaim "I stand for good clean football" or indeed to aggrandise themselves in any way. It would be good if people would remember those facts before making spurious comparisons.
A thread that turns into a sprint for begrudgers to get in a queue.
What a reality check for today, there are no saints in the GAA without a blemish ::)
Micko's focus is to beat Laois, everything that is uttered even in his sleep, is geared to that end.
Quote from: Main Street on May 20, 2008, 12:16:05 PM
A thread that turns into a sprint for begrudgers to get in a queue.
What a reality check for today, there are no saints in the GAA without a blemish ::)
Micko's focus is to beat Laois, everything that is uttered even in his sleep, is geared to that end.
I resent being called a begrudger MS. I don't begrudge him a thing, but I am not going to swallow pure spin from him or anybody else about him. And as for the reality check, exactly. Some people need to take a reality check about Micko. Nobody, apart from the media and Micko, claims to be perfect, or claims perfection for somebody else. That's what I'm saying.
Quoteeverything that is uttered even in his sleep, is geared to that end
Someone that has bought into the hyperbole so much as to make this comment really proves a lot....
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 20, 2008, 12:23:33 PM
Quoteeverything that is uttered even in his sleep, is geared to that end
Someone that has bought into the hyperbole so much as to make this comment really proves a lot....
Absolutley. Micko is also a great ambassador for world peace and he loves little puppies. Whereas that Boylan fella >:( >:(
AZ,
its good to disagree every now and then.............
I actually have no particular gra for Micko. I didn't mean to imply that he was exactly the same as Harte or Boylan in all respects, its more that they all play the media and anyone/thing else they think that will get them an advantage. It's all about spin, spin and more spin. It goes on in club football in Longford. Leading up to a county final last year I don't think there was a word of truth told by the management of the 2 clubs involved for 3 weeks leading up to the game. Whatever Micko has done he has done a good job of it because for some reason the media have basically bought into it. Everything he has done has been for the benefit of 2 entities, the team he is with and himself. He has almost always done the trick for the team he is with and he has always done the trick for himself so everybody is happy.
The following list has something in common......John O'Mahony, Luke Dempsey, John Maughan, Eamon Coleman (RIP), Eugene McGee, Tommy Lyons, Tommy Carr, Paudi O'Shea etc etc.they've all trained more than one team and I'd say in most cases because of this fella ....$ . None of the above will say it and if asked they would give plenty of other reasons for doing it, some valid and some not. There's only a couple of differences between them and Micko. He will proclaim to be doing it for the love and good of the game more frequently but because of his longevity he has been asked why much more often. Do we think if John O'Mahony was asked why he has trained multiple county teams he'd say ah sure the few bob is great. Would we all be up in arms if he said he loved the games, he loved new challenges, he felt he had something to offer county X etc etc.....I doubt it. I really don't believe anyone expects Micko to say the money is great and more than anything else I'd say most of the GAA hierarchy would have a complete seizure if he did!
I suppose what I'm saying is that there's isn't that big a difference between them all in some ways...Micko is just at it longer and is better at it and has been as sucessful as them all put together probably.
And AZ being stuck between Kildare and Laois I can appreciate your frustration ;).........ya never know he could be available next year
I'm no fan of Micko. Apart from games against Meath or against Micko trained teams, I think Dublin have only lost one Leinster championship match in 25 years!
I think the main reason he gets little criticism is because he rarely under achieves. Yes he's "hungry", but no more so than Paidi O'Se, or half of Kerry for that matter. You can hardly blame Micko if the media ignore his bullshít
Quote from: North Longford on May 20, 2008, 12:46:23 PM
And AZ being stuck between Kildare and Laois I can appreciate your frustration ;).........ya never know he could be available next year
Their actually above us on the map but i see what your getting at :D
Too be honest I can see where AZ is coming from if not maybe being overly harsh about Micko but is it the media's hype over him you have a problem with or the man himself or both?
Obviously i wouldn't say a bad word against him after what he done for my county it might have been only a Leinster Final win but for a county that hadn't won it in over half a century i can honestly say no one in Laois would have cared what kind of a man or what tactics he used to win once we won,and i have no doubts AZ if he was to win an All Ireland for Offaly you wouldn't care what he was like either,and by all accounts it was Laois players who acted the f**k with him in the end that made him leave us
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on May 20, 2008, 12:59:15 PM
Quote from: North Longford on May 20, 2008, 12:46:23 PM
And AZ being stuck between Kildare and Laois I can appreciate your frustration ;).........ya never know he could be available next year
Their actually above us on the map but i see what your getting at :D
Too be honest I can see where AZ is coming from if not maybe being overly harsh about Micko but is it the media's hype over him you have a problem with or the man himself or both?
Obviously i wouldn't say a bad word against him after what he done for my county it might have been only a Leinster Final win but for a county that hadn't won it in over half a century i can honestly say no one in Laois would have cared what kind of a man or what tactics he used to win once we won,and i have no doubts AZ if he was to win an All Ireland for Offaly you wouldn't care what he was like either,and by all accounts it was Laois players who acted the f**k with him in the end that made him leave us
I have a problem with the image he is selling of himself, and the media's apparent delight to buy it, hook line and sinker. Most of my 'problem' is with the media though. They have created him, with his help, as something he isn't and are continually spouting rubbish about him.
So, I suppose the short answer is both, but with far more 'criticism' of the media. You almost have to admire his ability to play them. Almost :D
QuoteWhat about this complaint he has about Celine Dion and WestLife?
This is simply a tactic to motivate his players, who may feel that they've already overachieved. I imagine Micko feels that it may be much harder to get the same type of commitment out of them without some feeling that they've been wronged. Boylan had this to a fine art.
The fact is that the media do a poor job of portraying the man - if he gets away with it, then of course he is going to play on it, and he doesn't give 2 hoots what anyone thinks of him. Surely it's not his job to tell the media that they've got him all wrong and if it's been working for him for this length of time then he's hardly going to stop now, I agree with most of the negatives already written about his media antics but to pinpoint all the blame on Micko and not at the insipid media that fawn all over him is to put the blame in the wrong corner
Mercenary or not he has bought some counties up by the scruff of their necks to enjoy some of their finiest days in living memories - and he has broken no rules in the process (he may have instructed his players to but if anyone here thinks that Sean Boylan, Mickey Harte, John O'Mahoney or Kevin Heffernan were instructung their own players to play to the true spirit of the game at the expense of winning then they shouldn't be discussing this issue)
I don't doubt that money has changed hands but this has been the case for plenty of managers that have trained multiple county teams
He may have broken no rules, but his record for imported players is one area that makes me raise my eyebrows. His chasing of Dan Doona ('negotiations are ongoing') was a bit distasteful in itself.
But by and large I agree with you stephenite. He's trying to win, and the media are letting him away with stuff because they love him, and they love the 'story'.
OK AZ - I agree that his ability to entice players across borders leaves a sour taste but again, no rules were broken. My issue would be that it is permitted under the rules and he is let get away with it
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 20, 2008, 10:44:09 AM
AZ is right. Why Micko is a sacred cow is beyond me.
QuoteNorth Longford - because he has won all those things do you beleive he should be beyond reproach? You seem to be suggesting that if you achieve enough then you shouldn't be questioned. I'm sure CJH and Bertie would agree.
Sorry to go off topic for a second but i actually find those statements tremendously funny
Micko was a great player who won many things and a great manager who brought great success to teams that weren't use to it..
The media treat him as a darling and canonise him at every opportunity,Everyone should worship at the Altar of Micko so too speak and anyone that says a bad word against him is shot down
And this is what gets under magpie seanies skin about Micko.....
But on the other hand magpie seanie won't hear a word said against Roy Keane :D
QuoteOK AZ - I agree that his ability to entice players across borders leaves a sour taste but again, no rules were broken. My issue would be that it is permitted under the rules and he is let get away with it
I agree. I'm not saying he's a blackguard or anything. I'm saying he'll do anything to win, and will skirt with rules and will employ cynicism if he feels the need. Again, none of that would annoy me unduly, plenty of managers would do it, but he gets painted as being quite the opposite of that, and he plays on it too. Reinforces the myth at every opportunity, and that's what annoys me about him and about the media wrt him.
the ignorance of the football man that Micko is on this thread is just staggering. :o not a fecking clue...no doubt about it
Quote from: stephenite on May 20, 2008, 01:19:33 PM
OK AZ - I agree that his ability to entice players across borders leaves a sour taste but again, no rules were broken. My issue would be that it is permitted under the rules and he is let get away with it
That same argument is used to justify execution in the US.
Quote from: Zapatista on May 20, 2008, 01:26:06 PM
Quote from: stephenite on May 20, 2008, 01:19:33 PM
OK AZ - I agree that his ability to entice players across borders leaves a sour taste but again, no rules were broken. My issue would be that it is permitted under the rules and he is let get away with it
That same argument is used to justify execution in the US.
You're right - it's entirely the same thing when you think about it ::)
The point still stands that it's not right.
AZ
you couldnt be more right on this topic, we have for years been spoon fed this notion that he is a wandering messiah, dropping in on these counties and bringing them milk and honey. To be honest about then whole thing he has made a really good living from the GAA for years.
He is as cute and as cynical as every other manager but we are fed this media crap that he is just in it for the love of the game and the game is always better with his teams involved.
what a load of rubbish, equal praise and equal stick for every manager as per how their team is doing and none of the sentimental bullsh*t.
Quote from: Zapatista on May 20, 2008, 01:44:38 PM
The point still stands that it's not right.
Oh FFS - has it got to the stage where I now have to ask your opinion on it? You make a ridiculous analogy and then reply with a one liner, it's a discussion board, expand on your comments if you've something to say, instead of ridiculous one liners. >:(
Deep breath - why is the point not right?
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on May 20, 2008, 01:25:01 PM
the ignorance of the football man that Micko is on this thread is just staggering. :o not a fecking clue...no doubt about it
Have to agree with max on this one.
I think it was 1974/5 when he became kerry manager and has been involved at the top level almost continually since. 30 + yrs of inter county management and there are peole doubting his credentials.
Irrespective of your personal opinions towards the man, there is no doubting that he has brought the best out of the teams he has managed.
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on May 20, 2008, 01:25:01 PM
the ignorance of the football man that Micko is on this thread is just staggering. :o not a fecking clue...no doubt about it
The end justifys the means, a nod's as good as a wink to a blind horse etc, etc. If it was only football this was about and not all the stinking shit that goes with it then fair enough.
QuoteI agree that his ability to entice players across borders leaves a sour taste but again, no rules were broken. My issue would be that it is permitted under the rules and he is let get away with it
Bollox, rules were broken but the will does not exist to pursue the matter, same as payments to managers funny enough.
Calm down.
You said
I agree that his ability to entice players across borders leaves a sour taste but again, no rules were broken
The fact that no rules where broken does not mean it's OK to do it. I thnk this is what AZ is trying to say. AZ feels the bad taste you are talking about and the media ignore it as no rules where broken.
No you do not need my permission.
QuoteBut on the other hand magpie seanie won't hear a word said against Roy Keane
I shouldn't go down this road but I'm going to. I end up defending Roy Keane because a lot of the criticism thrown at him is unwarranted and irrational. Of course people struggling with conducting intelligent discussion extrapolate that to "magpie seanie won't hear a word said against Roy Keane" when it suits them. That's simply not the case but hey - never let the truth get in the way of a good attempt at charcter assasination. Roy Keane has many faults and the first person who would say that is Roy Keane. Did you ever hear Micko taking responsibility for a defeat, saying his tactics were wrong? Did you fcuk. So your comparison is flawed as is your wild assertion about what you think I believe.
Try and discuss the issue and not play the man.
Quote from: passedit on May 20, 2008, 02:02:45 PM
Bollox, rules were broken but the will does not exist to pursue the matter, same as payments to managers funny enough.
Can I ask you specifically,what rules were broken and when were they broken?
About broken rules, etc - I'm not saying Micko knew Tomás Walsh didn't live in Wicklow when he was invited to leave the Carlow team, because I have no evidence that he did. But I found that whole cynical episode disgusting, especially when the farce became known that Walsh didn't even know the address in Wicklow he was supposed to be living at.
I must say, while you had to admire Wicklow's performance on Sunday, it annoyed me just to look at that lad playing in a Wicklow jersey and to reflect on the fact that a Carlow man playing for Wicklow is just a foretaste of what we can expect when the professionalism bandwagon officially rolls into town.
BTW - Seanie - what you said raises a point I meant to comment on elsewhere. Whatever about my views on the merits and motivations of outside managers, I admired McGeeney's response after Sunday's hammering. No attempt to pin it on the players. "It's my fault", was more or less what he said. Very refreshing.
Quote from: Hardy on May 20, 2008, 02:19:42 PM
About broken rules, etc - I'm not saying Micko knew Tomás Walsh didn't live in Wicklow when he was invited to leave the Carlow team, because I have no evidence that he did. But I found that whole cynical episode disgusting, especially when the farce became known that Walsh didn't even know the address in Wicklow he was supposed to be living at.
I must say, while you had to admire Wicklow's performance on Sunday, it annoyed me just to look at that lad playing in a Wicklow jersey and to reflect on the fact that a Carlow man playing for Wicklow is just a foretaste of what we can expect when the professionalism bandwagon officially rolls into town.
BTW - Seanie - what you said raises a point I meant to comment on elsewhere. Whatever about my views on the merits and motivations of outside managers, I admired McGeeney's response after Sunday's hammering. No attempt to pin it on the players. "It's my fault", was more or less what he said. Very refreshing.
Cork won two All ireland with two Kildare men in 89 and 90....that hardly spelt the advent of professionalism even thou the two did not go for the good of their health. It happens occasionally in the GAA. And I emphasise very occasionally.
How many 'foreigners' has Micko used in his time in Kildare, Laois and now Wicklow? Is it above the national average? I know Lacey was from Tipp, and his son Karl was obviously from Kerry. At Laois, your man Sheehan is a kerry man, and obviously Tommy Walsh is Carlow, and Dan Doona is another Kerry exile, although that move has yet to happen.
Just to reiterate my stance. I have nothing but admiration for Micko and what he did for Kerry, Laois and Kildare. Wicklow's win on Sunday was promising also. His effect on football in all those counties is undeniable, although I think he joins a list of men who didn't get the very best out of Laois, even if he did do more than the rest.
My issues is with the 'cult' of Micko, rather than Micko the football man.
QuoteDan Doona is another Kerry exile
Played for NY the other week against Leitrim I think?
He did indeed Seanie. His move to Wicklow didn't go through. Micko was quoted as saying 'negotiations were ongoing' earlier this year, but Doona obviously felt the big apple was more appealing than the garden county.
Maximus - the difference is that Shea Fahy and Larry Tompkins legally transferred to Cork. They lived and worked there and actually knew their addresses. It's not unreasonable to transfer to the county where you live and work. When professionalism comes, they'll be transferring to the county TO work at football. I didn't say Walsh's move spelt the advent of professionalism. My point was that it's a foretaste of what it'll be like to go out and watch your "Derry" team composed of mercenaries. That's if Derry will have a team at all in the professional era, which is most unlikely, I'd say.
Quote from: Bensars on May 20, 2008, 01:56:56 PM
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on May 20, 2008, 01:25:01 PM
the ignorance of the football man that Micko is on this thread is just staggering. :o not a fecking clue...no doubt about it
Have to agree with max on this one.
I think it was 1974/5 when he became kerry manager and has been involved at the top level almost continually since. 30 + yrs of inter county management and there are peole doubting his credentials.
Irrespective of your personal opinions towards the man, there is no doubting that he has brought the best out of the teams he has managed.
[/b]
Couldn't agree more !
Quote from: orangeman on May 20, 2008, 03:02:17 PM
Quote from: Bensars on May 20, 2008, 01:56:56 PM
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on May 20, 2008, 01:25:01 PM
the ignorance of the football man that Micko is on this thread is just staggering. :o not a fecking clue...no doubt about it
Have to agree with max on this one.
I think it was 1974/5 when he became kerry manager and has been involved at the top level almost continually since. 30 + yrs of inter county management and there are peole doubting his credentials.
Irrespective of your personal opinions towards the man, there is no doubting that he has brought the best out of the teams he has managed.
[/b]
Couldn't agree more !
Number 1, who is doubting his credentials?
Number 2, I would agree, in general, but I still have a nagging feeling that 1 provincial title for an outstanding crop of players in Laois is poor return.
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 20, 2008, 02:10:06 PM
QuoteBut on the other hand magpie seanie won't hear a word said against Roy Keane
I shouldn't go down this road but I'm going to. I end up defending Roy Keane because a lot of the criticism thrown at him is unwarranted and irrational. Of course people struggling with conducting intelligent discussion extrapolatethat to "magpie seanie won't hear a word said against Roy Keane" when it suits them.That's simply not the case but hey - never let the truth get in the way of a good attempt at charcter assasination. Roy Keane has many faults and the first person who would say that is Roy Keane. Did you ever hear Micko taking responsibility for a defeat, saying his tactics were wrong? Did you fcuk. So your comparison is flawed as is your wild assertion about what you think I believe.
Try and discuss the issue and not play the man.
Your a funny aul hoor all the same even if a grumpy one :D
And i think that bit in bold is also a character assassination but sure as we know from your past on this board its one rule for you and a different for everyone else..
Too be honest I've always seen you as a bit of a hypocrite and your shite about Micko proves it too me and thats what i found so funny about the whole thing
Now be on with ya and try and discuss the issue and not play the man ;)
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 20, 2008, 02:41:24 PM
How many 'foreigners' has Micko used in his time in Kildare, Laois and now Wicklow? Is it above the national average? I know Lacey was from Tipp, and his son Karl was obviously from Kerry. At Laois, your man Sheehan is a kerry man, and obviously Tommy Walsh is Carlow, and Dan Doona is another Kerry exile, although that move has yet to happen.
Just to reiterate my stance. I have nothing but admiration for Micko and what he did for Kerry, Laois and Kildare. Wicklow's win on Sunday was promising also. His effect on football in all those counties is undeniable, although I think he joins a list of men who didn't get the very best out of Laois, even if he did do more than the rest.
My issues is with the 'cult' of Micko, rather than Micko the football man.
We also got Shane Cooke from Dublin,But the least said about him the better
QuoteNow be on with ya and try and discuss the issue and not play the man
I did. What I said was true and I explained why. What you said wasn't true. What's also completely untrue is the say that the bit you highlighted amounts to character assasination. It doesn't question your character in any way.
Please try to reply without calling me names this time.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 20, 2008, 03:03:48 PM
Quote from: orangeman on May 20, 2008, 03:02:17 PM
Quote from: Bensars on May 20, 2008, 01:56:56 PM
Quote from: Maximus Marillius on May 20, 2008, 01:25:01 PM
the ignorance of the football man that Micko is on this thread is just staggering. :o not a fecking clue...no doubt about it
Have to agree with max on this one.
I think it was 1974/5 when he became kerry manager and has been involved at the top level almost continually since. 30 + yrs of inter county management and there are peole doubting his credentials.
Irrespective of your personal opinions towards the man, there is no doubting that he has brought the best out of the teams he has managed.
[/b]
Couldn't agree more !
Number 1, who is doubting his credentials?
Number 2, I would agree, in general, but I still have a nagging feeling that 1 provincial title for an outstanding crop of players in Laois is poor return.
Laois would take him back in the morning but I'm not sure if they could agree terms or not !
The way some people go on about Croker you'd think it was heaven, mecca or eternal paradise ::)
have to say i'm starting to agree with the lads. he tried to entice declan browne to kildare as well. also a well known fact they trawled dublin looking for qualified players, but were blanked.The fact that the national media turn a blind eye to this blatant tapping up of players is not only a disgrace but a reflection on thier own profession. and is a sign of things to come when it does go professional.
Quote from: Gnevin on May 20, 2008, 04:18:59 PM
The way some people go on about Croker you'd think it was heaven, mecca or eternal paradise ::)
It's as close as you'll get on this earth. :D (Apart from Ferbane of course)
I wouldn't be a fan of the unquestioning fawning over Micko.
But it suits the media to portray him as thus.
Why turn it hostile and question the cynicalness, timewasting or diving of his teams?
You kill the myth and make him no different from most other managers.
It is much easier to spool out yards about the "loveable rogue", "cute Kerry hoor", "wise old sage" than to write about him as your typical successful football manager who will send out his teams with the best winning strategy.
Quote from: INDIANA on May 20, 2008, 04:19:27 PM
have to say i'm starting to agree with the lads. he tried to entice declan browne to kildare as well. also a well known fact they trawled dublin looking for qualified players, but were blanked.The fact that the national media turn a blind eye to this blatant tapping up of players is not only a disgrace but a reflection on thier own profession. and is a sign of things to come when it does go professional.
[/b]
In case you didn't notice Indiana, it is now professional - we are getting paid to train / play etc, turn up for photo shoots, advertising etc - no more amateurs in Ireland !
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 20, 2008, 04:16:55 PM
QuoteNow be on with ya and try and discuss the issue and not play the man
I did. What I said was true and I explained why. What you said wasn't true. What's also completely untrue is the say that the bit you highlighted amounts to character assasination. It doesn't question your character in any way.
Please try to reply without calling me names this time.
Sorry i shouldn't have called you a funny hoor....
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 20, 2008, 02:41:24 PM
How many 'foreigners' has Micko used in his time in Kildare, Laois and now Wicklow? Is it above the national average? I know Lacey was from Tipp, and his son Karl was obviously from Kerry. At Laois, your man Sheehan is a kerry man, and obviously Tommy Walsh is Carlow, and Dan Doona is another Kerry exile, although that move has yet to happen.
Brian Murphy of Cork and Garvan Ware of Carlow also togged out for Kildare during the Micko era.
Granted some of them might be for valid reasons given that Kildare is part of the Dublin burbs and has seen a lot of inward migration.
I think you've proved my point. Thanks.
Wholeheartedly agree with AZ, Micko gets a free ride in the media. I actually think it's a problem that encompasses the county of Kerry itself, anyone remember the hoofing of high balls into Donaghy being hailed as some sort of tactical masterstroke? - like it had never been done before. Kerry in general have always been cynical, make no mistake excellent footballers, but always prepared to be nasty.
One thing I noticed on Sunday too was Brolly and O'Rourke's insistence that Kildare would be negative - any time I saw Kildare attacking Wicklow had 10 me or so behind their own 50!
As Jack Charlton once said - "If you get a reputation as an early riser you can lie to midday"
Quote from: Bord na Mona man on May 20, 2008, 04:23:59 PM
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 20, 2008, 02:41:24 PM
How many 'foreigners' has Micko used in his time in Kildare, Laois and now Wicklow? Is it above the national average? I know Lacey was from Tipp, and his son Karl was obviously from Kerry. At Laois, your man Sheehan is a kerry man, and obviously Tommy Walsh is Carlow, and Dan Doona is another Kerry exile, although that move has yet to happen.
Brian Murphy of Cork and Garvan Ware of Carlow also togged out for Kildare during the Micko era.
Granted some of them might be for valid reasons given that Kildare is part of the Dublin burbs and has seen a lot of inward migration.
Cork couldn't be described as part of the Dublin burbs, could it ??
Larry Thompkins and Shea Fahy went to Cork and won a hatful of medals - I never heard anyone castigating Billy Morgan for that !
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 20, 2008, 04:24:21 PM
I think you've proved my point. Thanks.
You'll have to do the quote bit or no one will know what your talking about...
QuoteNever ceases to amaze me the amount of people queing up to crawl up the carpetbagger's hole.
I can't stand the p***k.
Quote from: pintsofguinness on May 20, 2008, 06:51:29 PM
QuoteNever ceases to amaze me the amount of people queing up to crawl up the carpetbagger's hole.
I can't stand the p***k.
Ah come on pints tell us how you really feel stop sitting on the fence :D
So how did all these players qualify? Does Thomas Walsh not actually live in Wicklow then? Did Lacey and Karl O'Dwyer both live in Kildare when they played for the county?
Mick O'Dwyer has been slandered and villified on this board and other boards like it for years. There have also been plenty of innuendo in the media so this idea that he gets a free ride in the media is complete bullshit. All this has had an effect.Has any other manager been singled out by the revenue and investigated ? ..and despite the fact that nothing untoward was found people still slander him....
There seems to be one law for Micko Dwyer on here and another one for everyone else. people think they can make whatever statements they like about him without proof or impunity. And ye bring up Sean Boylan as some anti-micko...sweet jesus...everytime I have read an article about Sean Boylan it has been a eulogy from the first word to the last. Even when he lost it was always implied that the players let him down. And how many times has he stood for a post match interview and talked about "good clean football" depsite the reputation that his Meath side had..................has this saintly portrayal been challenged ? like f**k it has !
I've nothing against Sean Boylan and dont want this to turn into a Boylan v micko spat but the sheer hypocrisy of people on here is mind boggling...and what all started this off anyway..a div 4 side win their first championship in ages and the media say nice things about their 70 year old loveable rouge of a coach...IS THIS A F**KING SURPRISE TO YE.....jesus christ what a bunch of begrudging c**ts
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 20, 2008, 08:14:51 PM
Mick O'Dwyer has been slandered and villified on this board and other boards like it for years. There have also been plenty of innuendo in the media so this idea that he gets a free ride in the media is complete bullshit. All this has had an effect.Has any other manager been singled out by the revenue and investigated ? ..and despite the fact that nothing untoward was found people still slander him....
There seems to be one law for Micko Dwyer on here and another one for everyone else. people think they can make whatever statements they like about him without proof or impunity. And ye bring up Sean Boylan as some anti-micko...sweet jesus...everytime I have read an article about Sean Boylan it has been a eulogy from the first word to the last. Even when he lost it was always implied that the players let him down. And how many times has he stood for a post match interview and talked about "good clean football" depsite the reputation that his Meath side had..................has this saintly portrayal been challenged ? like f**k it has !
I've nothing against Sean Boylan and dont want this to turn into a Boylan v micko spat but the sheer hypocrisy of people on here is mind boggling...and what all started this off anyway..a div 4 side win their first championship in ages and the media say nice things about their 70 year old loveable rouge of a coach...IS THIS A F**KING SURPRISE TO YE.....jesus christ what a bunch of begrudging c**ts
Well f**king said
Mike, I'm getting worried about you. You'll give yourself an ulcer. (I nearly said Ulster). Why all the anger?
I just didn't want to let your characterisation of me (since I'm one of those who dared to criticise Micko) as a "begrudging c**t" pass without comment. I'm not.
I remember having this conversation with you years ago. Sure there are no new subjects here, really. Anyway, the same situation still stands. You can't make me like Micko (and certainly not by calling me names) and the fact that I don't like him isn't some inexcusable slight on the people of Kerry.
Just a quick answer to your question. The number of times I know of that Sean Boylan 'stood for a post match interview and talked about "good clean football" ' is zero.
A transfer one county over will always raise more eyebrows. Obviously Tompkins transfer to Cork was preceded by some well known rows he had with the Kildare county board so there might have been more to that, but even then no-one would realistically expect anyone to travel from Cork to Kildare or vice versa for training. Some players may choose to do it, but it's hardly realistic to expect it.
Transfers just across the border however will invariably raise suspicions much more so. Ware going from Carlow to Kildare, Walsh going from Carlow to Wicklow, it's not as if these players were suddenly hundreds of miles from training.
Speaking personally, Micko was a great player and manager in his day, but his day is gone and he uses cheap tricks now to get by. He did well at Kildare, but he went to Laois at a time when they had huge potential with some of the best talents in the country about to mature into intercounty. He turned that potential into one Leinster title and not a single AI semi Final appearance. Some may call that a great achievement, I wouldn't. I would call it a little below par - at a time when Leinster football teams were generally uncompetitive in a national context and when arguably the province was the easiest won of all time.
His teams dive incessantly, they are invariably masters of the art of time wasting, they play a horrible looking brand of basketball where every second handpass is barely legal and often not at all and then he'll go whinging to the media who will duly lap it up.
Regarding last Sunday, Micko's very presence got people playing football for the county that never were before, while speaking as neutral, while there were no underhand tactics in that match, it was much more a game that Kildare lost than Wicklow won. The standard was poor, Kildare had no attacking threat barring Smith and McGeeney made a balls of selection by putting two old men in the middle who weren't able for the pace. Anyone saying that it was some managing miracle akin to guiding Leitrim to their Connacht title or Clare to their Munster championship clearly doesn't get football.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 20, 2008, 08:14:51 PM
Mick O'Dwyer has been slandered and villified on this board and other boards like it for years. There have also been plenty of innuendo in the media so this idea that he gets a free ride in the media is complete bullshit. All this has had an effect.Has any other manager been singled out by the revenue and investigated ? ..and despite the fact that nothing untoward was found people still slander him....
There seems to be one law for Micko Dwyer on here and another one for everyone else. people think they can make whatever statements they like about him without proof or impunity. And ye bring up Sean Boylan as some anti-micko...sweet jesus...everytime I have read an article about Sean Boylan it has been a eulogy from the first word to the last. Even when he lost it was always implied that the players let him down. And how many times has he stood for a post match interview and talked about "good clean football" depsite the reputation that his Meath side had..................has this saintly portrayal been challenged ? like f**k it has !
I've nothing against Sean Boylan and dont want this to turn into a Boylan v micko spat but the sheer hypocrisy of people on here is mind boggling...and what all started this off anyway..a div 4 side win their first championship in ages and the media say nice things about their 70 year old loveable rouge of a coach...IS THIS A F**KING SURPRISE TO YE.....jesus christ what a bunch of begrudging c**ts
Hi Mike,
Like Hardy, I'm not going to allow that comment about "begrudging cnuts" pass without refuting it. A lot of lads on here know my respect and admiration for Kerry football, and I was raised admiring and falling in love with football through the great Kerry teams of the 70s and 80s. My in-laws are all Kerry, and I spend a lot of my time down there, and following them around when Offaly get knocked out. (Usually early June!! :D). So my perspective is not the same as some of your usual sparring partners on this board, far from it.
Now, as for the point at hand. I will try and succintly lay out the main areas of my opinion re. Micko, and especially his relationship with the media. I have made the same points many times over the years, and am not suddenly 'begrudging' the man his success because of last Sunday. In fact I am not begrudging the man at all. Feel free to pick holes in my opinions if you feel like it, but don't try and start an insult war, because I don't do them.
1) Mick O'Dwyer was a great player, and is a great coach. Has been an absolutely fantastic man manager since he took over Kerry, and is probably a better technician than many people think. I've heard people in Kerry say that 'anyone could have managed the golden team' and I disagree strongly with it. He had to handle a huge array of personalities, and keep them coming back to the well again, and again, hungrier every time. The bounce back after 82 and 83 was Lazarus-like.
2) Mick O'Dwyer, in my opinion, is as ready to employ cynicism as a tactic as any other manager. There are various examples of it, but the one I always point to is the inordinate amount of 'handy' frees won by Laois and Kildare especially once he took over. My opinion is that he didn't trust his lads to kick points from play, so he instructed them to go down in order to win frees, of which a high percentage would be scored. I'm not suggesting he instructed them to feign injury or get lads sent off, but as far as I'm concerned, Laois and Kildare, in his stints there, used this tactic. I am not alone in this opinion, and certainly if you talk to any of the lads who played against those teams in those years, you will hear this from several. I know I have.
3) Mick O'Dwyer has always attempted to 'recruit' outsiders to his adopted counties in order to strengthen them. Again my opinion, it could be purely coincidental that there have been many transferees into counties Micko trained, or maybe they are attracted by the chance to work with him, but whatever the reason, he seems to have a much higher than normal ratio of such players.
4) Mick O'Dwyer plays the media like no one else before or, I suspect, afterwards. He has built an image of himself as a footballing evangelist, a purist who would never sink to employing crude or cynical tactics.
5) The media, for whatever reason, are unwilling or unable to see beyond this, and offer up criticisms of him in the same way they would of Kernan, Harte, Lyons, O'Mahony or any other manager. Instead they continually, for the past 20 years and more, feed us stories of this caricature of the man, a dancing, twinkle eyed, magical pied piper type from Waterville.
They are my main points regarding Micko. As I say, feel free to argue where you feel I am wrong, or misinformed. But bear in mind I am not trying to score cheap points off anybody, least of all Kerry football or Micko the manager. It's Micko the PR creation I have trouble with.
Cheers
Quote from: Lone Shark on May 20, 2008, 08:48:28 PM
Speaking personally, Micko was a great player and manager in his day, but his day is gone and he uses cheap tricks now to get by. He did well at Kildare, but he went to Laois at a time when they had huge potential with some of the best talents in the country about to mature into intercounty. He turned that potential into one Leinster title and not a single AI semi Final appearance. Some may call that a great achievement, I wouldn't. I would call it a little below par - at a time when Leinster football teams were generally uncompetitive in a national context and when arguably the province was the easiest won of all time.
Speaking from a Laois point of view i wouldn't be so quick to blame Micko for Laois's lack of success,There was a lot of over inflated egos on them Laois teams and i think they felt because they had won Leinsters/All Ireland's at minor that a senior All Ireland was just going to happen without much effort..
Sure you can hardly blame Dwyer for a last minute loss to Dublin in '05 or Mayo scoring two late points in the 1/4 Final of '06..
Maybe Dwyer should have taken them further but he was working with a lot of players who thought they knew more than him and believed too much of their own hype..
And some of the backroom staff weren't much better...
Micko's not that bad. He has some sort of oracle.
Mike, I know this is something you feel strongly about but I think your rant is a bit ott and certainly misplaced with the likes of AZ, Hardy and dare I say it myself. Most people have huge admiration for Micko and what he has achieved as a player and a manager, me included. I grew up watching that great Kerry team that he managed and would have the highest admiration for Kerry football. That won't ever change.
I think it is legitimate though to raise the couple of issues that AZ has and wonder why the media don't question it more without being called hypocrites or begrudgung c***s.
Quote from: The Real Laoislad on May 20, 2008, 09:05:24 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on May 20, 2008, 08:48:28 PM
Speaking personally, Micko was a great player and manager in his day, but his day is gone and he uses cheap tricks now to get by. He did well at Kildare, but he went to Laois at a time when they had huge potential with some of the best talents in the country about to mature into intercounty. He turned that potential into one Leinster title and not a single AI semi Final appearance. Some may call that a great achievement, I wouldn't. I would call it a little below par - at a time when Leinster football teams were generally uncompetitive in a national context and when arguably the province was the easiest won of all time.
Speaking from a Laois point of view i wouldn't be so quick to blame Micko for Laois's lack of success,There was a lot of over inflated egos on them Laois teams and i think they felt because they had won Leinsters/All Ireland's at minor that a senior All Ireland was just going to happen without much effort..
Sure you can hardly blame Dwyer for a last minute loss to Dublin in '05 or Mayo scoring two late points in the 1/4 Final of '06..
Maybe Dwyer should have taken them further but he was working with a lot of players who thought they knew more than him and believed too much of their own hype..
And some of the backroom staff weren't much better...
(1) The game is seventy minutes long. If you're to give O'Dwyer any credit for 03 when it took a late (illegitimate!!) goal to save ye against us in the first quarter final in Portlaoise then he must take the blame for conceding late in other games - it cuts both ways.
(2) If Mick O'Dwyer, a man who managed countless players with more all Irelands than limbs, cannot impress on Laois players how insignificant minor and provincial medals are in the greater scheme of things, then I think it is fair to say that his management is not up to the standard of when he was in charge of Kerry where, as AZ said, his biggest achievement was getting lads to keep coming back year after year despite ever burgeoning CVs.
(3) His backroom staff were his choice.
This is exactly the point of this thread. Micko was a great player, the game's greatest ever manager, but since 2000 he's done feck all and yet the legend lives on in the eyes of the fawning media, while there's nowhere in the room to turn but for huge elephants that we're not allowed to talk about.
Quote from: Lone Shark on May 20, 2008, 10:25:15 PM
This is exactly the point of this thread. Micko was a great player, the game's greatest ever manager, but since 2000 he's done feck all and yet the legend lives on in the eyes of the fawning media, while there's nowhere in the room to turn but for huge elephants that we're not allowed to talk about.
Greatest ever managers and great players usually are legends. To have 2 in one is rare.
There is no end date on the legend of the greatest ever manager.
"Since 2000 he has done feck all"
This type of drivel does no credit to some semblance of some rational debate hidden away in a few posts on this thread.
micko's greatest skill is getting inside players heads and man-mangement. inother words giving players the belief they can win. his ability to do this in counties bereft of success has been quite incredible whether you like him or dislike him. i don't believe anyone else can do it as well at the moment and that's a great credit to him.
it's this constant courting of players from other counties that i don't like about him. and i make no apologies for it. part of coaching is getting the best out of what you have. not looking around to see who can be brought in.
The man is a true great in GAA circles - a legend in our time going over several genarations.
Long live the legend !!!
Quote from: Main Street on May 20, 2008, 10:39:48 PM
Quote from: Lone Shark on May 20, 2008, 10:25:15 PM
This is exactly the point of this thread. Micko was a great player, the game's greatest ever manager, but since 2000 he's done feck all and yet the legend lives on in the eyes of the fawning media, while there's nowhere in the room to turn but for huge elephants that we're not allowed to talk about.
Greatest ever managers and great players usually are legends. To have 2 in one is rare.
There is no end date on the legend of the greatest ever manager.
"Since 2000 he has done feck all"
This type of drivel does no credit to some semblance of some rational debate hidden away in a few posts on this thread.
Pele was widely recognised as one of the greatest ever soccer players. That doesn't mean that if you put him in the Brazil team tomorrow that he would do well. He wouldn't. However if he had Mick O'Dwyer's media management skills he'd be lauded for his performance and Real Madrid would be lining up a bid to put him in alongside Van Nistelrooy.
Obviously Micko remains a legend of gaelic football irrespective of whatever he does, because of what he did in charge of Kerry. The point of this thread is that he seems to be getting a free ride now because of that. He is way past his best achievement wise and just because he remains a legend doesn't mean that he should be above reproach for what he does now.
And he has achieved feck all since 2000. Under no circumstances would I (or indeed many others) consider his time in Laois anything other than par (at best) and possibly even downright poor given the talent he had to work with.
Of course Micko will always be a media favourite when he practically writes the stories for them. He will never shy away from a reporter and is cute enough to hugely influence the story as he would want it to appear. In the main the benficiaries are: (1) the County he is managing (2) the GAA in general and (3) Micko himself. He puts the GAA in the shade in terms of providing PR for Gaelic Football.
In my opinion it's very unfair and a very cheap shot to accuse him of cynical tactics. There is no doubt that diving occurs in Gaelic Football as it does in soccer. However to brand Micko's teams (or Tyrone for that matter as they have been accused in the past) as divers is very offensive. It's very easy to give a dog a bad name but a sweeping accusation without providing any evidence is out of order. I've no doubt that there were diving incidents involving Micko's teams but it can happen with any County team. I would also point out that in Gaelic Football (and soccer) it is can be hard for players to stay on their feet after minimal contact with an opponent due to the speed of the games - this does not make them divers.
Micko has been a great ambassador for the GAA. No doubt he has his personal agenda and his failings but overall his contribution to Gaelic Football has been hugely positive.
Micko is in his seventies. Credit to him that he still keeps going. My old man was in his grave by then without having done much if anything wrong. I m sure Micko is aware of his advanced years but he feels he has something to offer still. Great to see that desire for the game still at his age. He is still vital and if he pulls an odd stroke to his teams advantage so what? Who does nt? Micko is nt in this for dosh - Im sure he does nt need it. I m sure he believes his methods are best and to hell with Johnny Come Lately Managers and stuff. Its good he s still around. Again, wish we had him for a while.
QuoteMike, I know this is something you feel strongly about but I think your rant is a bit ott and certainly misplaced with the likes of AZ, Hardy and dare I say it myself. Most people have huge admiration for Micko and what he has achieved as a player and a manager, me included. I grew up watching that great Kerry team that he managed and would have the highest admiration for Kerry football. That won't ever change.
I think it is legitimate though to raise the couple of issues that AZ has and wonder why the media don't question it more without being called hypocrites or begrudgung c***s.
Of course I feel strongly about it. Like I said, the constant innuendo about Micko has had a very real impact on his life...and yes, you are right, Hardy and AZ are not begrudging c**ts which is why it is so disappointing to read their comments. I know Micko is no saint and they have a right to raise questions but every scenario involving micko always seems to involve Micko as the sleeveen. Do people not think that Brian Lacey, Thomas Walsh, the Kildare supporters club and all the other parties involved in these "controversies" had a part to play ? As Johnny Rotten said, no one is innocent.
And, again, where is this idea that the media give micko a free ride ? On this very thread alone there was mention of Paddy Heaney having a dig at him... I did a quick search on some articles leading up to the game....this lad has a go, nothing major, but certainly no deification
http://www.irishexaminer.com/text/story.asp?j=mhqlkfojojcwojau&p=37y5584x&n=37155939 (http://www.irishexaminer.com/text/story.asp?j=mhqlkfojojcwojau&p=37y5584x&n=37155939)
here's an article giving background on Walshes defection from Carlow. So, Larry Tompkins gets a pass becasue he had a falling out with Kildare yet Micko is a bollix for dragging Walsh away from the perfect relationship he had with Carlow ?
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/vincent-hogan/rebel-with-a-cause-1378711.html (http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/vincent-hogan/rebel-with-a-cause-1378711.html)
There are two (or more) sides to every story that micko is involved with but some of you lads always go with the one that has Micko as the sleeveen.
AZ,
QuoteHi Mike,
Like Hardy, I'm not going to allow that comment about "begrudging cnuts" pass without refuting it. A lot of lads on here know my respect and admiration for Kerry football, and I was raised admiring and falling in love with football through the great Kerry teams of the 70s and 80s. My in-laws are all Kerry, and I spend a lot of my time down there, and following them around when Offaly get knocked out. (Usually early June!! ). So my perspective is not the same as some of your usual sparring partners on this board, far from it.
Fair enough, but there are plenty in Kerry who have a go as well. In fact, I'm sure Dromid has its share of anti-micko sentiment as you well know. Local disputes are like any disputes i.e there are two sides to them.
QuoteNow, as for the point at hand. I will try and succintly lay out the main areas of my opinion re. Micko, and especially his relationship with the media. I have made the same points many times over the years, and am not suddenly 'begrudging' the man his success because of last Sunday. In fact I am not begrudging the man at all. Feel free to pick holes in my opinions if you feel like it, but don't try and start an insult war, because I don't do them.
1) Mick O'Dwyer was a great player, and is a great coach. Has been an absolutely fantastic man manager since he took over Kerry, and is probably a better technician than many people think. I've heard people in Kerry say that 'anyone could have managed the golden team' and I disagree strongly with it. He had to handle a huge array of personalities, and keep them coming back to the well again, and again, hungrier every time. The bounce back after 82 and 83 was Lazarus-like.
2) Mick O'Dwyer, in my opinion, is as ready to employ cynicism as a tactic as any other manager. There are various examples of it, but the one I always point to is the inordinate amount of 'handy' frees won by Laois and Kildare especially once he took over. My opinion is that he didn't trust his lads to kick points from play, so he instructed them to go down in order to win frees, of which a high percentage would be scored. I'm not suggesting he instructed them to feign injury or get lads sent off, but as far as I'm concerned, Laois and Kildare, in his stints there, used this tactic. I am not alone in this opinion, and certainly if you talk to any of the lads who played against those teams in those years, you will hear this from several. I know I have.
If he is "as ready" as other managers then lets name and shame ....lets not always pick on the same guy. Seems fair dont you think ?
Martin Lynch , I believe, had a reputation for falling over but , apart from him, I would not consider that Kildare team as divers. I think their Leinster neighbours envy at their sudden success had a lot to do with their reputation. As for Laois, they were a light team that did not compete as well physically, that did not make them divers.
Quote3) Mick O'Dwyer has always attempted to 'recruit' outsiders to his adopted counties in order to strengthen them. Again my opinion, it could be purely coincidental that there have been many transferees into counties Micko trained, or maybe they are attracted by the chance to work with him, but whatever the reason, he seems to have a much higher than normal ratio of such players.
Do you know the intimate details of all those cases ? Did Brian Lacey have his own reasons for playing for Kildare perhaps....I've already posted the article above about Walsh and why he transferred from Carlow. Of course Micko may attract these players , thats hardly his fault
Quote4) Mick O'Dwyer plays the media like no one else before or, I suspect, afterwards. He has built an image of himself as a footballing evangelist, a purist who would never sink to employing crude or cynical tactics.
5) The media, for whatever reason, are unwilling or unable to see beyond this, and offer up criticisms of him in the same way they would of Kernan, Harte, Lyons, O'Mahony or any other manager. Instead they continually, for the past 20 years and more, feed us stories of this caricature of the man, a dancing, twinkle eyed, magical pied piper type from Waterville.
You must have a short memory AZ. Micko was literally hounded out of the Kerry Job and the media played their part. He also had dark days in Kildare and Laois where his ability and tactics were questioned. The rules of Gaelic Football were changed for christ sakes ! due in no small part to a media campaign against Mickos handpass tactics with Kerry. "Micko Dwyer , the man whose killing football" was the general gist of it.
I do know he's been above any kind of fine or ban from officials for
blatant and consistent pitch encroachments over the years...
Lads, interesting debate but from a Kildare perspective before Micko took charge Kildare were in a worse state than they are today, he literally rose Kildare football from the dead. We will always be grateful for that and apart from maybe Martin Lynch Kildare didn't dive, example just look at the 1997 three game saga between Meath and Kildare, an epic series of football played as it should be. However what I will say is that because of Kildare's hand passing style, we worked the ball very close to goals and won many a free because of that, Padriag Gravin only got his place because he was an accurate free taker. It was not deliberate tactic to dive and I'm sure Willy McCreevy, Glen Ryan et al would be horrified if I ever accused them of that.
Also Brian Lacey was living in Kildare Town and playing for Towers before he joined up with the County panel, Brian was working in the IFSC and couldn't commute to Tipp. He was approached to join the Kildare panel and duly did, at 35 he still plays for Towers and I watched him play Saturday evening in The Park. He wasn't a mercenary and neither was Brian Murphy who moved to Kildare in the mid 90s from Cork and was playing with Clane for a couple of years before he got called up. Likewise Garvan Ware who was working in and playing for Clane, he was invited onto the panel for one year and it didn't work out for him. Kildare is a commuter county, we will always have a larger share of blow-ins than any other county.
The only player I would question is Karl, Micko's son I have no doubt he moved to Kildare under directions from his Dad, but he taught in Rathangan and played his football there and then for Towers. Oh and make no mistake Larry Tompkins did not go to Cork because of work, he went there to play inter-county football.
The Declan Browne/Kildare thing is an urban myth, has Declan Browne ever come out and said Micko approached him?
I'm as cynical as the next person and yes Micko does get a free ride from the media and to be honest I don't mind and long may the man continue because I can guarantee you as this thread testifies he stirs debate and gets people talking about the GAA and will be greatly missed when he does retire.
Quote
AZ
Fair enough, but there are plenty in Kerry who have a go as well. In fact, I'm sure Dromid has its share of anti-micko sentiment as you well know. Local disputes are like any disputes i.e there are two sides to them.
That's true, and I alluded to the fact when I said there are people down there who say anyone could have managed that Kerry team, incorrectly in my view.
Quote
If he is "as ready" as other managers then lets name and shame ....lets not always pick on the same guy. Seems fair dont you think ?
Martin Lynch , I believe, had a reputation for falling over but , apart from him, I would not consider that Kildare team as divers. I think their Leinster neighbours envy at their sudden success had a lot to do with their reputation. As for Laois, they were a light team that did not compete as well physically, that did not make them divers.
Yes, he is *as* ready to employ it. That's my point. I'm not saying he is any worse than anybody else in the tactics he employs, but the media would have you believe that he would never stoop to that. He is held up as the antithesis of all the modern ills. A football purist. Again, no worse than a lot of others, and you can watch the games yourself to see which teams do it, but he does it as well. And I'll just have to disagree with you about Kildare and Laois. It was quite clear from watching those teams that they looked for contact when soloing the ball, and when they got it, they went down for a free. That's my opinion.
Quote
Do you know the intimate details of all those cases ? Did Brian Lacey have his own reasons for playing for Kildare perhaps....I've already posted the article above about Walsh and why he transferred from Carlow. Of course Micko may attract these players , thats hardly his fault
No, it's not his fault if he is not actively recruiting them, but whatever the reason he tends to have a lot more than the average influx. I had even forgotten about some of the others that the lads mentioned above. But that aspect, again, is rarely mentioned in connection with him, by the media, certainly in any questioning way.
Quote
You must have a short memory AZ. Micko was literally hounded out of the Kerry Job and the media played their part. He also had dark days in Kildare and Laois where his ability and tactics were questioned. The rules of Gaelic Football were changed for christ sakes ! due in no small part to a media campaign against Mickos handpass tactics with Kerry. "Micko Dwyer , the man whose killing football" was the general gist of it.
The reason, as I recall, that he was 'hounded' out of Kerry was that he had held on too long to the same batch of players, and his loyalty to them, and theirs to him, meant that when they went, Kerry hit a fallow period. I don't think he was 'hounded' out in any other sense, but you would probably have better memory of that than me. As for dark days in Laois and Kildare with tactics, well, apart from the things I am talking about, and the other lads alluded to, I can't remember any criticism like that other than from fans watching the games and talking about it. And I certainly can't recall any of even that in the media. I'm open to correction on that point, but I certainly don't remember a 'Micko is killing football' campaign.
I don't think we disagree that much Mike. Maybe you are thinking I am singling out Micko for criticism above other managers. I'm not. That's why I say he is 'as ready' as other managers to do whatever it takes to win. Again, I have no real problem with that. But it is my impression that, far from being unfair on him, or even just fair to him, the media have decided to just overlook or brush over his 'faults' in a way that they wouldn't for other managers and have thus made a public caricature of the man which is not reflective of the reality. And Micko plays to that gallery, again because he knows it benefits him and his team.
Quote from: Dinny Breen on May 21, 2008, 09:24:51 AM
Lads, interesting debate but from a Kildare perspective before Micko took charge Kildare were in a worse state than they are today, he literally rose Kildare football from the dead. We will always be grateful for that and apart from maybe Martin Lynch Kildare didn't dive, example just look at the 1997 three game saga between Meath and Kildare, an epic series of football played as it should be. However what I will say is that because of Kildare's hand passing style, we worked the ball very close to goals and won many a free because of that, Padriag Gravin only got his place because he was an accurate free taker. It was not deliberate tactic to dive and I'm sure Willy McCreevy, Glen Ryan et al would be horrified if I ever accused them of that.
Also Brian Lacey was living in Kildare Town and playing for Towers before he joined up with the County panel, Brian was working in the IFSC and couldn't commute to Tipp. He was approached to join the Kildare panel and duly did, at 35 he still plays for Towers and I watched him play Saturday evening in The Park. He wasn't a mercenary and neither was Brian Murphy who moved to Kildare in the mid 90s from Cork and was playing with Clane for a couple of years before he got called up. Likewise Garvan Ware who was working in and playing for Clane, he was invited onto the panel for one year and it didn't work out for him. Kildare is a commuter county, we will always have a larger share of blow-ins than any other county.
The only player I would question is Karl, Micko's son I have no doubt he moved to Kildare under directions from his Dad, but he taught in Rathangan and played his football there and then for Towers. Oh and make no mistake Larry Tompkins did not go to Cork because of work, he went there to play inter-county football.
The Declan Browne/Kildare thing is an urban myth, has Declan Browne ever come out and said Micko approached him?
I'm as cynical as the next person and yes Micko does get a free ride from the media and to be honest I don't mind and long may the man continue because I can guarantee you as this thread testifies he stirs debate and gets people talking about the GAA and will be greatly missed when he does retire.
Good contribution Dinny, even though I disagree with a lot of it :D I know I'm looking at it a bit cynically myself, but I will just have to agree to disagree with you regarding the Kildare free situation. Martin Lynch was an obvious culprit, but in my opinion there was more than him at it. You might say 'because of Kildare's hand passing style, we worked the ball very close to goals and won many a free because of that', but I say ye worked it close to goals, and then when there was an opportunity Kildare looked for the free. Obviously I can't prove this scientifically, but It's certainly my opinion. I firmly believe Laois also used this tactic.
I will take your word for it re. the Kildare transferees.
As for your last paragraph, again, I will just differ in that when he gets a free ride, I do mind. But I will heartily agree on a few things. 1) He stirs debate. 2) Long may he continue and 3) He will be missed.
Quote from: Tyrones own on May 21, 2008, 04:14:28 AM
I do know he's been above any kind of fine or ban from officials for
blatant and consistent pitch encroachments over the years...
Name other managers who have been fined for pitch encroachments ?
FFS how petty is that. Rumour has it that he also parked in a mother and toddlers space at Tescos once ::)
Quote from: Bensars on May 21, 2008, 09:43:52 AM
Quote from: Tyrones own on May 21, 2008, 04:14:28 AM
I do know he's been above any kind of fine or ban from officials for
blatant and consistent pitch encroachments over the years...
Name other managers who have been fined for pitch encroachments ?
FFS how petty is that. Rumour has it that he also parked in a mother and toddlers space at Tescos once ::)
No, that was pints.
Just thought I would post the Paddy Heaney article for a bit of craic...
From irishnews.com
"I didn't think: 'The last manager must have been a poor coach, I'm going to go on to the ground, put my hand on their shoulders and turn them into better players.' I'm not God or something. I'm not clever enough to do that.' Harry Redknapp
On Saturday Harry Redknapp led Portsmouth to their first FA Cup Final victory in 69 years. His team had also finished eighth in the Premier League, Pompey's best league placing in 52 years. Harry's strength as a boss comes from his acceptance that there are limitations to what any manager can do.
Redknapp knows that a manager can't turn bad players into good ones, so when co-owner Alexandre Gaydamak arrived on the south coast, Harry's first request was for "11 new players''. Redknapp went shopping and Portsmouth prospered.
Like Harry Redknapp, Mick O'Dwyer also accepts that there are limitations to his undisputed brilliance as a manager.
Despite the eight All-Irelands he won while in charge of Kerry, there were always some doubts about O'Dwyer's claims to greatness. Such was the quality of the players at his disposal in Kerry, there was a notion that it was only a matter of picking the team.
But O'Dwyer's achievements outside his native county have proved beyond question that when it comes to management, he has the Midas touch.
Guiding Kildare to their first Leinster title in 42 years, and then Laois to their first provincial title in 57 years rank alongside any of his accomplishments with Kerry.
And at the weekend, the 71-year-old continued his miracle-weaving when he led Wicklow to a four-point victory over Kildare.
Young managers like Kieran McGeeney and Jody Gormley must be scratching their heads this week and asking themselves how O'Dwyer does it.
Both Gormley and McGeeney are thoroughly well-versed in modern coaching techniques. They are intelligent, thorough and committed individuals. Yet, at the weekend their teams lost while Micko's won.
How does Master Mick keep outmanoeuvring the ambitious apprentices?
Naturally, a large part of his success stems from his experience, motivational skills, and excellent man-management. But while it would be churlish to overlook O'Dwyer's remarkable skills, it would also be foolish to ignore his dealings in the transfer market.
'But there is no transfer market in Gaelic football!,' I hear you purists cry. Fair enough. But try telling that to Mick O'Dwyer. Surely it's no coincidence that when Micko arrives in a county, it's not too long before a few players decide to leave their native valleys and pledge allegiance to the Kerry legend.
When Micko moved to Kildare, his son Karl moved with him. Karl proved to be a useful acquisition. He was the best player on the pitch when Kildare beat Kerry in the 1998 All-Ireland semi-final. Cork's Brian Murphy also boosted Kildare's attack. He scored the winning goal against Meath in the '98 Leinster final. Brian Lacey had established himself in the Tipperary team when he transferred to the Lilywhites.
Micko's magnetism was also working when he went to Laois. Billy Sheehan, a Kerry U21 footballer, came on board the Laois squad during O'Dwyer's tenure with the O'Moore county.
Since taking the reins at Wicklow, the trend has continued. Thomas Walsh, an excellent midfielder, who served Carlow for seven years, felt the urge to move to Wicklow after Micko became manager.
Naturally, there are many fans who would have misgivings about the manner in which the inter-country transfer market experiences a rise in activity when O'Dwyer lands in a new county.
There is an innate dislike of players moving away from the county in which they were reared.
The dream is to have 15 homeboys lining out for their county of birth. But such idealism is a luxury for counties that have been starved of success.
After four decades without a sniff of silverware, the Lilywhite supporters would have been able to live with the fact that Brian Lacey, Karl O'Dwyer, and Brian Murphy weren't born in Kildare. (Besides, the same county lost Shay Fahy and Larry Tompkins to Cork).
The simple question to consider is whether Mick O'Dwyer has had a positive influence on the promotion and development of Gaelic football in Kildare, Laois and Wicklow.
There can only be one answer. By delivering trophies to counties which were starved of glory, O'Dwyer did more than a dozen coaching officers could ever hope to achieve.
The sad fact of the matter is that the Gaelic Football Championships are fairly predictable affairs. The strong stay strong and the weak stay weak.
Outside Ulster it's a cosy carve-up for the traditional powers. We have Dublin and Meath in Leinster, Cork and Kerry in Munster, and Galway and Mayo in Connacht.
Breaking these duopolies is incredibly difficult. Of course Westmeath (2004) and Sligo last year have proved that it's possible to win provincial crowns without recruiting outside talent.
But then there are not as many commuters living in the aforementioned counties. The same cannot be said of Kildare, Wicklow, and Laois. All managers must try to maximise their strengths and minimise their weaknesses. While managing in Leinster, Mick O'Dwyer has used the transient population in these counties to his advantage.
It's extremely doubtful if Mick O'Dwyer's supreme management skills would have been sufficient on their own to deliver success to his adopted counties.
Indeed, an article published by The Sunday Tribune at the weekend illustrated that prior to Sunday's win over Kildare, O'Dwyer had been no more successful than his predecessor, Hugh Kenny. All that changed on Sunday when O'Dwyer's side beat Kildare.
Managers of weaker counties should study O'Dwyer's dealings. Kieran McGeeney doesn't have enough good scoring forwards. Neither did O'Dwyer when he went to Kildare and that explains why Karl O'Dwyer and Brian Murphy arrived on the scene.
Jody Gormley was starved of options when Lorcan Mulvey took control at midfield on Sunday. Joe Quinn and Benny Hasson were out injured.
Gormley watched Mulvey take four clean catches. In contrast, Thomas Walsh and James Stafford ruled the skies for Wicklow in Croke Park when they outjumped Dermot Earley and Killian Brennan.
Antrim and Kildare will yet again be licking their wounds this week. It's the same old story for Antrim, the Cinderellas of Ulster football.
Wicklow held a similar status in Leinster. Then Micko arrived. Last year's Tommy Murphy Cup triumph was their first victory in Croke Park. Sunday's victory was their first ever Championship win in the big house.
As Antrim reflect, Wicklow rejoice. Thomas Walsh may not have been born and bred in the county he now represents, but you can be guaranteed that Mick O'Dwyer will not hear a whimper of complaint in the Garden county.
If new managers want to emulate the legendary Micko then they should be prepared to copy his methods.
if thats the level of Journalism your used to in the north. then it helpes me understand many things written on this board.
it seems this guy thinks the secret of laois winning Leiinster was the recruitment of a failed Kerry u21 who wasnt even one of laois's better players and all wicklow had to do to start winning Championship games was steal a carlow player.
It has the same smell of chips on shoulder that this whole thread has. Dwyer get far too much praise i mean it not like he can compare to Joe ' won one' kernan. Or Mickey 'wheres canavan' harte
Quote
Like Harry Redknapp, Mick O'Dwyer also accepts that there are limitations to his undisputed brilliance as a manager.
Naturally, a large part of his success stems from his experience, motivational skills, and excellent man-management. But while it would be churlish to overlook O'Dwyer's remarkable skills, it would also be foolish to ignore his dealings in the transfer market.
'But there is no transfer market in Gaelic football!,' I hear you purists cry. Fair enough. But try telling that to Mick O'Dwyer. Surely it's no coincidence that when Micko arrives in a county, it's not too long before a few players decide to leave their native valleys and pledge allegiance to the Kerry legend.
Quote from: rosnarun on May 21, 2008, 10:36:00 AM
if thats the level of Journalism your used to in the north. then it helpes me understand many things written on this board.
it seems this guy thinks the secret of laois winning Leiinster was the recruitment of a failed Kerry u21 who wasnt even one of laois's better players and all wicklow had to do to start winning Championship games was steal a carlow player.
It has the same smell of chips on shoulder that this whole thread has. Dwyer get far too much praise i mean it not like he can compare to Joe ' won one' kernan. Or Mickey 'wheres canavan' harte
Can you not read? He has openly praised O'Dwyer's management skills but as AZ has alluded to, he has not ignored the 'cute hoorism' factor that Micko brings to teams (that most other journos don't mention) along with all the other good stuff that helps him make the difference. In fairness he is openly praising Micko here for all of that... in fairness I would be of the same opinion. Take whatever assistance you can get!
Just thought I would post the Paddy Heaney article for a bit of craic...
And fair play to ya, screen, for doing just that.
I've no reasons to have strong feelings about Mick O'Dwyer, one way or the other; I'm behind Mayo all the way and God knows we have enough problems sorting our arses out from our elbows in our own county to worry about what's going on anywhere else.
There has been one hell of an adverse reaction to Micko's latest exploit and I can't see the reason for this. He is without question the most successful manager the GAA has ever had and it's inevitable that he has stood on some toes along the line but I read nothing negative that was posted here yesterday that could be called solid or proven fact.
If he is adept at manipulating the media so what?
Every other manager in the land would love to be able to do the same. If any man can hoodwink the entire media so successfully for so long, Bertie would have employed him as a spin doctor and that's for sure!
Besides that, all the blarney in the world counts for nothing when the ball is thrown in. Micko's Wicklow put more scores on the board on Sunday than Kieran McGeeney's Kildare did. I watched the game carefully on Setanta last night and just saw a team that was fitter, faster and more focussed than the opposition.
Declan Darcy led Leitrim to their first Connacht title, even though he was born and living in Dublin.
I don't buy the line that he was eligible because his oul' fella was a Leitrim man either. Either the rules of the GAA allow a non-native to play for a county or they don't. If there was the slightest element of irregularity in the transfer of Billy Sheehan and Karl O'Dwyer to Laois, don't you think other counties would have objected before a ball was thrown in?
In my own county there is one particular crafty little hoor who seems to win an awful lot of close-in frees when he goes man to man with his marker but I never heard John O'Mahony or Mickey Moran being held to account for cynical play. Same goes for Mickey Harte and Tyrone. Tyrone players have often been accused of diving and drawing frees but I can't say Mickey Harte is ever considered personally responsible for this.
Why the difference in Micko's case? Janey; if the man even breaks wind on the sideline many will take it as clear evidence of his deviousness and unsporting behaviour.
I am stressing that I'm just a neutral observer here; Mayo only came across him as a manager once and in that game we beat his Laois side so I've no personal axe to grind, one way or the other.
Good article - well written and to the point !
QuoteDeclan Darcy led Leitrim to their first Connacht title, even though he was born and living in Dublin.
I don't buy the line that he was eligible because his oul' fella was a Leitrim man either. Either the rules of the GAA allow a non-native to play for a county or they don't.
Firstly, I believe it was Leitrim's second Connacht title. Secondly, he was completely eligible under rule. Children of people living in Dublin who were from certain counties (of which Leitrim was one) were/are allowed under rule to play for their parents county.
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 21, 2008, 12:05:25 PM
QuoteDeclan Darcy led Leitrim to their first Connacht title, even though he was born and living in Dublin.
I don't buy the line that he was eligible because his oul' fella was a Leitrim man either. Either the rules of the GAA allow a non-native to play for a county or they don't.
Firstly, I believe it was Leitrim's second Connacht title. Secondly, he was completely eligible under rule. Children of people living in Dublin who were from certain counties (of which Leitrim was one) were/are allowed under rule to play for their parents county.
Never heard of that one !
Are you sure about that ?
QuoteOh and make no mistake Larry Tompkins did not go to Cork because of work, he went there to play inter-county football.
As I recall, both Tompkins and Fahy were in the Army and requested transfers to Cork to facilitate this con-job.
QuoteChildren of people living in Dublin who were from certain counties (of which Leitrim was one) were/are allowed under rule to play for their parents county.
Darcy togged out for Aughawillan during his tenure in Laythrum, again as I recall.
QuoteNever heard of that one !
Are you sure about that ?
Positive. I checked the rule and if a player is born in Dublin they may play for thier parents home county. Use link below and check out Rule 33 (c).
http://www.gaa.ie/files/official_guides/official_guide1_internet.pdf
Quote from: orangeman on May 21, 2008, 12:12:08 PM
Quote from: magpie seanie on May 21, 2008, 12:05:25 PM
QuoteDeclan Darcy led Leitrim to their first Connacht title, even though he was born and living in Dublin.
I don't buy the line that he was eligible because his oul' fella was a Leitrim man either. Either the rules of the GAA allow a non-native to play for a county or they don't.
Firstly, I believe it was Leitrim's second Connacht title. Secondly, he was completely eligible under rule. Children of people living in Dublin who were from certain counties (of which Leitrim was one) were/are allowed under rule to play for their parents county.
Never heard of that one !
Are you sure about that ?
It's true alright - Cooke & Brennan from Saggart had Laois ties and togged out under O'Dwyer.
Corcoran from Saggart played for Longford...there's probably a few more I can't think of off the top of my head..
Quote from: Billys Boots on May 21, 2008, 12:17:28 PM
QuoteOh and make no mistake Larry Tompkins did not go to Cork because of work, he went there to play inter-county football.
As I recall, both Tompkins and Fahy were in the Army and requested transfers to Cork to facilitate this con-job.
QuoteChildren of people living in Dublin who were from certain counties (of which Leitrim was one) were/are allowed under rule to play for their parents county.
Darcy togged out for Aughawillan during his tenure in Laythrum, again as I recall.
Tompkins was working as a carpenter in New York - Fahy was in the Army alright..
Hiya lads
Just wanted to throw in my own tuppence worth here for two reasons - 1) I think the debate is a valid one and 2) the way it has been argued (apart from some meltdowns) reminds me of the best days of the auld board.
The one thing a journalist craves more than anything else is a readymade narrative - and Micko's life, more than anyone elses, provides not just one story, but various different threads. He can't be blamed for that.
As for roguery - I spent an hour or so in his company once and he was either a genuine rogue or else acting the part with huge glee. All i know was that, without a camera or microphone within a mile of him, he was twice as entertaining as any interview I've ever seen or read of him.
During his first stint with Kildare, he routinely sent them out with the intention of roughing up the Dubs - becaue he felt the Dubs had bullied them before. It was the same tactic he employed in the Sister Consillio match with Kerry in New York. That Kildare team unfortunately started a scrap with the wrong set of brothers i.e. the Barrs and ended up getting a hiding. But any manager who has employed the players that has has through the stints with Kerry and Kildare, clearly pushes the laws of the game right to the edge - physically.
As for the diving etc - the Laois team that everyone says he should have got more out of was based around two twin towers in the centre of the team with Clancy and Garvan, surrounded by immensely talented but smaller players - Conway, McDonald, Munnelly, Higgins, Kelly etc who beat an awful Dublin team but when confronted with real physicality in Armagh, had no answer. If Micko had the hard men to hand he would have used them - but i don't think there's too much disgrace in tryinq to win your frees if you're as small as some of those Laois lads were, and Francie bearing down on you.
I think as a man manager he is/was brilliant, but i don'tknow if those same qualities would translate in the bigger counties these days. Most of the guys playing for contending counties have had the best of physical and psychological training since they were minors or students - I doubt Micko's homespun philosophies would cut much ice with them. However, in counties where there is tradition of losing, Micko seems to be capable of loosening that mental block - whether that is simply because of his name or because of his actual methods is debatable.
Micko's treatment by the media isn't really his problem - I do think he has been given a free pass at times, but no more so than the Boylans/Morgans/O'Mahoneys/Kernans/Hartes etc. And who would want to have their real persona broadcast or written about? None of us are perfect, far from it, and one of the worst flaws that most of us share, is a willingness to believe the best of ourselves, despite the prevailing evidence.
If the media resorts to cliche with Micko, than it truly is their problem rather than his. And consider this -cliches only become cliches because, at the core, there lies a truth.
Besides, anyone who keeps going as fit as he does into his 70's deserves some kind of a pass - though whether that should be a bus pass or a free pass depends on personal opinion.
Quote from: easytiger on May 21, 2008, 03:38:22 PM
Hiya lads
Just wanted to throw in my own tuppence worth here for two reasons - 1) I think the debate is a valid one and 2) the way it has been argued (apart from some meltdowns) reminds me of the best days of the auld board.
The one thing a journalist craves more than anything else is a readymade narrative - and Micko's life, more than anyone elses, provides not just one story, but various different threads. He can't be blamed for that.
As for roguery - I spent an hour or so in his company once and he was either a genuine rogue or else acting the part with huge glee. All i know was that, without a camera or microphone within a mile of him, he was twice as entertaining as any interview I've ever seen or read of him.
During his first stint with Kildare, he routinely sent them out with the intention of roughing up the Dubs - becaue he felt the Dubs had bullied them before. It was the same tactic he employed in the Sister Consillio match with Kerry in New York. That Kildare team unfortunately started a scrap with the wrong set of brothers i.e. the Barrs and ended up getting a hiding. But any manager who has employed the players that has has through the stints with Kerry and Kildare, clearly pushes the laws of the game right to the edge - physically.
As for the diving etc - the Laois team that everyone says he should have got more out of was based around two twin towers in the centre of the team with Clancy and Garvan, surrounded by immensely talented but smaller players - Conway, McDonald, Munnelly, Higgins, Kelly etc who beat an awful Dublin team but when confronted with real physicality in Armagh, had no answer. If Micko had the hard men to hand he would have used them - but i don't think there's too much disgrace in tryinq to win your frees if you're as small as some of those Laois lads were, and Francie bearing down on you.
I think as a man manager he is/was brilliant, but i don'tknow if those same qualities would translate in the bigger counties these days. Most of the guys playing for contending counties have had the best of physical and psychological training since they were minors or students - I doubt Micko's homespun philosophies would cut much ice with them. However, in counties where there is tradition of losing, Micko seems to be capable of loosening that mental block - whether that is simply because of his name or because of his actual methods is debatable.
Micko's treatment by the media isn't really his problem - I do think he has been given a free pass at times, but no more so than the Boylans/Morgans/O'Mahoneys/Kernans/Hartes etc. And who would want to have their real persona broadcast or written about? None of us are perfect, far from it, and one of the worst flaws that most of us share, is a willingness to believe the best of ourselves, despite the prevailing evidence.
If the media resorts to cliche with Micko, than it truly is their problem rather than his. And consider this -cliches only become cliches because, at the core, there lies a truth.
Besides, anyone who keeps going as fit as he does into his 70's deserves some kind of a pass - though whether that should be a bus pass or a free pass depends on personal opinion.
Great post easytiger!
Excellent post 'tiger and great to hear from ya.
QuoteName other managers who have been fined for pitch encroachments ?
Name me any other managers that have been as guilty of consistant encroachments,
Who headed you as chief of the petty police anyway, it was merely stated as one of the
few things i don't like about the man, lord knows there are lots of opinions here on him.
Last i checked this
is a discussion board ::)
Good man easytiger. Great post, and you should drop in more often.
(It's all rubbish of course, but anyhow :D )
Good to hear from you easytiger.
Quote from: Lar Naparka on May 21, 2008, 10:59:31 AM
Just thought I would post the Paddy Heaney article for a bit of craic...
If any man can hoodwink the entire media so successfully for so long, Bertie would have employed him as a spin doctor and that's for sure!
CJH did go after him and ask him to run in the General election. Of course we all know Bertie is nothing like CHJ so my point is irrelevant ;) ;) ;D
Quote from: easytiger on May 21, 2008, 03:38:22 PM
Hiya lads
Just wanted to throw in my own tuppence worth here for two reasons - 1) I think the debate is a valid one and 2) the way it has been argued (apart from some meltdowns) reminds me of the best days of the auld board.
The one thing a journalist craves more than anything else is a readymade narrative - and Micko's life, more than anyone elses, provides not just one story, but various different threads. He can't be blamed for that.
As for roguery - I spent an hour or so in his company once and he was either a genuine rogue or else acting the part with huge glee. All i know was that, without a camera or microphone within a mile of him, he was twice as entertaining as any interview I've ever seen or read of him.
During his first stint with Kildare, he routinely sent them out with the intention of roughing up the Dubs - becaue he felt the Dubs had bullied them before. It was the same tactic he employed in the Sister Consillio match with Kerry in New York. That Kildare team unfortunately started a scrap with the wrong set of brothers i.e. the Barrs and ended up getting a hiding. But any manager who has employed the players that has has through the stints with Kerry and Kildare, clearly pushes the laws of the game right to the edge - physically.
As for the diving etc - the Laois team that everyone says he should have got more out of was based around two twin towers in the centre of the team with Clancy and Garvan, surrounded by immensely talented but smaller players - Conway, McDonald, Munnelly, Higgins, Kelly etc who beat an awful Dublin team but when confronted with real physicality in Armagh, had no answer. If Micko had the hard men to hand he would have used them - but i don't think there's too much disgrace in tryinq to win your frees if you're as small as some of those Laois lads were, and Francie bearing down on you.
I think as a man manager he is/was brilliant, but i don'tknow if those same qualities would translate in the bigger counties these days. Most of the guys playing for contending counties have had the best of physical and psychological training since they were minors or students - I doubt Micko's homespun philosophies would cut much ice with them. However, in counties where there is tradition of losing, Micko seems to be capable of loosening that mental block - whether that is simply because of his name or because of his actual methods is debatable.
Micko's treatment by the media isn't really his problem - I do think he has been given a free pass at times, but no more so than the Boylans/Morgans/O'Mahoneys/Kernans/Hartes etc. And who would want to have their real persona broadcast or written about? None of us are perfect, far from it, and one of the worst flaws that most of us share, is a willingness to believe the best of ourselves, despite the prevailing evidence.
If the media resorts to cliche with Micko, than it truly is their problem rather than his. And consider this -cliches only become cliches because, at the core, there lies a truth.
Besides, anyone who keeps going as fit as he does into his 70's deserves some kind of a pass - though whether that should be a bus pass or a free pass depends on personal opinion.
I'll second that ! Micko is one of the true greats of Gaelic football - his contribution on and off the field has been immense and shouldn't be understimated by anyone.
Man management is only one ingredient.
If Micko ran up all those championship miles + green shield stamps on just a man management ticket then he truly would be the nr 1 son of God.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 20, 2008, 10:15:41 AM
I pick on him because he pretends to be some sort of benevolent footballing evangelist. He is a cynical auld divil in my opinion. I do have great respect for his record as a manager, but I wish the media would be honest in how he achieves success.
What exactly is cynical about him ?
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 20, 2008, 02:41:24 PM
How many 'foreigners' has Micko used in his time in Kildare, Laois and now Wicklow? Is it above the national average? I know Lacey was from Tipp, and his son Karl was obviously from Kerry. At Laois, your man Sheehan is a kerry man, and obviously Tommy Walsh is Carlow, and Dan Doona is another Kerry exile, although that move has yet to happen.
Just to reiterate my stance. I have nothing but admiration for Micko and what he did for Kerry, Laois and Kildare. Wicklow's win on Sunday was promising also. His effect on football in all those counties is undeniable, although I think he joins a list of men who didn't get the very best out of Laois, even if he did do more than the rest.
My issues is with the 'cult' of Micko, rather than Micko the football man.
What cult ?.,Wicklows first win ever in Croke Park and your worried about some "cult" and conspiracy theories .God there is some moralising going on here .Well done to the Wicklow players and their loyal supporters
Quote from: easytiger on May 21, 2008, 03:38:22 PMAs for roguery - I spent an hour or so in his company once and he was either a genuine rogue or else acting the part with huge glee. All i know was that, without a camera or microphone within a mile of him, he was twice as entertaining as any interview I've ever seen or read of him.
Basically Micko buttered you up, conned you rightly, and sent you on your way to further contribute to the wily rogue media myth. ;D
He bought and sold you like he would and American tourist in Waterville.
The man's cunning is boundless!
my tuppence worth
I have grown up in the same area as Micko in South Kerry and have known him all my life, he has given a lifetime to football at the highest level and very few of us will ever understand the levels of commitment he has given, and maybe my blinkers are a little tinted but feck it.
Football is his life and will remain so, but his successes over the years have brought critism some warrranted , some not.
While he was in Kerry everyone said he had it easy with such a great bunch of players but those players were a diverse group and needed a good man at the helm too which they had in Micko. Micko being a lifelong non-drinker and non-smoker allowed the players to unwind during the winter and turned a blind eye to the winter watering, but by jaysus those players were made suffer once they hit the sand in Banna or laps around Killarney's Fitzgerald Stadium, in the days before scientific training the stories from those training sessions were of brutality but the players knew if they put it in Micko would not let them down and success would be theirs. Micko's obsession with fitness came after being beaten by Dublin in 1976 and 1977, Micko knew that he had the skilfull players but they needed the strength and speed to out do the Dubs.
2 little known elements of Kerry's success for that period 1978-1986 happened in South Kerry. First Eoin Liston was a gangly beach bum from Ballybunion with little interest in football only beach soccer, Micko probably helped in getting Liston into the Tech in Waterville and he took him under his wing and helped turned him into one of the great full forwards of all time. Another who came under Micko's radar was a young Jack O'Shea from Cahirciveen, a minor with great potential but who was starting to drift from the game until Micko got him to kick the booze and probably the greatest midfielder of this or any era was born. Two little bits of man management that would have a profound effect on Kerry GAA history, and there are also others too many to mention. But within the county there was always those who begrudged him, those in particular from the Towns of Killarney and Tralee did not like him too much but Micko was always his own man who always stood up for his players and got the best for them. In the days before the GPA Kerry players were well looked after within the county. Of course he liked to play winning football, who doesnt, and if that meant changing tacticts with the handpass and other things he helped perfect so be it, if you sit still in this life you will be walked over.
When his Kerry career finally came to an end it was his loyalty to his senior players that was probably his downfall, Kerry had stuck to 20 or so players for nearly 10 years and the lack of talent coming through was bemoaned by many including myself. The management eras of Ogie Moran and Mickey Ned O'Sullivan was left to try and build a new team while some of the senior players were still available for selection like Spillane, Nelligan and Jacko and Bomber. It was a hard ask for either of them and both failed miserably by Kerry standards. It took a batch of U21 players from 95/96 and Paidi O'Se to mould a new team, and in the shadow of his master he also fell victim of not letting go of the reigns soon enough, but sin sceal eile.
When Micko took on Kildare in the early 90's many a whisper was raised but Micko took on the role and brought limited success to Kildare. Of course many will say he is a mecernanry but even though he was getting some reward or expenses I think he has such a love of football and being involved on the big championship days that that is his first driving force, he is always a man who has risen to a challange. He deserved an All Ireland wiith his Kildare team in his second coming.
Likewise with Laois he brought success to a county starved of a leinster title for years, As many have said Micko's main traits are bringing the best out of players and motivating them to nearly walk through a wall for him. Of course when football was re-invented in 2002 it was deemed to being all about statistics, physchology, diet, scientific training and other things that many counties have since latched onto, including Kerry and even Micko to a certain extent, but his core principles are the same get good footballers who are very fit, can score and a belief that they are as good if not the better than the opposition than you have a great chance of winning games, but people copy what they perceive to be successfull tacticts, lots of counties have tried to copy The Donaghy full forward , and how many counties now have a full on warm up game in a condenced area before a game like Kerry have been doing fore the last 3-4 years. But hey we dont be crying about it. Football is all about winning and thats the way it should be, players have played for frees since the dawn of time, and i think it unfair to depict all Micko's teams as Divers , maybe someone can provide some stats on that.
There is a lot of talk of transfers, and as if its all Micko fault, the few players he brought in were hardly world beaters, and intercounty transfer have been going on for the history of the GAA, there are many culchies over the years who won All Irelands with Dublin but nothing said about them.
From a human side of things Micko commitment to football should not be questioned, how many times has he travelled the country giving out medals at functions without a penny in return, he has come through a hip replacement and a heart operation in recent months and while he should be at home in retirement he is still out their winning. I hope it continues.
He has lit the flame of hope in Counties like Kildare, Laois and now Wicklow and while it seems to have gond backwards in Kildare, there is still the guts of a good team in Laois, while hopefully Wicklow is only on the start of its journey, but it will be up to others within those counties to push on and develop what Micko has given them. Of course it will have cost them some money in expenses but who would deny its money well spent. Can you put a price on seeing youngsters wearing the county jersey with pride instead of some fecking english soccer jersey. Hope fully if there are structures in place Wicklow and their ilk will see the return on its investment in years to come.
As ET says a nicer fellow you wont meet and dont always believe what you read in the media, fair play Micko, rock on, and keep doing your own thing..
Thats not tuppence Mike thats about 50 shillings worth ye have contributed so far ;)
Two guineas worth anyway!
Excellent post Kerry Mike - a lot of Micko's work goes unnoticed and unrewarded - fair play to him and long may he reign !
Far too much reign in this post, roll on the summer. :P
I have great respect for the man in that at his age he is still up and running and his enthusiasm is unbounded. People I have spoken to about him and some people on here seem to think that he would not succeed with a "ready made" team and that his main forte nowadays is to take teams from the doldrums up to a level. I don't know, I think if he had the proper people around him he would have any team he managed at the peak of their powers.
I met him once and he paid me a serious compliment so I am a bit jaundiced n my view of him, but he had no reason to say to me what he did and therefore I can only take it at face value. As for being a rogue, he knows where the boundaries are and like any great player/manager takes it to that very limit and sometimes over it but gets away with it due to the respect people have for him and his charismatic charm.
Lads, I think we're nearly all in agreement on everything, we just see the same stuff in a different light. We all seem to agree that at the very least Micko gets 'soft soap' in the media, but it's either a) a bad thing or b) perfectly understandable.
I think we all agree on his enthusiasm, his record, his qualities and his impact on the game.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 22, 2008, 09:54:58 AM
Lads, I think we're nearly all in agreement on everything, we just see the same stuff in a different light. We all seem to agree that at the very least Micko gets 'soft soap' in the media, but it's either a) a bad thing or b) perfectly understandable.
I think we all agree on his enthusiasm, his record, his qualities and his impact on the game.
Do we agree that he is a professional manager who sees the transfer system as a means of improving his teams? Are we all happy that the Thomas Walsh transfer was within the rules of the GAA?
I don't know that you can prove Micko actually tapped him up, rather than Wicklow doing it, or Tommy Walsh himself initiating it. It seems that he does have an above average amount of transferees on his teams, but I asked the question earlier about how many gravitated as a chance to work with him?
I have an opinion on him regarding his tactics/cynicism and his media profile, but I can't prove anything about what money he may or may not get himself from these counties, nor what he does, if anything, to encourage lads to come play for him.
AZ, it sounds like you are actually defending Micko there. :)
For sure, all innuendoes should be shoved into the dustbin.
It would be a double irony if Wicklow could beat Laois. I think they have a fighting chance.
I'm not defending him. I've a bit of a sick head this morning, but not that sick. All I'll say is that I don't know of any proof of any of that stuff, so I'm not going to slate him on those grounds. In fact, I don't think I'm slating him, as a manager or a man, at all. I'm just saying he does what every other manager in the country tries to do, and he does it successfully.
Obviously we've all heard anecdotal evidence about the other stuff, but you can't attack a man based on anecdotal evidence. The things I'm mentioning, I have seen with my own eyes, so I'm comfortable with my opinion on them, even if others disagree. That's the beauty of discussion I suppose :D
By the way, is the board on the way back? This is about the 5th or 6th issue, with stongly held differing views, which has been debated well, without much, if any, abuse or childish ranting.
With GalteeMountainBoy, BottleThrower, HomeofHurling and a few others starting to post on the hurling board as well, maybe the tide is turning back to what we used to love about this board.
Hope so.
transfers of player s is something that the gaa have been turning a blind eye to for years. thomas walsh was one of many.
Quote from: Main Street on May 22, 2008, 10:26:33 AM
AZ, it sounds like you are actually defending Micko there. :)
For sure, all innuendoes should be shoved into the dustbin.
It would be a double irony if Wicklow could beat Laois. I think they have a fighting chance.
[/b]
I think they'll be stuffed !
Teams with a fighting chance are usually stuffed, thats why we say they have a fighting chance.
If they put up a fight they have a chance of success in certain circumstances.
It’s been a good discussion alright and the subject has been well and truly aired. After what I’ve read so far I have the impression that it’s a case of being more sinned against than sinning.
Honestly, I knew little or nothing about the man when I hit upon this thread.
I knew his managerial record alright and the fact that he could be a nuisance on the sideline at times but other than that I’d be stuck if I had to compose a CV for him.
I’m keeping in mind that I have heard plenty of derogatory stories about the man that could be deemed libellous – or slanderous if they appeared in print.
The criticism I have read here stops well short of that but really no hard evidence has been offered to explain the widespread reservations about his manner or methods of work.
I mean if I read a statement along the lines of, say, “He’s a wily old rogue and his cunning is boundless,” I can take it as an honest opinion but not as a statement of fact.
I’d really need some concrete evidence to back up this opinion before I could accept it as being true and accurate.
I can go as far as taking it to be probably true but I wouldn’t pass it on as being definitely so.
In fairness to his detractors, I can relate to some of the criticisms posted here. His frequent pitch incursions and the fact that Kildare and Laois teams under his managership earned reputations for diving and drawing frees from opposing defenders was widely reported in the media at the time.
I never had enough reason to go to any match where Micko managed either side but I have read enough and seen enough TV reports to make up my own mind that he could be a bloody nuisance on the sideline and also be guilty of unsporting tactics on the field.
In short, I’ve come to that conclusion from reading media reports and watching TV analysis. In all fairness, I can’t accept an assertion that he has had an easy ride from the media throughout his managerial career.
For me, his supporters have presented a strong and obvious case; his detractors, without doubting their sincerity, still need to back up generalisations with hard evidence.
Janey, I dunno Lar. I respect you thinking that way, but I only see opinions, on both sides, I don't see any 'facts' as such. And I suppose that's what the game is all about. I think it's all a matter of perception as well. I think Laois and Kildare dived to win frees, and that's being argued as winning frees due to their style of play and/or size. Fair enough, that's opinion, and I'll stand by mine, while taking the others' into account.
The main difference between the sides is that my perception is that he gets an easy ride, because of who he is and what he's done, and I don't like it. Others say he does, but it doesn't matter, and others again say he doesn't. Again, fair enough.
I just did a quick google, to see if I am going mad, and I immediately came across this article. I see it as being slightly sycophantic, or worse, but maybe that's just my cynical viewpoint regarding the media's treatment of him. RTE Television also, in my mind, fawn over him. The thing is that in my opinion, he doesn't need fawning or plamásing. His record speaks for itself.
Anyhow, I don't think we're going to change minds here at this stage, and as I said, it just seems to be the old 'one man's patriot' argument.
http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/mick-odwyer-glory-games-leading-man-1203496.html (http://www.independent.ie/sport/gaelic-football/mick-odwyer-glory-games-leading-man-1203496.html)
Next month he will be off to New York with Wicklow, who will play at the official opening of new floodlights in Gaelic Park with the same boyish enthusiasm as for his first trip abroad 50 years ago. Some man
I AGREE !
This one as well.. although I don't even know who/what the Munster Express is. But look at the piece in bold. I nearly gagged :D
QuoteMicko leads Wicklow out of the wilderness
Wednesday, May 21st, 2008
by Jamie O'Keeffe
* < prev
* 1 of 1
* next >
*
Though he'd hate the term, Mick O'Dwyer is the ultimate 'Celebrity Bainisteoir'.
However, the legendary Kerryman, who just refuses to go quietly, knows that real life is much more interesting and rewarding than fiction.
It's 22 years since this former playing great led a team to an All-Ireland, his eighth as a manager: namely, that second three-in-a-row Kingdom side.
However, as Eugene McGee - whose Offaly denied O'Dywer seven Sams on the spin - observed this week, he's "never lost it" in the meantime. Indeed in McGee's view he's the only coach in the country who could have masterminded a first ever senior championship victory by the Wicklow footballers in Croke Park, and live on the telly to boot.
Ever since quitting his native county, the Waterville wanderer has taken on increasingly tough challenges: initially in Kildare where he'd two spells (guiding them to an All-Ireland final), then Laois, where on reflection he worked wonders, and now Wicklow - all with relative but definite success.
Still, having forgotten the fleeting touch of romance he brought to last year's championship - his debut season with The Garden County gleaning the much-maligned Tommy Murphy Cup - before last Sunday's shock win over Kieran McGeeny's Lilywhites, most pundits were signalling the near-72-year-old's number was finally up.
But not for the first time, and most probably not the last, he confounded expectations - albeit everyone's but his own - with a Leinster quarter-final against Laois, naturally, his next assignment. (It must be said, mind, that after last weekend's heroics it's an indictment of the GAA's treatment of us Division 4 counties that it will take a further victory to ensure the qualifiers draw includes Wicklow. They are an inspiration to their fellow minnows and further evidence that there's very little between most footballing counties right now, with the obvious illustrious exception; the present Kerry team being good enough in O'Dwyer's view to win that elusive five All-Irelands in succession.)
Yes, without that bit of Micko magic, and his enduring sense of straight-up sportsmanship - fair play to him and his teams for always playing fair - Gaelic football, facing a perennial struggle to capture the public's imagination, would be much the poorer.
O'Dwyer is a hotelier and undertaker by profession, though he's made the most of his amateur pursuits too; an ability that at times has been portrayed as more 'mercenary' than Messianic. While he intends to go on "as long there is life in my body", unfortunately he won't last forever. And then all we'll be left with is the upstanding 'Pillar' and the likes.
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 22, 2008, 03:04:08 PM
This one as well.. although I don't even know who/what the Munster Express is. But look at the piece in bold. I nearly gagged :D
QuoteMicko leads Wicklow out of the wilderness
Wednesday, May 21st, 2008
by Jamie O'Keeffe
* < prev
* 1 of 1
* next >
*
Though he'd hate the term, Mick O'Dwyer is the ultimate 'Celebrity Bainisteoir'.
However, the legendary Kerryman, who just refuses to go quietly, knows that real life is much more interesting and rewarding than fiction.
It's 22 years since this former playing great led a team to an All-Ireland, his eighth as a manager: namely, that second three-in-a-row Kingdom side.
However, as Eugene McGee - whose Offaly denied O'Dywer seven Sams on the spin - observed this week, he's "never lost it" in the meantime. Indeed in McGee's view he's the only coach in the country who could have masterminded a first ever senior championship victory by the Wicklow footballers in Croke Park, and live on the telly to boot.
Ever since quitting his native county, the Waterville wanderer has taken on increasingly tough challenges: initially in Kildare where he'd two spells (guiding them to an All-Ireland final), then Laois, where on reflection he worked wonders, and now Wicklow - all with relative but definite success.
Still, having forgotten the fleeting touch of romance he brought to last year's championship - his debut season with The Garden County gleaning the much-maligned Tommy Murphy Cup - before last Sunday's shock win over Kieran McGeeny's Lilywhites, most pundits were signalling the near-72-year-old's number was finally up.
But not for the first time, and most probably not the last, he confounded expectations - albeit everyone's but his own - with a Leinster quarter-final against Laois, naturally, his next assignment. (It must be said, mind, that after last weekend's heroics it's an indictment of the GAA's treatment of us Division 4 counties that it will take a further victory to ensure the qualifiers draw includes Wicklow. They are an inspiration to their fellow minnows and further evidence that there's very little between most footballing counties right now, with the obvious illustrious exception; the present Kerry team being good enough in O'Dwyer's view to win that elusive five All-Irelands in succession.)
Yes, without that bit of Micko magic, and his enduring sense of straight-up sportsmanship - fair play to him and his teams for always playing fair - Gaelic football, facing a perennial struggle to capture the public's imagination, would be much the poorer.
O'Dwyer is a hotelier and undertaker by profession, though he's made the most of his amateur pursuits too; an ability that at times has been portrayed as more 'mercenary' than Messianic. While he intends to go on "as long there is life in my body", unfortunately he won't last forever. And then all we'll be left with is the upstanding 'Pillar' and the likes.
Ok ok - AZ you can stop the research and going back over the decades !!!!! ;) ;) We get your point.
QuoteDo we agree that he is a professional manager who sees the transfer system as a means of improving his teams? Are we all happy that the Thomas Walsh transfer was within the rules of the GAA?
He is as professional as Ross Carr. I've heard the rumours about what managers are on in the North and I'm sure Ross Carr isn't doing it for the good of his health
...and, of course, we wont mention the individuals that benefited when Marty Clarke went to AFL....lots of dosh changed hands in that deal from what I heard.
QuoteHe is as professional as Ross Carr. I've heard the rumours about what managers are on in the North and I'm sure Ross Carr isn't doing it for the good of his health
Really? What's Harte on? Crozier? Gormley? McIvor? PM me if you don't want it public. Amazing the sleuths in Kerry.
Micko! there seems to be no middle ground!
His record is there on paper - you can pick holes at the stints with Kildare and Leix. Were Galway underestimated in 98 - perhaps. Should Leix have won more than the one Leinster - maybe.
He obviously has vast skills and experience. Perhaps he has enough to get a success starved county to punch above their weight for a bit. If Wicklow beat Leix - it would be a shock - but you wouldn't be too surprised either!!
One thing for the fellow Offaly lads, and I imagine I could be strung up here for heresy. Supposing our football Summer yet again is unsatisfactory, and the scenario arose that Mr Micko engages in discussions with the county board and there was "proposals" for the Kerry legend to take over the Offaly footballers, you'd have to let him take it on! (even just for the crack and to get everyone playing). You'd have to!!
(Hi to the lads in this discussion. Keep up the top stuff for 08)
Heretic! Heretic! Heretic!
Quote from: AZOffaly on May 22, 2008, 10:06:17 PM
Heretic! Heretic! Heretic!
But AZ he's right - you would HAVE to !
Do you see who the latest member is ? ODWYER ????????? ;) ;) ;D ;D ;D ;D Could it be himself ???????
QuoteReally? What's Harte on? Crozier? Gormley? McIvor? PM me if you don't want it public. Amazing the sleuths in Kerry
I heard that Joe Kernan was on ~40k .
I heard that Mickey Harte was about that after the 2003 win. I heard that even the less sucessful counties like Monaghan, Fermanagh pay in the region of $30k.
Whether that information is true or not is hard to say. But sure, who cares, the important thing is to get it out there right.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 22, 2008, 10:57:47 PM
QuoteReally? What's Harte on? Crozier? Gormley? McIvor? PM me if you don't want it public. Amazing the sleuths in Kerry
I heard that Joe Kernan was on ~40k .
I heard that Mickey Harte was about that after the 2003 win. I heard that even the less sucessful counties like Monaghan, Fermanagh pay in the region of $30k.
Whether that information is true or not is hard to say. But sure, who cares, the important thing is to get it out there right.
Mike - All nonsense !
I'm sure your right Orangeman but thats what I heard. Are you telling me you've never heard of similar amounts of money changing hands ?
Even the big clubs in Dublin are, apparently, paying this much.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 22, 2008, 11:18:15 PM
I'm sure your right Orangeman but thats what I heard. Are you telling me you've never heard of similar amounts of money changing hands ?
Even the big clubs in Dublin are, apparently, paying this much.
Maybe but not up here
I was once on a side of bacon and 6 lamb chops, every Sunday.
The team minder was a butcher.
Pity he wasn't a pimp as I was a randy vegetarian.
The man is a legend, and 'tis a right well earned moniker on his behalf, of that I've absolutely no doubt whatsoever. You ask any Wicklovian these days about the second coming, and he's already arrived, having successfully united both wings of the county, and within that, both ends of each wing within the county! No mean feat, and only something that a true legend could properly achieve. They now have Blessington lads passing the ball to Baltinglass lads, and not only that but the Baltinglass lads are passing the ball to the Rathnew lads (who used never to line out at all), and the Rathnew lads are even passing the ball to the Bray lads (who they used to decry as 'Dubs'!), and all vice versa and in reverse. 'Tis a veritable miracle, and the man is a (lmost a) saint!
Oh, so now its a joke all of a sudden.
Its time to piss or get off the pot. I think it suits a lot of people to have a bogeyman like micko around to deflect attention away from what might be going on in their own backyard. Are people ever going to be consistent and fair on this subject ...I doubt it somehow.
honestly, its like watching Bill O'Reilly on the Fox network on here sometimes. He picks someone, does a hatchet job on them and then turns to the camera and talks about the "fair and balanced, no-spin zone"
Quote from: orangeman on May 22, 2008, 11:19:57 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 22, 2008, 11:18:15 PM
I'm sure your right Orangeman but thats what I heard. Are you telling me you've never heard of similar amounts of money changing hands ?
Even the big clubs in Dublin are, apparently, paying this much.
Maybe but not up here
Club management is where the money is at up here OM.
Any ideas for a poll to add to this thread? Gnevin you seem to be good at that.
QuoteI heard that even the less sucessful counties like Monaghan, Fermanagh pay in the region of $30k.
Jaysus, if that's right we're looking awful stupid here in Longford (as if we didn't already).
Quote from: tyssam5 on May 23, 2008, 07:47:44 AM
Quote from: orangeman on May 22, 2008, 11:19:57 PM
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 22, 2008, 11:18:15 PM
I'm sure your right Orangeman but thats what I heard. Are you telling me you've never heard of similar amounts of money changing hands ?
Even the big clubs in Dublin are, apparently, paying this much.
Maybe but not up here
Club management is where the money is at up here OM.
Clonoe are reputedly paying big money - I don't know about Dromore - but outside of that there mighn't be that much on offer - A lot of clubs are now going back to their own and investing the money in their facilities etc.
QuoteJebus this would be hilarious if it wasn't so insulting to those mentioned. Kernan, Harte and McEneaney have been involved with football in their own counties for their whole lives, these guys are doing it for the love of their county not for financial gain. Its common knowledge up here that Joe Kernan has been offed several club and county jobs around the country recently, including the Dublin job before Pillar apparently, and has consistantly turned them down on the back of his commitment to never manage any other team other than his own club or county. These are hardly the actions of a man in the GAA to make money.
I suspect that you are correct and these men are doing it purely for the love of the game. As for it being insulting......rumours persist so we either air all the rumours or none.There cant be double standards.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 23, 2008, 07:21:20 PM
QuoteJebus this would be hilarious if it wasn't so insulting to those mentioned. Kernan, Harte and McEneaney have been involved with football in their own counties for their whole lives, these guys are doing it for the love of their county not for financial gain. Its common knowledge up here that Joe Kernan has been offed several club and county jobs around the country recently, including the Dublin job before Pillar apparently, and has consistantly turned them down on the back of his commitment to never manage any other team other than his own club or county. These are hardly the actions of a man in the GAA to make money.
I suspect that you are correct and these men are doing it purely for the love of the game. As for it being insulting......rumours persist so we either air all the rumours or none.There cant be double standards.
It's ridiculous to compare a manager who is onto his 3rd county outside his own, with managers who are managing their own county. But you probably can't see that.
QuoteIt's ridiculous to compare a manager who is onto his 3rd county outside his own,
Mick O'Dwyer is 72 and has been a manager for 30 plus years. I'm sure he'd still be with Kerry, or Kildare, or Laois if they would still have him but thats the nature of the game. You have your time and you move on. Maybe Micko's addiction to the game drives him to seek new challenges wherever they'll have him. But, then again, your deeply cynical Tyrone nature probably prevents you from seeing that.
btw, since we are on the subject of questioning motives, you Tyrone bies were very quick to get the pay-for-play thread closed once I started asking questions about where the money from club tyrone goes. Are ye hiding something ? If its ok to speculate that Micko is in it for the money then is it not valid to speculate that club Tyrone make it "attractive" for Mickey Harte to remain a one county man.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 25, 2008, 06:17:19 AM
QuoteIt's ridiculous to compare a manager who is onto his 3rd county outside his own,
Mick O'Dwyer is 72 and has been a manager for 30 plus years. I'm sure he'd still be with Kerry, or Kildare, or Laois if they would still have him but thats the nature of the game. You have your time and you move on. Maybe Micko's addiction to the game drives him to seek new challenges wherever they'll have him. But, then again, your deeply cynical Tyrone nature probably prevents you from seeing that.
btw, since we are on the subject of questioning motives, you Tyrone bies were very quick to get the pay-for-play thread closed once I started asking questions about where the money from club tyrone goes. Are ye hiding something ? If its ok to speculate that Micko is in it for the money then is it not valid to speculate that club Tyrone make it "attractive" for Mickey Harte to remain a one county man.
Why don't you just send an email to Club Tyrone and ask them where the money goes. I'm sure they'll gladly tell you.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 25, 2008, 06:17:19 AM
QuoteIt's ridiculous to compare a manager who is onto his 3rd county outside his own,
Mick O'Dwyer is 72 and has been a manager for 30 plus years. I'm sure he'd still be with Kerry, or Kildare, or Laois if they would still have him but thats the nature of the game. You have your time and you move on. Maybe Micko's addiction to the game drives him to seek new challenges wherever they'll have him. But, then again, your deeply cynical Tyrone nature probably prevents you from seeing that.
btw, since we are on the subject of questioning motives, you Tyrone bies were very quick to get the pay-for-play thread closed once I started asking questions about where the money from club tyrone goes. Are ye hiding something ? If its ok to speculate that Micko is in it for the money then is it not valid to speculate that club Tyrone make it "attractive" for Mickey Harte to remain a one county man.
As I said before, that's a load of balls - MH has been involved in Tyrone football all his life with no financial gain - he has a job like the rest of us.
Mikey - you're barking up the wrong tree on Mickey Harte I think.
Seanie, unless somebody can prove to me that Mickey Harte doesn't get payments then he is suspect. The modus operandi when it come to Mick O'Dwyer seems to be guilty until proven innocent so it shouldnt be any different with MH. There is enough money floating around up there to justify questions. MH is not some sacred cow that cant be questioned.
Also, the Armagh folk on here are very quiet about Kieran McGeeney.......I'd say that man is loaded at this stage. What does he work at again ?
I understand where you are coming from but I'm just giving my opinion that I believe he's not taking monies he shouldn't be getting. I think it would be against his personal ethos. Maybe I'm wrong but thats what I feel about Harte. Others I'd suspect aren't as scrupulous.
QuoteOh for f**ks sake! If you've got a suspicion you back it up. Or maybe you've no time to go looking for proof and tell some one else to prove a negative while you're out around nightclubs slipping roofies into drinks to knock women out to take home and have intercourse with. *
and what f**king facts has anyone to back up their suspicions of Mick O'Dwyer ?
..and I dont see what your perverted fantasies have to do with anything so keep them to yourself.
Quote from: Mike Sheehy on May 25, 2008, 08:19:43 PM
Seanie, unless somebody can prove to me that Mickey Harte doesn't get payments then he is suspect. The modus operandi when it come to Mick O'Dwyer seems to be guilty until proven innocent so it shouldnt be any different with MH. There is enough money floating around up there to justify questions. MH is not some sacred cow that cant be questioned.
Also, the Armagh folk on here are very quiet about Kieran McGeeney.......I'd say that man is loaded at this stage. What does he work at again ?
Mike - take it from me - MH has been running round after Tyrone teams for the most of his life - in managing Tyrone he gets no financial reward - that is fact - he has a day to day job like everyone else. Club Tyrone or no one else pays him.
I have in the earlier part of this thread indicated that Micko has a tax clearance certificate. Yes he was hounded unjustly. But that doesn't mean that you should question others. If you have evidence other than hearsay, please feel to bring this forward.
Lets close out this nonsense ,No proof no posting shite