The Diva

[Lone Shark]

Speaking personally, Micko was a great player and manager in his day, but his day is gone and he uses cheap tricks now to get by. He did well at Kildare, but he went to Laois at a time when they had huge potential with some of the best talents in the country about to mature into intercounty. He turned that potential into one Leinster title and not a single AI semi Final appearance. Some may call that a great achievement, I wouldn't. I would call it a little below par - at a time when Leinster football teams were generally uncompetitive in a national context and when arguably the province was the easiest won of all time.

Speaking from a Laois point of view i wouldn't be so quick to blame Micko for Laois's lack of success,There was a lot of over inflated egos on them Laois teams and i think they felt because they had won Leinsters/All Ireland's at minor that a senior All Ireland was just going to happen without much effort..
Sure you can hardly blame Dwyer for a last minute loss to Dublin in '05 or Mayo scoring two late points in the 1/4 Final of '06..
Maybe Dwyer should have taken them further but he was working with a lot of players who thought they knew more than him and believed too much of their own hype..
And some of the backroom staff weren't much better...

(1) The game is seventy minutes long. If you're to give O'Dwyer any credit for 03 when it took a late (illegitimate!!) goal to save ye against us in the first quarter final in Portlaoise then he must take the blame for conceding late in other games - it cuts both ways.
(2) If Mick O'Dwyer, a man who managed countless players with more all Irelands than limbs, cannot impress on Laois players how insignificant minor and provincial medals are in the greater scheme of things, then I think it is fair to say that his management is not up to the standard of when he was in charge of Kerry where, as AZ said, his biggest achievement was getting lads to keep coming back year after year despite ever burgeoning CVs.
(3) His backroom staff were his choice.

This is exactly the point of this thread. Micko was a great player, the game's greatest ever manager, but since 2000 he's done feck all and yet the legend lives on in the eyes of the fawning media, while there's nowhere in the room to turn but for huge elephants that we're not allowed to talk about.

[Main Street]

This is exactly the point of this thread. Micko was a great player, the game's greatest ever manager, but since 2000 he's done feck all and yet the legend lives on in the eyes of the fawning media, while there's nowhere in the room to turn but for huge elephants that we're not allowed to talk about.

Greatest ever managers and great players usually are legends. To have 2 in one is rare.
There is no end date on the legend of the greatest ever manager.

"Since 2000 he has done feck all"
This type of drivel does no credit to some semblance of some rational debate hidden away in a few posts on this thread.

[INDIANA]

micko's greatest skill is getting inside players heads and man-mangement. inother words giving players the belief they can win. his ability to do this in counties bereft of success has been quite incredible whether you like him or dislike him. i don't believe anyone else can do it as well at the moment and that's a great credit to him.
it's this constant courting of players from other counties that i don't like about him. and i make no apologies for it. part of coaching is getting the best out of what you have. not looking around to see who can be brought in.

[orangeman]

The man is a true great in GAA circles - a legend in our time going over several genarations.

Long live the legend !!!

[Lone Shark]

This is exactly the point of this thread. Micko was a great player, the game's greatest ever manager, but since 2000 he's done feck all and yet the legend lives on in the eyes of the fawning media, while there's nowhere in the room to turn but for huge elephants that we're not allowed to talk about.

Greatest ever managers and great players usually are legends. To have 2 in one is rare.
There is no end date on the legend of the greatest ever manager.

"Since 2000 he has done feck all"
This type of drivel does no credit to some semblance of some rational debate hidden away in a few posts on this thread.

Pele was widely recognised as one of the greatest ever soccer players. That doesn't mean that if you put him in the Brazil team tomorrow that he would do well. He wouldn't. However if he had Mick O'Dwyer's media management skills he'd be lauded for his performance and Real Madrid would be lining up a bid to put him in alongside Van Nistelrooy.

Obviously Micko remains a legend of gaelic football irrespective of whatever he does, because of what he did in charge of Kerry. The point of this thread is that he seems to be getting a free ride now because of that. He is way past his best achievement wise and just because he remains a legend doesn't mean that he should be above reproach for what he does now.

And he has achieved feck all since 2000. Under no circumstances would I (or indeed many others) consider his time in Laois anything other than par (at best) and possibly even downright poor given the talent he had to work with. 

[The Boy Wonder]

Of course Micko will always be a media favourite when he practically writes the stories for them. He will never shy away from a reporter and is cute enough to hugely influence the story as he would want it to appear. In the main the benficiaries are: (1) the County he is managing (2) the GAA in general and (3) Micko himself. He puts the GAA in the shade in terms of providing PR for Gaelic Football.

In my opinion it's very unfair and a very cheap shot to accuse him of cynical tactics. There is no doubt that diving occurs in Gaelic Football as it does in soccer. However to brand Micko's teams (or Tyrone for that matter as they have been accused in the past) as divers is very offensive. It's very easy to give a dog a bad name but a sweeping accusation without providing any evidence is out of order. I've no doubt that there were diving incidents involving Micko's teams but it can happen with any County team. I would also point out that in Gaelic Football (and soccer) it is can be hard for players to stay on their feet after minimal contact with an opponent due to the speed of the games - this does not make them divers.

Micko has been a great ambassador for the GAA. No doubt he has his personal agenda and his failings but overall his contribution to Gaelic Football has been hugely positive.

[moysider]

Micko is in his seventies. Credit to him that he still keeps going. My old man was in his grave by then without having done much if anything wrong.  I m sure Micko is aware of his advanced years but he feels he has something to offer still. Great to see that desire for the game still at his age. He is still vital and if he pulls an odd stroke to his teams advantage so what? Who does nt? Micko is nt in this for dosh - Im sure he does nt need it. I m sure he believes his methods are best and to hell with Johnny Come Lately Managers and stuff. Its good he s still around. Again, wish we had him for a while.

[Mike Sheehy]

Mike, I know this is something you feel strongly about but I think your rant is a bit ott and certainly misplaced with the likes of AZ, Hardy and dare I say it myself. Most people have huge admiration for Micko and what he has achieved as a player and a manager, me included. I grew up watching that great Kerry team that he managed and would have the highest admiration for Kerry football. That won't ever change.

I think it is legitimate though to raise the couple of issues that AZ has and wonder why the media don't question it more without being called hypocrites or begrudgung c***s.

Of course I feel strongly about it. Like I said, the constant innuendo about Micko has had a very real impact on his life...and yes, you are right, Hardy and AZ are not begrudging c**ts which is why it is so disappointing to read their comments. I know Micko is no saint and they have a right to raise questions but every scenario involving micko always seems to involve Micko as the sleeveen. Do people not think that Brian Lacey, Thomas Walsh, the Kildare supporters club and all the other parties involved in these "controversies" had a part to play  ? As Johnny Rotten said, no one is innocent.

And, again, where is this idea that the media give micko a free ride ? On this very thread alone there was mention of Paddy Heaney having a dig at him... I did a quick search on some articles leading up to the game....this lad has a go, nothing major, but certainly no deification

http://www.irishexaminer.com/text/story.asp?j=mhqlkfojojcwojau&p=37y5584x&n=37155939

here's an article giving background on Walshes defection from Carlow. So, Larry Tompkins gets a pass becasue he had a falling out with Kildare yet Micko is a bollix for dragging Walsh away from the perfect relationship he had with Carlow ?

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/vincent-hogan/rebel-with-a-cause-1378711.html

There are two (or more) sides to every story that micko is involved with but some of you lads always go with the one that has Micko as the sleeveen.

[Mike Sheehy]

AZ,

Hi Mike,

Like Hardy, I'm not going to allow that comment about "begrudging cnuts" pass without refuting it. A lot of lads on here know my respect and admiration for Kerry football, and I was raised admiring and falling in love with football through the great Kerry teams of the 70s and 80s. My in-laws are all Kerry, and I spend a lot of my time down there, and following them around when Offaly get knocked out. (Usually early June!! ). So my perspective is not the same as some of your usual sparring partners on this board, far from it.

Fair enough, but there are plenty in Kerry who have a go as well. In fact, I'm sure Dromid has its share of anti-micko sentiment as you well know. Local disputes are like any disputes i.e  there are two sides to them.

Now, as for the point at hand. I will try and succintly lay out the main areas of my opinion re. Micko, and especially his relationship with the media. I have made the same points many times over the years, and am not suddenly 'begrudging' the man his success because of last Sunday. In fact I am not begrudging the man at all. Feel free to pick holes in my opinions if you feel like it, but don't try and start an insult war, because I don't do them.

1) Mick O'Dwyer was a great player, and is a great coach. Has been an absolutely fantastic man manager since he took over Kerry, and is probably a better technician than many people think. I've heard people in Kerry say that 'anyone could have managed the golden team' and I disagree strongly with it. He had to handle a huge array of personalities, and keep them coming back to the well again, and again, hungrier every time. The bounce back after 82 and 83 was Lazarus-like.

2) Mick O'Dwyer, in my opinion, is as ready to employ cynicism as a tactic as any other manager. There are various examples of it, but the one I always point to is the inordinate amount of 'handy' frees won by Laois and Kildare especially once he took over. My opinion is that he didn't trust his lads to kick points from play, so he instructed them to go down in order to win frees, of which a high percentage would be scored. I'm not suggesting he instructed them to feign injury or get lads sent off, but as far as I'm concerned, Laois and Kildare, in his stints there, used this tactic. I am not alone in this opinion, and certainly if you talk to any of the lads who played against those teams in those years, you will hear this from several. I know I have.

If he is "as ready" as other managers then lets name and shame ....lets not always pick on the same guy. Seems fair dont you think ?
Martin Lynch , I believe, had a reputation for falling over but , apart from him, I would not consider that Kildare team as divers. I think their Leinster neighbours envy at their sudden success had a lot to do with their reputation. As for Laois, they were a light team that did not compete as well physically, that did not make them divers.

3) Mick O'Dwyer has always attempted to 'recruit' outsiders to his adopted counties in order to strengthen them. Again my opinion, it could be purely coincidental that there have been many transferees into counties Micko trained, or maybe they are attracted by the chance to work with him, but whatever the reason, he seems to have a much higher than normal ratio of such players.

Do you know the intimate details of all those cases ? Did Brian Lacey have his own reasons for playing for Kildare perhaps....I've already posted the article above about Walsh and why he transferred from Carlow. Of course Micko may attract these players , thats hardly his fault

4) Mick O'Dwyer plays the media like no one else before or, I suspect, afterwards. He has built an image of himself as a footballing evangelist, a purist who would never sink to employing crude or cynical tactics.

5) The media, for whatever reason, are unwilling or unable to see beyond this, and offer up criticisms of him in the same way they would of Kernan, Harte, Lyons, O'Mahony or any other manager. Instead they continually, for the past 20 years and more, feed us stories of this caricature of the man, a dancing, twinkle eyed, magical pied piper type from Waterville.

You must have a short memory AZ. Micko was literally hounded out of the Kerry Job and the media played their part. He also had dark days in Kildare and Laois where his ability and tactics were questioned. The rules of Gaelic Football were changed for christ sakes ! due in no small part to a media campaign against Mickos handpass tactics with Kerry. "Micko Dwyer , the man whose killing football" was the general gist of it.

[Tyrones own]

I do know he's been above any kind of fine or ban from officials for
blatant and consistent pitch encroachments over the years...

[Dinny Breen]

Lads, interesting debate but from a Kildare perspective before Micko took charge Kildare were in a worse state than they are today, he literally rose Kildare football from the dead. We will always be grateful for that and apart from maybe Martin Lynch Kildare didn't dive, example just look at the 1997 three game saga between Meath and Kildare, an epic series of football played as it should be. However what I will say is that because of Kildare's hand passing style, we worked the ball very close to goals and won many a free because of that, Padriag Gravin only got his place because he was an accurate free taker. It was not deliberate tactic to dive and I'm sure Willy McCreevy, Glen Ryan et al would be horrified if I ever accused them of that.

Also Brian Lacey was living in Kildare Town and playing for Towers before he joined up with the County panel, Brian was working in the IFSC and couldn't commute to Tipp. He was approached to join the Kildare panel and duly did, at 35 he still plays for Towers and I watched him play Saturday evening in The Park. He wasn't a mercenary and neither was Brian Murphy who moved to Kildare in the mid 90s from Cork and was playing with Clane for a couple of years before he got called up. Likewise Garvan Ware who was working in and playing for Clane, he was invited onto the panel for one year and it didn't work out for him. Kildare is a commuter county, we will always have a larger share of blow-ins than any other county.

The only player I would question is Karl, Micko's son I have no doubt he moved to Kildare under directions from his Dad, but he taught in Rathangan and played his football there and then for Towers.  Oh and make no mistake Larry Tompkins did not go to Cork because of work, he went there to play inter-county football.

The Declan Browne/Kildare thing is an urban myth, has  Declan Browne ever come out and said Micko approached him?

I'm as cynical as the next person and yes Micko does get a free ride from the media and to be honest I don't mind and long may the man continue because I can guarantee you as this thread testifies he stirs debate and gets people talking about the GAA and will be greatly missed when he does retire.

[AZOffaly]

 

AZ

Fair enough, but there are plenty in Kerry who have a go as well. In fact, I'm sure Dromid has its share of anti-micko sentiment as you well know. Local disputes are like any disputes i.e  there are two sides to them.

That's true, and I alluded to the fact when I said there are people down there who say anyone could have managed that Kerry team, incorrectly in my view.

If he is "as ready" as other managers then lets name and shame ....lets not always pick on the same guy. Seems fair dont you think ?
Martin Lynch , I believe, had a reputation for falling over but , apart from him, I would not consider that Kildare team as divers. I think their Leinster neighbours envy at their sudden success had a lot to do with their reputation. As for Laois, they were a light team that did not compete as well physically, that did not make them divers.

Yes, he is *as* ready to employ it. That's my point. I'm not saying he is any worse than anybody else in the tactics he employs, but the media would have you believe that he would never stoop to that. He is held up as the antithesis of all the modern ills. A football purist. Again, no worse than a lot of others, and you can watch the games yourself to see which teams do it, but he does it as well. And I'll just have to disagree with you about Kildare and Laois. It was quite clear from watching those teams that they looked for contact when soloing the ball, and when they got it, they went down for a free. That's my opinion.

Do you know the intimate details of all those cases ? Did Brian Lacey have his own reasons for playing for Kildare perhaps....I've already posted the article above about Walsh and why he transferred from Carlow. Of course Micko may attract these players , thats hardly his fault

No, it's not his fault if he is not actively recruiting them, but whatever the reason he tends to have a lot more than the average influx. I had even forgotten about some of the others that the lads mentioned above. But that aspect, again, is rarely mentioned in connection with him, by the media, certainly in any questioning way.

You must have a short memory AZ. Micko was literally hounded out of the Kerry Job and the media played their part. He also had dark days in Kildare and Laois where his ability and tactics were questioned. The rules of Gaelic Football were changed for christ sakes ! due in no small part to a media campaign against Mickos handpass tactics with Kerry. "Micko Dwyer , the man whose killing football" was the general gist of it.

The reason, as I recall, that he was 'hounded' out of Kerry was that he had held on too long to the same batch of players, and his loyalty to them, and theirs to him, meant that when they went, Kerry hit a fallow period. I don't think he was 'hounded' out in any other sense, but you would probably have better memory of that than me. As for dark days in Laois and Kildare with tactics, well, apart from the things I am talking about, and the other lads alluded to, I can't remember any criticism like that other than from fans watching the games and talking about it. And I certainly can't recall any of even that in the media. I'm open to correction on that point, but I certainly don't remember a 'Micko is killing football' campaign.


I don't think we disagree that much Mike. Maybe you are thinking I am singling out Micko for criticism above other managers. I'm not. That's why I say he is 'as ready' as other managers to do whatever it takes to win. Again, I have no real problem with that. But it is my impression that, far from being unfair on him, or even just fair to him, the media have decided to just overlook or brush over his 'faults' in a way that they wouldn't for other managers and have thus made a public caricature of the man which is not reflective of the reality. And Micko plays to that gallery, again because he knows it benefits him and his team.

[AZOffaly]

Lads, interesting debate but from a Kildare perspective before Micko took charge Kildare were in a worse state than they are today, he literally rose Kildare football from the dead. We will always be grateful for that and apart from maybe Martin Lynch Kildare didn't dive, example just look at the 1997 three game saga between Meath and Kildare, an epic series of football played as it should be. However what I will say is that because of Kildare's hand passing style, we worked the ball very close to goals and won many a free because of that, Padriag Gravin only got his place because he was an accurate free taker. It was not deliberate tactic to dive and I'm sure Willy McCreevy, Glen Ryan et al would be horrified if I ever accused them of that.

Also Brian Lacey was living in Kildare Town and playing for Towers before he joined up with the County panel, Brian was working in the IFSC and couldn't commute to Tipp. He was approached to join the Kildare panel and duly did, at 35 he still plays for Towers and I watched him play Saturday evening in The Park. He wasn't a mercenary and neither was Brian Murphy who moved to Kildare in the mid 90s from Cork and was playing with Clane for a couple of years before he got called up. Likewise Garvan Ware who was working in and playing for Clane, he was invited onto the panel for one year and it didn't work out for him. Kildare is a commuter county, we will always have a larger share of blow-ins than any other county.

The only player I would question is Karl, Micko's son I have no doubt he moved to Kildare under directions from his Dad, but he taught in Rathangan and played his football there and then for Towers.  Oh and make no mistake Larry Tompkins did not go to Cork because of work, he went there to play inter-county football.

The Declan Browne/Kildare thing is an urban myth, has  Declan Browne ever come out and said Micko approached him?

I'm as cynical as the next person and yes Micko does get a free ride from the media and to be honest I don't mind and long may the man continue because I can guarantee you as this thread testifies he stirs debate and gets people talking about the GAA and will be greatly missed when he does retire.

Good contribution Dinny, even though I disagree with a lot of it I know I'm looking at it a bit cynically myself, but I will just have to agree to disagree with you regarding the Kildare free situation. Martin Lynch was an obvious culprit, but in my opinion there was more than him at it. You might say 'because of Kildare's hand passing style, we worked the ball very close to goals and won many a free because of that', but I say ye worked it close to goals, and then when there was an opportunity Kildare looked for the free. Obviously I can't prove this scientifically, but It's certainly my opinion. I firmly believe Laois also used this tactic.

I will take your word for it re. the Kildare transferees.

As for your last paragraph, again, I will just differ in that when he gets a free ride, I do mind. But I will heartily agree on a few things. 1) He stirs debate. 2) Long may he continue and 3) He will be missed.

[Bensars]

I do know he's been above any kind of fine or ban from officials for
blatant and consistent pitch encroachments over the years...

Name other managers who have been fined for pitch encroachments ?

FFS  how petty is that.    Rumour has it that he also parked in a mother and toddlers space at Tescos once 

[AZOffaly]

I do know he's been above any kind of fine or ban from officials for
blatant and consistent pitch encroachments over the years...

Name other managers who have been fined for pitch encroachments ?

FFS  how petty is that.    Rumour has it that he also parked in a mother and toddlers space at Tescos once 

No, that was pints.