gaaboard.com

This is taken from www.anfearrua.ie, but since there are far more Ulster lads here I thought it might be interesting to hear what lads thought of it.


A Different Ball Game - The Future of the GAA in Northern Ireland

Part One of a Two Part series...

Political Football?
The GAA in Northern Ireland now enjoys an unprecedented level of media coverage and lucrative sponsorship. Despite its high profile however, it is still viewed with suspicion and distrust if not downright hostility by many within the unionist community and continues to court controversy for various reasons. Last year's news stories concerning players Darren Graham and Gerard Cavlan have demonstrated just how significant the impact of the organisation for better or for worse has become.

When Darren Graham threatened to quit playing for his Lisnaskea club in Fermanagh after enduring sustained sectarian abuse, what was originally a low key local issue quickly became front page news on both sides of the border. However, the very fact that Graham, a Protestant (having had family members in the UDR who were murdered by the IRA) was playing Gaelic games is surprising in itself. Ironically, Graham was playing for Lisnaskea Emmets, a club named after an 18th century nationalist martyr who also happened to be a Protestant.

Although Graham, as the writer Fintan O'Toole puts it "had the temerity to punch through the tribal stereotype by playing Gaelic football and not defining himself simply as a Protestant", the grim reality is that sport, religion and politics in Northern Ireland are all inextricably linked. One only has to look at the tediously long debates concerning the Northern Ireland football team, the Irish rugby team or the GAA on the online discussion forum Slugger O'Toole. Such threads are inevitably hijacked by detractors who constantly feel the need to bring politics into sport. The GAA's ethos is broadly nationalist, but the association claims to be non-sectarian. There is indeed no official bar to membership on the grounds of religion - or even politics for that matter. However the legacy of almost three decades of civil strife and a continued sense of "social apartheid" in Northern Ireland has made it difficult for the GAA to spread its reach beyond the nationalist community. The academic and sports historian Mike Cronin, writing in 2001 summarises the situation effectively:

"In the North during the troubles the GAA has been a central focus for the Catholic and nationalist community under its cover as a sporting association. It has espoused the broad republican and nationalist cause and in doing so has cemented its support amongst the Catholic and nationalist community, whilst bringing about the wrath of Unionist politicians, Loyalists Paramilitaries (sic), the RUC and the British Army. Institutionally and socially the GAA has backed the creation of a thirty-two county Ireland in direct contradiction to the wishes of Ulster's other tradition and resolutely fails to recruit Protestants to its ranks".
(Source: "Catholics and Sport in Northern Ireland: Exclusiveness or Inclusiveness", International Sports Studies, vol. 21, no. 1, 2001)

In the Republic this is rarely, if ever an issue, but the GAA in effect has two separate guises on the island, depending on which side of the border you're on.

Southern Comfort
Since the formation of the state, the GAA in the Republic has been very much a part of the establishment alongside the Catholic church. Although, not a Catholic organisation per se, it has strong historical links with the church as demonstrated by the naming of several clubs and grounds - not least Croke Park itself - after leading clergymen. The appointment of Jack Boothman, a member of the Church of Ireland from Wicklow as GAA president in 1993 therefore marked something of a publicity coup for the association. But in the divided society of the "fourth green field", things are quite different. Political commentator Mick Fealty puts it succinctly:

"This ideological filter is unique to GAA and, in Northern Ireland, it augments the kind of structural barrier (largely found in education) that also reduces (and almost eliminates) the number of NI Catholics who play rugby, hockey and cricket. So far as we know, it has successfully retarded the number of senior players in Fermanagh to one. As such, we know that few Protestants in Northern Ireland are prepared to sidestep that political obstacle in the way that many basically apolitical (at least viz a viz the constitution) NI Catholics are."
Source: http://www.sluggerotoole.com

As alluded to above, much of the inherent tension is a product of Northern Ireland's segregated schooling system. Catholic schools tend to shun the so-called "foreign games" of soccer, rugby and hockey in favour of Gaelic football, hurling and camogie, creating something of a vicious circle. Although rugby is a predominantly Protestant sport in Ulster, it carries none of the perceived sectarian or political trappings of its Gaelic counterpart. The irony here is that a northern nationalist will happily cheer on the Irish rugby team, but will most likely have never been to a rugby match let alone ever played the game.

In the immediate aftermath of the Darren Graham affair the Fermanagh Herald, the local nationalist newspaper which first broke the story published an article calling on the GAA to dump its political baggage once and for all. The writer points out the common misconception (chiefly held by its own members) that the GAA is a non-political organisation. Rule 7(a) affirms that the association should be non-party political, a subtle, but important difference. He goes on to state the uncomfortable truth for the organisation:

"Whether we care to admit it or not the majority of Unionists would find it very difficult to ascribe to the GAA under its present rules. I believe in the 21st century there is no requirement for sport and politics to mix and in the current climate of change it is time for the Association to itself change."

Such a change would be a radical step to take. The controversial naming of clubs and grounds after prominent nationalist figures, the flying of the tricolour and the playing of The Soldier's Song at important matches have not endeared the association to the unionist community. One particular recent incident which springs to mind was the staging of the hunger strike 25th anniversary commemoration rally at Casement Park, Belfast in 2006, in direct contravention of the association's ban on the use of premises for party political events. Croke Park responded with a mere slap on the wrist, implying at best a general sense of indifference and at worst turning a blind eye to such behaviour. Much condemnation naturally came from unionists, but also from moderate nationalists, who viewed the choice of venue as unacceptable, particularly when GAA clubs are regularly in receipt of lottery funding from the British government. Had the GAA imposed a hefty fine on the Antrim county board for breach of regulations the response from the unionist community may have been much more positive.

However, the association is not immune to criticism south of the border either - but for rather different reasons. A section of the Dublin-based media views the GAA with scorn and derision. Many in the south, particularly among the cosmopolitan, suburbanite middle classes, the so-called "D4 set" have a sneering attitude towards an organisation which they look down on as narrow-minded, rustic and perhaps symptomatic of the parochial values of "Old Ireland" which they would dearly love to leave behind. 'Sunday Independent' journalist Declan Lynch in one of his many tedious and predictable rants likened the recent All-Ireland hurling final to a bunch of farmers in fancy dress trying to club a rat to death. One can't help wondering if Lynch had a bad experience on the school playing field during his youth.


A Different Ball Game - The Future of the GAA in Northern Ireland - Part 2

Part Two of Ciarán Ward's incisive analysis...

Further north, although the tension and distrust remains, there have nevertheless been steps in the right direction as the peace process has gathered strength. One of the most significant events in the GAA's history was the abolition in 2001 of the controversial Rule 21 which banned British military and police personnel from participating. The journalist Ronnie Bellew in 'GAA: The Glory Years of Football and Hurling' attempts to explain the thinking behind this rule prior to the events leading up the Good Friday Agreement and the relative stability which followed - and led to its eventual deletion: "Like many nationalists, GAA members were convinced that there was British army and RUC collusion in some of the attacks on its members and property. Until the entire political and security climate in Ulster changed, Rule 21 was viewed as a necessary statement of independence and identity in a hostile environment".

The bizarre nature of Rule 21 meant that a Garda officer in Lifford, Co. Donegal could play for local GAA club, yet just a stone's throw away across the river in Strabane, Co. Tyrone his RUC equivalent doing more or less the same job would not have been welcome. Ironically, the GAA as a 32-county body had effectively been enforcing a partitionist mindset in maintaining the rule. When challenged by the media, northern GAA spokesmen had constantly asserted that their association was "non-political" - a somewhat disingenuous claim to have made while the above rule was still in place. Significantly, the only Northern county to vote for Rule 21's removal was Down, the first team to bring the Sam Maguire cup across the border in 1960.

It is perhaps no coincidence that no All-Ireland titles were won by any of the nine Ulster counties between 1968 and 1991, which as the sports writer Eamonn Sweeney points out was "a spell largely co-terminous with the Troubles, or at least the worst of them". However, the political climate has now transformed to the extent that the PSNI now has its own Gaelic football team. As recently as 10 years ago the very idea of Northern Ireland's police force playing Gaelic would have seemed preposterous. Another milestone came in 2007 when Croke Park was finally opened up to the "foreign" games of soccer and rugby after much heated debate and a not insignificant degree of opposition.

While the Darren Graham affair was simmering in Fermanagh, another unrelated scandal was unfolding in Tyrone. The All-Ireland medal winner Gerard Cavlan was revealed to be an active participant in the barbaric and illegal sport of dog-fighting after having been secretly filmed by an undercover reporter for the BBC Spotlight programme. Through no fault of its own the GAA had become unfairly implicated and came under pressure to speak out. In response, the Tyrone county board issued a brief statement on its website, affirming its unequivocal condemnation of dog-fighting. No mention of Cavlan was made, but his fall from grace may well have cut short his county career with the Red Hands.

Both stories, although only very tenuously linked illustrate the extent of the influence exerted by the GAA on Northern Ireland society and how widely this has spread in the space of a generation. In one of the most comprehensive works on the association's role within the Northern Ireland socio-political context How the GAA Survived the Troubles, Desmond Fahy emphasises just how much has changed since his school days in the 1980s:
"If the GAA was the influential sporting and cultural influence we thought it was, why was it never on the television? [A reference to the tendency of the Northern Ireland broadcast media to ignore the GAA roughly up until the mid-1980s]. If it performed such an important function in providing activity for hundreds upon hundreds of children, why did it receive no public funding...? By the start of the 1990s rival local television channels were fighting bitterly over the rights to show the games. It was a radical and dramatic transformation but it was an indication of the distance the GAA and its people had travelled in a remarkably short time."

The GAA and the "other side"
There have been positive moves such as cross-community youth initiatives and ground-sharing arrangements with other sports clubs, but a major psychological barrier still needs to be crossed. Short of token gestures and mealy-mouthed platitudes the GAA has not exactly been proactive in encouraging members of the "other" community to participate.

So what of the unionist community's overall attitude towards the GAA? Anecdotal evidence and media coverage suggest that there isn't one, as perceptions of the association within that community tend to vary immensely. Former Armagh player Jarlath Burns, in a revealing article in the now defunct Daily Ireland recalls going to watch an Orange parade in South Armagh, thinking he would blend in unrecognised, only to end up in lively conversation with some of the local brethren about his team's chances in that year's All-Ireland. Burns' story reveals that while many of the Protestant/Unionist community may dislike or disapprove of what the GAA stands for, they still follow the games with interest through television and the newspapers, but for obvious reasons will stop short at attending a match.

In recent years stronger links have been forged with the local soccer and rugby-playing fraternities. Tyrone manager Mickey Harte in his book Kicking Down Heaven's Door recalls being invited to a local rugby club function and underlines the significance of the opportunity, stating "There was a time not so long ago when you couldn't have dreamed of a Tyrone football manager being asked to do it, so I thought it was important to acknowledge their gesture with my presence".

The 2003 All-Ireland final between Tyrone and Armagh, the first to be contested between two Ulster teams, jokingly dubbed the "All-British All-Ireland final" generated an unprecedented wave of media coverage across Ireland and beyond. Even some of the British national broadsheets, including The Independent carried articles on it. The Belfast Telegraph on the eve of the match devoted its entire leader column to the historic event, an unusual step for a nominally unionist paper. In a positive and encouraging piece it described the occasion as a "unique chance for the GAA to reach out beyond its national roots" and stressed that the success of any local team, whatever the sport should be a "source of pride" and not a "source of community division". The comic potential of the phenomenon was not lost on supporters as evidenced by a Tyrone banner which took the form of a red hand of Ulster Stormont flag, an essentially unionist symbol, bearing the legend "For Peter and Ulster", referring, in a variation of the well-known loyalist slogan to team captain Peter Canavan, nicknamed "God" due to his larger-than-life profile and his omnipresence on the field. Similarly, many of the Armagh banners carried slogans relating to Orangemen on tour, an ironic reference to the team colour.

A New Dawn?
A couple of days later the victorious Tyrone team having won its first ever All-Ireland title paraded the Sam Maguire cup through the centre of Omagh just five years after a devastating bomb had ripped the heart out of the town, killing 29 people. There was certainly a renewed feelgood factor generated in the town and the surrounding rural area, made all the more poignant by recent memories of the atrocity, many of whose victims were connected with the GAA. But was the euphoria shared by those within the reformed churches and those of a pro-British leaning within the county? It seems fair to assume that for some it certainly was, but most were largely indifferent to the celebrations, while an extremist minority begrudged the success. However it is significant that the then chairman of the local council, Allan Rainey, an Ulster Unionist was pictured in the local paper with the Tyrone manager Mickey Harte, team captain Peter Canavan and the cup. The then chairman of neighbouring Strabane District Council, Jim Emery, also a Unionist had sent his best wishes to the team. One could argue that they were simply doing the diplomatic thing in exercising their civic duties, but small gestures can mean so much.

The GAA has not been left untouched by the rapid social changes sweeping the Republic, and to a lesser extent the North, in recent years. As Irish society becomes increasingly affluent, secular and multicultural the transformations are being felt. Players from mixed race backgrounds like the O'Hailpin brothers of Cork and Dublin's Jason Sherlock have won All-Ireland medals and made their mark. The sight of black children swinging hurleys is no longer an unusual sight in many towns across the Republic. The question of whether the North will follow suit - thus opening up the possibility of the GAA becoming a more inclusive organisation - remains to be seen. The fact that Darren Graham, after receiving assurances from the Fermanagh county board that sectarianism would not be tolerated was persuaded to return to action is encouraging. Further social changes are possible, but will not take place overnight.

© Ciaran Ward 2007

Ciaran Ward is a free-lance writer based in London. He regularly blogs on a wide range of topics at http://thelonglane.blogspot.com

Although the Darren Graham incident was blown out of all proportion (there is no problem with sectarianism in Fermanagh football) it did make all of us in the GAA think about what the association stands for and how it is viewed by non Gaels. The GAA is a nationalist organisation, there is no doubting that, and there is a strong link with the catholic parish, in rural areas especially. I'm not saying that there is anything wrong with that but in reality all sporting assocations should really be impartial and as Ward writes, it's doubtful whether the GAA in it's current format is.

To describe this contrived ill thought out piece as incisive, is demeaning language. From its very foundation the G.A.A. has always been clear and upfront re. its position regarding the National question. The promotion of an irish identity within a sovereign irish state, has always been a core value. Membership is open to all regardless of religion or politics. As in every field of life, people who disagree with the aims and objectives of any organisation will not subscribe to or join that organisation. That is the reasonable view of the Unionist people of N.I.   For the G.A.A. to pretend to be something other than what it is, an attempt to promote itself as a mere sporting organisation, to widen its appeal, would be dishonest, and insulting to the intelligence of both communities. You can only reach out to people by stating your position honestly and with integrity. A debate based on any other premise is a fraud.

Quote from: inisceithleann on January 14, 2008, 08:38:17 PM
Although the Darren Graham incident was blown out of all proportion (there is no problem with sectarianism in Fermanagh football)

So he dreamed it all up? Clearly their was some level of sectarianism in Fermanagh football

Quote from: Pangurban on January 14, 2008, 10:53:51 PM
To describe this contrived ill thought out piece as incisive, is demeaning language. From its very foundation the G.A.A. has always been clear and upfront re. its position regarding the National question. The promotion of an irish identity within a sovereign irish state, has always been a core value. Membership is open to all regardless of religion or politics. As in every field of life, people who disagree with the aims and objectives of any organisation will not subscribe to or join that organisation. That is the reasonable view of the Unionist people of N.I.   For the G.A.A. to pretend to be something other than what it is, an attempt to promote itself as a mere sporting organisation, to widen its appeal, would be dishonest, and insulting to the intelligence of both communities. You can only reach out to people by stating your position honestly and with integrity. A debate based on any other premise is a fraud.

Why cant the GAA become non political , just be a sporting organisation a kin to the IRFU ,NFL

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 12:44:08 AM

Quote from: Pangurban on January 14, 2008, 10:53:51 PM
To describe this contrived ill thought out piece as incisive, is demeaning language. From its very foundation the G.A.A. has always been clear and upfront re. its position regarding the National question. The promotion of an irish identity within a sovereign irish state, has always been a core value. Membership is open to all regardless of religion or politics. As in every field of life, people who disagree with the aims and objectives of any organisation will not subscribe to or join that organisation. That is the reasonable view of the Unionist people of N.I.   For the G.A.A. to pretend to be something other than what it is, an attempt to promote itself as a mere sporting organisation, to widen its appeal, would be dishonest, and insulting to the intelligence of both communities. You can only reach out to people by stating your position honestly and with integrity. A debate based on any other premise is a fraud.

Why cant the GAA become non political , just be a sporting organisation a kin to the IRFU ,NFL

I have to agree with Pangurban on this issue. If the GAA changed its whole thinking it would be against the whole ethos of the organisation and would be to the detrement of the organisation. I am not saying that the GAA should not be inclusive or encourage everyone to join but what I am saying is that it should not have to change what it stands for in order to do this.

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 12:41:43 AM

Quote from: inisceithleann on January 14, 2008, 08:38:17 PM
Although the Darren Graham incident was blown out of all proportion (there is no problem with sectarianism in Fermanagh football)

So he dreamed it all up? Clearly their was some level of sectarianism in Fermanagh football

No clearly there was sectarianism displayed in matches involving two neighbouring clubs and directed against one member of the Lisnaskea club. Does this represent sectarianism in Fermanagh football or does it illustrate how moronic a couple of individuals can be ie using a persons religion to intimidate them on a pitch. To tar all Fermanagh football with the sectarian brush because of incidents in matches over a number of years between 2 neighbouring clubs is a bit lazy.

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 12:44:08 AM

Quote from: Pangurban on January 14, 2008, 10:53:51 PM
To describe this contrived ill thought out piece as incisive, is demeaning language. From its very foundation the G.A.A. has always been clear and upfront re. its position regarding the National question. The promotion of an irish identity within a sovereign irish state, has always been a core value. Membership is open to all regardless of religion or politics. As in every field of life, people who disagree with the aims and objectives of any organisation will not subscribe to or join that organisation. That is the reasonable view of the Unionist people of N.I.   For the G.A.A. to pretend to be something other than what it is, an attempt to promote itself as a mere sporting organisation, to widen its appeal, would be dishonest, and insulting to the intelligence of both communities. You can only reach out to people by stating your position honestly and with integrity. A debate based on any other premise is a fraud.

Why cant the GAA become non political , just be a sporting organisation a kin to the IRFU ,NFL

Many NI fans would argue that the IRFU is political given its stance over the national anthems.

'Many NI fans would argue that the IRFU is political given its stance over the national anthems.'

The only one being political is that dress-wearing clown Laird.  The Ulster branch of the IRFU represents the nine counties of the province, not the six county rump of the statelet...

Quote from: red hander on January 15, 2008, 10:11:11 AM
not the six county rump of the statelet...

Those pesky malcontents eh  ;)

Imagine NI Fans accusing the IRFU or any other sporting body of political.  How would they describe the IFA?.

Incompetent binbrains

What a load of shite !

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 12:44:08 AM

Quote from: Pangurban on January 14, 2008, 10:53:51 PM
To describe this contrived ill thought out piece as incisive, is demeaning language. From its very foundation the G.A.A. has always been clear and upfront re. its position regarding the National question. The promotion of an irish identity within a sovereign irish state, has always been a core value. Membership is open to all regardless of religion or politics. As in every field of life, people who disagree with the aims and objectives of any organisation will not subscribe to or join that organisation. That is the reasonable view of the Unionist people of N.I.   For the G.A.A. to pretend to be something other than what it is, an attempt to promote itself as a mere sporting organisation, to widen its appeal, would be dishonest, and insulting to the intelligence of both communities. You can only reach out to people by stating your position honestly and with integrity. A debate based on any other premise is a fraud.

Why cant the GAA become non political , just be a sporting organisation a kin to the IRFU ,NFL

Why should the GAA change its entire ethos?

I agree with Pangurban completely.

NO sporting  organization has done more political damage to ireland than the moron in the FAI with their insistence on having their own tean since breaking away from the IFA.
If 90% of other sporting organizations can have an all island team why cant the FAI return to their root and help create a peaceful sporting athmosphere

For the same reason turkeys don't vote for Christmas. The amount of blazers and hangers on to the international team(s) would be halved, and we can't have that can we?

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 11:39:41 AM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 12:44:08 AM

Quote from: Pangurban on January 14, 2008, 10:53:51 PM
To describe this contrived ill thought out piece as incisive, is demeaning language. From its very foundation the G.A.A. has always been clear and upfront re. its position regarding the National question. The promotion of an irish identity within a sovereign irish state, has always been a core value. Membership is open to all regardless of religion or politics. As in every field of life, people who disagree with the aims and objectives of any organisation will not subscribe to or join that organisation. That is the reasonable view of the Unionist people of N.I.   For the G.A.A. to pretend to be something other than what it is, an attempt to promote itself as a mere sporting organisation, to widen its appeal, would be dishonest, and insulting to the intelligence of both communities. You can only reach out to people by stating your position honestly and with integrity. A debate based on any other premise is a fraud.

Why cant the GAA become non political , just be a sporting organisation a kin to the IRFU ,NFL

Why should the GAA change its entire ethos?

I agree with Pangurban completely.

Etho's what a great undefinable term. Some times i think you lot where happier during the troubles

Gnevin is one of the modern breed. No religion, no remembrance of the past, no tradition.
Its ok to slag republicans but not unionists etc etc.

Its a funny world these days.

To suggest that liking the GAA being tied to the national identity is somehow comparable to being happier during the troubles is disgraceful though.

Quote from: his holiness nb on January 15, 2008, 05:27:04 PM
Gnevin is one of the modern breed. No religion, no remembrance of the past, no tradition.
Its ok to slag republicans but not unionists etc etc.

Its a funny world these days.

To suggest that liking the GAA being tied to the national identity is somehow comparable to being happier during the troubles is disgraceful though.

I've plenty remembrance of the past and tradition. Every time we as an organisation try to move forward we have Northern nationalist trying to drag back into the unhappy mire of the past .

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 05:37:52 PM

Quote from: his holiness nb on January 15, 2008, 05:27:04 PM
Gnevin is one of the modern breed. No religion, no remembrance of the past, no tradition.
Its ok to slag republicans but not unionists etc etc.

Its a funny world these days.

To suggest that liking the GAA being tied to the national identity is somehow comparable to being happier during the troubles is disgraceful though.

I've plenty remembrance of the past and tradition. Every time we as an organisation try to move forward we have Northern nationalist trying to drag back into the unhappy mire of the past .

Drag us back? All they are saying here is they like it as it is. So do I, and I aint a Nordie.

Quote from: his holiness nb on January 15, 2008, 05:27:04 PM
Gnevin is one of the modern breed. No religion, no remembrance of the past, no tradition.
Its ok to slag republicans but not unionists etc etc.

Its a funny world these days.

To suggest that liking the GAA being tied to the national identity is somehow comparable to being happier during the troubles is disgraceful though.

Something tells me he is what I would call a West Brit

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 05:16:30 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 11:39:41 AM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 12:44:08 AM

Quote from: Pangurban on January 14, 2008, 10:53:51 PM
To describe this contrived ill thought out piece as incisive, is demeaning language. From its very foundation the G.A.A. has always been clear and upfront re. its position regarding the National question. The promotion of an irish identity within a sovereign irish state, has always been a core value. Membership is open to all regardless of religion or politics. As in every field of life, people who disagree with the aims and objectives of any organisation will not subscribe to or join that organisation. That is the reasonable view of the Unionist people of N.I.   For the G.A.A. to pretend to be something other than what it is, an attempt to promote itself as a mere sporting organisation, to widen its appeal, would be dishonest, and insulting to the intelligence of both communities. You can only reach out to people by stating your position honestly and with integrity. A debate based on any other premise is a fraud.

Why cant the GAA become non political , just be a sporting organisation a kin to the IRFU ,NFL

Why should the GAA change its entire ethos?

I agree with Pangurban completely.

Etho's what a great undefinable term. Some times i think you lot where happier during the troubles

The parish structure and the progression of players through teams, the whole community helping out or being part of the club in some way, makes it different than those other sporting administraive bodies that you mention.  Because it is so central in community spirit and cohesion, this inevitably makes the GAA more that "just a sporting organisation."  This is someting to be proud of, not something to try and change.  

Fostering a national identity is something that has always been an aim of the GAA, as long as this continues to be done in a non-threatening and inclusive manner why should it pose a problem to anyone?

Nail on head

Quote from: Rav67 on January 15, 2008, 05:42:24 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 05:16:30 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 11:39:41 AM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 12:44:08 AM

Quote from: Pangurban on January 14, 2008, 10:53:51 PM
To describe this contrived ill thought out piece as incisive, is demeaning language. From its very foundation the G.A.A. has always been clear and upfront re. its position regarding the National question. The promotion of an irish identity within a sovereign irish state, has always been a core value. Membership is open to all regardless of religion or politics. As in every field of life, people who disagree with the aims and objectives of any organisation will not subscribe to or join that organisation. That is the reasonable view of the Unionist people of N.I.   For the G.A.A. to pretend to be something other than what it is, an attempt to promote itself as a mere sporting organisation, to widen its appeal, would be dishonest, and insulting to the intelligence of both communities. You can only reach out to people by stating your position honestly and with integrity. A debate based on any other premise is a fraud.

Why cant the GAA become non political , just be a sporting organisation a kin to the IRFU ,NFL

Why should the GAA change its entire ethos?

I agree with Pangurban completely.

Etho's what a great undefinable term. Some times i think you lot where happier during the troubles

The parish structure and the progression of players through teams, the whole community helping out or being part of the club in some way, makes it different than those other sporting administraive bodies that you mention.  Because it is so central in community spirit and cohesion, this inevitably makes the GAA more that "just a sporting organisation."  This is someting to be proud of, not something to try and change. 

Fostering a national identity is something that has always been an aim of the GAA, as long as this continues to be done in a non-threatening and inclusive manner why should it pose a problem to anyone?

Yeah not a problem with that up to the second paragraph  Switch national identity to Irish cultural identity and it's 100% .

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 05:40:36 PM

Quote from: his holiness nb on January 15, 2008, 05:27:04 PM
Gnevin is one of the modern breed. No religion, no remembrance of the past, no tradition.
Its ok to slag republicans but not unionists etc etc.

Its a funny world these days.

To suggest that liking the GAA being tied to the national identity is somehow comparable to being happier during the troubles is disgraceful though.

Something tells me he is what I would call a West Brit

Wow naming calling , That adds a lot to the debate

Quote from: his holiness nb on January 15, 2008, 05:39:09 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 05:37:52 PM

Quote from: his holiness nb on January 15, 2008, 05:27:04 PM
Gnevin is one of the modern breed. No religion, no remembrance of the past, no tradition.
Its ok to slag republicans but not unionists etc etc.

Its a funny world these days.

To suggest that liking the GAA being tied to the national identity is somehow comparable to being happier during the troubles is disgraceful though.

I've plenty remembrance of the past and tradition. Every time we as an organisation try to move forward we have Northern nationalist trying to drag back into the unhappy mire of the past .

Drag us back? All they are saying here is they like it as it is. So do I, and I aint a Nordie.

Which counties voted against removing the ban on police service
Which counties voted against opening Croker ?
No doubt the voted against lifting the ban on other sports?
Where does the loudest objections to making any moves to extend the reach of the gaa come from.?

If it looks, walks and acts like a duck, it's a duck.

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 06:01:13 PM
If it looks, walks and acts like a duck, it's a duck.

::)

Surely there's merit in being progressive rather than strictly conservative?
Things move with the times. In many respects, i'm glad Ireland has moved on into a modern secular society, free from the previous shackles of the Church, for example.  

Surely there's room for progression within the GAA too.  I'm not saying that to do so we have to throw out all the tradition and start from scratch, but there must be room, a need even, to evolve. I don't think such opinions equate to 'selling out' or being labelled a 'West Brit'.

Quote from: Maguire01 on January 15, 2008, 06:10:22 PM
Surely there's merit in being progressive rather than strictly conservative?
Things move with the times. In many respects, i'm glad Ireland has moved on into a modern secular society, free from the previous shackles of the Church, for example. 

Surely there's room for progression within the GAA too.  I'm not saying that to do so we have to throw out all the tradition and start from scratch, but there must be room, a need even, to evolve. I don't think such opinions equate to 'selling out' or being labelled a 'West Brit'.

What he said!

Quote from: Maguire01 on January 15, 2008, 06:10:22 PM
Surely there's merit in being progressive rather than strictly conservative?
Things move with the times. In many respects, i'm glad Ireland has moved on into a modern secular society, free from the previous shackles of the Church, for example.  

Surely there's room for progression within the GAA too.  I'm not saying that to do so we have to throw out all the tradition and start from scratch, but there must be room, a need even, to evolve. I don't think such opinions equate to 'selling out' or being labelled a 'West Brit'.

I like the Association the way it is, thanks very much.  Change for the sake of it is a nonsense which is precisely what the writer of the article was at.  Why should we dilute the very principles the Association was founded on in the name of 'progress'?

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 06:17:03 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on January 15, 2008, 06:10:22 PM
Surely there's merit in being progressive rather than strictly conservative?
Things move with the times. In many respects, i'm glad Ireland has moved on into a modern secular society, free from the previous shackles of the Church, for example. 

Surely there's room for progression within the GAA too.  I'm not saying that to do so we have to throw out all the tradition and start from scratch, but there must be room, a need even, to evolve. I don't think such opinions equate to 'selling out' or being labelled a 'West Brit'.

I like the Association the way it is, thanks very much.  Change for the sake of it is a nonsense which is precisely what the writer of the article was at.  Why should we dilute the very principles the Association was founded on in the name of 'progress'?

How much effect does flying a tricolour or singing the anthem them have on the associations principles for example ?

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 06:17:03 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on January 15, 2008, 06:10:22 PM
Surely there's merit in being progressive rather than strictly conservative?
Things move with the times. In many respects, i'm glad Ireland has moved on into a modern secular society, free from the previous shackles of the Church, for example.  

Surely there's room for progression within the GAA too.  I'm not saying that to do so we have to throw out all the tradition and start from scratch, but there must be room, a need even, to evolve. I don't think such opinions equate to 'selling out' or being labelled a 'West Brit'.

I like the Association the way it is, thanks very much.  Change for the sake of it is a nonsense which is precisely what the writer of the article was at.  Why should we dilute the very principles the Association was founded on in the name of 'progress'?

But it's not change for the sake of it.  Read the article again.

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 06:19:18 PM

How much effect does flying a tricolour or singing the anthem them have on the associations principles for example ?

To the very core

Quote from: Maguire01 on January 15, 2008, 06:20:38 PM
But it's not change for the sake of it.  Read the article again.

I beg to differ. 

There would be little point in it being called the Gaelic Athletic Association if those changes were implemented, in my opinion.

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 06:20:56 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 06:19:18 PM

How much effect does flying a tricolour or singing the anthem them have on the associations principles for example ?

To the very core

Very little. This is the core principle's of the GAA

The parish structure and the progression of players through teams, the whole community helping out or being part of the club in some way, makes it different than those other sporting administraive bodies that you mention.  Because it is so central in community spirit and cohesion, this inevitably makes the GAA more that "just a sporting organisation."  This is someting to be proud of, not something to try and change. 

And foresting  Irish identity and Culture  none of which are affect by the lack of the Flag . Which ironically enough hasn't flown at a Dublin home match for over 2 years if I'm not mistaken .

Nothing like a bit of selectivity is there?

Try reading the entire thing http://www.gaa.ie/files/official_reports/og_part1_jan_2007.pdf

{Edited to remove second link which is irrelevant}

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 06:44:12 PM
Nothing like a bit of selectivity is there?

Try reading the entire thing http://www.gaa.ie/files/official_reports/og_part1_jan_2007.pdf

{Edited to remove second link which is irrelevant}

Link doesn't load correctly but i assume your referring to this

Quote from: Rav67 on January 15, 2008, 05:42:24 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 05:16:30 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 11:39:41 AM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 12:44:08 AM

Quote from: Pangurban on January 14, 2008, 10:53:51 PM
To describe this contrived ill thought out piece as incisive, is demeaning language. From its very foundation the G.A.A. has always been clear and upfront re. its position regarding the National question. The promotion of an irish identity within a sovereign irish state, has always been a core value. Membership is open to all regardless of religion or politics. As in every field of life, people who disagree with the aims and objectives of any organisation will not subscribe to or join that organisation. That is the reasonable view of the Unionist people of N.I.   For the G.A.A. to pretend to be something other than what it is, an attempt to promote itself as a mere sporting organisation, to widen its appeal, would be dishonest, and insulting to the intelligence of both communities. You can only reach out to people by stating your position honestly and with integrity. A debate based on any other premise is a fraud.

Why cant the GAA become non political , just be a sporting organisation a kin to the IRFU ,NFL

Why should the GAA change its entire ethos?

I agree with Pangurban completely.

Etho's what a great undefinable term. Some times i think you lot where happier during the troubles

The parish structure and the progression of players through teams, the whole community helping out or being part of the club in some way, makes it different than those other sporting administraive bodies that you mention.  Because it is so central in community spirit and cohesion, this inevitably makes the GAA more that "just a sporting organisation."  This is someting to be proud of, not something to try and change. 

Fostering a national identity is something that has always been an aim of the GAA, as long as this continues to be done in a non-threatening and inclusive manner why should it pose a problem to anyone?

Yeah not a problem with that up to the second paragraph  Switch national identity to Irish cultural identity and it's 100% .

Yes, but the basic aim:

QuoteBasic Aim
The Association is a National Organisation which has as its
basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity in a
32 County Ireland through the preservation and
promotion of Gaelic Games and pastimes.

Surely then, it's the games and passtimes that strengthen the national identity through the GAA, not the flags and anthems.

The Gaelic Athletic Association today is an organisation which reaches into every corner of the land and has its roots in every Irish parish.
Throughout the Country, legions of voluntary workers willingly make sacrifices to promote its ideals and carry its daily burdens. Why does the Association receive this unselfish support?
Those who play its games, those who organise its activities and those who control its destinies see in the G.A.A. a means of consolidating our Irish identity. The games to them are more than games - they have a national significance - and the promotion of native pastimes becomes a part of the full national ideal, which envisages the speaking of our own language, music and dances. The primary purpose of the G.A.A. is the organisation of native pastimes and the promotion of athletic fitness as a means to create a disciplined, self- reliant, national-minded manhood. The overall result is the expression of a people's preference for native ways as opposed to imported ones.
Since she has no control over all the national territory, Ireland's claim to nationhood is impaired. It would be still more impaired if she were to lose her language, if she failed to provide a decent livelihood for her people at home, or if she were to forsake her own games and customs in favour of the games and customs of another nation. If pride in the attributes of nationhood dies, something good and distinctive in our race dies with it. Each national quality that is lost makes us so much poorer as a Nation. Today, the native games
take on a new significance when it is realised that they have been a part, and still are a part, of the Nation's desire to live her own life, to govern her own affairs

Above is as published by Central Council only last year.

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 07:10:02 PM
The Gaelic Athletic Association today is an organisation which reaches into every corner of the land and has its roots in every Irish parish.
Throughout the Country, legions of voluntary workers willingly make sacrifices to promote its ideals and carry its daily burdens. Why does the Association receive this unselfish support?
Those who play its games, those who organise its activities and those who control its destinies see in the G.A.A. a means of consolidating our Irish identity. The games to them are more than games - they have a national significance - and the promotion of native pastimes becomes a part of the full national ideal, which envisages the speaking of our own language, music and dances. The primary purpose of the G.A.A. is the organisation of native pastimes and the promotion of athletic fitness as a means to create a disciplined, self- reliant, national-minded manhood. The overall result is the expression of a people's preference for native ways as opposed to imported ones.
Since she has no control over all the national territory, Ireland's claim to nationhood is impaired. It would be still more impaired if she were to lose her language, if she failed to provide a decent livelihood for her people at home, or if she were to forsake her own games and customs in favour of the games and customs of another nation. If pride in the attributes of nationhood dies, something good and distinctive in our race dies with it. Each national quality that is lost makes us so much poorer as a Nation. Today, the native games
take on a new significance when it is realised that they have been a part, and still are a part, of the Nation's desire to live her own life, to govern her own affairs

Above is as published by Central Council only last year.

See nothing about Flags or Anthems there

It's implicit.

So how would flag and anthem issues undermine that?

The emphasis in that extract is on the games and the power of the games to consolidate national identity.

I'm not sure that anyone has argued with what's in that extract.

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 07:19:13 PM
It's implicit.

No it's not

Ard if flags are so important how come Dublin's home games have had no Tricolour for 2 years and no one has raised the issue and the association hasn't been rocked to its core?

Maguire there have never been flag and anthem issues before.

I love being in Croke, eyes toward the flag and singing in Gaelic on Sundays in September.  That is the showcase of the entire year.  I don't see why having pride in our nation and showing it culturally and politically should be a problem.  I say politically because it is a political act to express pride in your national identity as opposed to being party political. 

Tell me this Maguire, do you know many people involved in rural clubs?

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 08:11:59 PM
Tell me this Maguire, do you know many people involved in rural clubs?

Why?

Well, from my experience, the GAA has been to the fore-front in bridge-building, even throughout the troubles.  I know of clubs in Tyrone that have helped their local Orange Order in the run-up to the 12th.  I know of clubs which have done similar in Armagh, Antrim and Down. 

It's only Political people who are making distinctions which would make me wonder what motive was behind the journalist as he couldn't have done too much research into what clubs are doing or what the Protestant community in the north thinks of the GAA generally.

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 08:11:59 PM
Maguire there have never been flag and anthem issues before.

I love being in Croke, eyes toward the flag and singing in Gaelic on Sundays in September.  That is the showcase of the entire year.  I don't see why having pride in our nation and showing it culturally and politically should be a problem.  I say politically because it is a political act to express pride in your national identity as opposed to being party political. 

Tell me this Maguire, do you know many people involved in rural clubs?

It inst a problem but it also isn't a prerequisite of the organisations success.

For the record, i am from the country (there aren't too many places in Monaghan that you could call metropolitan!), although i live in the city now.

I know how things work in rural areas where communities are close - i know that there are numerous examples of cross-community cooperation.  That doesn't counter the fact that those of a unionist background (in the main) have little involvement with the GAA.

I'm still not seeing the value in your argument for the flag/anthem and what it adds to the GAA experience - or more importantly, what we would lose without such things. I know i don't need a flag to remind me I'm Irish - I'm sufficiently confident and secure in my national identity as it is. The games themselves promote Irish identity.

ardmhachaabu ,what does the Irish flag and anthem add too the Swedish national playing football in Japan?

Quote from: Maguire01 on January 15, 2008, 08:30:01 PM
For the record, i am from the country (there aren't too many places in Monaghan that you could call metropolitan!), although i live in the city now.

I know how things work in rural areas where communities are close - i know that there are numerous examples of cross-community cooperation.  That doesn't counter the fact that those of a unionist background (in the main) have little involvement with the GAA.

I'm still not seeing the value in your argument for the flag/anthem and what it adds to the GAA experience - or more importantly, what we would lose without such things. I know i don't need a flag to remind me I'm Irish - I'm sufficiently confident and secure in my national identity as it is. The games themselves promote Irish identity.

My point is twofold; firstly those links exist.  They exist with the presence of the flag at every match in the north.

Secondly, it's symbolism.  What better way have we of encouraging unionists to get involved in Gaelic games and culture generaly than by flying the flag that symbolises peace between Orange and Green?

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 08:55:53 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on January 15, 2008, 08:30:01 PM
For the record, i am from the country (there aren't too many places in Monaghan that you could call metropolitan!), although i live in the city now.

I know how things work in rural areas where communities are close - i know that there are numerous examples of cross-community cooperation.  That doesn't counter the fact that those of a unionist background (in the main) have little involvement with the GAA.

I'm still not seeing the value in your argument for the flag/anthem and what it adds to the GAA experience - or more importantly, what we would lose without such things. I know i don't need a flag to remind me I'm Irish - I'm sufficiently confident and secure in my national identity as it is. The games themselves promote Irish identity.

My point is twofold; firstly those links exist.  They exist with the presence of the flag at every match in the north.

Secondly, it's symbolism.  What better way have we of encouraging unionists to get involved in Gaelic games and culture generaly than by flying the flag that symbolises peace between Orange and Green?

If you believe that's the only symbolism and emotion for Unionist your very naive . And the only thing this image symbolises is the confederate navy .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Conf_Navy_Jack_%28light_blue%29.svg

And  of course the only emotion this image generates is Buddhism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nazi_Swastika.svg

I am not worried about offending unionists,if they are going to be offended by a flag, they wouldn't much like the banter either  ;)

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 09:25:20 PM
I am not worried about offending unionists,if they are going to be offended by a flag, they wouldn't much like the banter either  ;)

And the truth comes out . Next time can we cut the crap

Why should I be worried about offending anyone?

Are we to have an Association which tippy toes around people?

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 09:49:56 PM
Why should I be worried about offending anyone?

Are we to have an Association which tippy toes around people?

You don't have to worry about anything. Sure we should burn an effigy of the Queen before each game too.

Don't you think the Association should take proactive moves to encourage others?

No, but we should take reasonable steps where we can remove barriers perceived or not.

I sniff desperation on your behalf gnevin.

The tricolour can not be equated to the swastika, ever.

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 09:07:17 PM
And  of course the only emotion this image generates is Buddhism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nazi_Swastika.svg

Gnevin, the swastika is a Hindu symbol, and while I was in a Hindu temple in India last year the swastika emblem was proudly shown in the artwork in the temple as its Hindu meaning is not offensive. If someone else hijacked the symbol for other means to offend people, thats not the fault of the Hindu people and it doesnt stop them using the symbol with pride.

The very same comparision can be used for the tricolour, just because the Unionist people decide they want to be offended by a flag designed to represent harmony between the "orange" and "green" peoples of out county, doent mean it is an offensive flag and shouldnt be a reason for hiding it away.

Comparing the flag with buring effigies of the queen is crazy, burining effegies is a gesture purely meant to offend.

this whole debate is a prime example of the pc ridden world we live in today. as if the british schools letting on the holocaust didnt happen so as not to offend muslims wasnt a bad enough example we now have people saying that we should ditch our national flag and national anthem from our national games. i cant make sense of it at all.

in my opinion it is a prime example of 'when in rome, do what the romans do'. there is nothing to stop unionists joining our association but they must accept that it is an IRISH sporting and cultural organisation formed long before partition of the country. it is up to them to embrace the element of irish culture not for us to remove it.

the problem lies in the fact that a majority of unionists still see the gaa as the baddies, the ira at play etc ( due to what they have been told to believe by their political leaders). although they may say they refuse to join the gaa because of the presence of flags/irish national anthem/ club names this isnt the case. they hate the gaa because it is a part of irish culture and this is something that the gaa cannot change. unionists view all irish culture as a threat. they have been told by their leaders for years to dislike irish culture and sports, even though most have never come into contact with it. they believe it is the nationalist version of the orange order in that protestants are barred from joining. i live in a predominantly unionist area and can tell you that very few unionists will believe me when i say that a gaa president in the 90's was a protestant. they refuse to believe it, think it couldnt happen.

it is not our association that needs to change, it is the wider unionist communities warped view of what the gaa is. in my opinion the only cure for this is time. i can see from my own area that attitudes are beginning to slowly change. give it 10 years and then see where we are. in the meantime no radical changes please.

Theres something creeping into peoples heads down here, maybe due to years of the Sun and the Star, that suggests that our flag and anthem is offensive and something to be ashamed of. Yet when the same is said of the British, who pillaged the world for centuries, well you just cant say that. It makes you a backwoodsman and bigoted. Its f**king crazy.

Behind the wire got it spot on, Unionist children are brought up to hate the GAA as its, well too Irish for them. It has NOTHING to do with the flags and anthems and removing them will do nothing to improve relationships, its the Unionist mindset towards the GAA which needs changing. If we were (buzzword alert) progressive and removed them there would be certain elements in the Unionist sides claiming victory of the GAA in a "look what we made them do" sort of way, but they wouldnt be turning up at your local club because of it.

People need to think for themselves and not what they think they are meant to think from a pc point of view, its ridiculous.

Why is it when somebody from the North stands up for what they believe in they are a bigot but when other people do it they are simply standing up for what they believe in? Everyone is welcome to come and join the GAA but it should not change what it stands for in order to do this.

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 06:31:27 PMAnd foresting  Irish identity and Culture  none of which are affect by the lack of the Flag . Which ironically enough hasn't flown at a Dublin home match for over 2 years if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, was looking for it last Saturday during the anthems, wtf???

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 16, 2008, 09:20:13 AM
I sniff desperation on your behalf gnevin.

The tricolour can not be equated to the swastika, ever.

Talk about missing the point!

Quote from: behind the wire on January 16, 2008, 10:08:30 AM
in my opinion it is a prime example of 'when in rome, do what the romans do'. there is nothing to stop unionists joining our association but they must accept that it is an IRISH sporting and cultural organisation formed long before partition of the country. it is up to them to embrace the element of irish culture not for us to remove it.

If you're arguing that it was formed long before partition, then you clearly understand that the organisation predated the flag and the anthem and therefore the organisation was founded and developed in the absence of either.

Quote from: his holiness nb on January 16, 2008, 10:22:04 AM
Theres something creeping into peoples heads down here, maybe due to years of the Sun and the Star, that suggests that our flag and anthem is offensive and something to be ashamed of.

I wouldn't read either paper and am not ashamed of flag or anthem - that's not the issue.

Quote from: his holiness nb on January 16, 2008, 10:22:04 AM
People need to think for themselves and not what they think they are meant to think from a pc point of view, its ridiculous.

So if you happen to express an opinion that happens to also be PC, then it can't be thinking for yourself?!

maguire i appreciate that the association predated both flag and anthem. the association simply adopted the flag and anthem that governed the majority of its members and that of the irish nation and culture  that it set out to promote.

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 16, 2008, 09:20:13 AM
I sniff desperation on your behalf gnevin.

The tricolour can not be equated to the swastika, ever.

You totally missed the point.

Quote from: his holiness nb on January 16, 2008, 09:50:01 AM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 09:07:17 PM
And  of course the only emotion this image generates is Buddhism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Nazi_Swastika.svg

Gnevin, the swastika is a Hindu symbol, and while I was in a Hindu temple in India last year the swastika emblem was proudly shown in the artwork in the temple as its Hindu meaning is not offensive. If someone else hijacked the symbol for other means to offend people, thats not the fault of the Hindu people and it doesnt stop them using the symbol with pride.

The very same comparision can be used for the tricolour, just because the Unionist people decide they want to be offended by a flag designed to represent harmony between the "orange" and "green" peoples of out county, doent mean it is an offensive flag and shouldnt be a reason for hiding it away.

Comparing the flag with buring effigies of the queen is crazy, burining effegies is a gesture purely meant to offend.

No but when i used a swastika i am mindful that people maybe be confused with Nazi Germany and that while it's a ancient and revered symbol  which was high jacked . If i decide to fly a swastika outside my house many people are going to think i'm a Nazi.

If it offends people it must be offensive that is a simple logical analyse. Now it's not offensive to me or most people but the point here is the the Tricolour is not core to the association and removing it should be seen as a big gesture

Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on January 16, 2008, 12:06:25 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 06:31:27 PMAnd foresting  Irish identity and Culture  none of which are affect by the lack of the Flag . Which ironically enough hasn't flown at a Dublin home match for over 2 years if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, was looking for it last Saturday during the anthems, wtf???

Disrespectful to fly during dark  ;)

Quote from: Gnevin on January 16, 2008, 03:06:43 PM

Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on January 16, 2008, 12:06:25 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 06:31:27 PMAnd foresting  Irish identity and Culture  none of which are affect by the lack of the Flag . Which ironically enough hasn't flown at a Dublin home match for over 2 years if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, was looking for it last Saturday during the anthems, wtf???

Disrespectful to fly during dark  ;)

Well they had no problems flying the Dublin flag...  ;D

Seriously there must be a reasoning behind this??? I just presumed it was wrapped around de pole...

QuoteIf i decide to fly a swastika outside my house many people are going to think i'm a Nazi.

How about the Swastika laundry which operated in Dublin for years, were they part of the 1000 Jahre Reich?

I think GNevin is right Croí. The flag is supposed to be taken down at nightfall.

From the Department of the Taoiseach

15 The National Flag should be displayed in the open only between sunrise and sunset, except on the occasion of public meetings, processions, or funerals, when it may be displayed for the duration of such functions (Figure G).
Note: For military purposes, sunrise and sunset
are deemed to be:
Sunrise:
March to October 08:00 Hours
November to February 08:30 Hours
Sunset:
January and December 15:30 Hours
February and November 16:30 Hours
March and October 17:30 Hours
April 18:00 Hours
May and September 19:00 Hours
June to August 20:00 Hours

Quote from: AZOffaly on January 16, 2008, 03:39:28 PM
I think GNevin is right Croí. The flag is supposed to be taken down at nightfall.

I take ur point but sure it's a bit pointless turning to face the flag during de anthem with no flag there  ??? What about de other home Dublin matches in de last 2 years, surely they weren't all played under lights???

Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on January 16, 2008, 03:15:40 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 16, 2008, 03:06:43 PM

Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on January 16, 2008, 12:06:25 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 06:31:27 PMAnd foresting  Irish identity and Culture  none of which are affect by the lack of the Flag . Which ironically enough hasn't flown at a Dublin home match for over 2 years if I'm not mistaken.

Yeah, was looking for it last Saturday during the anthems, wtf???

Disrespectful to fly during dark  ;)

Well they had no problems flying the Dublin flag...  ;D

Seriously there must be a reasoning behind this??? I just presumed it was wrapped around de pole...

That is the reason the National flag should not be flown in the dark , hence why the Flag on the GPO doesn't fly at night or on any government buildings .

The national flag should be displayed in the open only between sunrise and sunset, except on the occasion of public meetings, processions, or funerals, when it may be displayed for the duration of such functions.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Ireland#Protocol

Of no one i know does the following

When the national anthem is played in the presence of the national flag, all present should face the national flag, stand to attention and salute it, remaining at the salute until the last note of the music.[43]


Ok the real reason is we are all  best brits  ;)

Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on January 16, 2008, 03:44:28 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on January 16, 2008, 03:39:28 PM
I think GNevin is right Croí. The flag is supposed to be taken down at nightfall.

I take ur point but sure it's a bit pointless turning to face the flag during de anthem with no flag there  ??? What about de other home Dublin matches in de last 2 years, surely they weren't all played under lights???

All the football ones where . Can anyone remember if the Tricolour was flown for the Dublin  V Tyrone game in Croker last year?

QuoteThe flag is supposed to be taken down at nightfall.

Indeed it is, someone should tell the Shinner "nationalists" who paste tattered flags up all over the place and businesses like Brown Thomas who are too lazy to take it down.

Quote from: Gnevin on January 16, 2008, 03:53:10 PM

Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on January 16, 2008, 03:44:28 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on January 16, 2008, 03:39:28 PM
I think GNevin is right Croí. The flag is supposed to be taken down at nightfall.

I take ur point but sure it's a bit pointless turning to face the flag during de anthem with no flag there  ??? What about de other home Dublin matches in de last 2 years, surely they weren't all played under lights???

All the football ones where . Can anyone remember if the Tricolour was flown for the Dublin  V Tyrone game in Croker last year?

I thought it was, certainly don't remember not seeing it when I turned around. So de flag has been flown for the home hurling matches then I take it???

Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on January 16, 2008, 03:44:28 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on January 16, 2008, 03:39:28 PM
I think GNevin is right Croí. The flag is supposed to be taken down at nightfall.

What about de other home Dublin matches in de last 2 years, surely they weren't all played under lights???

No. Kerry last year and Monaghan 2006 were on Sunday afternoon.

Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on January 16, 2008, 04:05:17 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 16, 2008, 03:53:10 PM

Quote from: Croí na hÉireann on January 16, 2008, 03:44:28 PM

Quote from: AZOffaly on January 16, 2008, 03:39:28 PM
I think GNevin is right Croí. The flag is supposed to be taken down at nightfall.

I take ur point but sure it's a bit pointless turning to face the flag during de anthem with no flag there  ??? What about de other home Dublin matches in de last 2 years, surely they weren't all played under lights???

All the football ones where . Can anyone remember if the Tricolour was flown for the Dublin  V Tyrone game in Croker last year?

I thought it was, certainly don't remember not seeing it when I turned around. So de flag has been flown for the home hurling matches then I take it???

Yes but the mostly take place on Sunday afternoon

gnevin you seem to be shamed of your history or something, what is the issue?

You seem to be terribly naive if you think a flag and an anthem will make a difference to unionists (despite their claims).  There is no flag or anthem at a vast majority of GAA games and I don't see many unionists attending these games and then refusing to go to ones where there will be a flag and anthem. 

What else would you like to change about the gaa to make it more acceptable to unionists?  Change the names of cups and grounds?  Are you ashamed of our history?

Btw I can't think of any sporting organisation where it's just about the sport. 

Crap, ignorant article aimed, I would assume, at an equally ignorant audience.

Anyone know anything about the author.

I read it all and will give a more substantive analysis when I get the chance.

However I do think that the topic of the article could easily have been "The Future of Sport in Northern Ireland" or indeed simply "The Future of Northern Ireland".

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 16, 2008, 06:22:58 PM
gnevin you seem to be shamed of your history or something, what is the issue?

You seem to be terribly naive if you think a flag and an anthem will make a difference to unionists (despite their claims).  There is no flag or anthem at a vast majority of GAA games and I don't see many unionists attending these games and then refusing to go to ones where there will be a flag and anthem. 

What else would you like to change about the gaa to make it more acceptable to unionists?  Change the names of cups and grounds?  Are you ashamed of our history?

Btw I can't think of any sporting organisation where it's just about the sport. 

Not ashamed of my History
I don't think it will make a difference to them all buy many be a few .
The flag isn't core too the association .

As Gnevin limits his contributions to attacking the views of others, particularly those he perceives to be northern nationalists, it would be helpful towards the advancement of this debate, if he were to state his own views of and vision for the G.A.A. in the twenty-first century. I suspect they would be very enlightening and reveal a distorted political and cultural view fed by the foriegn press which dominates media life in Ireland today. Go to it Gnevin, if you are man enough

Quote from: Pangurban on January 16, 2008, 07:21:30 PM
As Gnevin limits his contributions to attacking the views of others, particularly those he perceives to be northern nationalists, it would be helpful towards the advancement of this debate, if he were to state his own views of and vision for the G.A.A. in the twenty-first century. I suspect they would be very enlightening and reveal a distorted political and cultural view fed by the foriegn press which dominates media life in Ireland today. Go to it Gnevin, if you are man enough

I haven't attacked anyone and my contributions are not limited to any one topic !

I'd be happy with

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 05:47:59 PM

Quote from: Rav67 on January 15, 2008, 05:42:24 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 05:16:30 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 15, 2008, 11:39:41 AM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 12:44:08 AM

Quote from: Pangurban on January 14, 2008, 10:53:51 PM
To describe this contrived ill thought out piece as incisive, is demeaning language. From its very foundation the G.A.A. has always been clear and upfront re. its position regarding the National question. The promotion of an irish identity within a sovereign irish state, has always been a core value. Membership is open to all regardless of religion or politics. As in every field of life, people who disagree with the aims and objectives of any organisation will not subscribe to or join that organisation. That is the reasonable view of the Unionist people of N.I.   For the G.A.A. to pretend to be something other than what it is, an attempt to promote itself as a mere sporting organisation, to widen its appeal, would be dishonest, and insulting to the intelligence of both communities. You can only reach out to people by stating your position honestly and with integrity. A debate based on any other premise is a fraud.

Why cant the GAA become non political , just be a sporting organisation a kin to the IRFU ,NFL

Why should the GAA change its entire ethos?

I agree with Pangurban completely.

Etho's what a great undefinable term. Some times i think you lot where happier during the troubles

The parish structure and the progression of players through teams, the whole community helping out or being part of the club in some way, makes it different than those other sporting administraive bodies that you mention.  Because it is so central in community spirit and cohesion, this inevitably makes the GAA more that "just a sporting organisation."  This is someting to be proud of, not something to try and change. 

Fostering a national identity is something that has always been an aim of the GAA, as long as this continues to be done in a non-threatening and inclusive manner why should it pose a problem to anyone?

Yeah not a problem with that up to the second paragraph  Switch national identity to Irish cultural identity and it's 100% .

I'd like to see a International GAA not a Nationalist GAA

At first glance that appears to be a contradiction in terms, but i think i know what you mean. The G.A.A. at present does have an international dimension, in so far that units of the association exist in many countries, made up mainly of emigrants but containing some first and second generations who are citizens of the country in which they reside. If this what you seek as an international dimension to build on and expand, then for once we are in agreement, certainly better than seeking to develop the bastarised International Rules series. But what do you see within the association as at present constituted would prevent the development of an international dimension

Quote from: Pangurban on January 16, 2008, 08:29:34 PM
At first glance that appears to be a contradiction in terms, but i think i know what you mean. The G.A.A. at present does have an international dimension, in so far that units of the association exist in many countries, made up mainly of emigrants but containing some first and second generations who are citizens of the country in which they reside. If this what you seek as an international dimension to build on and expand, then for once we are in agreement, certainly better than seeking to develop the bastarised International Rules series. But what do you see within the association as at present constituted would prevent the development of an international dimension

I noting i suppose but i fail to see how "basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity of a 32 County Ireland" is relevant to a American who is interested in play football or hurling or how an Irish tricolour is relevant in China .

I rather the GAA reverted to it old aims of

   1. To foster and promote the native Irish pastimes.
   2. To open athletics to all social classes.
   3. To aid in the establishment of hurling and football clubs which would organise matches between counties.

Quote from: Gnevin on January 16, 2008, 09:13:46 PM

Quote from: Pangurban on January 16, 2008, 08:29:34 PM
At first glance that appears to be a contradiction in terms, but i think i know what you mean. The G.A.A. at present does have an international dimension, in so far that units of the association exist in many countries, made up mainly of emigrants but containing some first and second generations who are citizens of the country in which they reside. If this what you seek as an international dimension to build on and expand, then for once we are in agreement, certainly better than seeking to develop the bastarised International Rules series. But what do you see within the association as at present constituted would prevent the development of an international dimension

I noting i suppose but i fail to see how "basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity of a 32 County Ireland" is relevant to a American who is interested in play football or hurling or how an Irish tricolour is relevant in China .

I rather the GAA reverted to it old aims of

   1. To foster and promote the native Irish pastimes.
   2. To open athletics to all social classes.
   3. To aid in the establishment of hurling and football clubs which would organise matches between counties.

So basically, you want to change what the Association says it stands for to (possibly) please a few unionists?
Tell me this gnevin, what's your master-plan for getting teachers in state schools in the north to teach Protestant kids how to play Gaelic games?

Why doesnt your club offer to coach them in your area?
Or is it better to keep the games exclusionist? ;)

How do you know my club doesn't?  ;D

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 16, 2008, 09:38:26 PM
Tell me this gnevin, what's your master-plan for getting teachers in state schools in the north to teach Protestant kids how to play Gaelic games?

Or if we want to get even more off-topic, what about integrated education and everone having the opportunity to play GAA and Rugby at all schools?

How about Gaelic games in snooty Rugby Schools?
That Ban seems to be permanent. >:(

Quote from: Rossfan on January 16, 2008, 09:40:52 PM
Why doesnt your club offer to coach them in your area?
Or is it better to keep the games exclusionist? ;)

Oh that's it!  Take the "taig only" sign down from the gate when the kids are training.  There's an idea.
With people like you and gnevin the future of the GAA is in safe hands  ::)

Quote from: Maguire01 on January 16, 2008, 09:46:18 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 16, 2008, 09:38:26 PM
Tell me this gnevin, what's your master-plan for getting teachers in state schools in the north to teach Protestant kids how to play Gaelic games?

Or if we want to get even more off-topic, what about integrated education and everone having the opportunity to play GAA and Rugby at all schools?

Yeah, good luck with that idea.
Maybe we should stick with things that are possible.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 16, 2008, 09:50:16 PM

Quote from: Maguire01 on January 16, 2008, 09:46:18 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 16, 2008, 09:38:26 PM
Tell me this gnevin, what's your master-plan for getting teachers in state schools in the north to teach Protestant kids how to play Gaelic games?

Or if we want to get even more off-topic, what about integrated education and everone having the opportunity to play GAA and Rugby at all schools?

Yeah, good luck with that idea.
Maybe we should stick with things that are possible.

Well i was only being half serious (not that i don't favour the idea in principle) - in reply to the quote from the previous poster. That's debate's for another day.

Quote from: Maguire01 on January 16, 2008, 09:46:18 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 16, 2008, 09:38:26 PM
Tell me this gnevin, what's your master-plan for getting teachers in state schools in the north to teach Protestant kids how to play Gaelic games?

Or if we want to get even more off-topic, what about integrated education and everone having the opportunity to play GAA and Rugby at all schools?

Hmm, yeah... what about them?  :)

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 16, 2008, 09:50:16 PM

Take the "taig only" sign down from the gate when the kids are training.  There's an idea.
With people like you and gnevin the future of the GAA is in safe hands  ::)

Good to see you recognise that. At least we dont hang exclusionist signs on our gates. ;)
It's all colours and creeds (even Mayos) welcome at my little clubeen anyway - and we have Prods playing with us too - Irish ones what's more - you know like Dubhglas De hIde.  :)

It's a bit different in Ross than it is in the 6 counties.

oh yeah and  ;)  ???  8)
::)

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 16, 2008, 09:38:26 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 16, 2008, 09:13:46 PM

Quote from: Pangurban on January 16, 2008, 08:29:34 PM
At first glance that appears to be a contradiction in terms, but i think i know what you mean. The G.A.A. at present does have an international dimension, in so far that units of the association exist in many countries, made up mainly of emigrants but containing some first and second generations who are citizens of the country in which they reside. If this what you seek as an international dimension to build on and expand, then for once we are in agreement, certainly better than seeking to develop the bastarised International Rules series. But what do you see within the association as at present constituted would prevent the development of an international dimension

I noting i suppose but i fail to see how "basic aim the strengthening of the National Identity of a 32 County Ireland" is relevant to a American who is interested in play football or hurling or how an Irish tricolour is relevant in China .

I rather the GAA reverted to it old aims of

   1. To foster and promote the native Irish pastimes.
   2. To open athletics to all social classes.
   3. To aid in the establishment of hurling and football clubs which would organise matches between counties.

So basically, you want to change what the Association says it stands for to (possibly) please a few unionists?
Tell me this gnevin, what's your master-plan for getting teachers in state schools in the north to teach Protestant kids how to play Gaelic games?

No i would consider most of what I'd suggest to be minor wording changes or cosmetic changes where the core values remain unchanged .

Quote from: Rossfan on January 16, 2008, 09:49:33 PM
How about Gaelic games in snooty Rugby Schools?
That Ban seems to be permanent. >:(

Dublin's Hurling heartland is fast become south Dublin and the schools you mention above

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 16, 2008, 09:50:16 PM

Quote from: Rossfan on January 16, 2008, 09:40:52 PM
Why doesnt your club offer to coach them in your area?
Or is it better to keep the games exclusionist? ;)

Oh that's it!  Take the "taig only" sign down from the gate when the kids are training.  There's an idea.
With people like you and gnevin the future of the GAA is in safe hands  ::)

Quote from: Maguire01 on January 16, 2008, 09:46:18 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on January 16, 2008, 09:38:26 PM
Tell me this gnevin, what's your master-plan for getting teachers in state schools in the north to teach Protestant kids how to play Gaelic games?

Or if we want to get even more off-topic, what about integrated education and everone having the opportunity to play GAA and Rugby at all schools?

Yeah, good luck with that idea.
Maybe we should stick with things that are possible.

What exactly is it about what I'm say that your find so objectionable ?

Gnevin says he wants
  I rather the GAA reverted to it old aims of

   1. To foster and promote the native Irish pastimes.
   2. To open athletics to all social classes.
   3. To aid in the establishment of hurling and football clubs which would organise matches between counties
All this with the exception of Athletics which is now under the auspices of their governing ownbody, is being done at present. Would you identify the things which are not being done, or, the things being done which you think should not be done. Please dont reply with a litany of quotes from previous posts, state your case clearly and aid or understanding of your difficulties with association as at present constituted.

QuoteWhat exactly is it about what I'm say that your find so objectionable ?

I just think you're being pc for the sake of being pc and also very naive.

Quote from: Pangurban on January 16, 2008, 10:46:44 PM
Gnevin says he wants
  I rather the GAA reverted to it old aims of

   1. To foster and promote the native Irish pastimes.
   2. To open athletics to all social classes.
   3. To aid in the establishment of hurling and football clubs which would organise matches between counties
All this with the exception of Athletics which is now under the auspices of their governing ownbody, is being done at present. Would you identify the things which are not being done, or, the things being done which you think should not be done. Please dont reply with a litany of quotes from previous posts, state your case clearly and aid or understanding of your difficulties with association as at present constituted.

It's not what being done it's the baggage added  , the Nationalist baggage, the 32 county baggage, the politic baggage.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 16, 2008, 10:53:47 PM

QuoteWhat exactly is it about what I'm say that your find so objectionable ?

I just think you're being pc for the sake of being pc and also very naive.

No i was discussing the importance of symbols , GAA policy and values. While considerings how we could widen the appeal of the Association without undermining it's core values.

Quote from: Gnevin on January 16, 2008, 10:57:42 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 16, 2008, 10:53:47 PM

QuoteWhat exactly is it about what I'm say that your find so objectionable ?

I just think you're being pc for the sake of being pc and also very naive.

No i was discussing the importance of symbols , GAA policy and values. While considerings how we could widen the appeal of the Association without undermining it's core values.

Being PC for the sake of being PC. 
Do you think someone who was interested in our games would be put off by a tircolour or the national anthem?  and even if they were, do you not think they might attend the games where there would be no flag or anthem? 
How naive. 

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 16, 2008, 11:01:04 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 16, 2008, 10:57:42 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 16, 2008, 10:53:47 PM

QuoteWhat exactly is it about what I'm say that your find so objectionable ?

I just think you're being pc for the sake of being pc and also very naive.

No i was discussing the importance of symbols , GAA policy and values. While considerings how we could widen the appeal of the Association without undermining it's core values.

Being PC for the sake of being PC. 
Do you think someone who was interested in our games would be put off by a tircolour or the national anthem?  and even if they were, do you not think they might attend the games where there would be no flag or anthem? 
How naive. 

What if their problem is the 32 county stuff ?

Well the Northern lot threaten to stop playing for Ireland due to the tricolour and anthem

You accuse me of being naive, yet you believe their isn't one person who may have had an issue with the above?

If possible can you stop throwing labels around and maybe try discussing the issues ?

You've been told on this thread what the unionist problem is - they've been brought up to see the GAA as the IRA at play. 

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 16, 2008, 11:08:47 PM

You've been told on this thread what the unionist problem is - they've been brought up to see the GAA as the IRA at play. 

"Former Armagh player Jarlath Burns, in a revealing article in the now defunct Daily Ireland recalls going to watch an Orange parade in South Armagh, thinking he would blend in unrecognised, only to end up in lively conversation with some of the local brethren about his team's chances in that year's All-Ireland."
Clearly thats what everyone of them thinks alright

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 16, 2008, 11:08:47 PM

You've been told on this thread what the unionist problem is - they've been brought up to see the GAA as the IRA at play. 

That's a fairly sweeping statement - I've no doubt there are some Unionists that think like that, but I personally know of others that don't think like that

Quote from: Gnevin on January 16, 2008, 11:14:07 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 16, 2008, 11:08:47 PM

You've been told on this thread what the unionist problem is - they've been brought up to see the GAA as the IRA at play. 

"Former Armagh player Jarlath Burns, in a revealing article in the now defunct Daily Ireland recalls going to watch an Orange parade in South Armagh, thinking he would blend in unrecognised, only to end up in lively conversation with some of the local brethren about his team's chances in that year's All-Ireland."
Clearly thats what everyone of them thinks alright

And why haven't they joined clubs?

Hopefully things may change  now that Edwin Poots asked people to stop burning GAA and Orange halls before the Down - Donegal game tonight.  Did you ever think that you would see a DUP politician at a Dr McKenna cup match?

This is a load of shit!

In order for sport to be non political you would need to do away with all state sporting events (and that would only be a star). Non-political sport is non-existing.

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 12:41:43 AM

Quote from: inisceithleann on January 14, 2008, 08:38:17 PM
Although the Darren Graham incident was blown out of all proportion (there is no problem with sectarianism in Fermanagh football)

So he dreamed it all up? Clearly their was some level of sectarianism in Fermanagh football

Complete nonsence! If they where to call me big ears all day on the pitch would I have a genuine complaint of bullying? The abuse given to Oisin McConville at games is probably worse but it is not as news worthy as "sectarianism".  Why is this narrowed to Fermanagh? As this was a GAA match, these were GAA players and the GAA is Island wide surley it must prove all GAA people to be sectarian and not confined to fermanagh? Who drew the line at Fermanagh and why?

Quote from: Zapatista on January 17, 2008, 12:25:06 AM
This is a load of shit!

In order for sport to be non political you would need to do away with all state sporting events (and that would only be a star). Non-political sport is non-existing.

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 12:41:43 AM

Quote from: inisceithleann on January 14, 2008, 08:38:17 PM
Although the Darren Graham incident was blown out of all proportion (there is no problem with sectarianism in Fermanagh football)

So he dreamed it all up? Clearly their was some level of sectarianism in Fermanagh football

Complete nonsence! If they where to call me big ears all day on the pitch would I have a genuine complaint of bullying? The abuse given to Oisin McConville at games is probably worse but it is not as news worthy as "sectarianism".  Why is this narrowed to Fermanagh? As this was a GAA match, these were GAA players and the GAA is Island wide surley it must prove all GAA people to be sectarian and not confined to fermanagh? Who drew the line at Fermanagh and why?

We all know in this world we live in today their is abuse you can give and their is abuse you can't . No more than i can call a Traveller a Pikey on the GAA pitch . The issue isn't a fermanagh only issue but the Guy played for a Fermanagh club which I'm sure you already knew hense why they are more central to this  incident.

A sport can be non political and still have associations with the state it is based in

Quote from: Denn Forever on January 16, 2008, 11:44:48 PM
Hopefully things may change  now that Edwin Poots asked people to stop burning GAA and Orange halls before the Down - Donegal game tonight.  Did you ever think that you would see a DUP politician at a Dr McKenna cup match?

Clearly turned up to compile a report about the "IRA at Play"

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 16, 2008, 11:29:45 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 16, 2008, 11:14:07 PM

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 16, 2008, 11:08:47 PM

You've been told on this thread what the unionist problem is - they've been brought up to see the GAA as the IRA at play. 

"Former Armagh player Jarlath Burns, in a revealing article in the now defunct Daily Ireland recalls going to watch an Orange parade in South Armagh, thinking he would blend in unrecognised, only to end up in lively conversation with some of the local brethren about his team's chances in that year's All-Ireland."
Clearly thats what everyone of them thinks alright

And why haven't they joined clubs?

I would guess they have issues ,some real some imagined  with the GAA . Maybe someone for the Ulster Council could find out .

With all due respects Gnevin, you are just not making any coherent point. Your problem seems to be an aversion to Nationalism and its symbols. The G.A.A. is a national organisation which respects the Flag and Culture of the nation. It does not support any particular brand of nationalism, or political party within the nation state. You want to throw off all trappings of national identity, Flags,Anthems,etc.but you fail to realise that the G.A.A.s own flag is part of that identity, and is even perceived in some ill-informed and malicious circles as sectarian. Should we ditch that too. By emulating you and standing for nothing in a vain attempt to curry favour with our critics, what will be gained. I would be very open to any proposal which would widen the appeal of our association and strenghten it, but i have not heard one from you yet. In fact if we were to follow your advice, our critics would find us laughable,and scorn us for being so unprincipled and lickspittle that we are no longer worth critisizing, yet alone joining

Quote from: Gnevin on January 17, 2008, 01:00:01 AM

Quote from: Zapatista on January 17, 2008, 12:25:06 AM
This is a load of shit!

In order for sport to be non political you would need to do away with all state sporting events (and that would only be a star). Non-political sport is non-existing.

Quote from: Gnevin on January 15, 2008, 12:41:43 AM

Quote from: inisceithleann on January 14, 2008, 08:38:17 PM
Although the Darren Graham incident was blown out of all proportion (there is no problem with sectarianism in Fermanagh football)

So he dreamed it all up? Clearly their was some level of sectarianism in Fermanagh football

Complete nonsence! If they where to call me big ears all day on the pitch would I have a genuine complaint of bullying? The abuse given to Oisin McConville at games is probably worse but it is not as news worthy as "sectarianism".  Why is this narrowed to Fermanagh? As this was a GAA match, these were GAA players and the GAA is Island wide surley it must prove all GAA people to be sectarian and not confined to fermanagh? Who drew the line at Fermanagh and why?

We all know in this world we live in today their is abuse you can give and their is abuse you can't . No more than i can call a Traveller a Pikey on the GAA pitch . The issue isn't a fermanagh only issue but the Guy played for a Fermanagh club which I'm sure you already knew hense why they are more central to this  incident.

A sport can be non political and still have associations with the state it is based in

This is false.

He played for an Fermanagh club as evety bit as much as he played for an Ulster Club and an Irish Club.

Quote from: Gnevin on January 17, 2008, 01:00:46 AM

Quote from: Denn Forever on January 16, 2008, 11:44:48 PM
Hopefully things may change  now that Edwin Poots asked people to stop burning GAA and Orange halls before the Down - Donegal game tonight.  Did you ever think that you would see a DUP politician at a Dr McKenna cup match?

Clearly turned up to compile a report about the "IRA at Play"

Look gnevin, take it from me, i live in a town where unionists still have a fairly big majority. i can tell you now that many of them are brought up to believe the 'ira at play' tripe, its a sad fact. however, as i have stated already this is beginning to change and more and more unionists are taking an interest (well i know of loads who have had a keen interest all along but just didnt want to be seen to be interested.) with time they will start to join the clubs. taking away the irish flag will do nothing to help. for unionists to start joining clubs they need to appreciate the gaa for what it is, an IRISH sporting and cultural organisation.

and by the way, there are still a good few subscribers to the ira at play label. you only have to look at st comgall's gac in antrim town who wished to make a new field at dunsilly roundabout. opposed by local unionist councillor who publicly stated that he wasnt willing to sanction the building of another ira training camp. this happened around 18 months ago i think.

I had a strange dream this morning. I dreamt I heard a report on Morning Ireland that Edwin Poots, DUP Minister for Culture etc., had attended the Down-Donegal match last night. The strangest bit of the dream was where it said he came ten minutes late so that he wouldn't be there for the national anthem.

It was a very realistic dream and I would have sworn I was awake but for the fact that I know, having been assured by those here who know about these things (and who imply that they are the only ones qualified to speak on these issues) that this couldn't happen. They have assured me that flags and anthems are not really the issue and that removing them wouldn't have the slightest effect on unionist attitudes. So it can't be that a representative of uber-unionism was happy to attend a GAA match as long as he didn't have to hear the anthem.

So let's continue to fight the good fight and hold the line at all costs that what the GAA is really about is flags and anthems. That's the important part - much more important than the games. Especially to the young people of Europe, Asia and the world, when we go out to promote our flag and anthem, sorry, our games.

Not an inch.

[Edit] Of course, I'll be assured that I have been the dupe of a fancy piece of DUP propaganda. I suppose that's it. Edwin (and Nicky) have conspired to pull the wool over my stupid ould eyes.

(Edwin said it wasn't a bad game and at least "the local team" gave Donegal "a good hammering").

In fairness Hardy it would be political death for Poots to be seen standing for AnF no matter what the circumstances. That said I hazard a guess that you count on Abu Hamsa's left hand the number of times the tricolour was flown at BTW's home ground (the same for both of my own clubs) and AnF wouldn't have got too many airings either. It's just not practical. In the areas of the North where there are any numbers of protestants participating the flag and anthem are a non issue. What i'd like to see is a tweak to the rule allowing this to be at the discretion of the host club (which is the case now anyway).

BTW BTW (like what i did there) the only player at your club who was ever able to give me even half a contest (and don't be listening to any oul shite from yer Da saying he could  ;) ) was a sally.

Quote from: passedit on January 17, 2008, 11:59:07 AM
BTW BTW (like what i did there) the only player at your club who was ever able to give me even half a contest (and don't be listening to any oul shite from yer Da saying he could  ;) ) was a sally.

:D :D

oh we have had a good few from the other side of the community over the years. all decent players too from what i hear. has only been a couple since the mid 90's though.

Quote from: behind the wire on January 17, 2008, 12:13:55 PM

Quote from: passedit on January 17, 2008, 11:59:07 AM
BTW BTW (like what i did there) the only player at your club who was ever able to give me even half a contest (and don't be listening to any oul shite from yer Da saying he could  ;) ) was a sally.

:D :D

oh we have had a good few from the other side of the community over the years. all decent players too from what i hear. has only been a couple since the mid 90's though.

That's a pity BTW, i'd say that's a symptom of the growing 'loyalist' element in the town rather than any change in attitude in the club?

I don't have very strong opinions on this but I'd be more inclined towards the lads who support the retention of the flag and anthem. I would be slow to remove them because the vast majority of people who play and support GAA (now and in the future) have no problem with it. And I'm dubious about whether unionists have any real issue with them either, after all don't they stand for the Irish flag and anthem when in Lansdown rd. or Croke Park for the rugby and didn't they also do that at away games during the troubles?
       I'm all for inclusiveness and I think that we should do all in our power to make the Ulster Protestant community feel as welcome as possible. But it is a two way street and I think that if protestants started joining the GAA and contributing to the GAA in a meaningful way that it is then we should start addressing any issues they might have. Outside of the AI final I'd not be too concerned whether they play AnaF or not, GAA supporters are probably the least respectful of the national anthem anyway, but the flag should always be flown IMO. At least until a significant number of actual members don't want it to.

That's a pity BTW, i'd say that's a symptom of the growing 'loyalist' element in the town rather than any change in attitude in the club?
[/quote]

i dont know what it is, i think its just that they werent as good a players as the boys who played in the 80s/90s. none of them would have a grounding in underage football so i suppose its difficult for them to start. the boys from 80s/90s were just naturals, good at every sport they played.

as i said earlier in the thread things are starting to move forward. i know plenty of unionists who wouldnt miss the gaa games on tv on a sunday but just dont feel that they could go to watch a game live, either local or county level. i think this is more to do with how their own 'side' would view them rather than not being welcome.

more and more unionists are beginning to be more open about their interest in gaelic games though, which can only be a good thing. i know of a few who have started to appear at our home matches the odd time now that we have been able to raise the profile of the club a wee bit.

QuoteIt was a very realistic dream and I would have sworn I was awake but for the fact that I know, having been assured by those here who know about these things (and who imply that they are the only ones qualified to speak on these issues) that this couldn't happen. They have assured me that flags and anthems are not really the issue and that removing them wouldn't have the slightest effect on unionist attitudes. So it can't be that a representative of uber-unionism was happy to attend a GAA match as long as he didn't have to hear the anthem.

Hardy come down of the high horse a minute will you.
Poots went to the game, there was the anthem and the flag how can you argue from that that unionists are put off by the flag and anthem?
If he can go a few minutes late to avoid an anthem then why can't all unionists if they're so offended by it?  Do unionists attend GAA games where there's no flag and anthem and then refuse to go to those where there will be one?

Quote from: behind the wire on January 17, 2008, 09:39:50 AM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 17, 2008, 01:00:46 AM

Quote from: Denn Forever on January 16, 2008, 11:44:48 PM
Hopefully things may change  now that Edwin Poots asked people to stop burning GAA and Orange halls before the Down - Donegal game tonight.  Did you ever think that you would see a DUP politician at a Dr McKenna cup match?

Clearly turned up to compile a report about the "IRA at Play"

Look gnevin, take it from me, i live in a town where unionists still have a fairly big majority. i can tell you now that many of them are brought up to believe the 'ira at play' tripe, its a sad fact. however, as i have stated already this is beginning to change and more and more unionists are taking an interest (well i know of loads who have had a keen interest all along but just didnt want to be seen to be interested.) with time they will start to join the clubs. taking away the irish flag will do nothing to help. for unionists to start joining clubs they need to appreciate the gaa for what it is, an IRISH sporting and cultural organisation.

and by the way, there are still a good few subscribers to the ira at play label. you only have to look at st comgall's gac in antrim town who wished to make a new field at dunsilly roundabout. opposed by local unionist councillor who publicly stated that he wasnt willing to sanction the building of another ira training camp. this happened around 18 months ago i think.

I don't deny they are idiots who still think along the lines of the IRA at play what i was pointing out was the ridiculous nature of POG's

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 16, 2008, 11:08:47 PM

You've been told on this thread what the unionist problem is - they've been brought up to see the GAA as the IRA at play. 

Ie they all think that

Quote from: Pangurban on January 17, 2008, 02:09:11 AM
With all due respects Gnevin, you are just not making any coherent point. Your problem seems to be an aversion to Nationalism and its symbols. The G.A.A. is a national organisation which respects the Flag and Culture of the nation. It does not support any particular brand of nationalism, or political party within the nation state. You want to throw off all trappings of national identity, Flags,Anthems,etc.but you fail to realise that the G.A.A.s own flag is part of that identity, and is even perceived in some ill-informed and malicious circles as sectarian. Should we ditch that too. By emulating you and standing for nothing in a vain attempt to curry favour with our critics, what will be gained. I would be very open to any proposal which would widen the appeal of our association and strenghten it, but i have not heard one from you yet. In fact if we were to follow your advice, our critics would find us laughable,and scorn us for being so unprincipled and lickspittle that we are no longer worth critisizing, yet alone joining

I've made several proposal ,from removing the flag to rewording the aims of the association all of which you found so unpalatable that you rejected them out of hand.

I've not aversion to Nationalism is the right place. The GAA doesn't or should have a national identity its not a state it should however ever be promotioning Irish culture and games . 
Any of the changes i have suggested have not effect the core values of the association so i dont know how you claim be would end up standing for nothing.


Forget Unionist for just a minute  a American playing in China with a Swede and Chinese team mate. The  flag and the national anthem bring what to them?

Quote from: Zulu on January 17, 2008, 12:27:26 PM
I don't have very strong opinions on this but I'd be more inclined towards the lads who support the retention of the flag and anthem. I would be slow to remove them because the vast majority of people who play and support GAA (now and in the future) have no problem with it. And I'm dubious about whether unionists have any real issue with them either, after all don't they stand for the Irish flag and anthem when in Lansdown rd. or Croke Park for the rugby and didn't they also do that at away games during the troubles?
        I'm all for inclusiveness and I think that we should do all in our power to make the Ulster Protestant community feel as welcome as possible. But it is a two way street and I think that if protestants started joining the GAA and contributing to the GAA in a meaningful way that it is then we should start addressing any issues they might have. Outside of the AI final I'd not be too concerned whether they play AnaF or not, GAA supporters are probably the least respectful of the national anthem anyway, but the flag should always be flown IMO. At least until a significant number of actual members don't want it to.

Yes after they threaten to walk form their own association and team . Until they got an "All-Ireland" flag and anthem . I believe they stand like i stand for the British/American/French/Whatever Anthem when it's play out of respect.
You  claim to want to do all in our power yet will not take a single step?
I take it significant would be a majority  which will never happen .

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 17, 2008, 01:44:10 PM

QuoteIt was a very realistic dream and I would have sworn I was awake but for the fact that I know, having been assured by those here who know about these things (and who imply that they are the only ones qualified to speak on these issues) that this couldn't happen. They have assured me that flags and anthems are not really the issue and that removing them wouldn't have the slightest effect on unionist attitudes. So it can't be that a representative of uber-unionism was happy to attend a GAA match as long as he didn't have to hear the anthem.

Hardy come down of the high horse a minute will you.
Poots went to the game, there was the anthem and the flag how can you argue from that that unionists are put off by the flag and anthem?
If he can go a few minutes late to avoid an anthem then why can't all unionists if they're so offended by it?  Do unionists attend GAA games where there's no flag and anthem and then refuse to go to those where there will be one?

POG are you familiar with the Irish Rugby team ?
Are you familiar with Ireland's call?
Are you familiar with the reasons for playing Ireland's call?
Yes or no answers please

QuoteYes after they threaten to walk form their own association and team . Until they got an "All-Ireland" flag and anthem . I believe they stand like i stand for the British/American/French/Whatever Anthem when it's play out of respect.
You  claim to want to do all in our power yet will not take a single step?
I take it significant would be a majority  which will never happen .

Gnevin, isn't the ticolour flown and AnaF played at all home internationals? There must be a few thousand unionists at any home international yet they stand for the anthem and attend the game even though the tricolour flies. Why can they do it for rugby matches yet can't do it for GAA games, is it possible that some are just using it as stick to beat the GAA with?
               The only reason I'd be reticent about removing the flag and/or anthem is that we could be removing something that many currently in the GAA would be upset about, only to appease some of those in a community that probably wouldn't join in any great numbers anyway. Some protestants in the North play and attend GAA games already, I'd be in favour of encouraging more of those within the protestant community who aren't too concerned with flags and anthems to play first. I won't speak for the lads in Ulster, they can do that for themselves but I reckon many of them see the flag and anthem as representing their national identity in a way we can't. I couldn't currently support anything that would go against the wishes of staunch GAA members to placate a community that might just turn around and say 'well that's a first step but while clubs are named after terrorists I couldn't join....etc."
                       Like I say we should do things to encourage protestants to join but they must also make a leap of faith and begin to engage the GAA on a more active level before we should start removing our national flag and anthem from our national games

Quote from: Zulu on January 17, 2008, 03:22:15 PM

QuoteYes after they threaten to walk form their own association and team . Until they got an "All-Ireland" flag and anthem . I believe they stand like i stand for the British/American/French/Whatever Anthem when it's play out of respect.
You  claim to want to do all in our power yet will not take a single step?
I take it significant would be a majority  which will never happen .

Gnevin, isn't the ticolour flown and AnaF played at all home internationals? There must be a few thousand unionists at any home international yet they stand for the anthem and attend the game even though the tricolour flies. Why can they do it for rugby matches yet can't do it for GAA games, is it possible that some are just using it as stick to beat the GAA with?
                The only reason I'd be reticent about removing the flag and/or anthem is that we could be removing something that many currently in the GAA would be upset about, only to appease some of those in a community that probably wouldn't join in any great numbers anyway. Some protestants in the North play and attend GAA games already, I'd be in favour of encouraging more of those within the protestant community who aren't too concerned with flags and anthems to play first. I won't speak for the lads in Ulster, they can do that for themselves but I reckon many of them see the flag and anthem as representing their national identity in a way we can't. I couldn't currently support anything that would go against the wishes of staunch GAA members to placate a community that might just turn around and say 'well that's a first step but while clubs are named after terrorists I couldn't join....etc."
                        Like I say we should do things to encourage protestants to join but they must also make a leap of faith and begin to engage the GAA on a more active level before we should start removing our national flag and anthem from our national games

I don't know what the issues are and how the unionist community think . It's clear from past information that the Flag and Anthem are an issue. THe IRFU seem to have very cleverly managed to sell a have baked idea to both sides where no one is really happy but sure it better than nothing is the prevailing train of though for what i can gather from the Rugby crowd. 

As I've said before these are only idea's i am throwing out and have all be shot down with in moments  . Apparently Poots has raised a few issues with the GAA and the president last night . I would love to know what they were .

Has the GAA/Ulster Council ever found out what the Unionist community's issues really are?

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 17, 2008, 01:44:10 PM
Hardy come down of the high horse a minute will you.
Poots went to the game, there was the anthem and the flag how can you argue from that that unionists are put off by the flag and anthem?
If he can go a few minutes late to avoid an anthem then why can't all unionists if they're so offended by it?  Do unionists attend GAA games where there's no flag and anthem and then refuse to go to those where there will be one?

Pints – I always find it funny when people who disagree with another's opinion accuse them of being on a high horse. Is it your crash diet that has you hallucinating about imaginary animals? 

I thought my point was plain enough – just pointing out an anomaly between what we've been repeatedly told here and what took place last night.

Anyway – as someone who doesn't give a damn about flags or anthems one way or another, I need help in understanding what exactly they are for, in the context, say, of a football match in Newry or a hurling game in Thurles? Can anyone explain, by way of educating my vote on the issue, should it ever arise?

And also, can they help me to understand how the Irish anthem and flag played before matches in, say, Serbia will help to promote football and hurling and even handball* to young Serbians?

* Why does nobody give a damn about rounders? I mean, it's there in the GAA's constitution – one of the GAA's main reasons for existence is to "promote Rounders". When did anyone here last see, notice or hear tell of the GAA promoting rounders? Nobody seems to give a curse about the GAA completely abdicating its responsibility to this game and blatantly flouting its own constitution in doing so. Yet dare anyone suggest moving an inch on the flag or anthem. It puzzles me.

Poots stated today the GAA had come along way espicially opening Croke Park and the playing of the "British Anthem for the British,sorry English Rugby team", and in the same breath described how he turned up late to miss AnF. What wonderful hypocrisy. Just who is it that needs to change..

Quote from: An Fear Rua on January 17, 2008, 04:51:54 PM
Poots stated today the GAA had come along way espicially opening Croke Park and the playing of the "British Anthem for the British,sorry English Rugby team", and in the same breath described how he turned up late to miss AnF. What wonderful hypocrisy. Just who is it that needs to change..

Where did you hear this quote ?



Would any of you mind if the NFL set up here and refused to fly the Irish flag but instead played The American anthem and flew the Americian flag?

Quote from: Gnevin on January 17, 2008, 05:35:47 PM

Quote from: An Fear Rua on January 17, 2008, 04:51:54 PM
Poots stated today the GAA had come along way espicially opening Croke Park and the playing of the "British Anthem for the British,sorry English Rugby team", and in the same breath described how he turned up late to miss AnF. What wonderful hypocrisy. Just who is it that needs to change..

Where did you hear this quote ?



Would any of you mind if the NFL set up here and refused to fly the Irish flag but instead played The American anthem and flew the Americian flag?

GMU & Stephen Nolan radio show

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/ulster/aod.shtml?ulster/gmu_thu (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/ulster/aod.shtml?ulster/gmu_thu)
1 hr 48 mins into the show.

Navigate to Stephen Nolans show, and listen 1hr 5 mins into it
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/ulster/aod.shtml?ulster/nolan_thu (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/ulster/aod.shtml?ulster/nolan_thu)

Quote from: An Fear Rua on January 17, 2008, 05:44:29 PM

Quote from: Gnevin on January 17, 2008, 05:35:47 PM

Quote from: An Fear Rua on January 17, 2008, 04:51:54 PM
Poots stated today the GAA had come along way espicially opening Croke Park and the playing of the "British Anthem for the British,sorry English Rugby team", and in the same breath described how he turned up late to miss AnF. What wonderful hypocrisy. Just who is it that needs to change..

Where did you hear this quote ?



Would any of you mind if the NFL set up here and refused to fly the Irish flag but instead played The American anthem and flew the Americian flag?

GMU & Stephen Nolan radio show

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/ulster/aod.shtml?ulster/gmu_thu (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/ulster/aod.shtml?ulster/gmu_thu)
1 hr 48 mins into the show.

Navigate to Stephen Nolans show, and listen 1hr 5 mins into it
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/ulster/aod.shtml?ulster/nolan_thu (http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/ulster/aod.shtml?ulster/nolan_thu)

So would you attend King bill Park?
Well POG their is a Unionist who has an issue with the anthem

Hardy

QuotePints – I always find it funny when people who disagree with another's opinion accuse them of being on a high horse. Is it your crash diet that has you hallucinating about imaginary animals?

No, giant sausages actually. 
However, I didn't accuse anyone else of being on a high horse, you have a tendancy to get on one if you disagree with someone especially in these discussions and you come across as condesending and patronising.  Maybe you don't even know you're doing it.

Quote
Anyway – as someone who doesn't give a damn about flags or anthems one way or another, I need help
understanding what exactly they are for, in the context, say, of a football match in Newry or a hurling game in Thurles? Can anyone explain, by way of educating my vote on the issue, should it ever arise?

I don't really care about flags or anthems either.  I don't care if there is a crib in the local shopping centre at Christmas time but that doesn't mean I can't object when people want to remove it on the off chance it might offend someone. 

You're point about Poots actually backs up our point!  There we have a unionist who has attended a GAA game, didn't like the idea of the national anthem but arrived a few minutes late in order to skip it and enjoy the game,  what's the big deal?

gnevin

Quote
Would any of you mind if the NFL set up here and refused to fly the Irish flag but instead played The American anthem and flew the Americian flag?

I couldn't care less, in fact it would be understandable enough, they are an American organisation, it is an American sport.
Would you care?

QuoteSo would you attend King bill Park?
Well POG their is a Unionist who has an issue with the anthem

I can't listen to that link but I assume it's Poots that has the problem?  See the answer above.
As for attending King Bill park, yes of course I would, why wouldn't I?  If a community set up a club and called it after something or someone close to their hearts than so what?  If a club was formed tomorrow called Michael Stone GFC, played in King Billy park and wore red white and blue I'd say fair play!  Also, if they then had a problem with the flag and anthem, I'd listen.  That brings me on to your rugby point, rugby is very different to the GAA in that they have members, clubs etc from both sides of the community and the change came to suit unionists WITHIN their organisation not unionists who might, but probably wont, join them if they changed.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on January 17, 2008, 07:13:12 PM
I didn't accuse anyone else of being on a high horse, you have a tendancy to get on one if you disagree with someone especially in these discussions and you come across as condesending and patronising.  Maybe you don't even know you're doing it.

Sorry, pints, but I can't be responsible for your perceptions (though what the height of my imaginary horse has to do with the argument, I have no idea). It's only possible to be condescending and patronising to someone you see as inferior. I don't see you as inferior, nor would I be arrogant enough to believe it about anyone, so from my point of view I can't be condescending to you or patronising you. The problem must be at your end. (How come nobody is ever on a high horse if they're losing the argument?).

Anyway – are you or anyone going to put me right about the importance of flags and anthems and what they do for the GAA and how they promote the games and what we would be losing if we never bothered again playing a bad piece of music or flying an ould rag at the top of a pole and why there's more excitement about them here than about the neglect of rounders? OK, only joking about rounders.

Anyone could be forgiven for thinking that, to some people (not you), their importance is all to do with the fact that they seem to annoy themmuns and therefore must be kept at all costs. You'd get that impression from the argument used by some here that the very reason we mustn't contemplate any compromise on these sacred symbols is because it's what the unionists ask for. That would be conceding a small victory and we couldn't have that. Not an inch.

Am I doing it again?

QuoteSorry, pints, but I can't be responsible for your perceptions (though what the height of my imaginary horse has to do with the argument, I have no idea). It's only possible to be condescending and patronising to someone you see as inferior. I don't see you as inferior, nor would I be arrogant enough to believe it about anyone, so from my point of view I can't be condescending to you or patronising you. The problem must be at your end. (How come nobody is ever on a high horse if they're losing the argument?).

:D Good one.

QuoteAnyway – are you or anyone going to put me right about the importance of flags and anthems and what they do for the GAA and how they promote the games and what we would be losing if we never bothered again playing a bad piece of music or flying an ould rag at the top of a pole and why there's more excitement about them here than about the neglect of rounders? OK, only joking about rounders.

I said above I feel no strong attachment to the flag or anthem before games but it doesn't mean we should get rid of them for jumped up silly PC reasons. 

The fact that so much publicity is generated by the fact that a sports minister attends a sporting event, says a lot about the distorted thinking which prevails in our society. Its his job folks, paid for by the taxpayers, which includes the G.A.A. fraternity. Rather than praising his BRAVE initiative, we should be asking him why it took so long. His calculated snub of the anthem, was understandable and in no way offensive. I find hardys belittling of flags and anthems understandable but offensive, as he lacks Mr.Poots justification. Hardy and Gnevin belong to the Ireland that has lost all sense of itself as a Nation with a history, culture and society worthy of respect. Therefore any symbols of these things are worthless and meaningless. Its all right for other Nations and sporting bodies to flout there symbols, buts thats not for the likes of us bogmen. The sad thing is that they have convinced me they are right. When i look at the state of the socirty we have created and the values we propound in Ireland today, and recognise that those values represent the view of the majority, then symbols truly are meaningless. Sure we might just as well fly the Union Jack at G.A.A. matches, and play The Queen for all the difference it would make.  Modern Irelands origins are the playing fields of Eton, its Capital the rugger playing garrison city of Limerick, and Hardy,Gnevin etc. its loyal citizens.

Quote from: Pangurban on January 17, 2008, 09:01:54 PM
The fact that so much publicity is generated by the fact that a sports minister attends a sporting event, says a lot about the distorted thinking which prevails in our society. Its his job folks, paid for by the taxpayers, which includes the G.A.A. fraternity. Rather than praising his BRAVE initiative, we should be asking him why it took so long. His calculated snub of the anthem, was understandable and in no way offensive. I find hardys belittling of flags and anthems understandable but offensive, as he lacks Mr.Poots justification. Hardy and Gnevin belong to the Ireland that has lost all sense of itself as a Nation with a history, culture and society worthy of respect. Therefore any symbols of these things are worthless and meaningless. Its all right for other Nations and sporting bodies to flout there symbols, buts thats not for the likes of us bogmen. The sad thing is that they have convinced me they are right. When i look at the state of the socirty we have created and the values we propound in Ireland today, and recognise that those values represent the view of the majority, then symbols truly are meaningless. Sure we might just as well fly the Union Jack at G.A.A. matches, and play The Queen for all the difference it would make.  Modern Irelands origins are the playing fields of Eton, its Capital the rugger playing garrison city of Limerick, and Hardy,Gnevin etc. its loyal citizens.

My sense of Nation isn't defined solely by a flag at a GAA game ,maybe yours it and that's why your so against even the discussion about removing it.

Pangurban what county are you from?

Pangurban - now there's patronisation (?) and condescension writ large. Thank you for your assessment of my character, but who the hell do you think you are to pronounce upon the extent of my respect for my nation and culture? And where did I suggest that it's only the Irish flag and anthem that I decline to revere and that it's OK for other nations to do it but not us?  You did not find that in anything I wrote, so why do you choose to distort what I said?

I don't need to stare in awed reverence at a rag on a pole or endure an atrociously bad piece of music in order to demonstrate my respect for my nation and culture. In fact I don't feel the need to demonstrate them at all. I prefer to live them. It's my belief that flags and anthems (of ALL nations) exist to emphasise our differences and to provide points of differentiation and even conflict. People seldom wave flags in front of their own people. It's no different to the psychology of the orange march in my mind - flags are for flaunting in front of our adversaries and I don't think the world would be any worse off if we lost all the anthems and flags tomorrow. And if you can contrive to be offended by my disrespect for a rag on a pole, I don't give a damn but I do wonder about which of us it is whose values need a review.

I agree. A very articulate post.

Quote from: Aristotle Flynn on January 17, 2008, 10:46:25 PM
I agree. A very articulate post.

With Hardy?

Quote from: Pangurban on January 17, 2008, 09:01:54 PM
The fact that so much publicity is generated by the fact that a sports minister attends a sporting event, says a lot about the distorted thinking which prevails in our society. Its his job folks, paid for by the taxpayers, which includes the G.A.A. fraternity. Rather than praising his BRAVE initiative, we should be asking him why it took so long. His calculated snub of the anthem, was understandable and in no way offensive. I find hardys belittling of flags and anthems understandable but offensive, as he lacks Mr.Poots justification. Hardy and Gnevin belong to the Ireland that has lost all sense of itself as a Nation with a history, culture and society worthy of respect. Therefore any symbols of these things are worthless and meaningless. Its all right for other Nations and sporting bodies to flout there symbols, buts thats not for the likes of us bogmen. The sad thing is that they have convinced me they are right. When i look at the state of the socirty we have created and the values we propound in Ireland today, and recognise that those values represent the view of the majority, then symbols truly are meaningless. Sure we might just as well fly the Union Jack at G.A.A. matches, and play The Queen for all the difference it would make.  Modern Irelands origins are the playing fields of Eton, its Capital the rugger playing garrison city of Limerick, and Hardy,Gnevin etc. its loyal citizens.

Biggest load of rubbish I've read on here in a long time (and that's some going considering I've just read Peter Canavans article on the other board)

Hardy, i made no comment nor passed no judgement on your character. I referred to your mindset re. symbols and commented that it was representative of the majority in Ireland today. Nothing has any intrinsic value, why bother, anything perceived to be remotely divisive should be jettisoned. Political correctness is the order of the day. Its sad when a nations Flag and Anthem are included in those things which are divisive, but so be it. In corporate Ireland,where it is every Man for himself, there is no need for a a collective conscience. I concede your point, so lets all melt gracefully into that amorpheous collection of peoples which make up Europe and the world and abandon our silly pretensions of nationhood and cultural identity.

Pangurban,

I have never read something as insightful as your last few posts .I am so encouraged by them that we have some people like yourselves left .
We may differ on the inner circle but my  God man you are perceptive about how we have lost all sense of pride in our culture , Munster rugby is now their soul but thankfully not yours or mine.
It brings me back to Kavanagh and the provincial and the parochial.

Quote from: thegael on January 18, 2008, 01:16:58 AM
Pangurban,

I have never read something as insightful as your last few posts .I am so encouraged by them that we have some people like yourselves left .
We may differ on the inner circle but my  God man you are perceptive about how we have lost all sense of pride in our culture , Munster rugby is now their soul but thankfully not yours or mine.
It brings me back to Kavanagh and the provincial and the parochial.

Munster Rugby what the f**k are you talking about seriously what?

Quote from: Pangurban on January 18, 2008, 12:29:02 AM
Political correctness is the order of the day. Its sad when a nations Flag and Anthem are included in those things which are divisive,

Hense why the Union Jack and God save the queen where praised by Sinn Fein for being such  inclusive things. A of course was nothing  more inclusive than
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Flag_of_South_Africa_1928-1994.svg

Limerick city has always been a bastion of rugby, same as Sligo for soccer - this isn't something that has slowly crept up on us over the past 30 years and most certainly does not indicate a decay in our collective sense of cultural identity.

My own opinion is that the GAA and it's membership has done a terrible job in respecting the anthem and the flag at big inter county days and Junior B County finals, to the extent it would be better off that it was left out altogether. Nothing so embarrassing as standing for the anthem in Croke Park or Kiltimagh and the crowd erupts half way through it. There have been some half hearted attempts (Fogra - please respect the National Anthem etc) but there's not much you can do about it really when there are a handful/couple of hundered/couple of thousand (delete as applicable) ignorant gobshites with a few pints in them that insist on behaving like this, but this again is nothing new. Couple this with poor PA systems in most grounds or some whiny young wan warbling the anthem in the wrong key, I feel the whole charade cheapens the anthem terribly. Like the country nightclubs that used to play the anthem as the last song of the night, do they still do that?

Personally I think the Nationalism in the GAA is sickening. I only stand for the anthem and face the flag at games because it is easier to rather than listen to some hypocrite give out to me for not doing so. I also believe this sickening Nationalism is one of the reasons the GAA have been so successful and would not like to see it removed just yet. We must accept that many of the GAA's current support is strongly in favour of the games for the same reason many oppose the games.

Quote from: Pangurban on January 18, 2008, 12:29:02 AM
Hardy, i made no comment nor passed no judgement on your character. I referred to your mindset re. symbols and commented that it was representative of the majority in Ireland today. Nothing has any intrinsic value, why bother, anything perceived to be remotely divisive should be jettisoned. Political correctness is the order of the day. Its sad when a nations Flag and Anthem are included in those things which are divisive, but so be it. In corporate Ireland,where it is every Man for himself, there is no need for a a collective conscience. I concede your point, so lets all melt gracefully into that amorpheous collection of peoples which make up Europe and the world and abandon our silly pretensions of nationhood and cultural identity.

There you go again, patrtonising me and filtering my statements through your distortion kit until they look like what you want to believe, rather than what I said. Thus my disdain for flag-waving as a proxy for respect gets bent into "nothing has any intrinsic value". My suggestion that the world might be a  better place without people waving their particular flag in front of whomever they think it will most annoy warps, in the Pangurban manual of interpretation, into "political correctness is the order of the day".

If you've read a selection of my posts here for more than ten years, you'll have a fair idea of my opinions on subjects such as political correctness, the global consumer culture, the gradual erosion of cultural differences and, not least, the part the GAA has to play in the fight against these influences. Yet you choose to depict me as an example of "corporate Ireland,where it is every Man for himself", where  "there is no need for a collective conscience" because I state that I have no need to revere a flag or a tune as an expression of my cultural identity. Why?

Unlike Hardy, I love our flag and anthem, this topic is something close to my heart as I would try to promote social inclusion as much as I can, and I am very proud of my past, my culture and heritage. Part of me says, the magic word in social inclusion is tolerance, Unionists should tolerate Nationalist cultural difference and vice versa.

Another part of me thinks, is it right for a sporting organisation to promote a political viewpoint? The idea of a United Ireland is very much a Nationalist ideal.

We know that (as much as we hate to admit it), Northern Ireland is part of the UK, Amhrain Na bhFiann is the anthem of the ROI, the tri-colour is the flag of the ROI, and not Northern Ireland. Unionists will undoubtedly feel offended by the playing of the Anthem,  just as I am when people include All of Ireland in the UK,  as it fails to acknowledge the existence of Northern Ireland.

Much like the Aims of the GAA, (32-county part) it shuns the idea of an existence of a country they are proud of. They perhaps wonder why the people who want them to accept or tolerate the Flag and Anthem, wont tolerate Unionist culture, ie parades etc.......(Im not equating GAA with OO, Im trying to state a possible Unionist point of view)

I have friends who, are from a Unionist background, not Orange Order but would be sooner found in Winsor Park than at a McKenna cup match. I have asked them about the GAA, and they kinda shrugged and gave a kinda indefinate answer. while one of them was excited about Donegal winning the league last year, (he's from Antrim but has reletives in Donegal). The other only spoke to me a bout GAA when the Gerard Cavlan thing happened.

Part of it, I reckon comes from within the Unionist community. There may be a stigma attached to someone who might be seen attending GAA matches. Another is perhaps they simply dont like/trust those on the other side. Not yet anyway.

But for me, my mind isnt made up yet. Do we wait for them to accept us as we are, or do we make a compromise and swallow our pride for the sake of social inclusion?

Good post, juice.

Quote from: thejuice on January 18, 2008, 11:10:06 AM
I am very proud of my past, my culture and heritage.

The idea of a United Ireland is very much a Nationalist ideal.

We shouldn't be proud of something we didn't do. If we can preserve it and improve on it for the right reasons it should makes us proud, but there is no pride in inheriting something.

The idea of remaining within the Union and maintaining British identity is very much a Nationalist ideal too.

Quote from: Zapatista on January 18, 2008, 11:17:57 AM

Quote from: thejuice on January 18, 2008, 11:10:06 AM
I am very proud of my past, my culture and heritage.

The idea of a United Ireland is very much a Nationalist ideal.

We shouldn't be proud of something we didn't do. If we can preserve it and improve on it for the right reasons it should makes us proud, but there is no pride in inheriting something.

The idea of remaining within the Union and maintaining British identity is very much a Nationalist ideal too.

Please elaborate

On what? Please elaborate.

Quote from: Zapatista on January 18, 2008, 03:47:01 PM
On what? Please elaborate.

Your Post

Well, here goes.

We are not responsible for our culture or heritage. I can't see how anyone can claim pride in their heritage. It's akin to saying Germans should inherit shame.

Are you proud of the civil war fought here? If so who are you proud off? If you are for example proud of the pro-treaty lot are you equally shamed of the anti-treaty lot? Maybe you are proud nor shamed of either. If so, is up to you what you inherit? Pick and choose?

Culture is an evolutionary process and nobody can claim it as an action to be proud of.

Are Unionist non-Nationals? If someone is British and are happy to be so then they are British Nationals (Nationalists) I f someone is from Northern Ireland and happy about it the they are Northern Irish Nationals (Nationalists).

I am in full support of a united Ireland but am not a Nationalist.

Quote from: Zapatista on January 18, 2008, 05:06:26 PM
Culture is an evolutionary process and nobody can claim it as an action to be proud of.

Its not an action to be proud of, but its quite reasonable to be proud of being part of a culture.

Quote from: his holiness nb on January 18, 2008, 05:10:20 PM

Quote from: Zapatista on January 18, 2008, 05:06:26 PM
Culture is an evolutionary process and nobody can claim it as an action to be proud of.

Its not an action to be proud of, but its quite reasonable to be proud of being part of a culture.

Of course you can have pride in the past and your culture, its your own ancestors who helped shape it. 

I enjoy the anthem as part of the whole theatre of big match days, but I personally think we should just play it before finals.

I'd agree with that. It would add to the atmosphere on final day.

I agree about the embarrassing renditions of the anthem.

Let's say that some people object to women's football, on the basis that they are a crowd of Jezebels flaunting their legs and so forth. Ought we ensure that ladies play in Burkas to show respect for their culture and to better attract this class of person to the GAA? 

No smart aleck comments about ladies football please.

Hardy i am sorry if i appeared to misrepresent your views, that was not my intention. What you fail to understand is that we are approaching this from very different perspectives. I am asserting the value of symbols as educational tools, aids to awareness of who we are, and visible transmitters of culture and identity to our youth. Where you live in the so called free part of Ireland, symbols are not so important, as other transmitters of Nationality and Culture exist. They are nevertheless worthy of more respect than you appear to accord them. Where i live, our youth are surrounded day and daily by symbols of a different nationality and culture, with little or nothing they can identify as having any relevance to them. The outwards expressions of Nationality which they encounter within the G.A.A., acts as an anti-dote, giving them a sense of their own self-worth and identity., not to mention pride in and respect for their own country. A pride and respect which is glaringly lacking in the Republic today, but thats a different debate.

(http://www.sluggerotoole.com/images/ian_p.jpg)


Can't you just picture himself and some oul lad from Kerry roaring abuse at each other up in the premium section?

Quote from: Rav67 on January 18, 2008, 06:02:27 PM


Of course you can have pride in the past and your culture, its your own ancestors who helped shape it. 

Should the British be proud of all the tea they drink and currys they eat?

Quote from: Zapatista on January 19, 2008, 12:49:42 AM

Quote from: Rav67 on January 18, 2008, 06:02:27 PM


Of course you can have pride in the past and your culture, its your own ancestors who helped shape it. 

Should the British be proud of all the tea they drink and currys they eat?

I don't quite get your point.  I never said that you have to be proud of everything that has ever been done in the name of your county, I just said that it is possible to be proud.  The same way that you might be proud of your granda in his achievements or how he lived his life, despite this not being something that you influenced in any way.

I wouldn't concider my Granda as an ancestor. My point is do we also inherit the bad things or ancestors done? For example should the USA citizens be proud of their ancestors achievements and ignore that the same ancestors where involved in slavery?

Another example is the British celebrating 100years of outlawing slavery. It's something they're very proud of. I think if they are going to be anything about it they should be ashamed. Being proud of it is the same as bullying someone everyday at work and being proud of stopping rather than ashamed of doing it in the first place.

We are in denial and living a big lie by thinking we are great and have a great history when the truth is we just believe what we want to and ignore the rest. 

Pangurban - that's a reasonable point of view and a substantial step back from associating me with the worst values of corporate Ireland, etc. We can have a debate about the importance of flags and anthems as symbols. I think we both agree on their importance. Where we have diametrically opposing points of view is on whether their influence tends to be positive or negative. I've stated my view (well, more a feeling than a reasoned view, to be as honest as I can) on that.

Hardy i accept that you do not espouse the worst values of corporate Ireland, but your careless use of language plays into the Hands of those who do e.g. your use of the phrase..a rag on a Pole. Language is a powerful tool,and its careless use can be very destructive. Surely any nations Flag  merits a better description. We both know how symbols can be manipulated and used negatively,  particularly there use to assert supremacy or division. Hence the need to teach the proper values and importance of what they represent. We wont do that by decrying there use in a proper context. I believe a Gaelic Football Stadium, populated by Gaels is a fitting context, which should provide no offence to anyone.

Fair enough. I just can't find it in me to revere pieces of cloth or passages of music, whatever they are meant to symbolise. I used the colourful language, not to offend, but to remind people what exactly it is that they are getting excited about and if they are offended by my calling names to a piece of cloth, I wonder.