A Different Ball Game - The Future of the GAA in Northern Ireland

[behind the wire]

That's a pity BTW, i'd say that's a symptom of the growing 'loyalist' element in the town rather than any change in attitude in the club?
[/quote]

i dont know what it is, i think its just that they werent as good a players as the boys who played in the 80s/90s. none of them would have a grounding in underage football so i suppose its difficult for them to start. the boys from 80s/90s were just naturals, good at every sport they played.

as i said earlier in the thread things are starting to move forward. i know plenty of unionists who wouldnt miss the gaa games on tv on a sunday but just dont feel that they could go to watch a game live, either local or county level. i think this is more to do with how their own 'side' would view them rather than not being welcome.

more and more unionists are beginning to be more open about their interest in gaelic games though, which can only be a good thing. i know of a few who have started to appear at our home matches the odd time now that we have been able to raise the profile of the club a wee bit.

[pintsofguinness]

It was a very realistic dream and I would have sworn I was awake but for the fact that I know, having been assured by those here who know about these things (and who imply that they are the only ones qualified to speak on these issues) that this couldn't happen. They have assured me that flags and anthems are not really the issue and that removing them wouldn't have the slightest effect on unionist attitudes. So it can't be that a representative of uber-unionism was happy to attend a GAA match as long as he didn't have to hear the anthem.

Hardy come down of the high horse a minute will you.
Poots went to the game, there was the anthem and the flag how can you argue from that that unionists are put off by the flag and anthem?
If he can go a few minutes late to avoid an anthem then why can't all unionists if they're so offended by it?  Do unionists attend GAA games where there's no flag and anthem and then refuse to go to those where there will be one?

[Gnevin]

Hopefully things may change  now that Edwin Poots asked people to stop burning GAA and Orange halls before the Down - Donegal game tonight.  Did you ever think that you would see a DUP politician at a Dr McKenna cup match?

Clearly turned up to compile a report about the "IRA at Play"

Look gnevin, take it from me, i live in a town where unionists still have a fairly big majority. i can tell you now that many of them are brought up to believe the 'ira at play' tripe, its a sad fact. however, as i have stated already this is beginning to change and more and more unionists are taking an interest (well i know of loads who have had a keen interest all along but just didnt want to be seen to be interested.) with time they will start to join the clubs. taking away the irish flag will do nothing to help. for unionists to start joining clubs they need to appreciate the gaa for what it is, an IRISH sporting and cultural organisation.

and by the way, there are still a good few subscribers to the ira at play label. you only have to look at st comgall's gac in antrim town who wished to make a new field at dunsilly roundabout. opposed by local unionist councillor who publicly stated that he wasnt willing to sanction the building of another ira training camp. this happened around 18 months ago i think.

I don't deny they are idiots who still think along the lines of the IRA at play what i was pointing out was the ridiculous nature of POG's

You've been told on this thread what the unionist problem is - they've been brought up to see the GAA as the IRA at play. 

Ie they all think that

[Gnevin]

With all due respects Gnevin, you are just not making any coherent point. Your problem seems to be an aversion to Nationalism and its symbols. The G.A.A. is a national organisation which respects the Flag and Culture of the nation. It does not support any particular brand of nationalism, or political party within the nation state. You want to throw off all trappings of national identity, Flags,Anthems,etc.but you fail to realise that the G.A.A.s own flag is part of that identity, and is even perceived in some ill-informed and malicious circles as sectarian. Should we ditch that too. By emulating you and standing for nothing in a vain attempt to curry favour with our critics, what will be gained. I would be very open to any proposal which would widen the appeal of our association and strenghten it, but i have not heard one from you yet. In fact if we were to follow your advice, our critics would find us laughable,and scorn us for being so unprincipled and lickspittle that we are no longer worth critisizing, yet alone joining

I've made several proposal ,from removing the flag to rewording the aims of the association all of which you found so unpalatable that you rejected them out of hand.

I've not aversion to Nationalism is the right place. The GAA doesn't or should have a national identity its not a state it should however ever be promotioning Irish culture and games . 
Any of the changes i have suggested have not effect the core values of the association so i dont know how you claim be would end up standing for nothing.


Forget Unionist for just a minute  a American playing in China with a Swede and Chinese team mate. The  flag and the national anthem bring what to them?

[Gnevin]

I don't have very strong opinions on this but I'd be more inclined towards the lads who support the retention of the flag and anthem. I would be slow to remove them because the vast majority of people who play and support GAA (now and in the future) have no problem with it. And I'm dubious about whether unionists have any real issue with them either, after all don't they stand for the Irish flag and anthem when in Lansdown rd. or Croke Park for the rugby and didn't they also do that at away games during the troubles?
        I'm all for inclusiveness and I think that we should do all in our power to make the Ulster Protestant community feel as welcome as possible. But it is a two way street and I think that if protestants started joining the GAA and contributing to the GAA in a meaningful way that it is then we should start addressing any issues they might have. Outside of the AI final I'd not be too concerned whether they play AnaF or not, GAA supporters are probably the least respectful of the national anthem anyway, but the flag should always be flown IMO. At least until a significant number of actual members don't want it to.

Yes after they threaten to walk form their own association and team . Until they got an "All-Ireland" flag and anthem . I believe they stand like i stand for the British/American/French/Whatever Anthem when it's play out of respect.
You  claim to want to do all in our power yet will not take a single step?
I take it significant would be a majority  which will never happen .

[Gnevin]

It was a very realistic dream and I would have sworn I was awake but for the fact that I know, having been assured by those here who know about these things (and who imply that they are the only ones qualified to speak on these issues) that this couldn't happen. They have assured me that flags and anthems are not really the issue and that removing them wouldn't have the slightest effect on unionist attitudes. So it can't be that a representative of uber-unionism was happy to attend a GAA match as long as he didn't have to hear the anthem.

Hardy come down of the high horse a minute will you.
Poots went to the game, there was the anthem and the flag how can you argue from that that unionists are put off by the flag and anthem?
If he can go a few minutes late to avoid an anthem then why can't all unionists if they're so offended by it?  Do unionists attend GAA games where there's no flag and anthem and then refuse to go to those where there will be one?

POG are you familiar with the Irish Rugby team ?
Are you familiar with Ireland's call?
Are you familiar with the reasons for playing Ireland's call?
Yes or no answers please

[Zulu]

Yes after they threaten to walk form their own association and team . Until they got an "All-Ireland" flag and anthem . I believe they stand like i stand for the British/American/French/Whatever Anthem when it's play out of respect.
You  claim to want to do all in our power yet will not take a single step?
I take it significant would be a majority  which will never happen .

Gnevin, isn't the ticolour flown and AnaF played at all home internationals? There must be a few thousand unionists at any home international yet they stand for the anthem and attend the game even though the tricolour flies. Why can they do it for rugby matches yet can't do it for GAA games, is it possible that some are just using it as stick to beat the GAA with?
               The only reason I'd be reticent about removing the flag and/or anthem is that we could be removing something that many currently in the GAA would be upset about, only to appease some of those in a community that probably wouldn't join in any great numbers anyway. Some protestants in the North play and attend GAA games already, I'd be in favour of encouraging more of those within the protestant community who aren't too concerned with flags and anthems to play first. I won't speak for the lads in Ulster, they can do that for themselves but I reckon many of them see the flag and anthem as representing their national identity in a way we can't. I couldn't currently support anything that would go against the wishes of staunch GAA members to placate a community that might just turn around and say 'well that's a first step but while clubs are named after terrorists I couldn't join....etc."
                       Like I say we should do things to encourage protestants to join but they must also make a leap of faith and begin to engage the GAA on a more active level before we should start removing our national flag and anthem from our national games

[Gnevin]

Yes after they threaten to walk form their own association and team . Until they got an "All-Ireland" flag and anthem . I believe they stand like i stand for the British/American/French/Whatever Anthem when it's play out of respect.
You  claim to want to do all in our power yet will not take a single step?
I take it significant would be a majority  which will never happen .

Gnevin, isn't the ticolour flown and AnaF played at all home internationals? There must be a few thousand unionists at any home international yet they stand for the anthem and attend the game even though the tricolour flies. Why can they do it for rugby matches yet can't do it for GAA games, is it possible that some are just using it as stick to beat the GAA with?
                The only reason I'd be reticent about removing the flag and/or anthem is that we could be removing something that many currently in the GAA would be upset about, only to appease some of those in a community that probably wouldn't join in any great numbers anyway. Some protestants in the North play and attend GAA games already, I'd be in favour of encouraging more of those within the protestant community who aren't too concerned with flags and anthems to play first. I won't speak for the lads in Ulster, they can do that for themselves but I reckon many of them see the flag and anthem as representing their national identity in a way we can't. I couldn't currently support anything that would go against the wishes of staunch GAA members to placate a community that might just turn around and say 'well that's a first step but while clubs are named after terrorists I couldn't join....etc."
                        Like I say we should do things to encourage protestants to join but they must also make a leap of faith and begin to engage the GAA on a more active level before we should start removing our national flag and anthem from our national games

I don't know what the issues are and how the unionist community think . It's clear from past information that the Flag and Anthem are an issue. THe IRFU seem to have very cleverly managed to sell a have baked idea to both sides where no one is really happy but sure it better than nothing is the prevailing train of though for what i can gather from the Rugby crowd. 

As I've said before these are only idea's i am throwing out and have all be shot down with in moments  . Apparently Poots has raised a few issues with the GAA and the president last night . I would love to know what they were .

Has the GAA/Ulster Council ever found out what the Unionist community's issues really are?

[Hardy]

Hardy come down of the high horse a minute will you.
Poots went to the game, there was the anthem and the flag how can you argue from that that unionists are put off by the flag and anthem?
If he can go a few minutes late to avoid an anthem then why can't all unionists if they're so offended by it?  Do unionists attend GAA games where there's no flag and anthem and then refuse to go to those where there will be one?

Pints – I always find it funny when people who disagree with another's opinion accuse them of being on a high horse. Is it your crash diet that has you hallucinating about imaginary animals? 

I thought my point was plain enough – just pointing out an anomaly between what we've been repeatedly told here and what took place last night.

Anyway – as someone who doesn't give a damn about flags or anthems one way or another, I need help in understanding what exactly they are for, in the context, say, of a football match in Newry or a hurling game in Thurles? Can anyone explain, by way of educating my vote on the issue, should it ever arise?

And also, can they help me to understand how the Irish anthem and flag played before matches in, say, Serbia will help to promote football and hurling and even handball* to young Serbians?

* Why does nobody give a damn about rounders? I mean, it's there in the GAA's constitution – one of the GAA's main reasons for existence is to "promote Rounders". When did anyone here last see, notice or hear tell of the GAA promoting rounders? Nobody seems to give a curse about the GAA completely abdicating its responsibility to this game and blatantly flouting its own constitution in doing so. Yet dare anyone suggest moving an inch on the flag or anthem. It puzzles me.

[An Fear Rua]

Poots stated today the GAA had come along way espicially opening Croke Park and the playing of the "British Anthem for the British,sorry English Rugby team", and in the same breath described how he turned up late to miss AnF. What wonderful hypocrisy. Just who is it that needs to change..

[Gnevin]

Poots stated today the GAA had come along way espicially opening Croke Park and the playing of the "British Anthem for the British,sorry English Rugby team", and in the same breath described how he turned up late to miss AnF. What wonderful hypocrisy. Just who is it that needs to change..

Where did you hear this quote ?



Would any of you mind if the NFL set up here and refused to fly the Irish flag but instead played The American anthem and flew the Americian flag?

[An Fear Rua]

Poots stated today the GAA had come along way espicially opening Croke Park and the playing of the "British Anthem for the British,sorry English Rugby team", and in the same breath described how he turned up late to miss AnF. What wonderful hypocrisy. Just who is it that needs to change..

Where did you hear this quote ?



Would any of you mind if the NFL set up here and refused to fly the Irish flag but instead played The American anthem and flew the Americian flag?

GMU & Stephen Nolan radio show

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/ulster/aod.shtml?ulster/gmu_thu
1 hr 48 mins into the show.

Navigate to Stephen Nolans show, and listen 1hr 5 mins into it
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/ulster/aod.shtml?ulster/nolan_thu

[Gnevin]

Poots stated today the GAA had come along way espicially opening Croke Park and the playing of the "British Anthem for the British,sorry English Rugby team", and in the same breath described how he turned up late to miss AnF. What wonderful hypocrisy. Just who is it that needs to change..

Where did you hear this quote ?



Would any of you mind if the NFL set up here and refused to fly the Irish flag but instead played The American anthem and flew the Americian flag?

GMU & Stephen Nolan radio show

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/ulster/aod.shtml?ulster/gmu_thu
1 hr 48 mins into the show.

Navigate to Stephen Nolans show, and listen 1hr 5 mins into it
http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/ulster/aod.shtml?ulster/nolan_thu

So would you attend King bill Park?
Well POG their is a Unionist who has an issue with the anthem

[pintsofguinness]

Hardy

Pints – I always find it funny when people who disagree with another's opinion accuse them of being on a high horse. Is it your crash diet that has you hallucinating about imaginary animals?

No, giant sausages actually. 
However, I didn't accuse anyone else of being on a high horse, you have a tendancy to get on one if you disagree with someone especially in these discussions and you come across as condesending and patronising.  Maybe you don't even know you're doing it.

Anyway – as someone who doesn't give a damn about flags or anthems one way or another, I need help
understanding what exactly they are for, in the context, say, of a football match in Newry or a hurling game in Thurles? Can anyone explain, by way of educating my vote on the issue, should it ever arise?

I don't really care about flags or anthems either.  I don't care if there is a crib in the local shopping centre at Christmas time but that doesn't mean I can't object when people want to remove it on the off chance it might offend someone. 

You're point about Poots actually backs up our point!  There we have a unionist who has attended a GAA game, didn't like the idea of the national anthem but arrived a few minutes late in order to skip it and enjoy the game,  what's the big deal?

gnevin

Would any of you mind if the NFL set up here and refused to fly the Irish flag but instead played The American anthem and flew the Americian flag?

I couldn't care less, in fact it would be understandable enough, they are an American organisation, it is an American sport.
Would you care?

So would you attend King bill Park?
Well POG their is a Unionist who has an issue with the anthem

I can't listen to that link but I assume it's Poots that has the problem?  See the answer above.
As for attending King Bill park, yes of course I would, why wouldn't I?  If a community set up a club and called it after something or someone close to their hearts than so what?  If a club was formed tomorrow called Michael Stone GFC, played in King Billy park and wore red white and blue I'd say fair play!  Also, if they then had a problem with the flag and anthem, I'd listen.  That brings me on to your rugby point, rugby is very different to the GAA in that they have members, clubs etc from both sides of the community and the change came to suit unionists WITHIN their organisation not unionists who might, but probably wont, join them if they changed.

[Hardy]

I didn't accuse anyone else of being on a high horse, you have a tendancy to get on one if you disagree with someone especially in these discussions and you come across as condesending and patronising.  Maybe you don't even know you're doing it.

Sorry, pints, but I can't be responsible for your perceptions (though what the height of my imaginary horse has to do with the argument, I have no idea). It's only possible to be condescending and patronising to someone you see as inferior. I don't see you as inferior, nor would I be arrogant enough to believe it about anyone, so from my point of view I can't be condescending to you or patronising you. The problem must be at your end. (How come nobody is ever on a high horse if they're losing the argument?).

Anyway – are you or anyone going to put me right about the importance of flags and anthems and what they do for the GAA and how they promote the games and what we would be losing if we never bothered again playing a bad piece of music or flying an ould rag at the top of a pole and why there's more excitement about them here than about the neglect of rounders? OK, only joking about rounders.

Anyone could be forgiven for thinking that, to some people (not you), their importance is all to do with the fact that they seem to annoy themmuns and therefore must be kept at all costs. You'd get that impression from the argument used by some here that the very reason we mustn't contemplate any compromise on these sacred symbols is because it's what the unionists ask for. That would be conceding a small victory and we couldn't have that. Not an inch.

Am I doing it again?