Whatever about the pros and cons of the parade in Castlederg, it is not a town known for good community relations, I always think of Castlederg and Kilkeel as the prime examples of divided small towns.
With the flegs etc in Belfast you are often dealing with people living in ghettos who never meet a Catholic and who have stereotypical ignorant views of the South etc. Even "nationalists" in Belfast are disconnected from normal Irish life, as overnight events show. But in Castlederg these loyalists do know Catholics, they do buy their diesel in the South and normal Irish life all around them, including the likes of the GAA with recent Donegal/Tyrone rivalry.
What does it say about the future of the country that such places remain so bitter and divided?
I was wondering how there is community relations in a town that is decked out in red, white & blue!?
will it be the same craic as the carry on in belfast the nite, belfats really is the sectarian cess pit i knew it was, 12 yrs working there nothing changed, best part of belfast? The M2 it the f**king way out of it to sensible parts of northern ireland. the only things enjoying the riot are the police dogs, seem well up for it on tv, its like watching Alpha dogs on sky!!
Was in Belfast city centre at 5pm today,1 hour later than I planned to be,and witnessed processions of what can only be described as bad looking f..Kers through Donegall Square obviously making their way to Royal Avenue.Should this not have been prevented?
Stop by Andytown Wiesel, peace and tranquility with festival fever :D
Quote from: T Fearon on August 09, 2013, 10:19:58 PM
Was in Belfast city centre at 5pm today,1 hour later than I planned to be,and witnessed processions of what can only be described as bad looking f..Kers through Donegall Square obviously making their way to Royal Avenue.Should this not have been prevented?
Yes and PC made a balls allowing 6 protests with up to 3/400 in each,they only allow150 at St.Patricks Chapel so why allow so many UVF and OO
I live there! making sure he doesn't tar all of Belfast with the same brush.
I'm listening to Arlene (cuts her hair with a breadknife) foster she reckons the commemoration should take place in Donegal where two of the volunteers were killed. good plan Arlene.
that must by why she celebrates the battle of the boyne in Drogheda. and the somme remembrance in france and on and on.
great move by sinn fein they now have the loyalists NOT wanting parades :) hope it goes well
any word on how its going seems to be no news on telly
Quote from: lawnseed on August 11, 2013, 04:03:25 PM
any word on how its going seems to be no news on telly
Yes all passed off without any trouble and Tyrones dead volunteers were remembered with the respect they deserve.
Always knew country people were different from them maniac city slickers, no burning cars, petrol bombs, bricks etc, peaceful protest duelly noted. At the end of the day what does this say about the people in Belfast, except maybe there no "no-go" areas out in the sticks
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 11, 2013, 06:24:38 PM
Always knew country people were different from them maniac city slickers, no burning cars, petrol bombs, bricks etc, peaceful protest duelly noted. At the end of the day what does this say about the people in Belfast, except maybe there no "no-go" areas out in the sticks
You don't tend to have the 'recreational rioters' outside the cities and big towns.
I saw a few clips on utv seems to have went well. there'll need to be one organised for each county on a more formal basis. there were a few volunteers in the markethill area and portadown that need proper tribute.
Quote from: lawnseed on August 11, 2013, 07:07:09 PM
I saw a few clips on utv seems to have went well. there'll need to be one organised for each county on a more formal basis. there were a few volunteers in the markethill area and portadown that need proper tribute.
Yes, great idea, we definitely need more parades.
Loughmacrory 2-9 Castlederg 0-7 in Tyrone Div 3 today.
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 11, 2013, 07:11:00 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 11, 2013, 07:07:09 PM
I saw a few clips on utv seems to have went well. there'll need to be one organised for each county on a more formal basis. there were a few volunteers in the markethill area and portadown that need proper tribute.
Yes, great idea, we definitely need more parades.
Fantastic idea. Traditional Catholic/Nationalist/Republican areas like Portadown and Markethill would welcome these parades with open arms.
just like orange marches, i dont think we need marches like this, Sinn Fein cant take the morale high ground over parades, then try to piss over the opposition trying to justify these marches while opposing orange marches go ahead.You can remember people without parading down the main street. Imagine the outcry if they ever try to march down Omagh town street. In general its been another piss poor summer with bad blood with parades, all simmering up from the flag protests earlier in the year.
People tend to forget we have to make things better for our children in the future as this generation got no hope, and parades about internment 40yrs ago and a battle on the boyne over 300 yrs ago is the past not the future.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 11, 2013, 07:27:31 PM
just like orange marches, i dont think we need marches like this, Sinn Fein cant take the morale high ground over parades, then try to piss over the opposition trying to justify these marches while opposing orange marches go ahead.You can remember people without parading down the main street. Imagine the outcry if they ever try to march down Omagh town street. In general its been another piss poor summer with bad blood with parades, all simmering up from the flag protests earlier in the year.
People tend to forget we have to make things better for our children in the future as this generation got no hope, and parades about internment 40yrs ago and a battle on the boyne over 300 yrs ago is the past not the future.
Indeed it would be sickening. But no doubt we'd have some politicians who would argue:
"No unionist MLA, councillor, MP or minister, no loyalist paramilitary or loyal order spokesperson - no matter how loud they shout, will prevent me or any other republican honouring our comrades who gave their lives in the struggle for Irish freedom and equality."Take a look at this video - change the colour of the flags, add a few sashes, and it's an Orange march.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23656197
Same crap music, same pissing off 'themmuns', same pointless marching up a road.
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 11, 2013, 07:33:04 PM
Take a look at this video - change the colour of the flags, add a few sashes, and it's an Orange march.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23656197
Same crap music, same pissing off 'themmuns', same pointless marching up a road.
Monkey see, monkey do.
Quote from: All of a Sludden on August 11, 2013, 07:42:30 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 11, 2013, 07:33:04 PM
Take a look at this video - change the colour of the flags, add a few sashes, and it's an Orange march.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23656197
Same crap music, same pissing off 'themmuns', same pointless marching up a road.
Monkey see, monkey do.
The tricolour is a real joke at this stage.
Quote from: seafoid on August 11, 2013, 08:20:27 PM
Quote from: All of a Sludden on August 11, 2013, 07:42:30 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 11, 2013, 07:33:04 PM
Take a look at this video - change the colour of the flags, add a few sashes, and it's an Orange march.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-23656197
Same crap music, same pissing off 'themmuns', same pointless marching up a road.
Monkey see, monkey do.
The tricolour is a real joke at this stage.
No, the people who dishonour it are the joke.
Had a mate from the area who said this on Facebook,
QuoteCastlederg and the North West faces bigger issues than any 'Parade' or 'Protest' in the future. I hope the politicians and public are as passionate and enthusiastic about our area then as they are now.
Find it sad that this is what people chose to remember on the same day as we mark the deaths of the Omagh bomb victims, which included the loss of 6 children and 6 teenagers.
Trileacman - your point was not missed by the Unionists.
GK came out fighting today. I'd say he got a good cheer for this.
Sinn Féin North Belfast MLA, Gerry Kelly, addressed the marchers, criticising what he called the "media maelstrom of attacks" ahead of the event.
Mr Kelly said: "No unionist MLA, councillor, MP or minister, no loyalist paramilitary or loyal order spokesperson - no matter how loud they shout, will prevent me or any other republican honouring our comrades who gave their lives in the struggle for Irish freedom and equality."
He added that the centre of Castlederg was supposed to be a "shared space" and almost 20 unionist marches had taken place in the town so far this year.
"Yet when a single republican commemoration parade is organised we are confronted with a deluge of orchestrated complaints.
"In effect we are being told that it is right for unionism to remember their British dead without interference but how dare republicans remember their Irish dead in the same way."
Mr Kelly said there must not be "a hierarchy of victims which would discriminate against republicans and nationalists not just in life, but in death also".
'Intense provocation'
The Ulster Unionist representatives for the area, Ross and Derek Hussey, were among those attending the counter-demonstration.
Ross Hussey said: "In the face of intense provocation from apologists for murder, the families maintained their dignity and ensured that the memories of their loved ones will always rise above that of the bombers and those that celebrate murderers.
He added: "Despite Sinn Féin dancing on the graves of IRA victims, the people of Castlederg sent out a strong message today that they will not be faced down by Sinn Féin.
"As for Sinn Fein themselves, I don`t think they have any shame - celebrating Irish republican bombers on the same day as families gather in Omagh to remember their loved ones, murdered by Irish republican bombers in that town 15 years ago"
Quote from: orangeman on August 11, 2013, 09:10:05 PM
Trileacman - your point was not missed by the Unionists.
GK came out fighting today. I'd say he got a good cheer for this.
Sinn Féin North Belfast MLA, Gerry Kelly, addressed the marchers, criticising what he called the "media maelstrom of attacks" ahead of the event.
Mr Kelly said: "No unionist MLA, councillor, MP or minister, no loyalist paramilitary or loyal order spokesperson - no matter how loud they shout, will prevent me or any other republican honouring our comrades who gave their lives in the struggle for Irish freedom and equality."
He added that the centre of Castlederg was supposed to be a "shared space" and almost 20 unionist marches had taken place in the town so far this year.
"Yet when a single republican commemoration parade is organised we are confronted with a deluge of orchestrated complaints.
"In effect we are being told that it is right for unionism to remember their British dead without interference but how dare republicans remember their Irish dead in the same way."
Mr Kelly said there must not be "a hierarchy of victims which would discriminate against republicans and nationalists not just in life, but in death also".
'Intense provocation'
The Ulster Unionist representatives for the area, Ross and Derek Hussey, were among those attending the counter-demonstration.
Ross Hussey said: "In the face of intense provocation from apologists for murder, the families maintained their dignity and ensured that the memories of their loved ones will always rise above that of the bombers and those that celebrate murderers.
He added: "Despite Sinn Féin dancing on the graves of IRA victims, the people of Castlederg sent out a strong message today that they will not be faced down by Sinn Féin.
"As for Sinn Fein themselves, I don`t think they have any shame - celebrating Irish republican bombers on the same day as families gather in Omagh to remember their loved ones, murdered by Irish republican bombers in that town 15 years ago"
I think Gerry Kelly spoke well and pertinent.
it was great. I could really get into this parading. the bands were class, the uniforms were cool, the speeches were good and the weather was perfect.. not too warm. it was great to meet are tyrone brothers again. this kind of commemoration needs to be moved around each county so all our dead volunteers can be honoured for their sacrifice. we need more monuments. nothing too tacky, the one at Mullaban is class and is a nice place to sit down and say a prayer.
Quote from: lawnseed on August 11, 2013, 11:31:03 PM
it was great. I could really get into this parading. the bands were class, the uniforms were cool, the speeches were good and the weather was perfect.. not too warm. it was great to meet are tyrone brothers again. this kind of commemoration needs to be moved around each county so all our dead volunteers can be honoured for their sacrifice. we need more monuments. nothing too tacky, the one at Mullaban is class and is a nice place to sit down and say a prayer.
Are you on the wind-up or just a madman?
Kelly's comments about shared space is fine. But the "we'll do what we like regardless" is a mirror image of what we are used to.
Quote from: armaghniac on August 11, 2013, 11:38:42 PM
Kelly's comments about shared space is fine. But the "we'll do what we like regardless" is a mirror image of what we are used to.
You have to keep the electorate happy.
But there seems to be a genuine breakdown in relations over this whole fleg and parading issue between SF and the DUP.
Quote from: orangeman on August 11, 2013, 11:43:10 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 11, 2013, 11:38:42 PM
Kelly's comments about shared space is fine. But the "we'll do what we like regardless" is a mirror image of what we are used to.
You have to keep the electorate happy.
But there seems to be a genuine breakdown in relations over this whole fleg and parading issue between SF and the DUP.
Do the SF electorate really buy this shit? I don't beloeve for one minute that people would stop voting Sinn Fein if they said tomorrow that they would continue to remember volunteers in a lower key ceremony in a field amd would stop backing marches/parades in any town. I honestly believe there would be political capital in this approach with minimal pushback from the electorate.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 11, 2013, 11:36:05 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 11, 2013, 11:31:03 PM
it was great. I could really get into this parading. the bands were class, the uniforms were cool, the speeches were good and the weather was perfect.. not too warm. it was great to meet are tyrone brothers again. this kind of commemoration needs to be moved around each county so all our dead volunteers can be honoured for their sacrifice. we need more monuments. nothing too tacky, the one at Mullaban is class and is a nice place to sit down and say a prayer.
Are you on the wind-up or just a madman?
:D
Thank you for lightening the awfulness of this depressing episode. It does help to remember that we really are dealing with a gang of mad bastards.
Quote from: Hardy on August 12, 2013, 12:28:48 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 11, 2013, 11:36:05 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 11, 2013, 11:31:03 PM
it was great. I could really get into this parading. the bands were class, the uniforms were cool, the speeches were good and the weather was perfect.. not too warm. it was great to meet are tyrone brothers again. this kind of commemoration needs to be moved around each county so all our dead volunteers can be honoured for their sacrifice. we need more monuments. nothing too tacky, the one at Mullaban is class and is a nice place to sit down and say a prayer.
Are you on the wind-up or just a madman?
:D
Thank you for lightening the awfulness of this depressing episode. It does help to remember that we really are dealing with a gang of mad b**tards.
i'm glad you think its funny. I doubt you'd give your life for any cause. I wouldn't like to be on a boat of which you were the captain. it must be cosy where your living far far away in dear old ireland
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 11, 2013, 11:36:05 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 11, 2013, 11:31:03 PM
it was great. I could really get into this parading. the bands were class, the uniforms were cool, the speeches were good and the weather was perfect.. not too warm. it was great to meet are tyrone brothers again. this kind of commemoration needs to be moved around each county so all our dead volunteers can be honoured for their sacrifice. we need more monuments. nothing too tacky, the one at Mullaban is class and is a nice place to sit down and say a prayer.
Are you on the wind-up or just a madman?
Unfortunately, I think he's both.
Quote from: trileacman on August 11, 2013, 08:55:32 PM
Had a mate from the area who said this on Facebook,
QuoteCastlederg and the North West faces bigger issues than any 'Parade' or 'Protest' in the future. I hope the politicians and public are as passionate and enthusiastic about our area then as they are now.
Find it sad that this is what people chose to remember on the same day as we mark the deaths of the Omagh bomb victims, which included the loss of 6 children and 6 teenagers.
August 15 1998
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 12, 2013, 01:05:19 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 11, 2013, 11:36:05 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 11, 2013, 11:31:03 PM
it was great. I could really get into this parading. the bands were class, the uniforms were cool, the speeches were good and the weather was perfect.. not too warm. it was great to meet are Tyrone brothers again. this kind of commemoration needs to be moved around each county so all our dead volunteers can be honoured for their sacrifice. we need more monuments. nothing too tacky, the one at Mullaban is class and is a nice place to sit down and say a prayer.
Are you on the wind-up or just a madman?
Unfortunately, I think he's both.
we are under no illusions the position is sinn fein are taking ownership of the past. men died for their country in a battle that couldn't be won militarily speaking.(ask Argentina) we know where we are at and we are taking ownership of this country its not an orange state any more, we don't stare into the ground when we meet our orange neighbours, we look then in the eye and say your British and this IS ireland but I'm willing to accept you warts and all but you have to do the same.
maybe other southern brothers could do the same and take ownership of their own country stop treating it like they borrowed it from england
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 12, 2013, 12:07:39 AM
Quote from: orangeman on August 11, 2013, 11:43:10 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 11, 2013, 11:38:42 PM
Kelly's comments about shared space is fine. But the "we'll do what we like regardless" is a mirror image of what we are used to.
You have to keep the electorate happy.
But there seems to be a genuine breakdown in relations over this whole fleg and parading issue between SF and the DUP.
Do the SF electorate really buy this shit? I don't beloeve for one minute that people would stop voting Sinn Fein if they said tomorrow that they would continue to remember volunteers in a lower key ceremony in a field amd would stop backing marches/parades in any town. I honestly believe there would be political capital in this approach with minimal pushback from the electorate.
you don't get it.. take a few steps back you'll see more of the big picture ;)
Quote from: orangeman on August 11, 2013, 11:43:10 PM
Quote from: armaghniac on August 11, 2013, 11:38:42 PM
Kelly's comments about shared space is fine. But the "we'll do what we like regardless" is a mirror image of what we are used to.
You have to keep the electorate happy.
But there seems to be a genuine breakdown in relations over this whole fleg and parading issue between SF and the DUP.
no the whole thing is going to plan
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 11, 2013, 11:36:05 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 11, 2013, 11:31:03 PM
it was great. I could really get into this parading. the bands were class, the uniforms were cool, the speeches were good and the weather was perfect.. not too warm. it was great to meet are tyrone brothers again. this kind of commemoration needs to be moved around each county so all our dead volunteers can be honoured for their sacrifice. we need more monuments. nothing too tacky, the one at Mullaban is class and is a nice place to sit down and say a prayer.
Are you on the wind-up or just a madman?
I'm still not sure.
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 12, 2013, 08:36:49 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 11, 2013, 11:36:05 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 11, 2013, 11:31:03 PM
it was great. I could really get into this parading. the bands were class, the uniforms were cool, the speeches were good and the weather was perfect.. not too warm. it was great to meet are tyrone brothers again. this kind of commemoration needs to be moved around each county so all our dead volunteers can be honoured for their sacrifice. we need more monuments. nothing too tacky, the one at Mullaban is class and is a nice place to sit down and say a prayer.
Are you on the wind-up or just a madman?
I'm still not sure.
I have been suspecting a quality WUM for some time now. This was just slightly less subtle than his sheep tirades at the non-SF electorate.
Quote from: lawnseed on August 12, 2013, 12:55:46 AM
Quote from: Hardy on August 12, 2013, 12:28:48 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 11, 2013, 11:36:05 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 11, 2013, 11:31:03 PM
it was great. I could really get into this parading. the bands were class, the uniforms were cool, the speeches were good and the weather was perfect.. not too warm. it was great to meet are tyrone brothers again. this kind of commemoration needs to be moved around each county so all our dead volunteers can be honoured for their sacrifice. we need more monuments. nothing too tacky, the one at Mullaban is class and is a nice place to sit down and say a prayer.
Are you on the wind-up or just a madman?
:D
Thank you for lightening the awfulness of this depressing episode. It does help to remember that we really are dealing with a gang of mad b**tards.
i'm glad you think its funny. I doubt you'd give your life for any cause. I wouldn't like to be on a boat of which you were the captain. it must be cosy where your living far far away in dear old ireland
And they looked great in their white shirts and sunglasses - adds a real touch of class.
Imitation is the greatest form of flattery they say - the OO will be blushing.
Less parades not more - in fact no more "Parades" for the next 6 months !!
Police Federation in Northern Ireland calls for parades ban Loyalist protesters confronted police in Belfast city centre Continue reading the main story
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Tough talking
The chairman of the Police Federation has called for all contentious parades in Northern Ireland to be stopped for six months.
Terry Spence said a parades moratorium would allow political representatives to find a solution to the issue.
His comments follow violence in Belfast city centre on Friday night after loyalist protesters blocked a republican parade on Royal Avenue.
Fifty-six officers were injured during the trouble.
Police fired 26 plastic bullets and made eight arrests amid sustained rioting in Royal Avenue.
Mr Spence said a ban on parades "would give everyone a breathing space so that Richard Haass, the special envoy from the United States, can do his work and it also gives the police service time to consolidate their position".
He added: "What we need is an urgent surge in resources, because it is quite obvious on the basis of what has been happening over the past year that the police service is stretched to the limit."
In response, a spokesperson for the Ulster People's Forum said: "Someone needs to make it clear to the PSNI that they are there to enforce the law, and the running of our democratic systems, politics and the judiciary are nothing to do with them."
'Intent on violence'
Earlier, a senior PSNI officer said it was clear to police early on Friday evening that loyalists opposing a republican parade were intent on violence.
Assistant Chief Constable George Hamilton said none of the loyalist protest groups seemed to show any leadership to stop the violence.
"It was pretty clear to us from about half past five on Friday that there was a significant number, probably the majority of people on Royal Avenue, determined not to engage properly with the police, but probably had some violent intent," he said.
"There was no semblance of any organisation or co-ordination or leadership from any protest group, we just couldn't see it.
Continue reading the main story
"
Start Quote
The resilience and the tenacity of our rank and file officers simply amazes me, I am extremely proud of them"
"We didn't see at any point, and we were monitoring it all week as you can imagine, any mobilisation to protest in a way that people had notified to the Parades Commission, it just simply didn't happen.
"Instead what we saw was chaos, disorganisation and violence being meted out against our officers."
ACC Hamilton said he did not think there had been too few police at the protests, saying there were "only so many police officers you can put into Royal Avenue".
Quote from: armaghniac on August 11, 2013, 11:38:42 PM
Kelly's comments about shared space is fine. But the "we'll do what we like regardless" is a mirror image of what we are used to.
Gerry makes the claim for republicans, in the face of intense hatred/ ethnic condescension from unionists, to take up their right for a 5% slice of the shared marching space in the town, the commemoration parade is legal, passes off peacefully and you call that a mirror image of what you are use to?
Its all falling into place nicely. castlederg will be remembered as defining moment in modern nordie history. Loyalists saw what we see and the didnt like it one bit. A mirror was held up and it was grotesque. Mission accomplished. Even in death these volonteers are furthering a better ireland.
May they rest in peace.
Quote from: lawnseed on August 12, 2013, 04:59:15 PM
Its all falling into place nicely. castlederg will be remembered as defining moment in modern nordie history. Loyalists saw what we see and the didnt like it one bit. A mirror was held up and it was grotesque. Mission accomplished. Even in death these volonteers are furthering a better ireland.
May they rest in peace.
It might well be remembered for SF commemorating those who killed themselves on their way to blow up a town, on the anniversary of a bomb that killed 29 people in another town just down the road.
It was only by good luck that the two were killed by their own bomb before they had the chance to kill others.
They did nothing to further a "better Ireland" then, and such parades will do nothing to further a better Ireland now.
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 05:21:12 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 12, 2013, 04:59:15 PM
Its all falling into place nicely. castlederg will be remembered as defining moment in modern nordie history. Loyalists saw what we see and the didnt like it one bit. A mirror was held up and it was grotesque. Mission accomplished. Even in death these volonteers are furthering a better ireland.
May they rest in peace.
It might well be remembered for SF commemorating those who killed themselves on their way to blow up a town, on the anniversary of a bomb that killed 29 people in another town just down the road.
It was only by good luck that the two were killed by their own bomb before they had the chance to kill others.
They did nothing to further a "better Ireland" then, and such parades will do nothing to further a better Ireland now.
Your the only poster on this forum who'd take pleasure in the deaths of two fellow irishmen spoken like a true stoop.
Quote from: lawnseed on August 12, 2013, 05:32:38 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 05:21:12 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 12, 2013, 04:59:15 PM
Its all falling into place nicely. castlederg will be remembered as defining moment in modern nordie history. Loyalists saw what we see and the didnt like it one bit. A mirror was held up and it was grotesque. Mission accomplished. Even in death these volonteers are furthering a better ireland.
May they rest in peace.
It might well be remembered for SF commemorating those who killed themselves on their way to blow up a town, on the anniversary of a bomb that killed 29 people in another town just down the road.
It was only by good luck that the two were killed by their own bomb before they had the chance to kill others.
They did nothing to further a "better Ireland" then, and such parades will do nothing to further a better Ireland now.
Your the only poster on this forum who'd take pleasure in the deaths of two fellow irishmen spoken like a true stoop.
I take no pleasure in
anyone's death. But they had a choice - they died through their own actions. Their victims - potentially innocent civilians - would have had no choice. I think it's 'good luck' that this was avoided and that it didn't end up like Omagh.
"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.
Yes, Maguire. Please don't exaggerate. They were on their way to blow up only some of a town.
Gerry can hardly lecture to people about orange marches breaking determinations when he says we do what we want regardless, is that not the same attitude of the orange order he bitching about not 2/3 weeks bck?
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 12, 2013, 08:00:59 PM
Gerry can hardly lecture to people about orange marches breaking determinations when he says we do what we want regardless, is that not the same attitude of the orange order he bitching about not 2/3 weeks bck?
Talking balls again SF didn't break any determination and never at any time say they would.
Quote from: lawnseed on August 12, 2013, 07:25:26 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 12, 2013, 01:05:19 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 11, 2013, 11:36:05 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 11, 2013, 11:31:03 PM
it was great. I could really get into this parading. the bands were class, the uniforms were cool, the speeches were good and the weather was perfect.. not too warm. it was great to meet are Tyrone brothers again. this kind of commemoration needs to be moved around each county so all our dead volunteers can be honoured for their sacrifice. we need more monuments. nothing too tacky, the one at Mullaban is class and is a nice place to sit down and say a prayer.
Are you on the wind-up or just a madman?
Unfortunately, I think he's both.
we are under no illusions the position is sinn fein are taking ownership of the past. men died for their country in a battle that couldn't be won militarily speaking.(ask Argentina) we know where we are at and we are taking ownership of this country its not an orange state any more, we don't stare into the ground when we meet our orange neighbours, we look then in the eye and say your British and this IS ireland but I'm willing to accept you warts and all but you have to do the same.
maybe other southern brothers could do the same and take ownership of their own country stop treating it like they borrowed it from england
What country are you taking ownership of? Surely you don't mean the 6 counties - do you think it's a country, really? Unusual viewpoint for a Shinner, but there you go. You can't mean the 32 counties, as the Shinners remain a minority party in the 26 counties, despite the fact that all of their political opponents have managed, between them, to bankrupt the state and saddle the people with shed loads of debt. Which country are you talking about? And why were you staring into the ground when you met your orange neighbours? Ashamed of something, were you? Omagh playing on your mind, was it? Or Kingsmill? Or Darkley? Or La Mons? Or Enniskillen? Or... (continue ad nauseam)
Irishmen and women will never allow republicans to take ownership of this country. The sight of Kelly walking down the road with a bunch of clowns dressed in dark sunglasses and berets, was a reminder of just why the man is unfit to run a bath, never mind a country. One day northern unionists will cotton on to the fact that the best way of sidelining wankers like Adams and Kelly is to have an all Ireland parliament based in Dublin. They're big fish in the 6 counties. In 32 county Ireland they're nothing.
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 12, 2013, 07:40:19 PM
"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.
Ok then, give us your spin.
Aint taking balls mate! gerry says we do want we want regardless, thats the same attitude the orange order has, no difference!
Quote from: Puckoon on August 12, 2013, 03:45:11 AM
Quote from: trileacman on August 11, 2013, 08:55:32 PM
Had a mate from the area who said this on Facebook,
QuoteCastlederg and the North West faces bigger issues than any 'Parade' or 'Protest' in the future. I hope the politicians and public are as passionate and enthusiastic about our area then as they are now.
Find it sad that this is what people chose to remember on the same day as we mark the deaths of the Omagh bomb victims, which included the loss of 6 children and 6 teenagers.
August 15 1998
The ceremony to mark the bombing was held on Sunday, a few days before the actual anniversary.
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 12, 2013, 09:18:27 PM
Aint taking balls mate! gerry says we do want we want regardless, thats the same attitude the orange order has, no difference!
I will paste his speech tomorrow and you can show me where he said we will do what we want regardless.
I don't understand the appeal of marching. We've all been sick of the sight of the f**kers for 2 month's now and how do SF react to Unionists marching around like a crowd of w*nkers? To march around like a crowd of w*nkers.
If they want to commemorate the two lads then why not a rally, a speech, a wreath laying or a mass? What the fcuk does marching add?
Quote from: glens abu on August 12, 2013, 08:12:26 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 12, 2013, 08:00:59 PM
Gerry can hardly lecture to people about orange marches breaking determinations when he says we do what we want regardless, is that not the same attitude of the orange order he bitching about not 2/3 weeks bck?
Talking balls again SF didn't break any determination and never at any time say they would.
According to TUV Jim they broke determinations regarding paramilitary-style clothing and depictions of weaponry.
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 09:39:46 PM
Quote from: glens abu on August 12, 2013, 08:12:26 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 12, 2013, 08:00:59 PM
Gerry can hardly lecture to people about orange marches breaking determinations when he says we do what we want regardless, is that not the same attitude of the orange order he bitching about not 2/3 weeks bck?
Talking balls again SF didn't break any determination and never at any time say they would.
According to TUV Jim they broke determinations regarding paramilitary-style clothing and depictions of weaponry.
I wouldn't believe that clown
Quote from: glens abu on August 12, 2013, 09:44:02 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 09:39:46 PM
Quote from: glens abu on August 12, 2013, 08:12:26 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 12, 2013, 08:00:59 PM
Gerry can hardly lecture to people about orange marches breaking determinations when he says we do what we want regardless, is that not the same attitude of the orange order he bitching about not 2/3 weeks bck?
Talking balls again SF didn't break any determination and never at any time say they would.
According to TUV Jim they broke determinations regarding paramilitary-style clothing and depictions of weaponry.
I wouldn't believe that clown
He has photos apparently.
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 10:13:20 PM
Quote from: glens abu on August 12, 2013, 09:44:02 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 09:39:46 PM
Quote from: glens abu on August 12, 2013, 08:12:26 PM
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 12, 2013, 08:00:59 PM
Gerry can hardly lecture to people about orange marches breaking determinations when he says we do what we want regardless, is that not the same attitude of the orange order he bitching about not 2/3 weeks bck?
Talking balls again SF didn't break any determination and never at any time say they would.
According to TUV Jim they broke determinations regarding paramilitary-style clothing and depictions of weaponry.
I wouldn't believe that clown
He has photos apparently.
I'm not denying or confirming anything Jim says, but I did see one of his pictures. It was a marcher with a Sinn Fein logo on his jacket.
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 12, 2013, 07:40:19 PM
"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.
Ok then, give us your spin.
They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town"
is spin.
Hold on a f**king minute here! For YEARS the Brits / loyalists/ unionists walked all over the top of us, simply because they could . Now, they can't , and it's driving them f**king bonkers. For the best part of 30 years they could march wherever they wanted, ban what they wanted , and get couriered in to shoot whoever the f**k they felt like shooting.
To bring Omagh into this is bullshit. Sinn Fein had and continue to have ZERO affiliation with the real Ira , who committed that horrible attack. As Nally stand correctly pointed out, they weren't going to blow up the town, but sure most of you just regurgitate what you read and hear in the news.
Maguire, I was born and bred in the north, and now live in the USA . I consider myself 100% Irish, every bit as much as yourself! Perhaps if we hadn't been left hanging by the balls 90 years ago by our southern " cousins" we wouldn't have experienced any of these tragedies? What should the people of the north have done? Those who consider themselves as Irish as you. Should they have laid down and have the unionists walk all over them ? Trust me, there were a lot of people killed in obtaining the 26 counties many years ago, to bring up the likes of Kingsmill is horseshit. Why don't you bring up king rat? A police force supposedly protecting us, actually having us killed in our own houses and pubs? Being discriminated against on a daily basis? Shoot to kill policy?
Tell me??
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 01:14:10 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 12, 2013, 07:40:19 PM
"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.
Ok then, give us your spin.
They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.
Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 12, 2013, 08:27:32 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 12, 2013, 07:25:26 AM
Quote from: Lar Naparka on August 12, 2013, 01:05:19 AM
Quote from: Tony Baloney on August 11, 2013, 11:36:05 PM
Quote from: lawnseed on August 11, 2013, 11:31:03 PM
it was great. I could really get into this parading. the bands were class, the uniforms were cool, the speeches were good and the weather was perfect.. not too warm. it was great to meet are Tyrone brothers again. this kind of commemoration needs to be moved around each county so all our dead volunteers can be honoured for their sacrifice. we need more monuments. nothing too tacky, the one at Mullaban is class and is a nice place to sit down and say a prayer.
Are you on the wind-up or just a madman?
Unfortunately, I think he's both.
we are under no illusions the position is sinn fein are taking ownership of the past. men died for their country in a battle that couldn't be won militarily speaking.(ask Argentina) we know where we are at and we are taking ownership of this country its not an orange state any more, we don't stare into the ground when we meet our orange neighbours, we look then in the eye and say your British and this IS ireland but I'm willing to accept you warts and all but you have to do the same.
maybe other southern brothers could do the same and take ownership of their own country stop treating it like they borrowed it from england
What country are you taking ownership of? Surely you don't mean the 6 counties - do you think it's a country, really? Unusual viewpoint for a Shinner, but there you go. You can't mean the 32 counties, as the Shinners remain a minority party in the 26 counties, despite the fact that all of their political opponents have managed, between them, to bankrupt the state and saddle the people with shed loads of debt. Which country are you talking about? And why were you staring into the ground when you met your orange neighbours? Ashamed of something, were you? Omagh playing on your mind, was it? Or Kingsmill? Or Darkley? Or La Mons? Or Enniskillen? Or... (continue ad nauseam)
Irishmen and women will never allow republicans to take ownership of this country. The sight of Kelly walking down the road with a bunch of clowns dressed in dark sunglasses and berets, was a reminder of just why the man is unfit to run a bath, never mind a country. One day northern unionists will cotton on to the fact that the best way of sidelining w**kers like Adams and Kelly is to have an all Ireland parliament based in Dublin. They're big fish in the 6 counties. In 32 county Ireland they're nothing.
darkley? omagh? are you just adding them to have something to talk about? why not 9/11
we need to get these marches up to about 50 per county per annum. about 300 per year that's not too bad compared to 4000 loyalist parades. we need more guys strutting their stuff back and forth across the road as they march and a few big fat fellas to bang the shite out of a big bass drum with the sweat pumping out of them. also we need a few drunken oul dolls dressed in khaki with masks around the place shouting chucky ar la.then we need a few black guys from the Caribbean with surnames like Murphy and Kelly. maybe throw in a few farc guerrillas and few bask separatists. maybe that dancing gimp priest in the kilt.
you see its like house training a pup when it shites in the house you stick its nose in it a few times then he'll learn to quit. we need to rub the loyalists noses in this shite to get them to see 'better shite somewhere where it doesn't annoy these crowd'
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 07:28:01 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 01:14:10 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 12, 2013, 07:40:19 PM
"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.
Ok then, give us your spin.
They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.
Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.
go away and fiddle your expenses ::)
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 07:28:01 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 01:14:10 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 12, 2013, 07:40:19 PM
"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.
Ok then, give us your spin.
They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.
Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.
At that stage what was the alternative? Roll over and live as second class citizens? Be completely dominated by Unionism? No harm but you obviously have no clue whatsoever what went on up here in the 70s and 80s.
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 07:28:01 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 01:14:10 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 12, 2013, 07:40:19 PM
"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.
Ok then, give us your spin.
They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.
Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.
Or maybe nobody might have been killed at all. Who knows. Such is the reality of war. And sure if it wasn't for the realities of war, Monaghan would be one of 32 counties under British rule right now. But sure at last absolutely no innocents were killed in that war eh?
Quote from: Wildweasel74 on August 12, 2013, 09:18:27 PM
Aint taking balls mate! gerry says we do want we want regardless, thats the same attitude the orange order has, no difference!
GERRY KELLY'S ADDRESS TO TYRONE VOLUNTEERS COMMEMORATION
Is onoir mór dombsa cupla briathre a ra inniu ar na daoine as Tir Eoghan a fuair bas ar son saoirse na hEireann le linn an Cogadh fhada.
When I was asked some weeks ago to speak at the annual commemoration of the Tyrone Volunteers who lost their lives in the pursuit of Irish Independence and Freedom I was honoured to agree. As I've liste...ned over those weeks to the building media maelstrom of attacks on their memory and integrity my wish to speak at this gathering has grown in proportion to those attacks.
Let me state this clearly at the start: No Unionist MLA, Councillor, MP or Minister; no loyalist paramilitary or Loyal Order spokesperson - no matter how loud they shout, will prevent me or any other Republican honouring our comrades who gave their lives in the Struggle for Irish freedom and equality.
The Republicans and Nationalists of Castlederg / Aghyaran and of Tyrone remember the oppression of house raids, harassment, internment, collusion, imprisonment and shoot to kill. They also remember when the RUC, UDR and British Army in their thousands tried to prevent the dignified burials of our comrades killed in action.
The wrong place for Unionist politicians or Orange Order spokespersons to be at the moment is on any platform self-righteously pontificating about dead Volunteer's of the Irish Republican Army. Especially with the known closeness of the DUP to the Freeman Memorial Flute Band or North Belfast flute band which celebrates UVF man Brian Robinson or the platforms shared with loyalist paramilitaries.
There was a war, which the Orange Apartheid State caused through its institutionalised and endemic discrimination and oppression of the Catholic population over generations. It was described succinctly by Lord Craigavon as "A Protestant State for a Protestant People." Terrible things happened during that conflict. Terrible suffering was inflicted on all sides - by all sides. But let us not countenance a hierarchy of victims which would discriminate against Republicans and Nationalists not just in life, but in death also.
We are told by Unionists that Tyrone Republicans are insensitive to those who suffered at the hands of Republicans, in this area. Yet Castlederg is where Republicans have been involved in dialogue with the Loyal Orders and others within the Unionist section of our community for over 5 years. Despite the difficulties and hurt felt, the majority Nationalist population in the area have tolerated Loyal Order marches through the town which amount to almost 20 in this year alone. The majority Irish Nationalist town is also festooned with pro-British flags and emblems.
It was agreed in those talks that the centre of Castlederg should be a shared space. Yet when a single Republican commemoration parade is organised we are confronted with a deluge of orchestrated complaints. In effect we are being told that it is right for unionism to remember their British dead without interference but how dare Republicans remember their Irish dead in the same way. No discussion of the issue – just megaphone attack
When the problem was identified publicly: as Republicans parading past the cenotaph, Castlederg Republicans took an initiative and I want to congratulate them for that. They said that, this year, they would not parade around the Diamond where the cenotaph and the Methodist Church were situated.
The Parades Commission, instead of recognising this as a huge step; instead of recognising that Republicans were involved in constructive dialogue for over 5 years –restricted the parade further. Even those restrictions weren't enough for Unionists. They then demanded that honouring our dead should be banned altogether. They demanded that the British Secretary of State ban the commemoration parade and then that the PSNI ban it.
As people here know, that has been done before in our history and it did not work then and it certainly will not work now. You cannot, with any law or legislation banish the feeling of respect and pride in the hearts of Republicans for their comrades.
But lest you think that the bigotry stops there, remember, not so long ago there was a Fleadh parade in Castlederg which was not Republican and what did the same Unionists do? They opposed it. A GAA pitch was to be built and named after Marius McHugh, a local man who died of cancer and left money in his will to help pay the costs. What did the Unionists do? They opposed it. In both cases they failed but unfortunately, it shows that this is not a new phenomenon.
Despite the present difficulties, Republicans withdrew a peaceful protest against the Apprentice Boys parade yesterday to de-escalate a worsening situation. If the Orange Order had done the same in Belfast last night we would not have had the verocious attacks on the police we witnessed last night - incidentally a considerable distance from the legal parade which had been filed for.
This was then followed up with sectarian attacks on Nationalist homes in North and East Belfast. The Loyalists also attacked a pub frequented by Catholics which had been previously attacked by Loyalist gunmen killing three Catholics.
The DUP spent their time blaming the Parades Commission as usual. Unionist Representatives have seldom shown strong leadership. The First Minister Peter Robinson has been uncharacteristically quiet. The most militant voice leads – whether that is a Willie Fraser or Jim Allister or some loyalist paramilitary. The DUP are inclined to follow.
So, having said all that, where does it bring us? Does it make me feel hopeless or helpless? No. Do I think dialogue should cease? No, I don't. It means, after today, we seek out those who we need to talk to in the Unionist part of our community and we find a way forward with them.
We recognise that there are two narratives about our past. That is the reality. It does not mean that we will agree on the past. I do not expect Unionists to agree with or even accept a Republican or Nationalist view of the past. No more than Unionists can expect Republicans to agree with their account of our history. I may not like the part played by the Crown Forces during the conflict but I absolutely accept their right to commemorate their dead with dignity. Indeed Alex Maskey was the first Sinn Fein Mayor to reach out through laying a wreath for Remembrance Sunday some years ago. Unionists may not like the part played by Republican Freedom Fighters in the conflict but they should accept their right to be commemorated with dignity.
If both sections of our community can come to terms with the fact of there being two narratives, at least two views of our past. That, I believe will help our whole society to move forward. We have, in fact, agreed on many things already – the GFA, St Andrews and Hillsborough agreements being prime examples. There are also things we don't agree on. But for the future, for a shared future there may have to be more compromises on all sides. If we can allow for the different narratives it may open up the space to do that.
Without dialogue, whether in Castlederg or Derry or Rasharkin or Belfast we cannot progress. So as Republicans we must stand by face to face dialogue as a method of resolution.
But today, let me say this on the 40th Anniversary of the deaths of Volunteer Seamus Harvey and Volunteer Gerard McGlynn who gave their lives so that we could be free.
These 2 young men could have made different choices in life. They could've avoided the risks of imprisonment or death – But they were leaders, people who led from the front. They chose to stand up against the oppression in our country, the intimidation of their people: Because of their profound love of Ireland and of their community.
They were not alone in Tyrone to step forward in Ireland's time of need. Tyrone has given of its best over the centuries. It has suffered and sacrificed more than its fair share in the conflict. There are 60 names on the roll of honour-most of them young men cut down in their prime.
It is worth saying – and I hope Unionism is listening, that they were ordinary young men who loved their families and friends and were loved in return. They got great satisfaction from playing sport and reading history and going to dances or courting or playing with their children or going to college or university. They were ordinary young men in the extraordinary circumstances of the early 1970's who rose to the challenge of the time. They had a vision of Equality and Freedom and they knew the risks they were taking to achieve it but they could not stand idly by or leave it to others.
It is a harsh reality of Resistance that we lose some of our best activists during armed conflict and Seamus and Gerard along with their other comrades whom we remember here today, paid with their lives. Forever young, they are remembered, loved and cherished by their families, friends and comrades and always will be.
We also remember those who lived their lives in service to the people and the cause of freedom. Some of whom have died in this area in the last few years.
I don't know what our dead comrades might have said if they were here today on this platform, but what I do know is that they left a legacy behind them. Their courage and their sacrifice inspired others who took up their mantle and continued their struggle.
What I do know is that they played their part in our long struggle with dedication and commitment using the tools available to them in the 1970s. As our comrades in 1916, or in 1803, or in 1798 used the tools available to them in their eras and indeed in any of the many uprisings, large or small which has peppered our Island's history.
What I do know is that we, who continue that struggle for Irish Unity and Independence, must use the tools available to us in 2013. We should not and cannot act as if it is 1916 or 1969 or 1980 or 1996 or even 2006. We cannot live in our past but we must learn from our past to secure and improve our future. There are those on both sides, a minority, who yearn for past certainties, who want to return to the conflict years. They will use any issue in a forlorn attempt to undermine progress or destabilise the peace. They will fail because they have no vision for the future of Ireland and therefore no strategy other than violence itself. The vast majority of people on the Island reject them.
James Connolly who was executed by the British in 1916, speaking of Wolfe Tone, the father of modern republicanism said: "We who hold his principles believe that any movement which would successfully grapple with the problem of national freedom must draw its inspiration, not from the moulding records of the past, but from the glowing hopes of the living present, the vast possibilities of the mighty future".
Ní Raibh Seamas Ó Conghaile ina phriosúnach don stair. A chomradaithí agus a chairde, inniú agus as seo amach tá muid ag deanamh ar stair féin agus ar dtodhchaí féin.
James Connolly was no prisoner of History. Comrades and friends, today and into the future we are shaping our own history and destiny.
The united Ireland Sinn Féin seeks to build is inclusive, pluralist and where all the elements of the Irish nation are comfortable, secure and can find the fullest expression of their identity.
Sinn Féin is a party on the rise. In the North we are the undisputed voice of nationalism and are transforming a society moving out of conflict and into a new shared future. In the South we are providing the credible, radical republican opposition to the gombeenism, corruption and lack of vision of a political establishment which has failed the Irish people.
Republicanism on this island has never been so strong, so organized and so capable of achieving its objectives. This generation of republicans is laying the foundations for a New Republic — a 32-County Republic with social justice and equality at its core.
This generation has the greatest opportunity since Partition to finally achieve genuine national self-determination. We do not underestimate the challenges ahead. Indeed as Republicans we embrace challenge, we embrace activism and we embrace the responsibility that comes with activism.
Finally, and importantly we could not have got this far without the activism, dedication and self-sacrifice of the people we are here to honour today. Our best tribute to them, I would suggest is to rededicate ourselves to the achievement of the United Ireland for which they gave their lives.
We recognise that there are two narratives about our past. That is the reality. It does not mean that we will agree on the past. I do not expect Unionists to agree with or even accept a Republican or Nationalist view of the past. No more than Unionists can expect Republicans to agree with their account of our history. I may not like the part played by the Crown Forces during the conflict but I absolutely accept their right to commemorate their dead with dignity. Indeed Alex Maskey was the first Sinn Fein Mayor to reach out through laying a wreath for Remembrance Sunday some years ago. Unionists may not like the part played by Republican Freedom Fighters in the conflict but they should accept their right to be commemorated with dignity.
If both sections of our community can come to terms with the fact of there being two narratives, at least two views of our past. That, I believe will help our whole society to move forward. We have, in fact, agreed on many things already – the GFA, St Andrews and Hillsborough agreements being prime examples. There are also things we don't agree on. But for the future, for a shared future there may have to be more compromises on all sides. If we can allow for the different narratives it may open up the space to do that.
IMO that is the most important part of GKs speech. We have yet to hear unionist leadership say anything remotely similar. And until they do, I cant see them moving forward.
Quote from: cadhlancian on August 13, 2013, 05:59:39 AM
Hold on a f**king minute here! For YEARS the Brits / loyalists/ unionists walked all over the top of us, simply because they could . Now, they can't , and it's driving them f**king bonkers. For the best part of 30 years they could march wherever they wanted, ban what they wanted , and get couriered in to shoot whoever the f**k they felt like shooting.
To bring Omagh into this is bullshit. Sinn Fein had and continue to have ZERO affiliation with the real Ira , who committed that horrible attack. As Nally stand correctly pointed out, they weren't going to blow up the town, but sure most of you just regurgitate what you read and hear in the news.
Maguire, I was born and bred in the north, and now live in the USA . I consider myself 100% Irish, every bit as much as yourself! Perhaps if we hadn't been left hanging by the balls 90 years ago by our southern " cousins" we wouldn't have experienced any of these tragedies? What should the people of the north have done? Those who consider themselves as Irish as you. Should they have laid down and have the unionists walk all over them ? Trust me, there were a lot of people killed in obtaining the 26 counties many years ago, to bring up the likes of Kingsmill is horseshit. Why don't you bring up king rat? A police force supposedly protecting us, actually having us killed in our own houses and pubs? Being discriminated against on a daily basis? Shoot to kill policy?
Tell me??
Why are you asking us what you should have done when we can look at history to see what the vast majority of the Nationalist population of the North did do over the years. They didn't join the IRA, that's for sure, and this Shinner revisionism which portrays the Resistance (love the way Gerry Kelly's speech has a capital R, you can be sure he says it in his own mind as well) as being representative of all of the Nationalist population needs to be countered at every opportunity. Because it is a lie.
Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 13, 2013, 11:44:56 AM
Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.
Apples sometimes you talk a lot of sense. ;)
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 13, 2013, 11:44:56 AM
Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.
That's an interesting post and you say many sensible things, but can you explain to me how you think the armed struggle brought the British government to the point where they were willing to force concessions out of Unionism? I can't identify a single point in the conflict when you can say the British got tired of the war. If anything, their strategy was always to tolerate a certain level of death, particularly if it was kept off 'the mainland', rather than make any concessions to 'the men of violence'. Sure, there were lines of communication at various points, but the gap between what they were willing to offer and what the Provos were willing to accept was always too wide (and it was usually the Provos being the all-or-nothing intransigent ones). It got to a point in British politics where the governing class stopped viewing it as a security problem, but that was a product of time as the old guard who grew up with the rhetoric of how Britain was inherently superior because they defeated Hitler faded from the scene rather than war fatigue.
Quote from: deiseach on August 13, 2013, 12:05:14 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 13, 2013, 11:44:56 AM
Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.
That's an interesting post and you say many sensible things, but can you explain to me how you think the armed struggle brought the British government to the point where they were willing to force concessions out of Unionism? I can't identify a single point in the conflict when you can say the British got tired of the war. If anything, their strategy was always to tolerate a certain level of death, particularly if it was kept off 'the mainland', rather than make any concessions to 'the men of violence'. Sure, there were lines of communication at various points, but the gap between what they were willing to offer and what the Provos were willing to accept was always too wide (and it was usually the Provos being the all-or-nothing intransigent ones). It got to a point in British politics where the governing class stopped viewing it as a security problem, but that was a product of time as the old guard who grew up with the rhetoric of how Britain was inherently superior because they defeated Hitler faded from the scene rather than war fatigue.
Canary Wharf
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 13, 2013, 11:44:56 AM
Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.
Nail on head. Excellent post
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 13, 2013, 11:44:56 AM
Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.
The IRA was never, ever part of the solution to the problems you outline in that post. You do not tackle injustice by inflicting injustice on others, and the IRA did precisely that.
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 13, 2013, 12:45:59 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 13, 2013, 11:44:56 AM
Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.
The IRA was never, ever part of the solution to the problems you outline in that post. You do not tackle injustice by inflicting injustice on others, and the IRA did precisely that.
Ah but they also administered justice to others ;)
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 13, 2013, 12:45:59 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 13, 2013, 11:44:56 AM
Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.
The IRA was never, ever part of the solution to the problems you outline in that post. You do not tackle injustice by inflicting injustice on others, and the IRA did precisely that.
gone name me one country in the world were oppression and injustice by a foreign occupying force was not met with violence?
Quote from: HiMucker on August 13, 2013, 01:27:26 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 13, 2013, 12:45:59 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 13, 2013, 11:44:56 AM
Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.
The IRA was never, ever part of the solution to the problems you outline in that post. You do not tackle injustice by inflicting injustice on others, and the IRA did precisely that.
gone name me one country in the world were oppression and injustice by a foreign occupying force was not met with violence?
Good question that.
It is true that the British to a point accepted a level of violence in the north, but credit successive Irish Governments who applied some pressure, not least because at anytime the violence could have spilled South as it did with the Dublin Monaghan bombings. The key however was the "mainland activities". But also bear in mind that talks were going on from the early '70's. Who knows what outcome the Brits would have wished for. Personally I think they were torn between wanting shot of the PUL's as we know them now and guilt for creating the problem in the first place.
Shock horror Myles has a different view that is pro British...
Quote from: HiMucker on August 13, 2013, 01:27:26 PM
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 13, 2013, 12:45:59 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 13, 2013, 11:44:56 AM
Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.
The IRA was never, ever part of the solution to the problems you outline in that post. You do not tackle injustice by inflicting injustice on others, and the IRA did precisely that.
gone name me one country in the world were oppression and injustice by a foreign occupying force was not met with violence?
The 'oppression and injustice' in the north was perpetrated by northern unionists, not by a foreign occupying force. From partition to the start of the troubles in 1969, the worst the British could be accused of was turning a blind eye to the political slum that was the NI state. And if you want to talk about oppression and injustice, why not consider the plight of the African-Americans. Slaves until recent times, routinely jailed, lynched, discriminated against until well into the 20th century. They fought and won their civil rights despite being murdered and beaten off the streets. And they never resorted to so called armed struggle, or used the injustices they suffered as an excuse to murder and maim others.
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 13, 2013, 02:19:06 PM
Shock horror Myles has a different view that is pro British...
Shock horror, it's not being pro British to think that SF and the IRA are a bunch of wankers. Most of the island believes that to be the case.
Myles your first point there is absolutely laughable.
As to your second point about the African Americans struggle, never here anything about Malcolm X, Black Panthers, the LA riots or thousands of other examples. So your below point is balls
"And they never resorted to so called armed struggle, or used the injustices they suffered as an excuse to murder and maim others"
Quote from: EC Unique on August 13, 2013, 10:02:21 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 07:28:01 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 01:14:10 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 12, 2013, 07:40:19 PM
"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.
Ok then, give us your spin.
They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.
Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.
At that stage what was the alternative? Roll over and live as second class citizens? Be completely dominated by Unionism? No harm but you obviously have no clue whatsoever what went on up here in the 70s and 80s.
As someone else has posted, the vast majority opted for an alternative: not killing (or supporting the killing of) people.
And i've a fair idea of what happened in NI in the 70s and 80s. I didn't experience the 70s first hand (there are probably plenty on either side of this debate who didn't) and I didn't live on the Falls Road or the Bogside, but I have lived in NI since the 80s. Although even if I hadn't, the fact remains that the majority of the 'CNR community' did not support the IRA and its campaign of violence.
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 10:18:05 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 07:28:01 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 01:14:10 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 12, 2013, 07:40:19 PM
"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.
Ok then, give us your spin.
They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.
Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.
Or maybe nobody might have been killed at all. Who knows. Such is the reality of war. And sure if it wasn't for the realities of war, Monaghan would be one of 32 counties under British rule right now. But sure at last absolutely no innocents were killed in that war eh?
I thought you didn't do whataboutery?
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 10:18:05 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 07:28:01 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 01:14:10 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 12, 2013, 07:40:19 PM
"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.
Ok then, give us your spin.
They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.
Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.
Or maybe nobody might have been killed at all. Who knows. Such is the reality of war. And sure if it wasn't for the realities of war, Monaghan would be one of 32 counties under British rule right now. But sure at last absolutely no innocents were killed in that war eh?
I thought you didn't do whataboutery?
Whatboutery? You were using a hypothetical outcome of an attack which never took place. My reply was far removed from whatboutery!!! Way to avoid my point though
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 13, 2013, 11:44:56 AM
Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.
Alot of that post misses the point though. How can SF complain (rightfully) about the OO parading all year long and then go marching in reply? How is that not hypocritical?
Quote from: trileacman on August 13, 2013, 06:49:03 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 13, 2013, 11:44:56 AM
Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.
Alot of that post misses the point though. How can SF complain (rightfully) about the OO parading all year long and then go marching in reply? How is that not hypocritical?
Was thinking the same myself. 'The prods got it all their own way for years now we can have our own parades and play dress up'. Makes no sense to me.
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 05:48:45 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 13, 2013, 10:02:21 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 07:28:01 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 01:14:10 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 12, 2013, 07:40:19 PM
"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.
Ok then, give us your spin.
They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.
Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.
At that stage what was the alternative? Roll over and live as second class citizens? Be completely dominated by Unionism? No harm but you obviously have no clue whatsoever what went on up here in the 70s and 80s.
As someone else has posted, the vast majority opted for an alternative: not killing (or supporting the killing of) people.
And i've a fair idea of what happened in NI in the 70s and 80s. I didn't experience the 70s first hand (there are probably plenty on either side of this debate who didn't) and I didn't live on the Falls Road or the Bogside, but I have lived in NI since the 80s. Although even if I hadn't, the fact remains that the majority of the 'CNR community' did not support the IRA and its campaign of violence.
There were a lot more nationalists supported the armed struggle than you think. A lot supported it but would never admit it. A lot supported it but were afraid to show support.
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 05:56:17 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 10:18:05 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 07:28:01 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 01:14:10 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 12, 2013, 07:40:19 PM
"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.
Ok then, give us your spin.
They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.
Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.
Or maybe nobody might have been killed at all. Who knows. Such is the reality of war. And sure if it wasn't for the realities of war, Monaghan would be one of 32 counties under British rule right now. But sure at last absolutely no innocents were killed in that war eh?
I thought you didn't do whataboutery?
Whatboutery? You were using a hypothetical outcome of an attack which never took place. My reply was far removed from whatboutery!!! Way to avoid my point though
I was referring to you accusing me of whataboutery on the 'being good at politics' discussion. You used it to avoid my question.
But to address your point, maybe people will view the PIRA differently in a few generations, when the victims that weren't killed are no longer alive, and when it isn't as raw. Although the failure of the campaign to deliver its 'Brits out' objective may well mean that it's always considered different to the violence at the start of the last century.
Quote from: HiMucker on August 13, 2013, 05:20:47 PM
Myles your first point there is absolutely laughable.
As to your second point about the African Americans struggle, never here anything about Malcolm X, Black Panthers, the LA riots or thousands of other examples. So your below point is balls
"And they never resorted to so called armed struggle, or used the injustices they suffered as an excuse to murder and maim others"
There were isolated acts of violence, but there was no 'armed struggle' like we saw here. The vast majority of African Americans took the route of non violence espoused by the Civil Rights movement.
Dismissing points as 'absolutely laughable' or 'balls' isn't actually an argument, you do realise that don't you? ::)
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 10:39:11 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 05:56:17 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 10:18:05 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 07:28:01 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 01:14:10 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 12, 2013, 07:40:19 PM
"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.
Ok then, give us your spin.
They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.
Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.
Or maybe nobody might have been killed at all. Who knows. Such is the reality of war. And sure if it wasn't for the realities of war, Monaghan would be one of 32 counties under British rule right now. But sure at last absolutely no innocents were killed in that war eh?
I thought you didn't do whataboutery?
Whatboutery? You were using a hypothetical outcome of an attack which never took place. My reply was far removed from whatboutery!!! Way to avoid my point though
I was referring to you accusing me of whataboutery on the 'being good at politics' discussion. You used it to avoid my question.
But to address your point, maybe people will view the PIRA differently in a few generations, when the victims that weren't killed are no longer alive, and when it isn't as raw. Although the failure of the campaign to deliver its 'Brits out' objective may well mean that it's always considered different to the violence at the start of the last century.
Why would it be?
The violence at the start of the last century never achieved it's objective.
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 13, 2013, 11:44:56 AM
But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact.
That's not a fact, it's an opinion. And a very simplistic one.
It assumes that NI would have continued to exist in a vacuum. The developments in equality across the western world since the 60s and 70s has been staggering. Just as sectarian discrimination was rife here, racial, religious and sexual discrimination were prevalent across Ireland, the UK, USA and any number of other 'developed' countries. In the 60s, there were 'No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish' signs in London - this is no longer acceptable and it's not because of any armed campaign. Similarly discrimination of people on the basis of the sexual orientation was commonplace - again, no longer acceptable, and not because of any armed campaign. The world is a very different place now, compared to the 60s, 70s and even 80s.
As for NI, some issues of inequality were already being addressed, even in the early 70s - such as the establishment of the Housing Executive.
This post is in no way denying that inequality was a serious problem in NI and that Catholics were treated abysmally. My point is that without the IRA's campaign:
1 - we would still have had a civil rights movement
2 - there would have been significant external pressure as the rest of the world embraced the broader equality agenda
3 - the education of the Catholic population would have happened regardless
4 - the demographics would still have eaten away at the Protestant majority
5 - heavy industry, employing a hugely disproportionate number of Protestants, would still have disappeared
To credit the current equality to the IRA campaign suggests that, without it, time would have stood still in NI, it would have operated in a vacuum from the rest of the world, and no other factors (such as those I've noted above) could have played a part.
And that's before we even consider the cost of the IRA campaign, to individuals, society, and even the prospect of unification.
Quote from: ranch on August 13, 2013, 10:53:18 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 10:39:11 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 05:56:17 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 05:49:31 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 10:18:05 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 07:28:01 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 01:14:10 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 12, 2013, 07:40:19 PM
"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.
Ok then, give us your spin.
They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.
Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.
Or maybe nobody might have been killed at all. Who knows. Such is the reality of war. And sure if it wasn't for the realities of war, Monaghan would be one of 32 counties under British rule right now. But sure at last absolutely no innocents were killed in that war eh?
I thought you didn't do whataboutery?
Whatboutery? You were using a hypothetical outcome of an attack which never took place. My reply was far removed from whatboutery!!! Way to avoid my point though
I was referring to you accusing me of whataboutery on the 'being good at politics' discussion. You used it to avoid my question.
But to address your point, maybe people will view the PIRA differently in a few generations, when the victims that weren't killed are no longer alive, and when it isn't as raw. Although the failure of the campaign to deliver its 'Brits out' objective may well mean that it's always considered different to the violence at the start of the last century.
Why would it be?
The violence at the start of the last century never achieved it's objective.
Maybe not its full objective, but something tangible.
Sweet sufferin Jayzus
The civil rights movement were beaten off the streets, outlawed
Only for the IRA and militants fighting fire with fire did the establishment sit up and take notice that we were not beasts of burden for them to use and abuse
As for other examples - hosing exec !!!! That equally handed org !!
The rest likewise ,
That opinion is fine, but completely at odds with our community and many more I knew around the six counties when the colluding forces of Pul /army/ cops/politicians /Brit gov conspired to persecute and oppress the people !
Many nationalists didnt like the actions of the IRA and militants, but they enabled and tolerated them as they saw it was defending our communities.
There were likewise on the Pul side where most stood idly by and enabled the continued persecution of irish catholic nationalists.
Opinions are grand.
Revisionism and revisionism from guesswork is intriguing!
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 14, 2013, 12:31:03 AM
Sweet sufferin Jayzus
The civil rights movement were beaten off the streets, outlawed
Only for the IRA and militants fighting fire with fire did the establishment sit up and take notice that we were not beasts of burden for them to use and abuse
As for other examples - hosing exec !!!! That equally handed org !!
The rest likewise ,
That opinion is fine, but completely at odds with our community and many more I knew around the six counties when the colluding forces of Pul /army/ cops/politicians /Brit gov conspired to persecute and oppress the people !
Many nationalists didnt like the actions of the IRA and militants, but they enabled and tolerated them as they saw it was defending our communities.
There were likewise on the Pul side where most stood idly by and enabled the continued persecution of irish catholic nationalists.
Opinions are grand.
Revisionism and revisionism from guesswork is intriguing!
'Sweet sufferin Jayzus' indeed.
You've managed to dismiss my argument without actually addressing my key point - that NI would not have existed in a vacuum to the rest of the world, unchanged, for 30 years.
When you get a glimpse at the hearts and minds of the PUL do you see a people 'willing' to concede anything to anyone? I don't. Speak to any non Republican pensioner and they'll tell you they we're always like that (troubles or no troubles). The UK government may well have forced their hand (no gaurentees though) but the likes of these parade disputes would still be taking place. They are hate fill and a culturally bankrupt group of people who loathe the thought of parity of esteem with Catholics and in their hearts will never concede to that notion.
I said the UK government 'may' have forced unionists hands but there are still numerous friends of the west with woeful human rights records so I don't think anyone could say that it would have happened without the arm twisting by the Republican movements
Quote from: theskull1 on August 14, 2013, 09:06:16 AM
When you get a glimpse at the hearts and minds of the PUL do you see a people 'willing' to concede anything to anyone? I don't. Speak to any non Republican pensioner and they'll tell you they we're always like that (troubles or no troubles). The UK government may well have forced their hand (no gaurentees though) but the likes of these parade disputes would still be taking place. They are hate fill and a culturally bankrupt group of people who loathe the thought of parity of esteem with Catholics and in their hearts will never concede to that notion.
I said the UK government 'may' have forced unionists hands but there are still numerous friends of the west with woeful human rights records so I don't think anyone could say that it would have happened without the arm twisting by the Republican movements
Talk about a sweeping, not to mention bigoted, statement. So every single PUL person, out of 8 or 9 hundred thousand odd people, is "hate-filled" and from "a culturally bankrupt group of people who loathe the though of parity of esteem"?
No wonder this place is like it is when people hold such views.
Quote from: theskull1 on August 14, 2013, 09:06:16 AM
I said the UK government 'may' have forced unionists hands but there are still numerous friends of the west with woeful human rights records so I don't think anyone could say that it would have happened without the arm twisting by the Republican movements
So the murders of Jean McConville, Jerry McCabe, the Enniskillen bombing, the Omagh bombing and the countless other innocent victims of the Troubles were the price that had to be paid for equality. If those acts were carried out in the name of Irish Catholics then I am shamed to hear they were carried out for my sake. I'm not denying what the IRA did or why but I'm trying to say that it isn't something worth glorifying or celebrating as it was last Sunday in Castlederg. We can remember the causes and reasons of the Troubles without a pipe band marching through a country town, an act as classless and tacky as the scrawling of "UP' THE RA" on city walls.
Quote from: trileacman on August 14, 2013, 09:33:36 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on August 14, 2013, 09:06:16 AM
I said the UK government 'may' have forced unionists hands but there are still numerous friends of the west with woeful human rights records so I don't think anyone could say that it would have happened without the arm twisting by the Republican movements
So the murders of Jean McConville, Jerry McCabe, the Enniskillen bombing, the Omagh bombing and the countless other innocent victims of the Troubles were the price that had to be paid for equality. If those acts were carried out in the name of Irish Catholics then I am shamed to hear they were carried out for my sake. I'm not denying what the IRA did or why but I'm trying to say that it isn't something worth glorifying or celebrating as it was last Sunday in Castlederg. We can remember the causes and reasons of the Troubles without a pipe band marching through a country town, an act as classless and tacky as the scrawling of "UP' THE RA" on city walls.
It was a commemoration, not a celebration. As you well know. But that wouldn't have been misleading or sensationalist enough to say in your post would it?
Just to be clear...when I refer to PUL I refer to political unionists and the loyalists we see out on the streets at the minute. There is a massive number of ordinary 5/8s folk who want nothing to do with either.
I would be closer to the latter's mindset than that of a hard line republicans. Fed up with the lot of them in the current climate. I hope that's clarified things michaelg. If I have referred to PUL incorrectly...I apologise
I was simply answering Maguires assertion that civil right would have happened without the troubles. Nothing to do with whether I'm 'happy' about anything
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 14, 2013, 12:31:03 AM
Sweet sufferin Jayzus
The civil rights movement were beaten off the streets, outlawed
Only for the IRA and militants fighting fire with fire did the establishment sit up and take notice that we were not beasts of burden for them to use and abuse
As for other examples - hosing exec !!!! That equally handed org !!
The rest likewise ,
That opinion is fine, but completely at odds with our community and many more I knew around the six counties when the colluding forces of Pul /army/ cops/politicians /Brit gov conspired to persecute and oppress the people !
Many nationalists didnt like the actions of the IRA and militants, but they enabled and tolerated them as they saw it was defending our communities.
There were likewise on the Pul side where most stood idly by and enabled the continued persecution of irish catholic nationalists.
Opinions are grand.
Revisionism and revisionism from guesswork is intriguing!
As usual, 9 out of 10 for passion and conviction LB, big fat zero for historical accuracy. And what've you got against the Housing Executive? What did they ever do except provide social housing to people on the basis of need, which was a huge improvement on what went before?
In 2008 and 2011 Sinn Féin (via Gerry Adams, Bairbe Di Bruin and Conor Maskey) said that the Belfast RIR homecoming should be limited to a commemoration and religious service. They said that a public march in Belfast City Centre was disrespectful to the relatives who died at the hands of the British Army.
Even the Stoops got in on the act (SDLP councillor Niall Kelly) said the parade would pass through Belfast city centre "which is a shared space and that's not something we're willing to get into."
In 2013 Sinn Féin (via Gerry Kelly) said that no-one will stop them marching through Castlederg centre to commemorate dead freedom fighters.
I think that Gerry K would have been better following the advice of Gerry eile et al. A less public commemoration and service for those that wanted to commemorate the bombers would have been appropriate.
/Jim.
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on August 14, 2013, 01:44:53 PM
In 2008 and 2011 Sinn Féin (via Gerry Adams, Bairbe Di Bruin and Conor Maskey) said that the Belfast RIR homecoming should be limited to a commemoration and religious service. They said that a public march in Belfast City Centre was disrespectful to the relatives who died at the hands of the British Army.
Even the Stoops got in on the act (SDLP councillor Niall Kelly) said the parade would pass through Belfast city centre "which is a shared space and that's not something we're willing to get into."
In 2013 Sinn Féin (via Gerry Kelly) said that no-one will stop them marching through Castlederg centre to commemorate dead freedom fighters.
I think that Gerry K would have been better following the advice of Gerry eile et al. A less public commemoration and service for those that wanted to commemorate the bombers would have been appropriate.
/Jim.
Gerry Kelly never mentioned marching through Castlederg,and SF protested because the RIR in full uniform marched through Belfast,the IRA never marched through Castlederg,because they no longer exist.Big big difference.
Quote from: glens abu on August 14, 2013, 03:16:55 PM
Quote from: Jim_Murphy_74 on August 14, 2013, 01:44:53 PM
In 2008 and 2011 Sinn Féin (via Gerry Adams, Bairbe Di Bruin and Conor Maskey) said that the Belfast RIR homecoming should be limited to a commemoration and religious service. They said that a public march in Belfast City Centre was disrespectful to the relatives who died at the hands of the British Army.
Even the Stoops got in on the act (SDLP councillor Niall Kelly) said the parade would pass through Belfast city centre "which is a shared space and that's not something we're willing to get into."
In 2013 Sinn Féin (via Gerry Kelly) said that no-one will stop them marching through Castlederg centre to commemorate dead freedom fighters.
I think that Gerry K would have been better following the advice of Gerry eile et al. A less public commemoration and service for those that wanted to commemorate the bombers would have been appropriate.
/Jim.
Gerry Kelly never mentioned marching through Castlederg,and SF protested because the RIR in full uniform marched through Belfast,the IRA never marched through Castlederg,because they no longer exist.Big big difference.
There are differences yes, there are also similiarities too. The main one I see is respect for victims.
Surely even those here who supported this march would acknowledge that there could be people genuinely offended by this march? (Not the likes of Arlene and Gregory but people who lost relatives to the IRA (possibly even the two individuals being commemorated))
I can't help a sneaking suspicion that at least some of those involved in this march, as well as Belfast internment march, are motivated as much by proving they can do the same as themumms as they are anxious to commemorate dead volunteers or those internned back in the day.
We all have to tolerate things we don't like but I find a crassness in the fact that all these groups seem to have a need to things in full public glare.
/Jim.
If Castlederg was a cold place for unionists then it would be a Carlsberg
Quote from: Orior on August 14, 2013, 07:43:28 PM
If Castlederg was a cold place for unionists then it would be a Carlsberg
I'm reading Carlsberg every time I see the title of this thread.
Quote from: theskull1 on August 14, 2013, 09:06:16 AM
When you get a glimpse at the hearts and minds of the PUL do you see a people 'willing' to concede anything to anyone? I don't.
Very broad brush - I have plenty of friends / work colleagues in the PU community (if not the L!) that are very decent and reasonable people who would have no time for inequality of the CNR community. If we're talking about the kind of lads highlighted on 'Loyalists Against Democracy', yes, I agree, they wouldn't concede anything to anyone. But they hold very few cards.
Quote from: theskull1 on August 14, 2013, 09:06:16 AM
Speak to any non Republican pensioner and they'll tell you they we're always like that (troubles or no troubles). The UK government may well have forced their hand (no gaurentees though) but the likes of these parade disputes would still be taking place.
As i've said, not only would the British have forced it, but you'd have all the following factors in play:
1 - we would still have had a civil rights movement
2 - there would have been significant external pressure as the rest of the world embraced the broader equality agenda
3 - the education of the Catholic population would have happened regardless
4 - the demographics would still have eaten away at the Protestant majority
5 - heavy industry, employing a hugely disproportionate number of Protestants, would still have disappeared
The PUL community would never have been able to retain their dominance. And as we can see, even with the campaign of violence, we still
do have the parade disputes etc. - if anything it's worse!
Quote from: theskull1 on August 14, 2013, 09:06:16 AM
I said the UK government 'may' have forced unionists hands but there are still numerous friends of the west with woeful human rights records so I don't think anyone could say that it would have happened without the arm twisting by the Republican movements
The difference is that NI is part of the UK, not just a friend of the UK in some distant land - I don't believe it could have been ignored, especially whilst the rest of the western world was embracing equality in terms of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation etc. Also, I don't believe the US would not have ignored a continued civil rights movement.
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 14, 2013, 09:52:33 AM
Quote from: trileacman on August 14, 2013, 09:33:36 AM
Quote from: theskull1 on August 14, 2013, 09:06:16 AM
I said the UK government 'may' have forced unionists hands but there are still numerous friends of the west with woeful human rights records so I don't think anyone could say that it would have happened without the arm twisting by the Republican movements
So the murders of Jean McConville, Jerry McCabe, the Enniskillen bombing, the Omagh bombing and the countless other innocent victims of the Troubles were the price that had to be paid for equality. If those acts were carried out in the name of Irish Catholics then I am shamed to hear they were carried out for my sake. I'm not denying what the IRA did or why but I'm trying to say that it isn't something worth glorifying or celebrating as it was last Sunday in Castlederg. We can remember the causes and reasons of the Troubles without a pipe band marching through a country town, an act as classless and tacky as the scrawling of "UP' THE RA" on city walls.
It was a commemoration, not a celebration. As you well know. But that wouldn't have been misleading or sensationalist enough to say in your post would it?
Well if the call the next PUL parade simply a "commemoration" then yeah sure.
But it seems to me that when the OO do it you call it "celebrating sectarianism" but when we do it is a "commemoration".
When an organisation to which only male Protestants who are the sons of two Protestants can belong to goes on a parade I would think it's fair to say it's celebrating Sectarianism.
Quote from: Rossfan on August 15, 2013, 11:09:41 AM
When an organisation to which only male Protestants who are the sons of two Protestants can belong to goes on a parade I would think it's fair to say it's celebrating Sectarianism.
Then why reach for your sunglasses, flag and lambeg drum and ape the fcukers?
Quote from: trileacman on August 15, 2013, 11:12:19 AM
Quote from: Rossfan on August 15, 2013, 11:09:41 AM
When an organisation to which only male Protestants who are the sons of two Protestants can belong to goes on a parade I would think it's fair to say it's celebrating Sectarianism.
Then why reach for your sunglasses, flag and lambeg drum and ape the fcukers?
Exactly.
I don't though.
Quote from: EC Unique on August 13, 2013, 09:51:28 PM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 05:48:45 PM
Quote from: EC Unique on August 13, 2013, 10:02:21 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 13, 2013, 07:28:01 AM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 13, 2013, 01:14:10 AM
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 12, 2013, 08:49:38 PM
Quote from: Nally Stand on August 12, 2013, 07:40:19 PM
"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.
Ok then, give us your spin.
They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.
Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.
At that stage what was the alternative? Roll over and live as second class citizens? Be completely dominated by Unionism? No harm but you obviously have no clue whatsoever what went on up here in the 70s and 80s.
As someone else has posted, the vast majority opted for an alternative: not killing (or supporting the killing of) people.
And i've a fair idea of what happened in NI in the 70s and 80s. I didn't experience the 70s first hand (there are probably plenty on either side of this debate who didn't) and I didn't live on the Falls Road or the Bogside, but I have lived in NI since the 80s. Although even if I hadn't, the fact remains that the majority of the 'CNR community' did not support the IRA and its campaign of violence.
There were a lot more nationalists supported the armed struggle than you think. A lot supported it but would never admit it. A lot supported it but were afraid to show support.
good point the guys who fought in the 1916 in Dublin were kicked and spat on by irish people after they were arrested. nowadays its nearly impossible to find anyone in Dublin who's grandparents/ancesters "didn't" fight in the gpo.
Quote from: trileacman on August 13, 2013, 06:49:03 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 13, 2013, 11:44:56 AM
Some of the posts on here from our Southern fellow citizens display a complete lack of understanding of the north. I can only assume that they are mainly under 30. My father grew up in an orange state where he was denied employment because of his religion, he was denied running water and sanitation because his orange neighbours would not sign way leaves, he had to live with the Orange Order banging lambegs outside his church through the 40's, 50's and 60's. He had to be deferent to his orange neighbours or take the consequences. I was lucky enough to be born at a time of transition and although I grew up in and lost friends in the troubles, thanks to civil rights, the conflict itself and some astute nationalist leaders I have known better days. But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact. And whilst I sit here behind a key board looking down my nose at grass roots republicans that fact gnaws at my view of the modern Northern Ireland. It is worth remembering that far from wanting equality and parity of esteem a great many PUL/DUP/TUV/OUP supporters would gladly go back to the past. I have no great affinity for Gerry Kelly but a lot of what he said makes sense. And again whilst I do not understand why anyone would want to parody loyalists by parading, we can't have two sets of rules. The comments around the dissidents in Belfast prove the point...We don't want them parading through our city. When will they realise that at c.49% of the population the PUL is now a minority in NI, it is no longer just their city and OWC his heading towards a catholic majority (though not necessarily a UI)...or maybe they do realise and that's the issue.
Alot of that post misses the point though. How can SF complain (rightfully) about the OO parading all year long and then go marching in reply? How is that not hypocritical?
SF only object to OO parades when they coat trail through nationalist areas.
To all the PUL apologists on this board: It would appear that I was wrong that the PUL were being dragged kicking and screaming towards equality...they aren't they have now managed to break free and hurtle backwards to the 1930's at least! Talking about IRA violence in isolation as most of you do is the real simplistic opinion on this thread. Equality would mean recognition of the Irish Language, Flag, GAA culture etc. Where is equality on these issues? As I have stated before I don't see the point in marching, but where is the equality in the PUL & OO marching through our town centres, whether the towns are nationalist, unionist or shared but at the same time blocking nationalists doing like wise. It remains an unpalatable fact that a great many in the PUL community only want a shared unionist future. Just listen to the dancing on a pinhead from Unionist Politicians regarding the denunciation of loyalist violence. Hypocrites it would appear that only nationalist violence cannot be justified.
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 16, 2013, 10:05:26 AM
To all the PUL apologists on this board: It would appear that I was wrong that the PUL were being dragged kicking and screaming towards equality...they aren't they have now managed to break free and hurtle backwards to the 1930's at least! Talking about IRA violence in isolation as most of you do is the real simplistic opinion on this thread. Equality would mean recognition of the Irish Language, Flag, GAA culture etc. Where is equality on these issues? As I have stated before I don't see the point in marching, but where is the equality in the PUL & OO marching through our town centres, whether the towns are nationalist, unionist or shared but at the same time blocking nationalists doing like wise. It remains an unpalatable fact that a great many in the PUL community only want a shared unionist future. Just listen to the dancing on a pinhead from Unionist Politicians regarding the denunciation of loyalist violence. Hypocrites it would appear that only nationalist violence cannot be justified.
The over-riding sentiment of all that is that you don't like the unionists marching through any town centres but seem fit to apolgise for it when our side do it. If you're opposed to marching then going out marching is a pretty poor way of combating it.
Quote from: trileacman on August 16, 2013, 11:57:46 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 16, 2013, 10:05:26 AM
To all the PUL apologists on this board: It would appear that I was wrong that the PUL were being dragged kicking and screaming towards equality...they aren't they have now managed to break free and hurtle backwards to the 1930's at least! Talking about IRA violence in isolation as most of you do is the real simplistic opinion on this thread. Equality would mean recognition of the Irish Language, Flag, GAA culture etc. Where is equality on these issues? As I have stated before I don't see the point in marching, but where is the equality in the PUL & OO marching through our town centres, whether the towns are nationalist, unionist or shared but at the same time blocking nationalists doing like wise. It remains an unpalatable fact that a great many in the PUL community only want a shared unionist future. Just listen to the dancing on a pinhead from Unionist Politicians regarding the denunciation of loyalist violence. Hypocrites it would appear that only nationalist violence cannot be justified.
The over-riding sentiment of all that is that you don't like the unionists marching through any town centres but seem fit to apolgise for it when our side do it. If you're opposed to marching then going out marching is a pretty poor way of combating it.
No actually I don't see the point of marches of a political or sectarian nature. I was simply pointing up the fact that it is hypocritical to insist that the OO can march where they like glorifying sectarianism and anti-catholic views and on the other hand object to republicans doing the same. I also pointed out the silence and selective condemnation when it comes to PUL inspired violence. I would prefer to see no marches but that is probably unrealistic. The overall point I am making is that the PUL community has not grasped what equality or parity of esteem looks like and when faced with a challenge the DUP don't show leadership but pander to the lowest common denominator. Their version of parity is still very much red white in blue in colour. If we are to move on mutual respect for all symbols, cultures and traditions is a must. I just don't see that move coming from Unionism. Critical as I am of SF they do seem to be the voice of reason. I think the SF leadership would have liked to have kept the Castlederg march in Galbally but most likely gave in to local sentiment...I think elements of the DUP made it impossible for SF to back down.
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 16, 2013, 10:05:26 AM
To all the PUL apologists on this board: It would appear that I was wrong that the PUL were being dragged kicking and screaming towards equality...they aren't they have now managed to break free and hurtle backwards to the 1930's at least! Talking about IRA violence in isolation as most of you do is the real simplistic opinion on this thread. Equality would mean recognition of the Irish Language, Flag, GAA culture etc. Where is equality on these issues? As I have stated before I don't see the point in marching, but where is the equality in the PUL & OO marching through our town centres, whether the towns are nationalist, unionist or shared but at the same time blocking nationalists doing like wise. It remains an unpalatable fact that a great many in the PUL community only want a shared unionist future. Just listen to the dancing on a pinhead from Unionist Politicians regarding the denunciation of loyalist violence. Hypocrites it would appear that only nationalist violence cannot be justified.
What's the problem with recognition of the GAA? Isn't Casement getting £60m from Westminster? How many GAA grounds have had financial assistance from Sport NI? What more do you want?
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 16, 2013, 04:05:53 PM
Quote from: trileacman on August 16, 2013, 11:57:46 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 16, 2013, 10:05:26 AM
To all the PUL apologists on this board: It would appear that I was wrong that the PUL were being dragged kicking and screaming towards equality...they aren't they have now managed to break free and hurtle backwards to the 1930's at least! Talking about IRA violence in isolation as most of you do is the real simplistic opinion on this thread. Equality would mean recognition of the Irish Language, Flag, GAA culture etc. Where is equality on these issues? As I have stated before I don't see the point in marching, but where is the equality in the PUL & OO marching through our town centres, whether the towns are nationalist, unionist or shared but at the same time blocking nationalists doing like wise. It remains an unpalatable fact that a great many in the PUL community only want a shared unionist future. Just listen to the dancing on a pinhead from Unionist Politicians regarding the denunciation of loyalist violence. Hypocrites it would appear that only nationalist violence cannot be justified.
The over-riding sentiment of all that is that you don't like the unionists marching through any town centres but seem fit to apolgise for it when our side do it. If you're opposed to marching then going out marching is a pretty poor way of combating it.
No actually I don't see the point of marches of a political or sectarian nature. I was simply pointing up the fact that it is hypocritical to insist that the OO can march where they like glorifying sectarianism and anti-catholic views and on the other hand object to republicans doing the same. I also pointed out the silence and selective condemnation when it comes to PUL inspired violence. I would prefer to see no marches but that is probably unrealistic. The overall point I am making is that the PUL community has not grasped what equality or parity of esteem looks like and when faced with a challenge the DUP don't show leadership but pander to the lowest common denominator. Their version of parity is still very much red white in blue in colour. If we are to move on mutual respect for all symbols, cultures and traditions is a must. I just don't see that move coming from Unionism. Critical as I am of SF they do seem to be the voice of reason. I think the SF leadership would have liked to have kept the Castlederg march in Galbally but most likely gave in to local sentiment...I think elements of the DUP made it impossible for SF to back down.
Who is insisting that the OO can march where they like? Find me one quote of that anywhere in here!
Quote from: Myles Na G. on August 14, 2013, 12:22:14 PM
Quote from: lynchbhoy on August 14, 2013, 12:31:03 AM
Sweet sufferin Jayzus
The civil rights movement were beaten off the streets, outlawed
Only for the IRA and militants fighting fire with fire did the establishment sit up and take notice that we were not beasts of burden for them to use and abuse
As for other examples - hosing exec !!!! That equally handed org !!
The rest likewise ,
That opinion is fine, but completely at odds with our community and many more I knew around the six counties when the colluding forces of Pul /army/ cops/politicians /Brit gov conspired to persecute and oppress the people !
Many nationalists didnt like the actions of the IRA and militants, but they enabled and tolerated them as they saw it was defending our communities.
There were likewise on the Pul side where most stood idly by and enabled the continued persecution of irish catholic nationalists.
Opinions are grand.
Revisionism and revisionism from guesswork is intriguing!
As usual, 9 out of 10 for passion and conviction LB, big fat zero for historical accuracy. And what've you got against the Housing Executive? What did they ever do except provide social housing to people on the basis of need, which was a huge improvement on what went before?
As accurate as personal experience can be in all the other items apart from housing exec - thankfully I never had to rely on them - but close friends mostly ( not all) hadn't much good to say about their and the is bias.
At least your experience ( though from a unionist perspective) is first hand.
Many others are guessing!!
Quote from: trileacman on August 16, 2013, 05:49:16 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 16, 2013, 04:05:53 PM
Quote from: trileacman on August 16, 2013, 11:57:46 AM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 16, 2013, 10:05:26 AM
To all the PUL apologists on this board: It would appear that I was wrong that the PUL were being dragged kicking and screaming towards equality...they aren't they have now managed to break free and hurtle backwards to the 1930's at least! Talking about IRA violence in isolation as most of you do is the real simplistic opinion on this thread. Equality would mean recognition of the Irish Language, Flag, GAA culture etc. Where is equality on these issues? As I have stated before I don't see the point in marching, but where is the equality in the PUL & OO marching through our town centres, whether the towns are nationalist, unionist or shared but at the same time blocking nationalists doing like wise. It remains an unpalatable fact that a great many in the PUL community only want a shared unionist future. Just listen to the dancing on a pinhead from Unionist Politicians regarding the denunciation of loyalist violence. Hypocrites it would appear that only nationalist violence cannot be justified.
The over-riding sentiment of all that is that you don't like the unionists marching through any town centres but seem fit to apolgise for it when our side do it. If you're opposed to marching then going out marching is a pretty poor way of combating it.
No actually I don't see the point of marches of a political or sectarian nature. I was simply pointing up the fact that it is hypocritical to insist that the OO can march where they like glorifying sectarianism and anti-catholic views and on the other hand object to republicans doing the same. I also pointed out the silence and selective condemnation when it comes to PUL inspired violence. I would prefer to see no marches but that is probably unrealistic. The overall point I am making is that the PUL community has not grasped what equality or parity of esteem looks like and when faced with a challenge the DUP don't show leadership but pander to the lowest common denominator. Their version of parity is still very much red white in blue in colour. If we are to move on mutual respect for all symbols, cultures and traditions is a must. I just don't see that move coming from Unionism. Critical as I am of SF they do seem to be the voice of reason. I think the SF leadership would have liked to have kept the Castlederg march in Galbally but most likely gave in to local sentiment...I think elements of the DUP made it impossible for SF to back down.
Who is insisting that the OO can march where they like? Find me one quote of that anywhere in here!
You haven't heard the old "Queen's Highway" line...look back at any of Harold Gracey's pronouncements during Drumcree and you will find it repeated at every standoff. It is a fact that the OO insist on their right to parade.
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 16, 2013, 04:50:28 PM
Quote from: Applesisapples on August 16, 2013, 10:05:26 AM
To all the PUL apologists on this board: It would appear that I was wrong that the PUL were being dragged kicking and screaming towards equality...they aren't they have now managed to break free and hurtle backwards to the 1930's at least! Talking about IRA violence in isolation as most of you do is the real simplistic opinion on this thread. Equality would mean recognition of the Irish Language, Flag, GAA culture etc. Where is equality on these issues? As I have stated before I don't see the point in marching, but where is the equality in the PUL & OO marching through our town centres, whether the towns are nationalist, unionist or shared but at the same time blocking nationalists doing like wise. It remains an unpalatable fact that a great many in the PUL community only want a shared unionist future. Just listen to the dancing on a pinhead from Unionist Politicians regarding the denunciation of loyalist violence. Hypocrites it would appear that only nationalist violence cannot be justified.
What's the problem with recognition of the GAA? Isn't Casement getting £60m from Westminster? How many GAA grounds have had financial assistance from Sport NI? What more do you want?
Yes the GAA is recognized officially, but it is not accepted by a significant number of the PUL community as a bon-a-fide sporting and cultural body.
Quote from: Maguire01 on August 14, 2013, 08:37:12 PM
Quote from: theskull1 on August 14, 2013, 09:06:16 AM
When you get a glimpse at the hearts and minds of the PUL do you see a people 'willing' to concede anything to anyone? I don't.
Very broad brush - I have plenty of friends / work colleagues in the PU community (if not the L!) that are very decent and reasonable people who would have no time for inequality of the CNR community. If we're talking about the kind of lads highlighted on 'Loyalists Against Democracy', yes, I agree, they wouldn't concede anything to anyone. But they hold very few cards.
Quote from: theskull1 on August 14, 2013, 09:06:16 AM
Speak to any non Republican pensioner and they'll tell you they we're always like that (troubles or no troubles). The UK government may well have forced their hand (no gaurentees though) but the likes of these parade disputes would still be taking place.
As i've said, not only would the British have forced it, but you'd have all the following factors in play:
1 - we would still have had a civil rights movement
2 - there would have been significant external pressure as the rest of the world embraced the broader equality agenda
3 - the education of the Catholic population would have happened regardless
4 - the demographics would still have eaten away at the Protestant majority
5 - heavy industry, employing a hugely disproportionate number of Protestants, would still have disappeared
The PUL community would never have been able to retain their dominance. And as we can see, even with the campaign of violence, we still do have the parade disputes etc. - if anything it's worse!
Quote from: theskull1 on August 14, 2013, 09:06:16 AM
I said the UK government 'may' have forced unionists hands but there are still numerous friends of the west with woeful human rights records so I don't think anyone could say that it would have happened without the arm twisting by the Republican movements
The difference is that NI is part of the UK, not just a friend of the UK in some distant land - I don't believe it could have been ignored, especially whilst the rest of the western world was embracing equality in terms of race, religion, gender, sexual orientation etc. Also, I don't believe the US would not have ignored a continued civil rights movement.
Yes education of the catholic population would always have happened, but to gain employment they'd have had to leave these shores and would have impacted on your point 4.
Heavy industry has mostly disappeared but these people would have been absorbed into other services industries government bodies and lets not forget the large employer that is the civil service also was disproportionate in its make up every bit as much as Harland and Wolfe.
Sadly I don't think the transition we've experienced to date, imperfect and all that it is would have happened as quickly without some of the terrible things that happened along the way. I'm not condoning it, but I think you'd be wrong to believe the Civil Rights movement alone would have survived long with how it was initially treated by our neighbours and British establishment.
Im hearing rumours of a huge republican rally/commemoration planned for newtownhamilton soon. Right in wullie country and just after the town was the venue for this years armagh twelfth. Should be a cracker and handyt
I see Derek Hussey was spouting his usual sectarian dung recently there and just remembered that a few months ago he was charged with drink driving for the third time - has he been convicted yet? Would be great to see him thrown into jail and kicked out of his party.