Castlederg

[Myles Na G.]

Myles your first point there is absolutely laughable.
As to your second point about the African Americans struggle, never here anything about Malcolm X, Black Panthers, the LA riots or thousands of other examples.  So your below point is balls
"And they never resorted to so called armed struggle, or used the injustices they suffered as an excuse to murder and maim others"

There were isolated acts of violence, but there was no 'armed struggle' like we saw here. The vast majority of African Americans took the route of non violence espoused by the Civil Rights movement.
Dismissing points as 'absolutely laughable' or 'balls' isn't actually an argument, you do realise that don't you? 

[ranch]

"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.

Ok then, give us your spin.

They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.

Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.

Or maybe nobody might have been killed at all. Who knows. Such is the reality of war. And sure if it wasn't for the realities of war, Monaghan would be one of 32 counties under British rule right now. But sure at last absolutely no innocents were killed in that war eh?

I thought you didn't do whataboutery?

Whatboutery? You were using a hypothetical outcome of an attack which never took place. My reply was far removed from whatboutery!!! Way to avoid my point though

I was referring to you accusing me of whataboutery on the 'being good at politics' discussion. You used it to avoid my question.

But to address your point, maybe people will view the PIRA differently in a few generations, when the victims that weren't killed are no longer alive, and when it isn't as raw. Although the failure of the campaign to deliver its 'Brits out' objective may well mean that it's always considered different to the violence at the start of the last century.

Why would it be?
The violence at the start of the last century never achieved it's objective.

[Maguire01]

But opposed to violence as I and most catholics were and are it has to be acknowledged that this PUL which is being drag kicking and screaming towards equality would not have given 1 inch to the catholic community had it not been for the conflict forcing the British Government's hand. That is an unpalatable fact.

That's not a fact, it's an opinion. And a very simplistic one.

It assumes that NI would have continued to exist in a vacuum. The developments in equality across the western world since the 60s and 70s has been staggering. Just as sectarian discrimination was rife here, racial, religious and sexual discrimination were prevalent across Ireland, the UK, USA and any number of other 'developed' countries. In the 60s, there were 'No Blacks, No Dogs, No Irish' signs in London - this is no longer acceptable and it's not because of any armed campaign. Similarly discrimination of people on the basis of the sexual orientation was commonplace - again, no longer acceptable, and not because of any armed campaign. The world is a very different place now, compared to the 60s, 70s and even 80s.

As for NI, some issues of inequality were already being addressed, even in the early 70s - such as the establishment of the Housing Executive.

This post is in no way denying that inequality was a serious problem in NI and that Catholics were treated abysmally. My point is that without the IRA's campaign:
1 - we would still have had a civil rights movement
2 - there would have been significant external pressure as the rest of the world embraced the broader equality agenda
3 - the education of the Catholic population would have happened regardless
4 - the demographics would still have eaten away at the Protestant majority
5 - heavy industry, employing a hugely disproportionate number of Protestants, would still have disappeared

To credit the current equality to the IRA campaign suggests that, without it, time would have stood still in NI, it would have operated in a vacuum from the rest of the world, and no other factors (such as those I've noted above) could have played a part.

And that's before we even consider the cost of the IRA campaign, to individuals, society, and even the prospect of unification.

[Maguire01]

"On their way to blow up a town". Good to see you're avoiding sensationalism there Maguire.

Ok then, give us your spin.

They were on their way to bomb a border customs point. This is not spin. Saying they were trying to "blow up a town" is spin.

Right, so they were going to blow up part of a town. Or a post near a town. They were probably going to kill a few people in the process. Or maybe more than a few. Possibly including civilians. Who knows, maybe even children. Either way, they were on a mission of destruction.

Or maybe nobody might have been killed at all. Who knows. Such is the reality of war. And sure if it wasn't for the realities of war, Monaghan would be one of 32 counties under British rule right now. But sure at last absolutely no innocents were killed in that war eh?

I thought you didn't do whataboutery?

Whatboutery? You were using a hypothetical outcome of an attack which never took place. My reply was far removed from whatboutery!!! Way to avoid my point though

I was referring to you accusing me of whataboutery on the 'being good at politics' discussion. You used it to avoid my question.

But to address your point, maybe people will view the PIRA differently in a few generations, when the victims that weren't killed are no longer alive, and when it isn't as raw. Although the failure of the campaign to deliver its 'Brits out' objective may well mean that it's always considered different to the violence at the start of the last century.

Why would it be?
The violence at the start of the last century never achieved it's objective.

Maybe not its full objective, but something tangible.

[lynchbhoy]

Sweet sufferin Jayzus
The civil rights movement were beaten off the streets, outlawed
Only for the IRA and militants fighting fire with fire did the establishment sit up and take notice that we were not beasts of burden for them to use and abuse

As for other examples - hosing exec !!!! That equally handed org !!
The rest likewise ,
That opinion is fine, but completely at odds with our community and many more I knew around the six counties when the colluding forces of  Pul /army/ cops/politicians /Brit gov conspired to persecute and oppress the people !
Many nationalists didnt like the actions of the IRA and militants, but they enabled and tolerated them as they saw it was defending our communities.

There were likewise on the Pul side where most stood idly by and enabled the continued persecution of irish catholic nationalists.

Opinions are grand.
Revisionism and revisionism from guesswork is intriguing!

[Maguire01]

Sweet sufferin Jayzus
The civil rights movement were beaten off the streets, outlawed
Only for the IRA and militants fighting fire with fire did the establishment sit up and take notice that we were not beasts of burden for them to use and abuse

As for other examples - hosing exec !!!! That equally handed org !!
The rest likewise ,
That opinion is fine, but completely at odds with our community and many more I knew around the six counties when the colluding forces of  Pul /army/ cops/politicians /Brit gov conspired to persecute and oppress the people !
Many nationalists didnt like the actions of the IRA and militants, but they enabled and tolerated them as they saw it was defending our communities.

There were likewise on the Pul side where most stood idly by and enabled the continued persecution of irish catholic nationalists.

Opinions are grand.
Revisionism and revisionism from guesswork is intriguing!

'Sweet sufferin Jayzus' indeed.
You've managed to dismiss my argument without actually addressing my key point - that NI would not have existed in a vacuum to the rest of the world, unchanged, for 30 years.

[theskull1]

When you get a glimpse at the hearts and minds of the PUL do you see a people 'willing' to concede anything to anyone? I don't. Speak to any non Republican pensioner and they'll tell you they we're always like that (troubles or no troubles). The UK government may well have forced their hand (no gaurentees though) but the likes of these parade disputes would still be taking place. They are hate fill and a culturally bankrupt group of people who loathe the thought of parity of esteem with Catholics and in their hearts will never concede to that notion.

I said the UK government 'may' have forced unionists hands but there are still numerous friends of the west with woeful human rights records so I don't think anyone could say that it would have happened without the arm twisting by the Republican movements

[michaelg]

When you get a glimpse at the hearts and minds of the PUL do you see a people 'willing' to concede anything to anyone? I don't. Speak to any non Republican pensioner and they'll tell you they we're always like that (troubles or no troubles). The UK government may well have forced their hand (no gaurentees though) but the likes of these parade disputes would still be taking place. They are hate fill and a culturally bankrupt group of people who loathe the thought of parity of esteem with Catholics and in their hearts will never concede to that notion.

I said the UK government 'may' have forced unionists hands but there are still numerous friends of the west with woeful human rights records so I don't think anyone could say that it would have happened without the arm twisting by the Republican movements

Talk about a sweeping, not to mention bigoted, statement.  So every single PUL person, out of 8 or 9 hundred thousand odd people, is "hate-filled" and from "a culturally bankrupt group of people who loathe the though of parity of esteem"? 

No wonder this place is like it is when people hold such views.

[trileacman]

I said the UK government 'may' have forced unionists hands but there are still numerous friends of the west with woeful human rights records so I don't think anyone could say that it would have happened without the arm twisting by the Republican movements

So the murders of Jean McConville, Jerry McCabe, the Enniskillen bombing, the Omagh bombing and the countless other innocent victims of the Troubles were the price that had to be paid for equality. If those acts were carried out in the name of Irish Catholics then I am shamed to hear they were carried out for my sake. I'm not denying what the IRA did or why but I'm trying to say that it isn't something worth glorifying or celebrating as it was last Sunday in Castlederg. We can remember the causes and reasons of the Troubles without a pipe band marching through a country town, an act as classless and tacky as the scrawling of "UP' THE RA" on city walls.

[Nally Stand]

I said the UK government 'may' have forced unionists hands but there are still numerous friends of the west with woeful human rights records so I don't think anyone could say that it would have happened without the arm twisting by the Republican movements

So the murders of Jean McConville, Jerry McCabe, the Enniskillen bombing, the Omagh bombing and the countless other innocent victims of the Troubles were the price that had to be paid for equality. If those acts were carried out in the name of Irish Catholics then I am shamed to hear they were carried out for my sake. I'm not denying what the IRA did or why but I'm trying to say that it isn't something worth glorifying or celebrating as it was last Sunday in Castlederg. We can remember the causes and reasons of the Troubles without a pipe band marching through a country town, an act as classless and tacky as the scrawling of "UP' THE RA" on city walls.

It was a commemoration, not a celebration. As you well know. But that wouldn't have been misleading or sensationalist enough to say in your post would it?

[theskull1]

Just to be clear...when I refer to PUL I refer to political unionists and the loyalists we see out on the streets at the minute. There is a massive number of ordinary 5/8s folk who want nothing to do with either.

I would be closer to the latter's mindset than that of a hard line republicans. Fed up with the lot of them in the current climate. I hope that's clarified things michaelg. If I have referred to PUL incorrectly...I apologise

I was simply answering Maguires assertion that civil right would have happened without the troubles. Nothing to do with whether  I'm 'happy' about anything

[Myles Na G.]

Sweet sufferin Jayzus
The civil rights movement were beaten off the streets, outlawed
Only for the IRA and militants fighting fire with fire did the establishment sit up and take notice that we were not beasts of burden for them to use and abuse

As for other examples - hosing exec !!!! That equally handed org !!
The rest likewise ,
That opinion is fine, but completely at odds with our community and many more I knew around the six counties when the colluding forces of  Pul /army/ cops/politicians /Brit gov conspired to persecute and oppress the people !
Many nationalists didnt like the actions of the IRA and militants, but they enabled and tolerated them as they saw it was defending our communities.

There were likewise on the Pul side where most stood idly by and enabled the continued persecution of irish catholic nationalists.

Opinions are grand.
Revisionism and revisionism from guesswork is intriguing!

As usual, 9 out of 10 for passion and conviction LB, big fat zero for historical accuracy. And what've you got against the Housing Executive? What did they ever do except provide social housing to people on the basis of need, which was a huge improvement on what went before?

[Jim_Murphy_74]

In 2008 and 2011 Sinn Féin (via Gerry Adams, Bairbe Di Bruin and Conor Maskey) said that the Belfast RIR homecoming should be limited to a commemoration and religious service.  They said that a public march in Belfast City Centre was disrespectful to the relatives who died at the hands of the British Army.

Even the Stoops got in on the act (SDLP councillor Niall Kelly) said the parade would pass through Belfast city centre "which is a shared space and that's not something we're willing to get into."

In 2013 Sinn Féin (via Gerry Kelly) said that no-one will stop them marching through Castlederg centre to commemorate dead freedom fighters.

I think that Gerry K would have been better following the advice of Gerry eile et al.  A less public commemoration and service for those that wanted to commemorate the bombers would have been appropriate.

/Jim.

[glens abu]

In 2008 and 2011 Sinn Féin (via Gerry Adams, Bairbe Di Bruin and Conor Maskey) said that the Belfast RIR homecoming should be limited to a commemoration and religious service.  They said that a public march in Belfast City Centre was disrespectful to the relatives who died at the hands of the British Army.

Even the Stoops got in on the act (SDLP councillor Niall Kelly) said the parade would pass through Belfast city centre "which is a shared space and that's not something we're willing to get into."

In 2013 Sinn Féin (via Gerry Kelly) said that no-one will stop them marching through Castlederg centre to commemorate dead freedom fighters.



I think that Gerry K would have been better following the advice of Gerry eile et al.  A less public commemoration and service for those that wanted to commemorate the bombers would have been appropriate.

/Jim.

Gerry Kelly never mentioned marching through Castlederg,and SF protested because the RIR in full uniform marched through Belfast,the IRA never marched through Castlederg,because they no longer exist.Big big difference.

[Jim_Murphy_74]

In 2008 and 2011 Sinn Féin (via Gerry Adams, Bairbe Di Bruin and Conor Maskey) said that the Belfast RIR homecoming should be limited to a commemoration and religious service.  They said that a public march in Belfast City Centre was disrespectful to the relatives who died at the hands of the British Army.

Even the Stoops got in on the act (SDLP councillor Niall Kelly) said the parade would pass through Belfast city centre "which is a shared space and that's not something we're willing to get into."

In 2013 Sinn Féin (via Gerry Kelly) said that no-one will stop them marching through Castlederg centre to commemorate dead freedom fighters.



I think that Gerry K would have been better following the advice of Gerry eile et al.  A less public commemoration and service for those that wanted to commemorate the bombers would have been appropriate.

/Jim.

Gerry Kelly never mentioned marching through Castlederg,and SF protested because the RIR in full uniform marched through Belfast,the IRA never marched through Castlederg,because they no longer exist.Big big difference.

There are differences yes, there are also similiarities too.  The main one I see is respect for victims. 

Surely even those here who supported this march would acknowledge that there could be people genuinely offended by this march?  (Not the likes of Arlene and Gregory but people who lost relatives to the IRA (possibly even the two individuals being commemorated))

I can't help a sneaking suspicion that at least some of those involved in this march, as well as Belfast internment march, are motivated as much by proving they can do the same as themumms as they are anxious to commemorate dead volunteers or those internned back in the day.

We all have to tolerate things we don't like but I find a crassness in the fact that all these groups seem to have a need to things in full public glare. 

/Jim.