gaaboard.com

Fr Mulvey in Strabane built the Chapel, Community centre and Melmount Community Care.

The man who performed the ceremony of marriage for my wife and I, he is a good priest.

I happened to be at his ordination in St Peters many years before I got married, at a time when I thought I had a vocation to the priesthood.  He is now in a different parish from the one I got married in and I haven't seen him in a while but I miss him.  Mass in that parish just isn't the same any more without him as he had been there for a long time and knew everyone

On a direct basis not a whole lot, parish wise the late Monsignor Shields was involved in an extension for a local school and the building of the parish centre.

At the early age of thirty-eight, my mother said, Go west!
Get up, says she, And get a job! Says I, I'll do my best
I pulled on my wellingtons to march to Kiltimagh
But I took a wrong turn in Charlestown and I ended up in Knock
Once this quiet crossroads was a place of gentle prayer
Where Catholics got indulgent once or twice a year
You could buy a pair of rosary beads or get your candles blessed
If you had a guilty conscience you could get it off your chest
Then came the priest from Partry, Father Horan was his name
Ever since he's been appointed Knock has never been the same
Begod, says Jim, 'Tis eighty years since Mary was adout
'Tis time for another miracle, and he blew the candle out
From Fatima to Bethlehem and from Lourdes to Kiltimagh
I've never seen a miracle like the airport up in Knock
And to establish terra firma he drew up a ten year plan
And he started running bingo around nineteen sixty-one
He built a fabulous basilica upon the Holy Ground
And once he had a focal point he started to expand
Chip shops and bed and breakfasts sprung up overnight
Once a place for quiet retreat, now it's a holy sight
All sorts of fancy restaurants for every race and creed
Where black and white and yellow pilgrims could get a mighty feed
We had the Blessed Virgin here, Father Horan did declare
And Foster and Allen, they appeared just over there
Now do you mean to tell me, says he in total shock
That I am not entitled to an auld airport here in Knock
The TDs were lobbied and harrassed with talk of promised votes
And people who'd been loyal for years spoke of changing coats
Excommunication was threatened upon the flock
Who said it was abortive building airports up in Knock
Now everyone is happy and the miracle it's complete
Father Horan's got his auld runway - and it's eighteen thousand feet
All sorts of planes could land there, of that there's little doubt
It'll be handy now for George Bush to knock Gadafi out
From Fatima to Bethlehem and from Lourdes to Kiltimagh
I've never seen a miracle like the airport up in Knock
Now poor old Father Jim is gone to the airport in the sky
And down on Barr na Cuiga he keeps a friendly eye
On Ryanair and Aer Lingus as they fly to and fro
We'll never see his likes again on the planes of sweet Mayo
Did NATO donate the dough, my boys, did NATO donate the dough
Did NATO donate the dough, my boys, did NATO donate the dough
From Fatima to Bethlehem and from Lourdes to Kiltimagh
I've never seen a miracle like the airport up in Knock

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 17, 2010, 11:08:11 PM
Fr Mulvey in Strabane built the Chapel, Community centre and Melmount Community Care.

He was also fearless in speaking out against RUC harrasment in the 80's GDA when others in the same town were not so vocal, the present incumbent there is also a good man, Fr Doc - well respected by everyone who knows him.

Pathetic thread because the church is under the coshe for child abuse and cover ups. I don't think anyone is saying there aren't good priests. I know quite  a few and good teachers, electricians, solicitors, shop keepers.... 

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 17, 2010, 11:08:11 PM
Fr Mulvey in Strabane built the Chapel, Community centre and Melmount Community Care.

All with his own money?

He certainly was a good priest.

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 18, 2010, 10:35:07 AM
Pathetic thread because the church is under the coshe for child abuse and cover ups. I don't think anyone is saying therr aren't good priests. I know quite  a few and good teachers, electricians, solicitors, shop keepers.... 

You seem to think you are the moral arbiter of this board, if it is pathetic please ignore.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 18, 2010, 10:36:59 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 18, 2010, 10:35:07 AM
Pathetic thread because the church is under the coshe for child abuse and cover ups. I don't think anyone is saying therr aren't good priests. I know quite  a few and good teachers, electricians, solicitors, shop keepers.... 

You seem to think you are the moral arbiter of this board, if it is pathetic please ignore.

Shouldnt you be on the brady thread defending cardinal Daly?

Quote from: pintsofguinness on March 18, 2010, 10:49:24 AM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 18, 2010, 10:36:59 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 18, 2010, 10:35:07 AM
Pathetic thread because the church is under the coshe for child abuse and cover ups. I don't think anyone is saying therr aren't good priests. I know quite  a few and good teachers, electricians, solicitors, shop keepers.... 

You seem to think you are the moral arbiter of this board, if it is pathetic please ignore.

Shouldnt you be on the brady thread defending cardinal Daly?

A cursory glance through that thread and you will see I said he has to go.
What exactly was your point?  That question can probably apply to 95% of your posts on here though in fairness.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on March 18, 2010, 10:49:24 AM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 18, 2010, 10:36:59 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 18, 2010, 10:35:07 AM
Pathetic thread because the church is under the coshe for child abuse and cover ups. I don't think anyone is saying therr aren't good priests. I know quite  a few and good teachers, electricians, solicitors, shop keepers.... 

You seem to think you are the moral arbiter of this board, if it is pathetic please ignore.

Shouldnt you be on the brady thread defending cardinal Daly?

It was Cardinal Brady too by the way, Daly died last year.

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 18, 2010, 10:35:07 AM
Pathetic thread because the church is under the coshe for child abuse and cover ups. I don't think anyone is saying there aren't good priests. I know quite  a few and good teachers, electricians, solicitors, shop keepers....

Not pathetic at all. Just showing that the CC and priests aren't all bad. Are people not allowed to show another side to the priests other than the one currently under scrunity? There should be balance to any argument. No one is going to be saying that these things are going to make up for what has happened within the CC. But it can show that not everything the CC has done was evil.

Quote from: supersarsfields on March 18, 2010, 10:57:49 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 18, 2010, 10:35:07 AM
Pathetic thread because the church is under the coshe for child abuse and cover ups. I don't think anyone is saying there aren't good priests. I know quite  a few and good teachers, electricians, solicitors, shop keepers....

Not pathetic at all. Just showing that the CC and priests aren't all bad. Are people not allowed to show another side to the priests other than the one currently under scrunity? There should be balance to any argument. No one is going to be saying that these things are going to make up for what has happened within the CC. But it can show that not everything the CC has done was evil.

Who's saying all priests are bad?

Not sure pints. But sure this thread is just pointing out that there are some priests that have done hugh amounts of good. Should this not be highlighted when the CC is getting ripped to shreds (Rightly so IMO)?

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 18, 2010, 10:36:59 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 18, 2010, 10:35:07 AM
Pathetic thread because the church is under the coshe for child abuse and cover ups. I don't think anyone is saying therr aren't good priests. I know quite  a few and good teachers, electricians, solicitors, shop keepers.... 

You seem to think you are the moral arbiter of this board, if it is pathetic please ignore.

Look at the trouble ignoring has caused up to now  ;)

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 18, 2010, 10:21:03 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 17, 2010, 11:08:11 PM
Fr Mulvey in Strabane built the Chapel, Community centre and Melmount Community Care.

He was also fearless in speaking out against RUC harrasment in the 80's GDA when others in the same town were not so vocal, the present incumbent there is also a good man, Fr Doc - well respected by everyone who knows him.

Father Doc has the uncanny knack of being able to relate to everyone in Strabane regardless of their age.  Quite different from his immediate predecessor. 

Quote from: supersarsfields on March 18, 2010, 11:06:57 AM
Not sure pints. But sure this thread is just pointing out that there are some priests that have done hugh amounts of good. Should this not be highlighted when the CC is getting ripped to shreds (Rightly so IMO)?

I dont see any point, no one is saying all priests are bad and considering previous comments on the child abuse scandal from the drunk who started the thread I suspect his motives aren't just about demonstrating there are good priests. 

If there were some stories about a doctor or solicitor or teacher in the news where they've done wrong we wouldn't all start threads about the good doctors/solicitors/teachers me know.

For what its worth I know more good priests than bad. The timing of this thread seems to imply that there is something unfair about exposing Paedophilles and there protectors within the catholic church and that this is some attempt to balance this up. I don't believe anyone anywhere said all priests were bad and are responsible. For that reason I do believe the motive behind this thread is indeed a pathetic attempt by a poster who tends only to post on these grave matters when he is full of drink.

But it's the Catholic Church that is rightly so getting hammered for what it has done. Surely you can understand how priests that weren't involved in the crimes committed and that knew nothing about it are feeling at the minute. Alot of people are tarring all priests with the crimes. Which as this thread ( I hope) was started to show that some have done great work for their community.
I know what your saying regarding if a solicitor or accountant did this there wouldn't be the same defence, and your right. But I believe priests are more closely linked with the CC than say a Solicitor is with the law society. If the law society as a whole were getting bad press I don't think too many individual solicitors would be too worried unless they were mentioned themselves. I don't think priests think like that. Maybe it's the vocation side of things that makes the link closer, I genuinely don't know but that's my views on it anyway.

Quote from: johnneycool on March 18, 2010, 10:36:40 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 17, 2010, 11:08:11 PM
Fr Mulvey in Strabane built the Chapel, Community centre and Melmount Community Care.

All with his own money?

He certainly was a good priest.

I think he meant he was the brickie.

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 11:29:45 AM
For what its worth I know more good priests than bad. The timing of this thread seems to imply that there is something unfair about exposing Paedophilles and there protectors within the catholic church and that this is some attempt to balance this up. I don't believe anyone anywhere said all priests were bad and are responsible. For that reason I do believe the motive behind this thread is indeed a pathetic attempt by a poster who tends only to post on these grave matters when he is full of drink.

Well, Fr Brian Darcy and Fr McCafferty seem to be very genuine courageous priests who have spoken out about these scandals and the behaviour of their church.  Not a hope of them becoming bishops though. The church needs leaders of that calibre who will challenge wrong doing in their ranks. 

Brian D'arcy is a beacon, from the start he has said that it is moral law and more importantly criminal law that has to be respected rather than this canon law nonsense.

Pity then that good men like him don't be elevated to the top as they speak out. I know a fellow was in the church (Carmalite priests) and he told me speaking up or free thinking was a no-no and that is this decade.

Quote from: pintsofguinness on March 18, 2010, 11:17:16 AM

Quote from: supersarsfields on March 18, 2010, 11:06:57 AM
Not sure pints. But sure this thread is just pointing out that there are some priests that have done hugh amounts of good. Should this not be highlighted when the CC is getting ripped to shreds (Rightly so IMO)?

I dont see any point, no one is saying all priests are bad and considering previous comments on the child abuse scandal from the drunk who started the thread I suspect his motives aren't just about demonstrating there are good priests. 

If there were some stories about a doctor or solicitor or teacher in the news where they've done wrong we wouldn't all start threads about the good doctors/solicitors/teachers me know.

What the fcuk do you know about me, if you disagree with my point then say so, resorting to personal abuse is just pathetic.

Myles the thread was started as a response to the threads slating the church (on the whole rightly so), I just want to show that the CC do more good then bad, this is in no way an attempt to justify or balance the actions of the sick few Priests in the church. And again btw way do you feel the need to say I was drunk, you have done this in the past also when I have said things you disagree with, I stopped posting on the Abuse threads as I had stated my point and the threads are going round in circles at this stage.

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 18, 2010, 11:39:13 AM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 11:29:45 AM
For what its worth I know more good priests than bad. The timing of this thread seems to imply that there is something unfair about exposing Paedophilles and there protectors within the catholic church and that this is some attempt to balance this up. I don't believe anyone anywhere said all priests were bad and are responsible. For that reason I do believe the motive behind this thread is indeed a pathetic attempt by a poster who tends only to post on these grave matters when he is full of drink.

Well, Fr Brian Darcy and Fr McCafferty seem to be very genuine courageous priests who have spoken out about these scandals and the behaviour of their church.  Not a hope of them becoming bishops though. The church needs leaders of that calibre who will challenge wrong doing in their ranks.

I do believe that Fr McCafferty will be elevated and possibly also Fr D'Arcy, they are just the sort of Priests that the Church in Ireland needs right now to show some forward thinking.

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 18, 2010, 11:54:57 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 18, 2010, 11:39:13 AM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 11:29:45 AM
For what its worth I know more good priests than bad. The timing of this thread seems to imply that there is something unfair about exposing Paedophilles and there protectors within the catholic church and that this is some attempt to balance this up. I don't believe anyone anywhere said all priests were bad and are responsible. For that reason I do believe the motive behind this thread is indeed a pathetic attempt by a poster who tends only to post on these grave matters when he is full of drink.

Well, Fr Brian Darcy and Fr McCafferty seem to be very genuine courageous priests who have spoken out about these scandals and the behaviour of their church.  Not a hope of them becoming bishops though. The church needs leaders of that calibre who will challenge wrong doing in their ranks.

I do believe that Fr McCafferty will be elevated and possibly also Fr D'Arcy, they are just the sort of Priests that the Church in Ireland needs right now to show some forward thinking.

Not a hope of them being elevated to canon or bishop or watever ... the last thing Papa needs or wants is these two boys about the Vatican speaking out the truth. 
Speaking of Canons,  Gaoth Dobhair, you seem to be a loose one  :o 

Brian D'Arcy is a self-important, self-publicising, sanctimonious p***k.


Brian D'Arcy
(http://content9.flixster.com/question/62/69/38/6269387_std.jpg)


Father Buzz Cagney
(http://d284656.u38.hosting.digiweb.ie/img/2009/07/05/columnists/father-brian/terry.jpg)

If Ulick doesn't like him you can be sure he is a decent fella  :D

He has consistently spoke out on child abuse and had the courage to go on the Late Late Show when the rest of them hid out. Watever his failings, he did that and is to be applauded. 

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 18, 2010, 11:59:58 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 18, 2010, 11:54:57 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 18, 2010, 11:39:13 AM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 11:29:45 AM
For what its worth I know more good priests than bad. The timing of this thread seems to imply that there is something unfair about exposing Paedophilles and there protectors within the catholic church and that this is some attempt to balance this up. I don't believe anyone anywhere said all priests were bad and are responsible. For that reason I do believe the motive behind this thread is indeed a pathetic attempt by a poster who tends only to post on these grave matters when he is full of drink.

Well, Fr Brian Darcy and Fr McCafferty seem to be very genuine courageous priests who have spoken out about these scandals and the behaviour of their church.  Not a hope of them becoming bishops though. The church needs leaders of that calibre who will challenge wrong doing in their ranks.

I do believe that Fr McCafferty will be elevated and possibly also Fr D'Arcy, they are just the sort of Priests that the Church in Ireland needs right now to show some forward thinking.

Not a hope of them being elevated to canon or bishop or watever ... the last thing Papa needs or wants is these two boys about the Vatican speaking out the truth. 
Speaking of Canons,  Gaoth Dobhair, you seem to be a loose one  :o

I'm sure I don't know what you mean.

D'Arcy would turn up to the opening of an old would. Put a microphone in front of him and he would speak out about anything, even better if he has a celeb to rub shoulders with while he is doing it.

Quote from: Ulick on March 18, 2010, 12:32:44 PM
D'Arcy would turn up to the opening of an old would. Put a microphone in front of him and he would speak out about anything, even better if he has a celeb to rub shoulders with while he is doing it.

That's a good one... usually is, 'he'd turn up for the opening of an envelope.'

Quote from: Ulick on March 18, 2010, 12:32:44 PM
D'Arcy would turn up to the opening of an old would. Put a microphone in front of him and he would speak out about anything, even better if he has a celeb to rub shoulders with while he is doing it.

So where stand you Donagh Ulick on the Sean Brady scandal? D'Arcy might like the mic but at least he didn't cover up for paedophilles. He is also well placed to comment as he himself suffered sexual abuse.

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 01:13:20 PM

So where stand you Donagh Ulick on the Sean Brady scandal?

I haven't been following the news - what has he done?

Quote from: pintsofguinness on March 18, 2010, 10:59:43 AM

Quote from: supersarsfields on March 18, 2010, 10:57:49 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 18, 2010, 10:35:07 AM
Pathetic thread because the church is under the coshe for child abuse and cover ups. I don't think anyone is saying there aren't good priests. I know quite  a few and good teachers, electricians, solicitors, shop keepers....

Not pathetic at all. Just showing that the CC and priests aren't all bad. Are people not allowed to show another side to the priests other than the one currently under scrunity? There should be balance to any argument. No one is going to be saying that these things are going to make up for what has happened within the CC. But it can show that not everything the CC has done was evil.

Who's saying all priests are bad?

Some fella rang in our local radio this morning and said it.

I'd like to nominate Fr Conway who, at a time when my attendance at mass was not my decision, had the good grace to race through it (record time for a sunday mass 18 min).

Also he hammered seven shades of shite out of a couple of UDA men who arrived at the parochial house to shoot him one night.

Ps I suspect if he won the award his acceptance speech would be a touch shorter than Ted's.

PPs I remember at the time of Dermot Morgan's untimely demise, there were those who reckoned it was God's judgement for his ridiculing of the catholic church.  ::) Surprising the lack of lightening bolts at the minute.

Quote from: Ulick on March 18, 2010, 01:14:38 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 01:13:20 PM

So where stand you Donagh Ulick on the Sean Brady scandal?

I haven't been following the news - what has he done?

Havent read the papers, heard the radio, watched the tv news or checked the news on the Internet in the past week?! Really?!

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 18, 2010, 02:11:11 PM

Quote from: Ulick on March 18, 2010, 01:14:38 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 01:13:20 PM

So where stand you Donagh Ulick on the Sean Brady scandal?

I haven't been following the news - what has he done?

Havent read the papers, heard the radio, watched the tv news or checked the news on the Internet in the past week?! Really?!

'scandal' ?

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 18, 2010, 02:50:43 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 18, 2010, 02:11:11 PM

Quote from: Ulick on March 18, 2010, 01:14:38 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 01:13:20 PM

So where stand you Donagh Ulick on the Sean Brady scandal?

I haven't been following the news - what has he done?

Havent read the papers, heard the radio, watched the tv news or checked the news on the Internet in the past week?! Really?!

'scandal' ?

Come on LB, this is a scandal.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 18, 2010, 02:11:11 PM
Havent read the papers, heard the radio, watched the tv news or checked the news on the Internet in the past week?! Really?!

Well let me think. I got the Irish Times on Saturday, probably Friday as well and I don't recall anything. Can't say I watch much tv apart from viewing movies I've downloaded. My radio listening has been downloaded poscasts apart from the Gerry Anderson show and I don't think he's mentioned any Sean Brady scandal. So no I'm not aware of the Sean Brady scandal. Must do better I guess.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 18, 2010, 02:50:43 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 18, 2010, 02:11:11 PM

Quote from: Ulick on March 18, 2010, 01:14:38 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 01:13:20 PM

So where stand you Donagh Ulick on the Sean Brady scandal?

I haven't been following the news - what has he done?

Havent read the papers, heard the radio, watched the tv news or checked the news on the Internet in the past week?! Really?!

'scandal' ?

What else would you call it?

Quote from: Ulick on March 18, 2010, 03:09:32 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 18, 2010, 02:11:11 PM
Havent read the papers, heard the radio, watched the tv news or checked the news on the Internet in the past week?! Really?!

Well let me think. I got the Irish Times on Saturday, probably Friday as well and I don't recall anything. Can't say I watch much tv apart from viewing movies I've downloaded. My radio listening has been downloaded poscasts apart from the Gerry Anderson show and I don't think he's mentioned any Sean Brady scandal. So no I'm not aware of the Sean Brady scandal. Must do better I guess.

Yeah, even MMcG commented on it.

Quote from: nrico2006 on March 18, 2010, 11:15:46 AM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 18, 2010, 10:21:03 AM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 17, 2010, 11:08:11 PM
Fr Mulvey in Strabane built the Chapel, Community centre and Melmount Community Care.

He was also fearless in speaking out against RUC harrasment in the 80's GDA when others in the same town were not so vocal, the present incumbent there is also a good man, Fr Doc - well respected by everyone who knows him.

Father Doc has the uncanny knack of being able to relate to everyone in Strabane regardless of their age.  Quite different from his immediate predecessor.

I know Fr Doc as well and he is a really top bloke.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 18, 2010, 03:03:35 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 18, 2010, 02:50:43 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 18, 2010, 02:11:11 PM

Quote from: Ulick on March 18, 2010, 01:14:38 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 01:13:20 PM

So where stand you Donagh Ulick on the Sean Brady scandal?

I haven't been following the news - what has he done?

Havent read the papers, heard the radio, watched the tv news or checked the news on the Internet in the past week?! Really?!

'scandal' ?

Come on LB, this is a scandal.

the then Fr. Brady thing is a 'scandal' ?

the child abuse thing is more than a scandal, it deserves capital punishment for sex offenders, rapists, child abusers etc
but part of the whole problem in this country is that all abusers and people who flout the law get off scott free - the sex offenders, the killers, the financial fraudsters, the legal cheats, the erseholes that waste hospital/courts time etc
all deserve at least custodial sentences.

the Then Fr Brady was a mute idiot afraid to squeal on his own church - maybe he thought he could rectify things later etc
either way he and all others that could have done something about it should be sacked.
That way the Catholic church has a clean bill of health and no legacy from past disgraces remain.

but a 'scandal' for not squealing - no.
sad and spineless - yes.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 18, 2010, 04:13:19 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 18, 2010, 03:03:35 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 18, 2010, 02:50:43 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 18, 2010, 02:11:11 PM

Quote from: Ulick on March 18, 2010, 01:14:38 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 01:13:20 PM

So where stand you Donagh Ulick on the Sean Brady scandal?

I haven't been following the news - what has he done?

Havent read the papers, heard the radio, watched the tv news or checked the news on the Internet in the past week?! Really?!

'scandal' ?

Come on LB, this is a scandal.

the then Fr. Brady thing is a 'scandal' ?

the child abuse thing is more than a scandal, it deserves capital punishment for sex offenders, rapists, child abusers etc
but part of the whole problem in this country is that all abusers and people who flout the law get off scott free - the sex offenders, the killers, the financial fraudsters, the legal cheats, the erseholes that waste hospital/courts time etc
all deserve at least custodial sentences.

the Then Fr Brady was a mute idiot afraid to squeal on his own church - maybe he thought he could rectify things later etc
either way he and all others that could have done something about it should be sacked.
That way the Catholic church has a clean bill of health and no legacy from past disgraces remain.

but a 'scandal' for not squealing - no.
sad and spineless - yes.

I think you are on the same page as me anyway, you are saying he has to go/be sacked, that in itself is a scandal is it not?  That the Primate of All Ireland will walk over this is a major scandal I would say.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 18, 2010, 04:13:19 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 18, 2010, 03:03:35 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 18, 2010, 02:50:43 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 18, 2010, 02:11:11 PM

Quote from: Ulick on March 18, 2010, 01:14:38 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 01:13:20 PM

So where stand you Donagh Ulick on the Sean Brady scandal?

I haven't been following the news - what has he done?

Havent read the papers, heard the radio, watched the tv news or checked the news on the Internet in the past week?! Really?!

'scandal' ?

Come on LB, this is a scandal.

the then Fr. Brady thing is a 'scandal' ?

the child abuse thing is more than a scandal, it deserves capital punishment for sex offenders, rapists, child abusers etc
but part of the whole problem in this country is that all abusers and people who flout the law get off scott free - the sex offenders, the killers, the financial fraudsters, the legal cheats, the erseholes that waste hospital/courts time etcall deserve at least custodial sentences.

the Then Fr Brady was a mute idiot afraid to squeal on his own church - maybe he thought he could rectify things later etc
either way he and all others that could have done something about it should be sacked.
That way the Catholic church has a clean bill of health and no legacy from past disgraces remain.

but a 'scandal' for not squealing - no.
sad and spineless - yes.

Yeah they all do ::)  What's the point of having those courts if they are never going to use them.

there are plenty of priests who have done fantastic work in Ireland over the past 100 years (and more). There continues to be magnificent priests.
A small amount has given the rest a bad name , and like other intitutions and countries who did not know how to deal with huge problems when they arose - the Catholic church in hindsight prob couldnt have reacted any worse than they did.

However with vocations lessening in Ireland and foreign priests to now to become commonplace, I expect another hundred years of fantastic work, now more so than ever with people in economic turmoil and in need of help and comfort.

Quote from: thebigfella on March 18, 2010, 04:18:48 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 18, 2010, 04:13:19 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 18, 2010, 03:03:35 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 18, 2010, 02:50:43 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 18, 2010, 02:11:11 PM

Quote from: Ulick on March 18, 2010, 01:14:38 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 01:13:20 PM

So where stand you Donagh Ulick on the Sean Brady scandal?

I haven't been following the news - what has he done?

Havent read the papers, heard the radio, watched the tv news or checked the news on the Internet in the past week?! Really?!

'scandal' ?

Come on LB, this is a scandal.

the then Fr. Brady thing is a 'scandal' ?

the child abuse thing is more than a scandal, it deserves capital punishment for sex offenders, rapists, child abusers etc
but part of the whole problem in this country is that all abusers and people who flout the law get off scott free - the sex offenders, the killers, the financial fraudsters, the legal cheats, the erseholes that waste hospital/courts time etcall deserve at least custodial sentences.

the Then Fr Brady was a mute idiot afraid to squeal on his own church - maybe he thought he could rectify things later etc
either way he and all others that could have done something about it should be sacked.
That way the Catholic church has a clean bill of health and no legacy from past disgraces remain.

but a 'scandal' for not squealing - no.
sad and spineless - yes.

Yeah they all do ::)  What's the point of having those courts if they are never going to use them.

too many loopholes and a judicial system that is in need of a savage overhaul

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 18, 2010, 04:17:54 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 18, 2010, 04:13:19 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 18, 2010, 03:03:35 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 18, 2010, 02:50:43 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 18, 2010, 02:11:11 PM

Quote from: Ulick on March 18, 2010, 01:14:38 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 01:13:20 PM

So where stand you Donagh Ulick on the Sean Brady scandal?

I haven't been following the news - what has he done?

Havent read the papers, heard the radio, watched the tv news or checked the news on the Internet in the past week?! Really?!

'scandal' ?

Come on LB, this is a scandal.

the then Fr. Brady thing is a 'scandal' ?

the child abuse thing is more than a scandal, it deserves capital punishment for sex offenders, rapists, child abusers etc
but part of the whole problem in this country is that all abusers and people who flout the law get off scott free - the sex offenders, the killers, the financial fraudsters, the legal cheats, the erseholes that waste hospital/courts time etc
all deserve at least custodial sentences.

the Then Fr Brady was a mute idiot afraid to squeal on his own church - maybe he thought he could rectify things later etc
either way he and all others that could have done something about it should be sacked.
That way the Catholic church has a clean bill of health and no legacy from past disgraces remain.

but a 'scandal' for not squealing - no.
sad and spineless - yes.

I think you are on the same page as me anyway, you are saying he has to go/be sacked, that in itself is a scandal is it not?  That the Primate of All Ireland will walk over this is a major scandal I would say.

I think he has to go for the greater good of the church

as it stands though he didnt do anything (literally) which is his crime - and for that is not actually deserving of being sacked.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 18, 2010, 04:18:59 PM
there are plenty of priests who have done fantastic work in Ireland over the past 100 years (and more). There continues to be magnificent priests.
A small amount has given the rest a bad name , and like other intitutions and countries who did not know how to deal with huge problems when they arose - the Catholic church in hindsight prob couldnt have reacted any worse than they did.

However with vocations lessening in Ireland and foreign priests to now to become commonplace, I expect another hundred years of fantastic work, now more so than ever with people in economic turmoil and in need of help and comfort.

Wise up LB.

The current head of the Catholic Church in Ireland knowingly withheld information on a priest sex offender who had abused children and went on to abuse a great deal more children.

Scandalous would be one of the least emotive words I can think of to describe it.

Well if we are going to be pedantic I'll retract the word scandal, enter in its place what you will.

Ulick - You should get out more. Let me sumarise. In 1975 the then Father Sean Brady (later Cardinal, i'm sure you have heard of him - wears a little purple thing on his head) was present when two children who had been sexualy abused by notorious paedophille Fr Brendan Smyth. Father Brady then witnessed these children sign a document so that they would not speak of the issue again. Father Brady claims he was just taking notes and passed these onto his bishop who didn't act on them. He claimed initially that he had done no wrong. Survivor groups claim Fr Brady could have saved many children from abuse if he had gone to the Gardai and reported Smyth especially since it was obvious that he was still at large after his note taking exercise. Fr Brady then watched 2 court cases prosecute Smyth and still did not come forward. He sat on his information for 20 years. A few weeks ago he was calling on Bishops in the Murphy report to "do the right thing" - presumably resign. He indeed said that if his (in)actions were to ever lead to harm to children he would resign. Early in the week he said only the pope could convince him to resign. Following an outcry which you missed he now says he is ashamed of his actions and his considering is position. So Ulick, do you think he should quit.

Well said Myles

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 04:34:44 PMSurvivor groups claim Fr Brady could have saved many children from abuse if he had gone to the Gardai and reported Smyth

I agree with your post Myles, but the survivor groups are probably wrong on this one, given what we learned from the Murphy report (and probably suspected all along). Given the culture of deference to the Church at the time, there is no guarantee whatsoever that the guards, at the highest level, and their political bosses wouldn't have colluded in the cover-up.

This is not to condone Brady's inaction, of course.

Quote from: Franko on March 18, 2010, 04:23:20 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 18, 2010, 04:18:59 PM
there are plenty of priests who have done fantastic work in Ireland over the past 100 years (and more). There continues to be magnificent priests.
A small amount has given the rest a bad name , and like other intitutions and countries who did not know how to deal with huge problems when they arose - the Catholic church in hindsight prob couldnt have reacted any worse than they did.

However with vocations lessening in Ireland and foreign priests to now to become commonplace, I expect another hundred years of fantastic work, now more so than ever with people in economic turmoil and in need of help and comfort.

Wise up LB.
The current head of the Catholic Church in Ireland knowingly withheld information on a priest sex offender who had abused children and went on to abuse a great deal more children.
Scandalous would be one of the least emotive words I can think of to describe it.

that would be your opinion and the opinion of a lot of people - throughbenefit of hindsight.

however , I do not agree with you.

Quote from: Hardy on March 18, 2010, 04:42:03 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 04:34:44 PMSurvivor groups claim Fr Brady could have saved many children from abuse if he had gone to the Gardai and reported Smyth

I agree with your post Myles, but the survivor groups are probably wrong on this one, given what we learned from the Murphy report (and probably suspected all along). Given the culture of deference to the Church at the time, there is no guarantee whatsoever that the guards, at the highest level, and their political bosses wouldn't have colluded in the cover-up.

This is not to condone Brady's inaction, of course.

the problem is that there are too many sheep in all institutions who wont act
that has not changed throughout the world.

LB I think the bigger problem is not with the sheep but with their shepherds. Remember that in both the church and state, while the crimes were perpetrated by the little guys, the cover up was orchestrated from the very top and the cover up is by far the bigger crime, because it facilitates ten more crimes for every one committed originally.

Quote from: Hardy on March 18, 2010, 05:07:42 PM
LB I think the bigger problem is not with the sheep but with their shepherds. Remember that in both the church and state, while the crimes were perpetrated by the little guys, the cover up was orchestrated from the very top and the cover up is by far the bigger crime, because it facilitates ten more crimes for every one committed originally.

absolutely
the young shepherd here was one of the little guys so was never going to be listened to

the problem was with the Catholic Church in Ireland, the top men there tried to hush it up, I dont even think they would have even relayed the whole problem to the vatican and up the chain of command - such was their arrogance

these head honchos and the little men - the b@stard sex offenders - they all deserve jail at least.

the Catholic church itself is as good as any globally massive organisation could be.
there will be pockets of evil everywhere.

the catholic church up until now was not aware or geared towards combatting or dealing with such evil or wrongdoing - and thus chose the wrong options.

Scandalous indeed. So I take it Brady isn't one of the good guys anymore?

When you turn a blind eye as an adult man of 36 to the reports of 2 small children who have been assaulted by Brendan Smyth and have them sign an oath of secrecy - you were never one of the good guys.

Donagh Ulick is trying some pathetic attempt at being amusing. Normally very politically tuned in (agree with him or not) he is trying to tell us he hasn't heard anything about the story. I don't see anything amusing about this story myself. Funny how you lose all ready and interest when a story comes along that puts member(s) of the church in a bad light isn't it, I wonder why that is?

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 07:39:24 PM
Donagh Ulick is trying some pathetic attempt at being amusing. Normally very politically tuned in (agree with him or not) he is trying to tell us he hasn't heard anything about the story. I don't see anything amusing about this story myself. Funny how you lose all ready and interest when a story comes along that puts member(s) of the church in a bad light isn't it, I wonder why that is?

I dunno myles why don't you tell us? I don't pay much notice of the mainstream church but I do seem to remember Brady being feted far and wide when he was appointed, now he's in the bad books. Excuse me if I missed the news and can't summon up enough faux outrage to meet everyone's approval but this has about as much interest to me as the previous hundred similar stories we've heard over the past decade. Shocking, maybe, disappointing, sure, surprising, not at all.

Quote from: Ulick on March 18, 2010, 08:48:55 PM

Quote from: mylestheslasher on March 18, 2010, 07:39:24 PM
Donagh Ulick is trying some pathetic attempt at being amusing. Normally very politically tuned in (agree with him or not) he is trying to tell us he hasn't heard anything about the story. I don't see anything amusing about this story myself. Funny how you lose all ready and interest when a story comes along that puts member(s) of the church in a bad light isn't it, I wonder why that is?

I dunno myles why don't you tell us? I don't pay much notice of the mainstream church but I do seem to remember Brady being feted far and wide when he was appointed, now he's in the bad books. Excuse me if I missed the news and can't summon up enough faux outrage to meet everyone's approval but this has about as much interest to me as the previous hundred similar stories we've heard over the past decade. Shocking, maybe, disappointing, sure, surprising, not at all.

Maybe Brady was feted before the truth was known, is that so hard to understand. People didn't know he had protected a paedophille did they? And don't give me this shite about not knowing about this case, there isn't anyone in the country that hasn't read something about it in the past week.

There was a bloke on the radio the other morning who made a very valid point. Back in the 70's when in the presence of the senior hierarchy a young priest was meant to be seen and not heard.

But now people are shouting for his head. I dont understand it at all.

If I knew that two men slept together should I report it to the police? Obviously not. But if they slept together in 1963? It was illegal then. So should I still report it to the police?

Now before you go flying off the handle, yes I know, that child molesting is wrong, and was always wrong. But back then Brady was not the law. His superiors were the law. Brady is a good man. Dont throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Quote from: Orior on March 18, 2010, 09:16:09 PM
There was a bloke on the radio the other morning who made a very valid point. Back in the 70's when in the presence of the senior hierarchy a young priest was meant to be seen and not heard.

But now people are shouting for his head. I dont understand it at all.

If I knew that two men slept together should I report it to the police? Obviously not. But if they slept together in 1963? It was illegal then. So should I still report it to the police?

Now before you go flying off the handle, yes I know, that child molesting is wrong, and was always wrong. But back then Brady was not the law. His superiors were the law. Brady is a good man. Dont throw out the baby with the bathwater.

You ask people not to fly of handle yet you post pure dung. Child rape was wrong 2000 years ago never mind 30 years ago. Brady knew this notorious child rapist was still at large and nothing done. He watch him end up in court twice and it didn't dawn on him to say anything? Maybe you are right, keep quiet and climb the ladder to be a cardinal. If thats the case you are only wrong about one thing, Brady is not a good man. He is a self interested selfish man who cared more about himself and his corrupt church than he did about children.

Quote from: Orior on March 18, 2010, 09:16:09 PM
There was a bloke on the radio the other morning who made a very valid point. Back in the 70's when in the presence of the senior hierarchy a young priest was meant to be seen and not heard.

But now people are shouting for his head. I dont understand it at all.

If I knew that two men slept together should I report it to the police? Obviously not. But if they slept together in 1963? It was illegal then. So should I still report it to the police?

Now before you go flying off the handle, yes I know, that child molesting is wrong, and was always wrong. But back then Brady was not the law. His superiors were the law. Brady is a good man. Dont throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Well I dont buy that orior but even if we did give him the benefit of the doubt about his not reporting it in 1975 why has it taken him to now (considering that smyth was prosecuted in the north and south) to come out and say what he done - and he's only done that because there was a civil case.

What you guys are suggesting is that every one of the Catholic management team resign.

And if that happens, do they just bring in PriceWaterhouseCoopers to run the church in Ireland? Of bring in the Church of Ireland top brass? Of let Richatrd Branson run it?

Either way, if you guys get your way, i would imagine it is the end of the catholic church. And that aint gonna happen.

Quote from: Orior on March 18, 2010, 09:28:42 PM
What you guys are suggesting is that every one of the Catholic management team resign.

And if that happens, do they just bring in PriceWaterhouseCoopers to run the church in Ireland? Of bring in the Church of Ireland top brass? Of let Richatrd Branson run it?

Either way, if you guys get your way, i would imagine it is the end of the catholic church. And that aint gonna happen.

And what do you think will happen the catholic church with paedo protectors at the top?

Quote from: Orior on March 18, 2010, 09:28:42 PM
What you guys are suggesting is that every one of the Catholic management team resign.

And if that happens, do they just bring in PriceWaterhouseCoopers to run the church in Ireland? Of bring in the Church of Ireland top brass? Of let Richatrd Branson run it?

Either way, if you guys get your way, i would imagine it is the end of the catholic church. And that aint gonna happen.

I'm not saying that, not unless it is shown that they all protected Paedophilles? If they were all involved in protecting Paedophilles do you think the lay people will continue to support their leadership, with the exception that is of those that can see no wrong in any of this.

Quote from: Orior on March 18, 2010, 09:16:09 PM
There was a bloke on the radio the other morning who made a very valid point. Back in the 70's when in the presence of the senior hierarchy a young priest was meant to be seen and not heard.

But now people are shouting for his head. I dont understand it at all.

If I knew that two men slept together should I report it to the police? Obviously not. But if they slept together in 1963? It was illegal then. So should I still report it to the police?

Now before you go flying off the handle, yes I know, that child molesting is wrong, and was always wrong. But back then Brady was not the law. His superiors were the law. Brady is a good man. Dont throw out the baby with the bathwater.

That a grown man, be him priest or lay was aware of child molestations and present for the signing of those documents is inexcusable and unforgiveable.

Someone (Hardy, maybe) came with a phrase a few months or years back - something about disappearing into the study with a bottle of Brandy and a revolver. I can't help thinking of it now, how can these guys sleep at night, look at themselves in the mirror. Much less, get up on front of  a packed church and hold their hands up and go ooops, sorry and only then when their forced to.

A 37 year old highly educated man is not a young buck. And Brendan Smyth was and continued to be pure evil.
I have no clue about Cardinal Brady or what he has done to deserve such a lofty post. For the sake of the members of the church i'd hope it was not his blind obedience and willingness to participate in a cover up of this Brendan Smyth proportions  over the decades, that was one of the shining lights on his CV.

As for putting a lid on it now and moving on as a part of the strategy, does not speak much for his leadership qualities in such a crisis. Wherever did some people get the idea that this sex abuse in Ireland issue is a wrap?

I would say that all clergy men at parish priest level and above knew what was going on. They would have got together often enough to speak about those unspeakable things.

My parents say that she will never stop going to chapel. They pray to God, not to the priest.

Quote from: Orior on March 18, 2010, 10:00:22 PM
I would say that all clergy men at parish priest level and above knew what was going on. They would have got together often enough to speak about those unspeakable things.

My parents say that she will never stop going to chapel. They pray to God, not to the priest.

Which can be done from the comfort of their own home should they choose.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 18, 2010, 10:15:21 PM

Quote from: Orior on March 18, 2010, 10:00:22 PM
I would say that all clergy men at parish priest level and above knew what was going on. They would have got together often enough to speak about those unspeakable things.

My parents say that she will never stop going to chapel. They pray to God, not to the priest.

Which can be done from the comfort of their own home should they choose.

But they wont do that. And they will continue to throw in the envelopes too. Its called faith.

Quote from: Orior on March 18, 2010, 10:20:11 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 18, 2010, 10:15:21 PM

Quote from: Orior on March 18, 2010, 10:00:22 PM
I would say that all clergy men at parish priest level and above knew what was going on. They would have got together often enough to speak about those unspeakable things.

My parents say that she will never stop going to chapel. They pray to God, not to the priest.

Which can be done from the comfort of their own home should they choose.

But they wont do that. And they will continue to throw in the envelopes too. Its called faith.

The hush money has to come from somewhere.

It was the congregation en masse and finally 50 of the priests forced the resignation of Cardinal Law in Boston.
Law's problem fundamentally was blind obedience to the Vatican's procedures in the sex abuse cases.

The Irish congregation took a long time to wake up, roused up a wee fuss and were far too keen to get back to the way things were.

Quote from: Orior on March 18, 2010, 10:00:22 PM
I would say that all clergy men at parish priest level and above knew what was going on. They would have got together often enough to speak about those unspeakable things.

My parents say that she will never stop going to chapel. They pray to God, not to the priest.

Just spoke to me mother about this yesterday. They have "a great wee priest" but I guess yesterday her and bunch of the other daily mass goers spoke to him at length about how they felt after all this. I could tell she is pretty gutted about it all to be honest and I felt sorry for her because her faith means a great deal. She's downright ashamed of the church right now and is continuing to go to mass because of her faith and "personal connection to god". But lord she had some venom in her words yesterday.


Any man who stood by and let this happen, for whatever reasons, be it fear of their own or desire for promotion or protocol (enjoyed that explanation yesterday) should hang their head in shame at the pain endured by little children because of their lack of action.

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 18, 2010, 10:24:24 PM

Quote from: Orior on March 18, 2010, 10:20:11 PM

Quote from: Tony Baloney on March 18, 2010, 10:15:21 PM

Quote from: Orior on March 18, 2010, 10:00:22 PM
I would say that all clergy men at parish priest level and above knew what was going on. They would have got together often enough to speak about those unspeakable things.

My parents say that she will never stop going to chapel. They pray to God, not to the priest.

Which can be done from the comfort of their own home should they choose.

But they wont do that. And they will continue to throw in the envelopes too. Its called faith.

The hush money has to come from somewhere.

All they gotta do is sell another Vatican painting or statue

Quote from: Puckoon on March 18, 2010, 10:26:54 PM

Quote from: Orior on March 18, 2010, 10:00:22 PM
I would say that all clergy men at parish priest level and above knew what was going on. They would have got together often enough to speak about those unspeakable things.

My parents say that she will never stop going to chapel. They pray to God, not to the priest.

Just spoke to me mother about this yesterday. They have "a great wee priest" but I guess yesterday her and bunch of the other daily mass goers spoke to him at length about how they felt after all this. I could tell she is pretty gutted about it all to be honest and I felt sorry for her because her faith means a great deal. She's downright ashamed of the church right now and is continuing to go to mass because of her faith and "personal connection to god". But lord she had some venom in her words yesterday.


Any man who stood by and let this happen, for whatever reasons, be it fear of their own or desire for promotion or protocol (enjoyed that explanation yesterday) should hang their head in shame at the pain endured by little children because of their lack of action.

puck, my mother is the person in my life who gave me faith.  She has been shaken to the core literally over the issue of priests as paedophiles, she is questioning everything for really the first time in her life as a result of the recent revelations.  She actually asked me previous to this why I can still go to Mass knowing what has been happening within the Irish Church.  I answered her in the only way I knew how and said that it's faith that brings us through traumatic times such as this.  I feel I am right in that regard, it just surprised me that the person who brought me to the point where I am at today is so greatly troubled by what has been highlighted by the media that she was asking me for advice.

Quote from: hardstation on March 18, 2010, 11:46:20 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 18, 2010, 11:42:15 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on March 18, 2010, 10:26:54 PM

Quote from: Orior on March 18, 2010, 10:00:22 PM
I would say that all clergy men at parish priest level and above knew what was going on. They would have got together often enough to speak about those unspeakable things.

My parents say that she will never stop going to chapel. They pray to God, not to the priest.

Just spoke to me mother about this yesterday. They have "a great wee priest" but I guess yesterday her and bunch of the other daily mass goers spoke to him at length about how they felt after all this. I could tell she is pretty gutted about it all to be honest and I felt sorry for her because her faith means a great deal. She's downright ashamed of the church right now and is continuing to go to mass because of her faith and "personal connection to god". But lord she had some venom in her words yesterday.


Any man who stood by and let this happen, for whatever reasons, be it fear of their own or desire for promotion or protocol (enjoyed that explanation yesterday) should hang their head in shame at the pain endured by little children because of their lack of action.

puck, my mother is the person in my life who gave me faith.  She has been shaken to the core literally over the issue of priests as paedophiles, she is questioning everything for really the first time in her life as a result of the recent revelations.  She actually asked me previous to this why I can still go to Mass knowing what has been happening within the Irish Church.  I answered her in the only way I knew how and said that it's faith that brings us through traumatic times such as this.  I feel I am right in that regard, it just surprised me that the person who brought me to the point where I am at today is so greatly troubled by what has been highlighted by the media that she was asking me for advice.

Faith in whom? God or the church itself?

For me, it's both in that I see the Church as all the people involved in it be they religious or laity.  Faith in God is a given if you are an active member of the Church

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 18, 2010, 11:59:00 PM

Quote from: hardstation on March 18, 2010, 11:46:20 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 18, 2010, 11:42:15 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on March 18, 2010, 10:26:54 PM

Quote from: Orior on March 18, 2010, 10:00:22 PM
I would say that all clergy men at parish priest level and above knew what was going on. They would have got together often enough to speak about those unspeakable things.

My parents say that she will never stop going to chapel. They pray to God, not to the priest.

Just spoke to me mother about this yesterday. They have "a great wee priest" but I guess yesterday her and bunch of the other daily mass goers spoke to him at length about how they felt after all this. I could tell she is pretty gutted about it all to be honest and I felt sorry for her because her faith means a great deal. She's downright ashamed of the church right now and is continuing to go to mass because of her faith and "personal connection to god". But lord she had some venom in her words yesterday.


Any man who stood by and let this happen, for whatever reasons, be it fear of their own or desire for promotion or protocol (enjoyed that explanation yesterday) should hang their head in shame at the pain endured by little children because of their lack of action.

puck, my mother is the person in my life who gave me faith.  She has been shaken to the core literally over the issue of priests as paedophiles, she is questioning everything for really the first time in her life as a result of the recent revelations.  She actually asked me previous to this why I can still go to Mass knowing what has been happening within the Irish Church.  I answered her in the only way I knew how and said that it's faith that brings us through traumatic times such as this.  I feel I am right in that regard, it just surprised me that the person who brought me to the point where I am at today is so greatly troubled by what has been highlighted by the media that she was asking me for advice.

Faith in whom? God or the church itself?

For me, it's both in that I see the Church as all the people involved in it be they religious or laity.  Faith in God is a given if you are an active member of the Church

No way is it a given... Brendan Symth was a very active member of the church and an evil monster at the same time as was Sean Fortune and many others... You couldn't have faith in God and do those things...

As usual lrtf misses the point in favour of yet another nonsensical, sensationalist post

Did your mammy tell you to write that  ::)

I think Ardmhacaabu has the right sense of the whole sorry situation, there is more good than evil in the Church, and the good will eventually triumph

When he is under pressure in a debate Armagh abu attacks the person rather than continue on the subject. My last comment disputing him saying, "Faith in God is a given if you are an active member of the Church" was just met with an attack on me  ::)  That ain't discussion.   

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 19, 2010, 12:23:32 AM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 18, 2010, 11:59:00 PM
For me, it's both in that I see the Church as all the people involved in it be they religious or laity.  Faith in God is a given if you are an active member of the Church

No way is it a given... Brendan Symth was a very active member of the church and an evil monster at the same time as was Sean Fortune and many others... You couldn't have faith in God and do those things...

Disconnected thinking there Fox.
Smyth and Fortune have nothing to do with God and faith.  Both of them are not examples of a faith in God regardless of their church activity. They also abused and manipulated the Church and those who tried (however fruitlessly) to bring them to task. They are examples of a gross degradation. Their degradation has nothing to do with another´s faith.

Boo-hoo, someone disagrees with ltrf and they are accused of not engaging in discussion, never mind debate.  Who set him up as moral referee of this forum anyway?  Himself?

Quote from: Main Street on March 19, 2010, 12:48:21 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 19, 2010, 12:23:32 AM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 18, 2010, 11:59:00 PM
For me, it's both in that I see the Church as all the people involved in it be they religious or laity.  Faith in God is a given if you are an active member of the Church

No way is it a given... Brendan Symth was a very active member of the church and an evil monster at the same time as was Sean Fortune and many others... You couldn't have faith in God and do those things...

Disconnected thinking there Fox.
Smyth and Fortune have nothing to do with God and faith.  Both of them are not examples of a faith in God regardless of their church activity. They also abused and manipulated the Church and those who tried (however fruitlessly) to bring them to task. They are examples of a gross degradation. Their degradation has nothing to do with another´s faith.

100% correct MS, may I say you are usually on the button too?

Quote from: Main Street on March 19, 2010, 12:48:21 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 19, 2010, 12:23:32 AM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 18, 2010, 11:59:00 PM
For me, it's both in that I see the Church as all the people involved in it be they religious or laity.  Faith in God is a given if you are an active member of the Church

No way is it a given... Brendan Symth was a very active member of the church and an evil monster at the same time as was Sean Fortune and many others... You couldn't have faith in God and do those things...

Disconnected thinking there Fox.
Smyth and Fortune have nothing to do with God and faith.  Both of them are not examples of a faith in God regardless of their church activity. They also abused and manipulated the Church and those who tried (however fruitlessly) to bring them to task. They are examples of a gross degradation. Their degradation has nothing to do with another´s faith.

Aye but the point I'm making is he is incorrect to assume 'faith in God is a given if you are an active member of the Church'... lots of active members priests and lay people were scandalised so obviously it wasn't a given in their cases. Certainly many who are active are people of faith but it ain't always a given...     

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 19, 2010, 12:50:44 AM
Boo-hoo, someone disagrees with ltrf and they are accused of not engaging in discussion, never mind debate.  Who set him up as moral referee of this forum anyway?  Himself?

did Sean Brady set you up as his spokesman on this board... try arguing the £45,000 was 'protocol' mammy's boy   :-*

Thanks for proving my point lrtf, by being yourself (the childish and immature moron that you are) and by not respecting my wishes.  That post, much like most of your posts and thread starters just proves you are an utter imbecile.  Does not surprise me or many others in the slightest though

You are an immature moron because you can't understand that not everyone sees things in the same way as you do.  God help any children you have!

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 19, 2010, 01:10:18 AM
Thanks for proving my point lrtf, by being yourself (the childish and immature moron that you are) and by not respecting my wishes.  That post, much like most of your posts and thread starters just proves you are an utter imbecile.  Does not surprise me or many others in the slightest though

You are an immature moron because you can't understand that not everyone sees things in the same way as you do.  God help any children you have!

Finally, you show some consideration in this debate for children. Check your previous posts, the first time you have mentioned children in all this  :o

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 19, 2010, 01:10:18 AM
Thanks for proving my point lrtf, by being yourself (the childish and immature moron that you are) and by not respecting my wishes.  That post, much like most of your posts and thread starters just proves you are an utter imbecile.  Does not surprise me or many others in the slightest though

You are an immature moron because you can't understand that not everyone sees things in the same way as you do.  God help any children you have!

f**k me, can you not have a difference of opinion with someone without launching into personal insults? I suppose we should be grateful you are hanging around this thread instead of running off in a huff again...

Quote from: Ulick on March 19, 2010, 01:42:18 AM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 19, 2010, 01:10:18 AM
Thanks for proving my point lrtf, by being yourself (the childish and immature moron that you are) and by not respecting my wishes.  That post, much like most of your posts and thread starters just proves you are an utter imbecile.  Does not surprise me or many others in the slightest though

You are an immature moron because you can't understand that not everyone sees things in the same way as you do.  God help any children you have!

f**k me, can you not have a difference of opinion with someone without launching into personal insults? I suppose we should be grateful you are hanging around this thread instead of running off in a huff again...

Thanh you Ulick... I made an reasoned arguement on the previous page and was met with a torrent of insults rather than a counter debate. Anyway, I met fire with fire... am well able for that clown.

Ardmhaca, your language above isn't very becoming of a man who, as you mentioned earlier, considered joining the Priesthood.

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 19, 2010, 12:54:11 AM

Quote from: Main Street on March 19, 2010, 12:48:21 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 19, 2010, 12:23:32 AM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 18, 2010, 11:59:00 PM
For me, it's both in that I see the Church as all the people involved in it be they religious or laity.  Faith in God is a given if you are an active member of the Church

No way is it a given... Brendan Symth was a very active member of the church and an evil monster at the same time as was Sean Fortune and many others... You couldn't have faith in God and do those things...

Disconnected thinking there Fox.
Smyth and Fortune have nothing to do with God and faith.  Both of them are not examples of a faith in God regardless of their church activity. They also abused and manipulated the Church and those who tried (however fruitlessly) to bring them to task. They are examples of a gross degradation. Their degradation has nothing to do with another´s faith.

Aye but the point I'm making is he is incorrect to assume 'faith in God is a given if you are an active member of the Church'... lots of active members priests and lay people were scandalised so obviously it wasn't a given in their cases. Certainly many who are active are people of faith but it ain't always a given...   

As I read it, you were trying to be a smart alec.
You separated that short sentence out of a context, a context of a slightly longer reply to a sensitive question of faith  and stepped around what one could reasonably interpret as his intended expression about the Church and his faith, as he sees it.
If he had used the adjective 'sincere' to describe church activity, could you accept what he wrote without indulging in an extreme example to provide an exception to his expression of faith?

Quote from: Ulick on March 19, 2010, 01:42:18 AM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 19, 2010, 01:10:18 AM
Thanks for proving my point lrtf, by being yourself (the childish and immature moron that you are) and by not respecting my wishes.  That post, much like most of your posts and thread starters just proves you are an utter imbecile.  Does not surprise me or many others in the slightest though

You are an immature moron because you can't understand that not everyone sees things in the same way as you do.  God help any children you have!

f**k me, can you not have a difference of opinion with someone without launching into personal insults? I suppose we should be grateful you are hanging around this thread instead of running off in a huff again...

He has been hounding me about Brady in every thread that he can bring it up in since I said I wasn't prepared to re-hash things constantly.  He got what was coming to him and nothing more

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 19, 2010, 09:49:09 AM

Quote from: Ulick on March 19, 2010, 01:42:18 AM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 19, 2010, 01:10:18 AM
Thanks for proving my point lrtf, by being yourself (the childish and immature moron that you are) and by not respecting my wishes.  That post, much like most of your posts and thread starters just proves you are an utter imbecile.  Does not surprise me or many others in the slightest though

You are an immature moron because you can't understand that not everyone sees things in the same way as you do.  God help any children you have!

f**k me, can you not have a difference of opinion with someone without launching into personal insults? I suppose we should be grateful you are hanging around this thread instead of running off in a huff again...

He has been hounding me about Brady in every thread that he can bring it up in since I said I wasn't prepared to re-hash things constantly.  He got what was coming to him and nothing more

Got what was coming to me?!  :P is that the best you can do MB?

irrespective of what peoples opinions are on the catholic church and the excuse this gives some to take a pop, it remains that the Priests and catholic church in Ireland were fantastic to the people from famine times and before, for educating the people from hedge schools - and to a large extent are responsible for the upwards trend in educational levels in our society today.
Saviours of the poor and hungry, theneedy and inconsolable.
Individuals have excelled themselves , some famously , most only known to individual parishes.

The priests that helped foster sports esp football in the parishes I am associated with (Fr McNally pk in Feeney Co Derry) , to the parish priest that ensured that all local schools had a football and also organised food rations from the EU 'mountain'/surplus and personally distributed them throughout all the houses in the parish - 'there ya go Mrs X, youve a few hardy young lads who would like this good round steak'.

a few bad bustarts and the ineptitude of the hierarchy has allowed people to tar all with one brush.
Thats why I'd get rid of Brady , as his continuation will always allow people to moan about the Catholic church.
We need a new beginning and to properly reflect on the 95% of good and fantastic priests that this country was helped built by.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 19, 2010, 10:54:38 AM
irrespective of what peoples opinions are on the catholic church and the excuse this gives some to take a pop, it remains that the Priests and catholic church in Ireland were fantastic to the people from famine times and before, for educating the people from hedge schools - and to a large extent are responsible for the upwards trend in educational levels in our society today.
Saviours of the poor and hungry, theneedy and inconsolable.
Individuals have excelled themselves , some famously , most only known to individual parishes.

The priests that helped foster sports esp football in the parishes I am associated with (Fr McNally pk in Feeney Co Derry) , to the parish priest that ensured that all local schools had a football and also organised food rations from the EU 'mountain'/surplus and personally distributed them throughout all the houses in the parish - 'there ya go Mrs X, youve a few hardy young lads who would like this good round steak'.

a few bad bustarts and the ineptitude of the hierarchy has allowed people to tar all with one brush.
Thats why I'd get rid of Brady , as his continuation will always allow people to moan about the Catholic church.
We need a new beginning and to properly reflect on the 95% of good and fantastic priests that this country was helped built by.

Aye dead on. The famine you say.

To quote the Bull McCabe

"Go on father, go on. Lock the gates to God's house. Sure they were locked at the time of the Famine too. No priest died the time of the Famine: only poor people like us. "

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 19, 2010, 10:54:38 AM
irrespective of what peoples opinions are on the catholic church and the excuse this gives some to take a pop, it remains that the Priests and catholic church in Ireland were fantastic to the people from famine times and before, for educating the people from hedge schools - and to a large extent are responsible for the upwards trend in educational levels in our society today.
Saviours of the poor and hungry, theneedy and inconsolable.
Individuals have excelled themselves , some famously , most only known to individual parishes.

The priests that helped foster sports esp football in the parishes I am associated with (Fr McNally pk in Feeney Co Derry) , to the parish priest that ensured that all local schools had a football and also organised food rations from the EU 'mountain'/surplus and personally distributed them throughout all the houses in the parish - 'there ya go Mrs X, youve a few hardy young lads who would like this good round steak'.

a few bad bustarts and the ineptitude of the hierarchy has allowed people to tar all with one brush.
Thats why I'd get rid of Brady , as his continuation will always allow people to moan about the Catholic church.
We need a new beginning and to properly reflect on the 95% of good and fantastic priests that this country was helped built by.

Well said.

Its also worth bearing in mind that perhaps not every allegation made is in fact true.

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 19, 2010, 11:36:06 AM


Its also worth bearing in mind that perhaps not every allegation made is in fact true.

very true, but paying people off and not clearing your name in a court of law puts a mirky cloud over your actions.

Priests certainly aren't all bad, but the good ones need to start reclaiming the good deeds of the church by getting rid of the bad apples.
It's the rules within this organisation which seems to allow these child abusers to operate I take umbridge with.

Quote from: saffron sam2 on March 19, 2010, 11:21:49 AM
Aye dead on. The famine you say.

To quote the Bull McCabe

"Go on father, go on. Lock the gates to God's house. Sure they were locked at the time of the Famine too. No priest died the time of the Famine: only poor people like us. "

ahh the bull mccabe - as ficticious as some of these 'scandal' stories !
:D

Yerra, the Bull.
Gone but not forgotten.

Quote from: johnneycool on March 19, 2010, 11:56:05 AM

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 19, 2010, 11:36:06 AM
Its also worth bearing in mind that perhaps not every allegation made is in fact true.

very true, but paying people off and not clearing your name in a court of law puts a mirky cloud over your actions.

Priests certainly aren't all bad, but the good ones need to start reclaiming the good deeds of the church by getting rid of the bad apples.
It's the rules within this organisation which seems to allow these child abusers to operate I take umbridge with.

the courts and the judicial system and the 'system' in general have proven that truth and proper justice are not always forthcoming in 'legal cases'.

its always the bad things that get more press.
One corrupt GAA treasurer and the entire GAA are looked at as embezzelers !

the 'Good' Priests will continue to do their 'job'. Thats what they are supposed to do. Maybe they should take on a PR guru. But thats not whats needed. Common sense is - and ordinary people realising that the noise is coming from those with an agenda.
The sex offenders etc need to be jailed/shot and the inept kicked out of the Irish catholic church.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 19, 2010, 12:19:29 PM
But thats not whats needed. Common sense is - and ordinary people realising that the noise is coming from those with an agenda.

You're not a bishop by any chance? I think the penny is finally dropping with most of them, but not with all their followers, it seems.

I think the "agenda" of most of those "making noise" is a hell of a lot more noble than that of those who continue to deny, prevaricate, squirm and holy-joe their way out of the truth.

Quote from: magpie seanie on March 19, 2010, 11:36:06 AM

Well said.

Its also worth bearing in mind that perhaps not every allegation made is in fact true.

It is also worth bearing in mind the low percentage of sexual abuse that is actually reported/alledged and the continuing policy of cover up of even PROVEN cases.

Quote from: saffron sam2 on March 19, 2010, 11:21:49 AM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 19, 2010, 10:54:38 AM
irrespective of what peoples opinions are on the catholic church and the excuse this gives some to take a pop, it remains that the Priests and catholic church in Ireland were fantastic to the people from famine times and before, for educating the people from hedge schools - and to a large extent are responsible for the upwards trend in educational levels in our society today.
Saviours of the poor and hungry, theneedy and inconsolable.
Individuals have excelled themselves , some famously , most only known to individual parishes.

The priests that helped foster sports esp football in the parishes I am associated with (Fr McNally pk in Feeney Co Derry) , to the parish priest that ensured that all local schools had a football and also organised food rations from the EU 'mountain'/surplus and personally distributed them throughout all the houses in the parish - 'there ya go Mrs X, youve a few hardy young lads who would like this good round steak'.

a few bad bustarts and the ineptitude of the hierarchy has allowed people to tar all with one brush.
Thats why I'd get rid of Brady , as his continuation will always allow people to moan about the Catholic church.
We need a new beginning and to properly reflect on the 95% of good and fantastic priests that this country was helped built by.

Aye dead on. The famine you say.

To quote the Bull McCabe

"Go on father, go on. Lock the gates to God's house. Sure they were locked at the time of the Famine too. No priest died the time of the Famine: only poor people like us. "

They've some CV  alrite

The International Brigade
 
..Many Irishmen heard the call of Franco
Joined Hitler and Mussolini too
Propaganda from the pulpit and newspapers
Helped O'Duffy to enlist his crew.

The call came from Maynooth, "support the facists"
The men of cloth had failed yet again
When the Bishops blessed the Blueshirts in Dun Laoghaire
As they sailed beneath the swastika to Spain.

Quote from: Hardy on March 19, 2010, 12:27:43 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 19, 2010, 12:19:29 PM
But thats not whats needed. Common sense is - and ordinary people realising that the noise is coming from those with an agenda.

You're not a bishop by any chance? I think the penny is finally dropping with most of them, but not with all their followers, it seems.

I think the "agenda" of most of those "making noise" is a hell of a lot more noble than that of those who continue to deny, prevaricate, squirm and holy-joe their way out of the truth.

I believe and expect that the victims of this will be granted justice and recompense.
I would have liked to see a stronger blade slashing those guilty of crimes out of their safe nests and into jail without parole. Same for those who stopped the reports and prolonged the problem.
those guilty of doing nothing to be sacked and cast aside.
those 95% remaining should be allowed to continue on with their good work.

From GAA circles, we know bleating and whinging dont get people very far - see gpa.
Especially from people with an axe to grind (not connected to the victims).

if you dont like he catholic church - fine. stay out of it.
if you are a chuch goer etc, then take whatever measures you have or can to get your point across.
I have. whether it cuts any ice I dont know.
However all this sensationalism from people outside the tent only makes a worse situation even worse, and the victims are not helped by that , neither are the faithful or the good 95% of priests and the good work they are still trying to do.

There is a lot of chat on here about good priests and that they "arn't all bad".

Well, for me, they are ALL guilty by staying silent. If they are good priests, then it's time they stood
up and added their voice to the millions world wide who are crying out for change within the church.

Until the good priests speak out, they are as guilty as the abusers.

All this sympathy for the church and good priests make me sick. How about some compassion for the innocent victims?

Quote from: give her dixie on March 19, 2010, 03:29:02 PM
There is a lot of chat on here about good priests and that they "arn't all bad".

Well, for me, they are ALL guilty by staying silent. If they are good priests, then it's time they stood
up and added their voice to the millions world wide who are crying out for change within the church.
Until the good priests speak out, they are as guilty as the abusers.
All this sympathy for the church and good priests make me sick. How about some compassion for the innocent victims?

thats a good bit arse about face
yu want people, innocent of all wrong doings, and who were not party to any actual info apart from like the rest of us - maybe hearing that something was going on -  to speak up about it as some kind of methodology to deflect blame from themselves.
thats genius alright.
I dont think compassion for the victims of the sexual abuse are lacking compassion.
Personally I'd like massive compo from the state and catholic church for this , plus the offenders to be shot (but accept that as this wont happen, jail for life is the only alternative - but not enough imo).
Does this help the victims, does the good priests talking about something they may or may not (mostly not) know about help things? - I'd doubt it, it would only upset the victims more I would say.

this is an example of the crazed views/requests a lot of people have been hounded into because of the sensationalisation of all of this. How the fcuk can good people continue to work quietly and effectively when loonies are calling for them to speak out.
When would this be enough though?
Speaking out, no, they have to criticise and call for blood.
Not enough then, they must castigate the catholic church. Not enough, ok then they must criticise the vatican.
OK thats not enough- the whole catholic church must be held responsible - including father pepe in bora bora.
Not enough - the whole catholic church must be disbanded.
Thats not enough either - because with some people over reaction to hit out at the church is the only reason. Not for the victims and not for the good priests and not for the good work of the Church in Ireland and worldwide.

feck sake.

You're spot on on this LB. As an example, there was a teacher (lay) in a school (catholic sector but no clergy involved on a day to day basis) who I'd heard rumours about for years. He even had a commonly known nickname in line with all those rumours. Eventually charged, tried and jailed, but only ten years after I and I presume countless others ahd heard rumours etc. He  continued to teach during all that time. Now should I be blamed for this guy, even though I had long since left school, but I had "heard the rumours" but did nothing, and I'm sure at least a hundred others could say the same?

Why should good priests suffer for the faults of a tiny minority? Also how many of these complaints have been supported by incontrovertible evidence?

At the end of the day the Church has apologised, all so called confidential deals should be made public, but the time has come to move on.

Some wagon-circling going on here. You'd imagine the priests were the victims in all of this. People seem more concerned for the future of the church than anything else. Just like the bishops.

"The church has apologised".

They still don't get it, do they?

We do get it. It seems to me that the church has apologised, admitted its faults and failings, and has taken action to ensure there will be no recurrence. All priests who have been accused, and where appropriate evidence has been available, have been prosecuted and jailed. Of course everything humanly possible that can be done for victims should be done.

If anyone thinks that continued pressure will lead to the Catholic Church as an entity disappearing (which seems to be what a lot of people would love to see)  would need to think again.

Do not blame God's Church which has survived for over 2000 years, for the faults of a relatively few members.

Quote from: T Fearon on March 19, 2010, 04:36:35 PMAll priests who have been accused, and where appropriate evidence has been available, have been prosecuted and jailed.

It appears to have escaped your notice, then, that this is effectively what the entire debate is about. The institutional church, right up to this day, has continued to do its damndest to keep the appropriate evidence well and truly UNavailable.

But they have apologised. In fact we're nauseated at this stage by the continuing apologies while the conniving, covering up and prevarication continue and their loose-cannon lawyers incionveniently let the cat out of the bag that the canon "law" still doesn't require them to tell the truth to the civil authorities.

QuoteIt appears to have escaped your notice, then, that this is effectively what the entire debate is about. The institutional church, right up to this day, has continued to do its damndest to to make the appropriate evidence well and truly UNavailable.

But the role of your average foot solider priest in setting these policies is negligible. You might as well say that the person who takes your application form for an account at Anglo-Irish bank is tacitly condoning Sean Fitzpatrick.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 19, 2010, 03:53:09 PM

Quote from: give her dixie on March 19, 2010, 03:29:02 PM
There is a lot of chat on here about good priests and that they "arn't all bad".

Well, for me, they are ALL guilty by staying silent. If they are good priests, then it's time they stood
up and added their voice to the millions world wide who are crying out for change within the church.
Until the good priests speak out, they are as guilty as the abusers.
All this sympathy for the church and good priests make me sick. How about some compassion for the innocent victims?

thats a good bit arse about face
yu want people, innocent of all wrong doings, and who were not party to any actual info apart from like the rest of us - maybe hearing that something was going on -  to speak up about it as some kind of methodology to deflect blame from themselves.
thats genius alright.
I dont think compassion for the victims of the sexual abuse are lacking compassion.
Personally I'd like massive compo from the state and catholic church for this , plus the offenders to be shot (but accept that as this wont happen, jail for life is the only alternative - but not enough imo).
Does this help the victims, does the good priests talking about something they may or may not (mostly not) know about help things? - I'd doubt it, it would only upset the victims more I would say.

this is an example of the crazed views/requests a lot of people have been hounded into because of the sensationalisation of all of this. How the fcuk can good people continue to work quietly and effectively when loonies are calling for them to speak out.
When would this be enough though?
Speaking out, no, they have to criticise and call for blood.
Not enough then, they must castigate the catholic church. Not enough, ok then they must criticise the vatican.
OK thats not enough- the whole catholic church must be held responsible - including father pepe in bora bora.
Not enough - the whole catholic church must be disbanded.
Thats not enough either - because with some people over reaction to hit out at the church is the only reason. Not for the victims and not for the good priests and not for the good work of the Church in Ireland and worldwide.

feck sake.

I think what Dixie is saying is a bit like what happened in the US where a large group of priests came together to force out a cardinal.

Quote from: armaghniac on March 19, 2010, 05:04:31 PM

QuoteIt appears to have escaped your notice, then, that this is effectively what the entire debate is about. The institutional church, right up to this day, has continued to do its damndest to to make the appropriate evidence well and truly UNavailable.

But the role of your average foot solider priest in setting these policies is negligible. You might as well say that the person who takes your application form for an account at Anglo-Irish bank is tacitly condoning Sean Fitzpatrick.

You have a point, Armaghniac - it was Fearon who came out with "the church has apologised"  as he metaphorically walked off merrily whistling as if everything was grand because of that. I was responding to that.

But to take your point - I'd have agreed with you up to about (to be generous) ten years ago. There cannot be a priest in the country who hasn't been aware for at least that amount of time what the right course of action is in cases of even suspicion of child abuse. That was when any and every priest (or anyone else) who had suspicions about the activities of possible paedophiles, either currently or in the past, lost his moral right to say nothing.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 19, 2010, 10:54:38 AM
irrespective of what peoples opinions are on the catholic church and the excuse this gives some to take a pop, it remains that the Priests and catholic church in Ireland were fantastic to the people from famine times and before, for educating the people from hedge schools - and to a large extent are responsible for the upwards trend in educational levels in our society today.
Saviours of the poor and hungry, theneedy and inconsolable.
Individuals have excelled themselves , some famously , most only known to individual parishes.

The priests that helped foster sports esp football in the parishes I am associated with (Fr McNally pk in Feeney Co Derry) , to the parish priest that ensured that all local schools had a football and also organised food rations from the EU 'mountain'/surplus and personally distributed them throughout all the houses in the parish - 'there ya go Mrs X, youve a few hardy young lads who would like this good round steak'.

a few bad bustarts and the ineptitude of the hierarchy has allowed people to tar all with one brush.
Thats why I'd get rid of Brady , as his continuation will always allow people to moan about the Catholic church.
We need a new beginning and to properly reflect on the 95% of good and fantastic priests that this country was helped built by.

Meant to reply to this earlier. You tend to look at this through rose tinted glasses lb. Sure you can find good examples of how priests and the church helped people but I contend you can find equal amounts instances where they did the opposite. For example, the cathedral in Longford that recently burnt down was built in the middle of the famine - hardly what starving people needed as a top priority. The banning of communion and ex communication of rebels in every single rebellion against our Birtish oppressor was another, right back to 1798 and maybe further (the brits always like to throw the bishop a few crumbs from the table to keep him happy). The war they waged against Parnell after they supported him initially when they were worried about the power of the IRB (another example of the church more interested in having power than working towards freeing the people from Tyranny) and indeed their hatred of the IRB was so much they almost collapsed the GAA due to many IRB men holding office by denouncing the organisation from the pulpit. Sure there are equal amounts of good things but lets get real that there is good and bad in everything.

Quote from: Hardy on March 19, 2010, 05:11:32 PM
You have a point, Armaghniac - it was Fearon who came out with "the church has apologised"  as he metaphorically walked off merrily whistling as if everything was grand because of that. I was responding to that.

That was your first mistake

Quote from: deiseach on March 19, 2010, 05:23:14 PM

Quote from: Hardy on March 19, 2010, 05:11:32 PM
You have a point, Armaghniac - it was Fearon who came out with "the church has apologised"  as he metaphorically walked off merrily whistling as if everything was grand because of that. I was responding to that.

That was your first mistake

Breaking my own first rule.

I went to a secondary school run by priests. About 15% of the students were boarders.

IMHO the worst of the priests dished out the odd excessive beating while the best of them would leave a lasting and positive impression on most who passed through. Overall they made a massive contribution to those who attended. I believe AFAIK none of them have ever been implicated in any abuse and I would be astonished if they were.

Fine men and a fine contribution and I'd shake hands with any of them now.

However that does not mean that the small percentage of the church that have abused children should be forgiven because of the good deeds of the rest.

The scope of the Murphy report should be extended to include the whole country immediately otherwise there will never be closure. Without the facts properly compiled we have threads like this.

We don't want trial by Joe Duffy, we need a properly conducted investigation. Then we might have closure.

http://www.alliancesupport.org/news/archives/000843.html

Quote from: T Fearon on March 19, 2010, 04:12:18 PM
At the end of the day the Church has apologised, all so called confidential deals should be made public, but the time has come to move on.

firstly I.M.O
They apologised because they caught out, with that i mean the cover ups we know of and the endless ones we don't...
Secondly
An apology is just words, that will never give those who were victims their lives back or erase their traumatised childhoods.
thirdly...
who is it the needs to "move on" is it those who form opinions or those who actually experience abuse (something that i believe no one, unless a Victim can truly understand).

The systemic abuse of children from paedophiles and brutalists who hid under the guise of men and women of the cloth is probably more awful and disgusting a tragedy than bloody sunday (not that bloody sunday is in anyway trivialised by anything). But we've boys on here who are still calling for all the enquiries and apologies and convictions from that awful day in Derry, who would in the same breath tell us that the church has done its best to make up for what went on.

Well you all rightly wont let the british off so lightly - collusion, cover up, shoot to kill and so on and so forth.

Whats different about the church?

The difference is that we are the Church, and i have not heard anyone argue that transgressors should be excused, the discussion has centred on degrees of guilt and punishment

Quote from: Pangurban on March 19, 2010, 08:15:57 PM
The difference is that we are the Church, and i have not heard anyone argue that transgressors should be excused, the discussion has centred on degrees of guilt and punishment

So it's as simple as double standards then.

Quote from: Puckoon on March 19, 2010, 06:59:51 PM
The systemic abuse of children from paedophiles and brutalists who hid under the guise of men and women of the cloth is probably more awful and disgusting a tragedy than bloody sunday (not that bloody sunday is in anyway trivialised by anything). But we've boys on here who are still calling for all the enquiries and apologies and convictions from that awful day in Derry, who would in the same breath tell us that the church has done its best to make up for what went on.

Well you all rightly wont let the british off so lightly - collusion, cover up, shoot to kill and so on and so forth.

Whats different about the church?

my sentiments cover all that
shoot/jail the offenders, and sack those who did nothing. Thats just to clear out the church and prune it back so what remains is crystal clean and free from blame.

same goes for the colluding folk in the north of Ireland.Though actually I dont think the colluding shoule be taken to task - just those guilty of killing (both sides before you ask - as long as the judicial process is correct and above board).
So maybe that is double standards , being harder on the priests and catholic church.

What will happen punishmentwise, will be conducted by the catholic church behind closed doors - as all large organisations will do  - financial (goldman sachs) , sporting (Gaa, soccer bodies, rugby bodies etc), political (internal gov inquiries etc)

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 20, 2010, 11:34:47 AM
What will happen punishmentwise, will be conducted by the catholic church behind closed doors - as all large organisations will do  - financial (goldman sachs) , sporting (Gaa, soccer bodies, rugby bodies etc), political (internal gov inquiries etc)

That just isn't going to suffice at this stage. If the Church wants to survive this and continue with any credibility, justice not only needs to be done, but needs to be seen to be done. Far too much has been conducted behind closed doors already - that's a large part of why this is such a mess already.

Also, where there are legal/criminal implications, punishment will definitely not be conducted by the church behind closed doors.

Thread hijacked! Quel surprise.
Could this discussion not be carried out on the other Clerical abuse threads?  ::)

Not a big church man, but reckon the RC church needs some big PR guru, to ride in (excuse the pun) on a big black stallion (excuse the pun), and highlight the good they've done. We're losing / going to lose a load of good priests because of the medias excessive addiction with a few; not saying it shouln't be highlighted, just that it should be broadcast in as an unbiased way as possible

Quote from: ardal on March 20, 2010, 09:56:18 PM
Not a big church man, but reckon the RC church needs some big PR guru, to ride in (excuse the pun) on a big black stallion (excuse the pun), and highlight the good they've done. We're losing / going to lose a load of good priests because of the medias excessive addiction with a few; not saying it shouln't be highlighted, just that it should be broadcast in as an unbiased way as possible

If you had your head out of yer arse,  ie trolling in the Celtic thread :), you might have noticed that blame the media for a witch-hunt has been a constant theme, right up to Cardinal Brady's homily demanding that the drip drip effect be stopped.

Indeed the Pope himself (when Cardinal) was a great proponent of the media witch-hunt theory, probably as he was the head of the Inquisition at the time.
(intellect warning - the statistics he used are wrong and do not reflect actual figures of abuse done by clergy in the US, estimated at least 5%)

http://www.zenit.org/article-5979?l=english (http://www.zenit.org/article-5979?l=english)
Cardinal Ratzinger: "In the United States, there is constant news on this topic, but less than 1% of priests are guilty of acts of this type. The constant presence of these news items does not correspond to the objectivity of the information nor to the statistical objectivity of the facts. Therefore, one comes to the conclusion that it is intentional, manipulated, that there is a desire to discredit the Church. It is a logical and well-founded conclusion."

Father Murphy from old Kilcormack.

Maximilian Kolbe.

Quote from: Main Street on March 20, 2010, 10:55:11 PM

Quote from: ardal on March 20, 2010, 09:56:18 PM
Not a big church man, but reckon the RC church needs some big PR guru, to ride in (excuse the pun) on a big black stallion (excuse the pun), and highlight the good they've done. We're losing / going to lose a load of good priests because of the medias excessive addiction with a few; not saying it shouln't be highlighted, just that it should be broadcast in as an unbiased way as possible

If you had your head out of yer arse,  ie trolling in the Celtic thread :), you might have noticed that blame the media for a witch-hunt has been a constant theme, right up to Cardinal Brady's homily demanding that the drip drip effect be stopped.

Indeed the Pope himself (when Cardinal) was a great proponent of the media witch-hunt theory, probably as he was the head of the Inquisition at the time.
(intellect warning - the statistics he used are wrong and do not reflect actual figures of abuse done by clergy in the US, estimated at least 5%)

http://www.zenit.org/article-5979?l=english (http://www.zenit.org/article-5979?l=english)
Cardinal Ratzinger: "In the United States, there is constant news on this topic, but less than 1% of priests are guilty of acts of this type. The constant presence of these news items does not correspond to the objectivity of the information nor to the statistical objectivity of the facts. Therefore, one comes to the conclusion that it is intentional, manipulated, that there is a desire to discredit the Church. It is a logical and well-founded conclusion."

MS estimated by who?
As I've said before can we please keep this thread on topic.

 on May 18, 2001 Ratzinger sent a letter to every bishop in the Catholic Church.[5] This letter reminded them of the strict penalties facing those who revealed confidential details concerning enquiries into allegations against priests of certain grave ecclesiastical crimes, including sexual abuse, which were reserved to the jurisdiction of the Congregation. The letter extended the prescription or statute of limitations for these crimes to ten years.

Quote from: fearbrags on March 21, 2010, 10:05:49 PM
on May 18, 2001 Ratzinger sent a letter to every bishop in the Catholic Church.[5] This letter reminded them of the strict penalties facing those who revealed confidential details concerning enquiries into allegations against priests of certain grave ecclesiastical crimes, including sexual abuse, which were reserved to the jurisdiction of the Congregation. The letter extended the prescription or statute of limitations for these crimes to ten years.

Stick it on thte right thread please.

He  was  a priest  once  you  know ;)

Our local priest is one of the most spiritual and humble men one would ever meet, he is very progressive and all for reform and often gives two fingers to the establishment through his sermons, i.e. women preists etc.  If he is doing a wedding, all choices are left up to the couple and as he says himself "its the sacrament thats important and not his view on how services should be conducted" He has been in our parish for nearly 20 years now and our community have been greatly enhanced by his presence. This is how the church shold be run, good spriitual men guiding their people and just been there for them when times are tough. I often wonder are good men like this embarrased by the churches actions and does it impact on thier faith?

Good shout GDA
while many here are looking for the Catholic church to become 'accountable to THEM' and put up silly non arguments where the bold truth is that Priests (with a number of exceptions) have helped drag this county and its people out of the bogs and gutters and helped educate them and turn us into a huge success story.
I'd also like to nominate the much maligned Christian brothers order too - not priests , but have also been guilty of some of their people abusing kids, but all in all, these guys have contributed as much towards the success of the country and the few slaps and beatings we got as kids (while not condoned) didnt do us too much harm. In those days the brutish Irish males prob needed that ! (still required in northern counties I think)  ;)

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 22, 2010, 09:51:36 AM
Good shout GDA
while many here are looking for the Catholic church to become 'accountable to THEM' and put up silly non arguments where the bold truth is that Priests (with a number of exceptions) have helped drag this county and its people out of the bogs and gutters and helped educate them and turn us into a huge success story.
I'd also like to nominate the much maligned Christian brothers order too - not priests , but have also been guilty of some of their people abusing kids, but all in all, these guys have contributed as much towards the success of the country and the few slaps and beatings we got as kids (while not condoned) didnt do us too much harm. In those days the brutish Irish males prob needed that ! (still required in northern counties I think)  ;)

Definently- get the straps back into the schools and flail the children... well said lynchboy. It is so repressive I cant give my children regular beatings. This country's gone to the dogs  :-\   

Quote from: An Gaeilgoir on March 22, 2010, 09:49:52 AM
Our local priest is one of the most spiritual and humble men one would ever meet, he is very progressive and all for reform and often gives two fingers to the establishment through his sermons, i.e. women preists etc.  If he is doing a wedding, all choices are left up to the couple and as he says himself "its the sacrament thats important and not his view on how services should be conducted" He has been in our parish for nearly 20 years now and our community have been greatly enhanced by his presence. This is how the church shold be run, good spriitual men guiding their people and just been there for them when times are tough. I often wonder are good men like this embarrased by the churches actions and does it impact on thier faith?

Those types of priests would have serious issues with the way the church is run and are frowned upon by the upper echelons whose main concern is who is the foremost theological academic than what is happening in real peoples lives. Their guiding light is the truth which keeps their faith strong. I know a few priests who are like the man you describe and 10 minutes in their company does more for my faith than anything else I've ever experienced.

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 22, 2010, 10:32:00 AM
the few slaps and beatings we got as kids (while not condoned) didnt do us too much harm. In those days the brutish Irish males prob needed that ! (still required in northern counties I think)  ;)

Definently- get the straps back into the schools and flail the children... well said lynchboy. It is so repressive I cant give my children regular beatings. This country's gone to the dogs  :-\
[/quote]
you're right - Modern society has gone so bad that the cane culture is sorely (no pun intended) missed by the crass mannerless anti-social people all around us.

I'd go so far as to introduce beatings for their parents too !
;)

so is the lynch in your username,your surname,or do you agree with lynching people?i wouldnt be surprised if ti was the latter.

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 21, 2010, 09:10:33 PM

Quote from: Main Street on March 20, 2010, 10:55:11 PM

Quote from: ardal on March 20, 2010, 09:56:18 PM
Not a big church man, but reckon the RC church needs some big PR guru, to ride in (excuse the pun) on a big black stallion (excuse the pun), and highlight the good they've done. We're losing / going to lose a load of good priests because of the medias excessive addiction with a few; not saying it shouln't be highlighted, just that it should be broadcast in as an unbiased way as possible

If you had your head out of yer arse,  ie trolling in the Celtic thread :), you might have noticed that blame the media for a witch-hunt has been a constant theme, right up to Cardinal Brady's homily demanding that the drip drip effect be stopped.

Indeed the Pope himself (when Cardinal) was a great proponent of the media witch-hunt theory, probably as he was the head of the Inquisition at the time.
(intellect warning - the statistics he used are wrong and do not reflect actual figures of abuse done by clergy in the US, estimated at least 5%)

http://www.zenit.org/article-5979?l=english (http://www.zenit.org/article-5979?l=english)
Cardinal Ratzinger: "In the United States, there is constant news on this topic, but less than 1% of priests are guilty of acts of this type. The constant presence of these news items does not correspond to the objectivity of the information nor to the statistical objectivity of the facts. Therefore, one comes to the conclusion that it is intentional, manipulated, that there is a desire to discredit the Church. It is a logical and well-founded conclusion."

MS estimated by who?

By the Church itself in the USA ::)
http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/PriestAbuseScandal.htm (http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/PriestAbuseScandal.htm)

The Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate (CARA) reports a total of 94,607 priests for the period 1960-2002. When we look at the time period covered by the CARA database, the number of priests with allegations of sexual abuse is 4,127. Thus, the percentage of priests accused for this time period is 4.3% if we rely on the CARA figures assessing the total number of priests.

If we examine the differences between diocesan and religious priests, then our numbers result in a total of 4.3% of diocesan priests with allegations of abuse and 2.5% of religious priests with allegations of abuse. The CARA numbers yield a total of 5% of diocesan priests from 1960-1996 with allegations of abuse and 2.7% of religious priests from 1960-1996 with allegations of abuse.

QuoteAs I've said before can we please keep this thread on topic.]As I've said before can we please keep this thread on topic.

Then don't ask silly questions :)

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 22, 2010, 11:11:32 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 22, 2010, 10:32:00 AM
the few slaps and beatings we got as kids (while not condoned) didnt do us too much harm. In those days the brutish Irish males prob needed that ! (still required in northern counties I think)  ;)

Definently- get the straps back into the schools and flail the children... well said lynchboy. It is so repressive I cant give my children regular beatings. This country's gone to the dogs  :-\

you're right - Modern society has gone so bad that the cane culture is sorely (no pun intended) missed by the crass mannerless anti-social people all around us.

I'd go so far as to introduce beatings for their parents too ![/quote]



Why not go even further like the Pope and blame the drop in levels of faith in society as the context for the sex abuse.
'if only we had more faith in the Church this would not have hapenned'.

Lynchbhoy, there was/is no context for the level of Church institutional/ hierarchial criminal complicity in allowing sex offenders the chance to avoid prosecution and the opportunity to continue with their repeated abuse crimes.
Once that is accepted 100% without reservation/excuse/prevarication then I could accept that there is a level of honesty and openness entering into the debate.
Blaming the abusers, the bad apples, is just an exercise in scapegoatism.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 22, 2010, 11:11:32 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 22, 2010, 10:32:00 AM
the few slaps and beatings we got as kids (while not condoned) didnt do us too much harm. In those days the brutish Irish males prob needed that ! (still required in northern counties I think)  ;)

Definently- get the straps back into the schools and flail the children... well said lynchboy. It is so repressive I cant give my children regular beatings. This country's gone to the dogs  :-\

you're right - Modern society has gone so bad that the cane culture is sorely (no pun intended) missed by the crass mannerless anti-social people all around us.

I'd go so far as to introduce beatings for their parents too !
;)
[/quote]

Another thing has ruined society is this habit of women to think for themselves and I trace it back to the abolition of an old law by fuddy-duddys like those trying to give our bishops  a bad name.
There was an old law, gave the expression 'Rule of Thumb,' that "a man may beat a woman with a stick or rod as thick as his thumb and as long as his forearm."
Children and women have ruined this country by complaining about our beloved church and looking for equal rights.

Quote from: Main Street on March 22, 2010, 11:36:46 AM

Why not go even further like the Pope and blame the drop in levels of faith in society as the context for the sex abuse.
'if only we had more faith in the Church this would not have hapenned'.

Lynchbhoy, there was/is no context for the level of Church institutional/ hierarchial criminal complicity in allowing sex offenders the chance to avoid prosecution and the opportunity to continue with their repeated abuse crimes.
Once that is accepted 100% without reservation/excuse/prevarication then I could accept that there is a level of honesty and openness entering into the debate.
Blaming the abusers, the bad apples, is just an exercise in scapegoatism.

so you want to blame the innocents instead then ?
what do you and other people actually want ?
Lets have a bit of reality here.
there were offenders and the church fecked up. Yes. The Irish church mostly. What more can the vatican do.
When other institutions have fecked up and has affected human lives, the authorities first reaction is to deny and only EVENTUALLY justice is served. The michael neary fiasco, the hep C fiasco and other health board hushovers. The Bloody sunday enquiry - and all other such injustices and subsequent fights for justice etc etc.
The Catholic church in Ireland are 100% wrong for not dealing with this properly. But thats a common fault in human society in dealing with these things.

A bit of faith might go a it towards a better society, but I'd think that a bit of harsher discipline brought in at school would do a hell of a lot more. When the strap was outlawed, there was a period where lesser physical punishment existed. That was enough to do the job. The strap etc was too excessive. These days there is nothing and you see how society has ended up.

Meanwhile in the real world, good people (priests) are still loking out for the people of their parish , helping out with community groups and projects and maintaining a fairly sacrificial life that I would not have had the commitment to lead. They are to be commended with some of the projecs and improvements they bring to communities - including my own where they have campaigned for a new hospice - and delivered, campaigned for new primary and secondary schools - and delivered, and run various programmes for OAP's, poor, itinerants families and loads more stuff.
Good on them. You wont get that from capitalistic fat cats or governmental /council sources !

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 22, 2010, 11:57:23 AM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 22, 2010, 11:11:32 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 22, 2010, 10:32:00 AM
the few slaps and beatings we got as kids (while not condoned) didnt do us too much harm. In those days the brutish Irish males prob needed that ! (still required in northern counties I think)  ;)

Definently- get the straps back into the schools and flail the children... well said lynchboy. It is so repressive I cant give my children regular beatings. This country's gone to the dogs  :-\

you're right - Modern society has gone so bad that the cane culture is sorely (no pun intended) missed by the crass mannerless anti-social people all around us.

I'd go so far as to introduce beatings for their parents too !
;)

Another thing has ruined society is this habit of women to think for themselves and I trace it back to the abolition of an old law by fuddy-duddys like those trying to give our bishops  a bad name.
There was an old law, gave the expression 'Rule of Thumb,' that "a man may beat a woman with a stick or rod as thick as his thumb and as long as his forearm."
Children and women have ruined this country by complaining about our beloved church and looking for equal rights.
[/quote]
ach , now yer being silly !

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 22, 2010, 12:09:08 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 22, 2010, 11:57:23 AM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 22, 2010, 11:11:32 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 22, 2010, 10:32:00 AM
the few slaps and beatings we got as kids (while not condoned) didnt do us too much harm. In those days the brutish Irish males prob needed that ! (still required in northern counties I think)  ;)

Definently- get the straps back into the schools and flail the children... well said lynchboy. It is so repressive I cant give my children regular beatings. This country's gone to the dogs  :-\

you're right - Modern society has gone so bad that the cane culture is sorely (no pun intended) missed by the crass mannerless anti-social people all around us.

I'd go so far as to introduce beatings for their parents too !
;)

Another thing has ruined society is this habit of women to think for themselves and I trace it back to the abolition of an old law by fuddy-duddys like those trying to give our bishops  a bad name.
There was an old law, gave the expression 'Rule of Thumb,' that "a man may beat a woman with a stick or rod as thick as his thumb and as long as his forearm."
Children and women have ruined this country by complaining about our beloved church and looking for equal rights.

ach , now yer being silly !
[/quote]

Oh! I thought you were joking when  you posted this.  (I was skiting along with you!)...

Lynchboy.... "while many here are looking for the Catholic church to become 'accountable to THEM' and put up silly non arguments where the bold truth is that Priests (with a number of exceptions) have helped drag this county and its people out of the bogs and gutters and helped educate them and turn us into a huge success story.
I'd also like to nominate the much maligned Christian brothers order too - not priests , but have also been guilty of some of their people abusing kids, but all in all, these guys have contributed as much towards the success of the country and the few slaps and beatings we got as kids (while not condoned) didnt do us too much harm. In those days the brutish Irish males prob needed that !

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 22, 2010, 12:08:40 PM
so you want to blame the innocents instead then ?
what do you and other people actually want ?

I don't know what others want. I know what I expect as a standard,
honesty and openness.

Quotethere were offenders and the church fecked up. Yes. The Irish church mostly. What more can the vatican do.

The Vatican was not only aware of the abuse but dictated the cover up which allowed priests to continue with their sex abuse and frankly should there be a denial  of that is just plain silly at this stage.
I expect them to acknowledge that the cover up allowing priests to continue abuse was a crime, at least equal to the crime of the abusers.

QuoteWhen other institutions have fecked up and has affected human lives, the authorities first reaction is to deny and only EVENTUALLY justice is served. The michael neary fiasco, the hep C fiasco and other health board hushovers. The Bloody sunday enquiry - and all other such injustices and subsequent fights for justice etc etc.
The Catholic church in Ireland are 100% wrong for not dealing with this properly. But thats a common fault in human society in dealing with these things.

Not just 100% wrong , they were 100% part of the crime, the crime of omission. And even your opinion as stated is not supported by the Vatican or Cardinal Brady.
The Catholic Church in Ireland and the Vatican in Rome do not acknowledge that their part in the cover up was equal if not greater than the actual abuser. In fact the Pope has regarded  it as a 'misplaced good intention'. A far distance from an acknowledgement.

QuoteA bit of faith might go a it towards a better society, but I'd think that a bit of harsher discipline brought in at school would do a hell of a lot more. When the strap was outlawed, there was a period where lesser physical punishment existed. That was enough to do the job. The strap etc was too excessive. These days there is nothing and you see how society has ended up.

That has nothing to do with the sexual abuse. Sexual abuse thrived under the atmosphere of fear. The use of the strap in educational institutions as a means of a discipline method was in no way a deterrent to the sexual abuse, most probably the opposite.

QuoteMeanwhile in the real world, good people (priests) are still loking out for the people of their parish , helping out with community groups and projects and maintaining a fairly sacrificial life that I would not have had the commitment to lead. They are to be commended with some of the projecs and improvements they bring to communities - including my own where they have campaigned for a new hospice - and delivered, campaigned for new primary and secondary schools - and delivered, and run various programmes for OAP's, poor, itinerants families and loads more stuff.

And they should be supported by the hierarchy  instead of being dragged into the mire of canon law complicity in sex abuse crimes. And you may have noted as I have,  that there are many priests and bishops who have come out against the dictates of the Hierarchy and adopted the principle that the complicity was a crime and that the omission was a crime.

You get the feeling from reading the papal letter that Ratzinger is distancing Rome and the papacy from the cover up of child abuse in Ireland and it is the individual Bishops being hung out to dry for their 'misguided' actions.

It's a bit strange that the Bishops in America, Austria and even Germany all reacted to child abuse accusations in the same manner!!

On the contrary, the Bishops in the USA  in 2001 went a long way further than the Vatican or the Irish hierarchy
http://www.usccb.org/comm/restoretrust.shtml (http://www.usccb.org/comm/restoretrust.shtml)

and they formulated the guidelines of dealing with sexual abuse, not Cardinal Ratzingers tribunal clouded in canon law intricacies.

http://www.usccb.org/bishops/presidentialaddress.shtml (http://www.usccb.org/bishops/presidentialaddress.shtml)
Presidential Address -- Bishop Wilton D. Gregory
Dallas, Texas -- June 13, 2002
The Catholic Church in the United States is in a very grave crisis, perhaps the gravest we have faced. This crisis is not about a lack of faith in God. In fact, those Catholics who live their faith actively day-by-day will tell you that their faith in God is not in jeopardy; it has indeed been tested by this crisis, but it is very much intact. The crisis, in truth, is about a profound loss of confidence by the faithful in our leadership as shepherds, because of our failures in addressing the crime of the sexual abuse of children and young people by priests and Church personnel

We are the ones, whether through ignorance or lack of vigilance, or – God forbid – with knowledge, who allowed priest abusers to remain in ministry and reassigned them to communities where they continued to abuse.
We are the ones who chose not to report the criminal actions of priests to the authorities, because the law did not require this.
We are the ones who worried more about the possibility of scandal than in bringing about the kind of openness that helps prevent abuse.
And we are the ones who, at times, responded to victims and their families as adversaries and not as suffering members of the Church.

etc etc

and contrast that text with the one from the then Pope to the American Bishops.
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2002/april/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20020423_usa-cardinals_en.html (http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/speeches/2002/april/documents/hf_jp-ii_spe_20020423_usa-cardinals_en.html)
where the Pope called the abuse a crime and a sin but excused the actions of the child abuse protectors
"It is true that a generalized lack of knowledge of the nature of the problem and also at times the advice of clinical experts led Bishops to make decisions which subsequent events showed to be wrong."

Quote from: Main Street on March 22, 2010, 01:15:24 PM

I don't know what others want. I know what I expect as a standard,
honesty and openness.[/quote]
- you will get the same levels of openness as the health board etc. We'd like more but
thats the norm.

Quote
The Vatican was not only aware of the abuse but dictated the cover up which allowed
priests to continue with their sex abuse and frankly should there be a denial  of that
is just plain silly at this stage.
I expect them to acknowledge that the cover up allowing priests to continue abuse was a
crime, at least equal to the crime of the abusers.

Quote
I disagree that the vatican moved to cover this up, there was def knowledge, but the cover
up guilt remains with Irish catholic church colluders.

Quote

Quote
Not just 100% wrong , they were 100% part of the crime, the crime of omission. And even
your opinion as stated is not supported by the Vatican or Cardinal Brady.
The Catholic Church in Ireland and the Vatican in Rome do not acknowledge that their part
in the cover up was equal if not greater than the actual abuser. In fact the Pope has
regarded  it as a 'misplaced good intention'. A far distance from an acknowledgement.

Quote
I dont agree that the vatican shares equal blame in this, or in any cover up.

That has nothing to do with the sexual abuse. Sexual abuse thrived under the atmosphere of
fear. The use of the strap in educational institutions as a means of a discipline method
was in no way a deterrent to the sexual abuse, most probably the opposite.

Quote
I was not talking about the sexual abuse here, just modern behavious and lack of standards.

Quote
And they should be supported by the hierarchy  instead of being dragged into the mire of
canon law complicity in sex abuse crimes. And you may have noted as I have,  that there
are many priests and bishops who have come out against the dictates of the Hierarchy and
adopted the principle that the complicity was a crime and that the omission was a crime.

Dragging everyone into it including the innocents is most def not any solution, way forward
or even of any help to the victims.
that would have finger pointing at some innocent old priest who didnt publicly speak out and
have his name dragged through the mud too.
Let the us all and the judicial system concentrate on the guilty - the sex offenders and
those who went out of their way at the top of the tree in Ireland to protect them.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 22, 2010, 03:37:04 PM

Quote from: Main Street on March 22, 2010, 01:15:24 PM

I don't know what others want. I know what I expect as a standard,
honesty and openness.

- you will get the same levels of openness as the health board etc. We'd like more but
thats the norm.

Since when did anyone ever go to the health board for moral leadership?

You do of course make the valid point that cover ups happen in all walks of human life and the church is just one of many institutions who will go to whatever lengths possible to protect the institution from any harm. So it's very HUMAN in that regard. Not much influence from the heavanly father in their thinking taking place here.

Why anyone would look to these type of institutions for guidance as they ponder through life is just beyond my comprehension. I just don't get it. Brainwashing from an early age is the only explaination I can think of. Some must be more predisposed than others not to question such well formed mental constructs.

Quote from: theskull1 on March 22, 2010, 04:18:05 PM

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 22, 2010, 03:37:04 PM

Quote from: Main Street on March 22, 2010, 01:15:24 PM

I don't know what others want. I know what I expect as a standard,
honesty and openness.

- you will get the same levels of openness as the health board etc. We'd like more but
thats the norm.

Since when did anyone ever go to the health board for moral leadership?

You do of course make the valid point that cover ups happen in all walks of human life and the church is just one of many institutions who will go to whatever lengths possible to protect the institution from any harm. So it's very HUMAN in that regard. Not much influence from the heavanly father in their thinking taking place here.

Why anyone would look to these type of institutions for guidance as they ponder through life is just beyond my comprehension. I just don't get it. Brainwashing from an early age is the only explaination I can think of. Some must be more predisposed than others not to question such well formed mental constructs.

not guidance, just examples.
could hav cited the GAA, irfu, fai, ifa etc etc as well as most of the large multi-nationals that wont air their dirty linen in public and deal with their own problems behind their own large and locked doors.
I picked out the health board as that example (as well as the bloody sunday one) affects human lives more directly.
Not brainwashing at all, just reality of how institutions handle their affairs/problems.
the Catholic church have done plenty wrong but, they are doing what everyone else does.
I am sure financial and precedence/implication reasons are why these people all do this.

anyhow, this still does not affect the grass roots priest and parish from the good work that it does. Some people say that the trocaire collections would be better spent at home than abroad...but thats another discussion

Grass roots priests are just sheep when it comes to these scandals. They have displayed no courage by speaking out against the controlling hierarchy. Of course they're great guys for the jobs that they're trained for (weddings funerals christenings confession the sick etc) but when the difficult moral issues arise from within, really you would expect men of the cloth to consider what their hero jesus would have done and not think twice about speaking out with a loud voice about what the institution has been up to.

What does that say to you about these grass roots priests. Are you not in anyway disappointed in the way they stayed silent along with their masters?

You are missing the pertinent point by a country mile, Lynchbhoy.

A good organisation in a serious criminal conspiracy of this nature is not excused from those criminal actions by a sign of the times excuse  when it helped create, maintain and sustain that ethos of untouchability.
How can it be said in a way that you can understand?
I suggest you read my linked address of the US bishop in 2002 from a previous post and compare it to the feeble excuses the Pope is still offering today, even compare it to the initial response of the hapless Cardinal Brady of recent days.
Certainly the US bishops in 2002 had no bones about admitting that they partook in a criminal conspiracy. I read no weighing up of good actions versus immoral actions, no feeble excuses, no excuses full stop.

Search deeper for moral strength my son ;D

Quote from: johnneycool on March 22, 2010, 01:41:04 PMIt's a bit strange that the Bishops in America, Austria and even Germany all reacted to child abuse accusations in the same manner!!

Hmmm its almost as if they were taking orders from the same place.... ???

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 22, 2010, 04:33:01 PM
could hav cited the GAA, irfu, fai, ifa etc etc as well as most of the large multi-nationals that wont air their dirty linen in public and deal with their own problems behind their own large and locked doors.

Criminal matters? As serious as sex abuse?

All your doing TYP is exposing the truth that many human beings have betrayed children in the interests of protecting their friends and institutions reputation.

Those people who did such things have lost any authority and dignity and should they hang their heads in shame till the day they die. They should now not be given another chance to lead those orginisations after handing out a limp apology. It's over for them (and that includes those who turned a blind eye leaving others to act) when you think about it.

Would you not agree?

Quote from: Take Your Points on March 22, 2010, 08:49:46 PM

Quote from: theskull1 on March 22, 2010, 08:30:31 PM
All your doing TYP is exposing the truth that many human beings have betrayed children in the interests of protecting their friends and institutions reputation.

Exactly.  The Church is not the only organisation with access to children which has had problems with some of its members betraying the trust placed in them by society in general and in particular by parents.

I think the initial point made by Maguire still stands.

One one hand we have an entire organisation - where non participating members were fully aware of what was being done to young children and stood by and let it continue.

Even in the swimming paedophile ring - one of them was a priest!

Quote from: Take Your Points on March 22, 2010, 08:49:46 PM

Quote from: theskull1 on March 22, 2010, 08:30:31 PM
All your doing TYP is exposing the truth that many human beings have betrayed children in the interests of protecting their friends and institutions reputation.

Exactly.  The Church is not the only organisation with access to children which has had problems with some of its members betraying the trust placed in them by society in general and in particular by parents.

Gary O'Toole blew the lid on swimming abuse and while it wasn't perfectly handled the problem was dealt with magnificently in  comparison to the church's decades of heel dragging. Can anyone name a clerical equivalent of O'Toole who blew the lid on his own organisation?

Quote from: Take Your Points on March 22, 2010, 09:46:11 PM
Some scandals have been forgotten in our haste to condemn others (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kincora_Boys'_Home)

Not a bad article by Liam Clarke linked to Sunday's gospel (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article7069665.ece)

You are right, we are all sinners so we should keep our mouths shut about pedophile priests.

Quote from: Take Your Points on March 22, 2010, 09:46:11 PM
Some scandals have been forgotten in our haste to condemn others (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kincora_Boys'_Home)

Not a bad article by Liam Clarke linked to Sunday's gospel (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article7069665.ece)

to quote

"The whole of society has failed child-abuse victims. Many who rush to condemn shy away from confronting the truth when it touches their own interests. To adapt the biblical story, those who live in glass houses should not throw the first stone."



This is really what it has boiled down to? Who is trying to kid who with that kind of nonsense. It isnt a bad article in that it highlights other situations in which child abuse was dumbed down. If this is what protectors of the church need to wheel out however to play the "everyone is responsible card" its somewhat pathetic.

That kind of tripe argument wouldnt fly from a pupil in school uniform who found himself in a headmasters office for stealing sweets from a shop at lunch time along with other pupils - how on earth is it relevant in the principles of child sex abuse cover up?

Quote from: Take Your Points on March 22, 2010, 10:23:53 PM
My point is being lost.  It is that we need to take a balanced but vigilant and intolerant view of the sickness we have in our society which is the abuse of the most vunerable, particularly by those in positions of trust, and the willingness to brush it under the carpet. We need to truly evaluate how we value our children, what are we putting before them?

These are the shepherds of many sheep who rely on them for moral guidance. Are you really telling me that you could listen to Brady for instance and take on board what he is preaching about after what he has been part of for over 30 years?

I don't understand the rest

Quote from: Take Your Points on March 22, 2010, 10:23:53 PM
My point is being lost.  It is that we need to take a balanced but vigilant and intolerant view of the sickness we have in our society which is the abuse of the most vunerable, particularly by those in positions of trust, and the willingness to brush it under the carpet.

Your point is lost because it is airy fairy and irrelevant to the pertinent issues.
If the Vatican and the Irish hierarchy had followed the lead set by the US bishops some 8 years ago there would be no threads like this.  We would all be moving forward.
First you have to realise that the cover up was a crime, when you get past that obstacle
then throw the Pope's letter into the bin. The Vatican is irrelevant here. The US bishops ignored the Vatican and came clean.
I don't know what the problem is in the irish hierarchy.
I now suspect you have a leader in Brady who can't lead the church out of this. He may be sound but he is not a leader. He has no perspective of what has happened and he does not know the way forward.
If so, put him out to pasture.
I suspect the Bishops are not a united bunch, I guess they don't communicate, some of the blackguards amongst them have prevented a united front and have held others back. One of the Bishops needs to take the lead, prepare a statement, gather signatures, force out the rest.  A night of the long croziers.

I have been following this thread from abroad, and as sickening as it is, I dont believe it to be the end of the Catholic Church.

However, as others have pointed out, the CC needs to be proactive in flushing out ALL wrongdoers and colluders.

Fr Kevin Hegarty makes some valid points along similar lines. I think the CC needs to show people everywhere how seriously this will be treated and not wait each time for stories to break before confronting them.

I think Cardinal Daly should resign/be forced to resign, and by doing so the Church can be seen to be 'heralding a new beginning' as Fr Hegarty puts it.

http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9253:time-to-seek-a-new-beginning&catid=28&Itemid=100004 (http://www.mayonews.ie/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=9253:time-to-seek-a-new-beginning&catid=28&Itemid=100004)

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 18, 2010, 12:13:05 PM
He has consistently spoke out on child abuse and had the courage to go on the Late Late Show when the rest of them hid out. Watever his failings, he did that and is to be applauded.

If father brian darcy is to be moved up the ranks then the Catholic Church will plummit further in our country. What we don't need is priests who are out for a tv or journalist career. Our priests should lead us in prayer and give us spiritual guidance. They should not feature heavily in Sunday papers that are filled with lies. We need priests who will stand up and tell the truth of the past and cover NOTHING up, and are in the parishes to support their community through prayer, because to get out of this mess and to stop the church dying away we need to get rid of all priests or bishops who know or were involved in the abuse of children. The priests and the church in Ireland need to go back to the morals that they up held 40 years ago, but this time listen to the people of the community and not have priests put on a peti-stool whereby they can do no wrong. I'd advice anybody who cares about the church and who hasn't already done so to read the full letter from the pope. And anybody who says they won't go back to mass because of what went on, consider this.... The bishops and priests do not make up the church, it is us and it is up to us to continue to make the church stronger, by getting rid of the bad apples and continuing without them!

Quote from: longshanks original on March 23, 2010, 02:38:39 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 18, 2010, 12:13:05 PM
He has consistently spoke out on child abuse and had the courage to go on the Late Late Show when the rest of them hid out. Watever his failings, he did that and is to be applauded.

If father brian darcy is to be moved up the ranks then the Catholic Church will plummit further in our country. What we don't need is priests who are out for a tv or journalist career. Our priests should lead us in prayer and give us spiritual guidance. They should not feature heavily in Sunday papers that are filled with lies. We need priests who will stand up and tell the truth of the past and cover NOTHING up, and are in the parishes to support their community through prayer, because to get out of this mess and to stop the church dying away we need to get rid of all priests or bishops who know or were involved in the abuse of children. The priests and the church in Ireland need to go back to the morals that they up held 40 years ago, but this time listen to the people of the community and not have priests put on a peti-stool whereby they can do no wrong. I'd advice anybody who cares about the church and who hasn't already done so to read the full letter from the pope. And anybody who says they won't go back to mass because of what went on, consider this.... The bishops and priests do not make up the church, it is us and it is up to us to continue to make the church stronger, by getting rid of the bad apples and continuing without them!

What have you got against Fr. Brian Darcy ?. Are you annoyed that he called for Cardinal Brady's resignation and that he had the moral courage to call it as he saw it unlike the rest ?.

Fr Brian Darcy may like his TV junkets, but so what. From what I've seen and heard from him recently and even the Auxilary Bishop of down and Connor Donal McKeown on Newsnight talked more sense that Ratzinger and Brady have through all of this.

would it not be better for the Catholic church to embrace the new mediums of TV and mainstream print media to reach out to their lapsed brethern?

Quote from: Main Street on March 22, 2010, 05:05:56 PM
You are missing the pertinent point by a country mile, Lynchbhoy.

A good organisation in a serious criminal conspiracy of this nature is not excused from those criminal actions by a sign of the times excuse  when it helped create, maintain and sustain that ethos of untouchability.
How can it be said in a way that you can understand?
I suggest you read my linked address of the US bishop in 2002 from a previous post and compare it to the feeble excuses the Pope is still offering today, even compare it to the initial response of the hapless Cardinal Brady of recent days.
Certainly the US bishops in 2002 had no bones about admitting that they partook in a criminal conspiracy. I read no weighing up of good actions versus immoral actions, no feeble excuses, no excuses full stop.

Search deeper for moral strength my son ;D

Sorry MS, I obv just dont see what your point is
or are you saying that this was a criminal conspiricy ?
The 'conspiricy' (and criminal at that) is limited to a small number.
These people who actively hid and allowed paedos to continue deserve as big a sentence as the sex offenders
however, this is limited to a few in the Irish top hierarchy  (maybe all top brass?)

I am not saying that this is all down to modern society - thats just something I commented on that I agree with that came up during the other conversations.

the US bishop knew the problem was on his doorstep and the problems were local.
The pope and the vatican I would expect (and guess which is all most of us can do) given the way the Irish clergy hierarchy operated - that they said feck all to the vatican, to cover up from above for their own ineptitude and non handling of the issues  over the years.

Quote from: orangeman on March 23, 2010, 08:58:03 AM

Quote from: longshanks original on March 23, 2010, 02:38:39 AM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 18, 2010, 12:13:05 PM
He has consistently spoke out on child abuse and had the courage to go on the Late Late Show when the rest of them hid out. Watever his failings, he did that and is to be applauded.

If father brian darcy is to be moved up the ranks then the Catholic Church will plummit further in our country. What we don't need is priests who are out for a tv or journalist career. Our priests should lead us in prayer and give us spiritual guidance. They should not feature heavily in Sunday papers that are filled with lies. We need priests who will stand up and tell the truth of the past and cover NOTHING up, and are in the parishes to support their community through prayer, because to get out of this mess and to stop the church dying away we need to get rid of all priests or bishops who know or were involved in the abuse of children. The priests and the church in Ireland need to go back to the morals that they up held 40 years ago, but this time listen to the people of the community and not have priests put on a peti-stool whereby they can do no wrong. I'd advice anybody who cares about the church and who hasn't already done so to read the full letter from the pope. And anybody who says they won't go back to mass because of what went on, consider this.... The bishops and priests do not make up the church, it is us and it is up to us to continue to make the church stronger, by getting rid of the bad apples and continuing without them!

What have you got against Fr. Brian Darcy ?. Are you annoyed that he called for Cardinal Brady's resignation and that he had the moral courage to call it as he saw it unlike the rest ?.

No not at all, I do think that Cardinal Brady should resign, he can not lead the church in Ireland with this hanging over him, as I said anybody who had anything to do with the cover up must go. Though I do think that he is been made a bit of a scape goat. You have to remember that at that time everyone stayed hush about child abuse claims, priests, bishops, gardia and even the parishoners! That's why if the church is to reform in Ireland the parish priests must listen to the people in thier parishes and not dictate the decisions. Equally the priests need help at the minute, they are all been looked at as guilty by association. In regards to fr brian darcy I have no problems with him speeking out, but I just cannot accept a priest who writes for the Sunday world, the paper is based on lies!! The media has a serious problem with the catholic church, I know at the minute there are stories of child abuse and there right to report these, but think when's the last good news story printed or reported by the media on the church? I think Catholics in Ireland need to go back to their faith and understand the catholic teachings, at the same time embracing modern ways, but we don't need to take today's modern morals. (not taking the moral high ground, I include myself in this)

Longshanks.....no body exists that will do or demand the changes that you want to see...so how do you think practicing catholics have any level of control over what way the RC church is run down the line? How do you think they will get their say?

And you speak about the media having a problem with the RC church. Could you tell me the stories that you think they should be reporting?

Quote from: theskull1 on March 23, 2010, 10:51:30 AM

And you speak about the media having a problem with the RC church. Could you tell me the stories that you think they should be reporting?

There was this Fr Mulvey lad in Strabane who built the chapel, community centre and a community care centre all with his own money, if that doesn't warrant at least a 3 minute slot on UTV live then I don't know what will.

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 23, 2010, 09:30:56 AM

Sorry MS, I obv just dont see what your point is
or are you saying that this was a criminal conspiricy ?
The 'conspiricy' (and criminal at that) is limited to a small number.
These people who actively hid and allowed paedos to continue deserve as big a sentence as the sex offenders
however, this is limited to a few in the Irish top hierarchy  (maybe all top brass?)

The abusers were a small  minority (though still hugely significant number)  but the Church as an institution covered it up.
That makes the Church as an institution, guilty of the crime of complicity and omission.
The vatican knew what was happening re sex abuse cases by priests, the vatican knew the method to deal with it was to move the priest on, the Vatican knew these priests re-offended.
That is a criminal conspiracy.

Quotethe US bishop knew the problem was on his doorstep and the problems were local.
The pope and the vatican I would expect (and guess which is all most of us can do) given the way the Irish clergy hierarchy operated - that they said feck all to the vatican, to cover up from above for their own ineptitude and non handling of the issues  over the years.

The failed method to handle the abuse cases was set in canon law. That method was part of Vatican doctrine and the approved method to use. In the US they decided to deal with it their own way some 10 years ago contrary to the Vatican investigation into the sex abuse  led by Cardinal Ratzinger.
From the bottom of the ladder, priests and some bishops,  seeing the disappearing congregation, hearing the anger of the remaining faithful and accepting the criminal responsibility of the church as an institution, acted with decisiveness. It was the priests who got rid of Cardinal Law and the Bishops who commisioned the reports.
From the US bishops opening address
'We are the ones, whether through ignorance or lack of vigilance, or – God forbid – with knowledge, who allowed priest abusers to remain in ministry and reassigned them to communities where they continued to abuse.
We are the ones who chose not to report the criminal actions of priests to the authorities, because the law did not require this.
We are the ones who worried more about the possibility of scandal than in bringing about the kind of openness that helps prevent abuse.
And we are the ones who, at times, responded to victims and their families as adversaries and not as suffering members of the Church.'

What response have you had from the Irish hierarchy as a unit?
They have all the appearance of a bedraggled leaderless bunch still shuffling concepts of canon law and 'misplaced good intentions' around.

Quote from: johnneycool on March 23, 2010, 11:21:39 AM

Quote from: theskull1 on March 23, 2010, 10:51:30 AM

And you speak about the media having a problem with the RC church. Could you tell me the stories that you think they should be reporting?

There was this Fr Mulvey lad in Strabane who built the chapel, community centre and a community care centre all with his own money, if that doesn't warrant at least a 3 minute slot on UTV live then I don't know what will.

Please tell me where anyone besides yourself has said that Fr Mulvey built anything with his own money, he instigated and facilitated the building of said buildings, nothing more nothing less, he was also instrumental in the building of the boys secondary school.

Again, if people cannot keep this thread on topic then I'll just lock it.
There are threads on this board devoted to Clerical Abuse, please post on them.

Have we actually defined what a Good Priest is? A very important question that needs to be reexamined.

If he performs his weekly chores with dedication and a smile to all who pass him yet in the back of his mind he knowingly stayed silent and left it to others ubove his station (who never did) to blow the whistle on clerical child abuse thereby exposing hundreds more who otherwise would have been saved from this depravity, would you still consider him a good pastural leader and hang on his teachings to the flock?

So alot of these boys may very well be grand fellas on many levels, but can they really be trusted with something as important as shaping the morals of those who look to the church for guidance on such matters?

A good priest should be dedicated at a local level and also provide a voice to the wider comminuty as he communicates up the way to his bosses. Too many are just cowling dogs who are more interested in kissing the bishops ring  :-* than speaking out at wrong doing from within their ranks. Their subservience to the hierarchy has played a very big part in this cover up being maintained. It's quite amazing that none of them blew the whistle on all the goings on.

Quote from: theskull1 on March 23, 2010, 01:47:50 PM
Have we actually defined what a Good Priest is? A very important question that needs to be reexamined.

If he performs his weekly chores with dedication and a smile to all who pass him yet in the back of his mind he knowingly stayed silent and left it to others ubove his station (who never did) to blow the whistle on clerical child abuse thereby exposing hundreds more who otherwise would have been saved from this depravity, would you still consider him a good pastural leader and hang on his teachings to the flock?

So alot of these boys may very well be grand fellas on many levels, but can they really be trusted with something as important as shaping the morals of those who look to the church for guidance on such matters?

A good priest should be dedicated at a local level and also provide a voice to the wider comminuty as he communicates up the way to his bosses. Too many are just cowling dogs who are more interested in kissing the bishops ring  :-* than speaking out at wrong doing from within their ranks. Their subservience to the hierarchy has played a very big part in this cover up being maintained. It's quite amazing that none of them blew the whistle on all the goings on.

I am told that our local priest decided to hand out photocopies of the Popes letter at mass on Sunday and refused to speak about it in his sermon. Not sure if that makes him good or bad. Maybe he tought the popes letter was a load of dung and not worth reading or maybe he thinks this whole child abuse thing is below him. I intend to find out!

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 23, 2010, 12:54:52 PM
Again, if people cannot keep this thread on topic then I'll just lock it.
There are threads on this board devoted to Clerical Abuse, please post on them.

Lock it then... bullshit thread anyway...

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 23, 2010, 03:32:18 PM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 23, 2010, 12:54:52 PM
Again, if people cannot keep this thread on topic then I'll just lock it.
There are threads on this board devoted to Clerical Abuse, please post on them.

Lock it then... bullshit thread anyway...

For a bullshit thread, you posted enough on it.

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 23, 2010, 04:09:19 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 23, 2010, 03:32:18 PM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 23, 2010, 12:54:52 PM
Again, if people cannot keep this thread on topic then I'll just lock it.
There are threads on this board devoted to Clerical Abuse, please post on them.

Lock it then... bullshit thread anyway...

For a bullshit thread, you posted enough on it.

Need to fight the bullshit at every opportunity. 
Will you be doing threads on the good electricians, solicitors, teachers?... it was a cynical attempt to deflect from the child abuse cover-ups   

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 23, 2010, 04:27:03 PM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 23, 2010, 04:09:19 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 23, 2010, 03:32:18 PM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 23, 2010, 12:54:52 PM
Again, if people cannot keep this thread on topic then I'll just lock it.
There are threads on this board devoted to Clerical Abuse, please post on them.

Lock it then... bullshit thread anyway...

For a bullshit thread, you posted enough on it.

Need to fight the bullshit at every opportunity. 
Will you be doing threads on the good electricians, solicitors, teachers?... it was a cynical attempt to deflect from the child abuse cover-ups   

Actually there was nothing cynical about this thread being set up, I am just giving people the opportunity to give their good experiences of Priests, there are other threads here giving peoples other views on the clergy.
Is it cynical because you don't agree with it, or would you just rather people look only at the negatives?

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 23, 2010, 06:25:25 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 23, 2010, 04:27:03 PM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 23, 2010, 04:09:19 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 23, 2010, 03:32:18 PM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 23, 2010, 12:54:52 PM
Again, if people cannot keep this thread on topic then I'll just lock it.
There are threads on this board devoted to Clerical Abuse, please post on them.

Lock it then... bullshit thread anyway...

For a bullshit thread, you posted enough on it.

Need to fight the bullshit at every opportunity. 
Will you be doing threads on the good electricians, solicitors, teachers?... it was a cynical attempt to deflect from the child abuse cover-ups   

Actually there was nothing cynical about this thread being set up, I am just giving people the opportunity to give their good experiences of Priests, there are other threads here giving peoples other views on the clergy.
Is it cynical because you don't agree with it, or would you just rather people look only at the negatives?

So why did you not start this thread a few weeks ago rather than in the week that was all the abuse controversy?  when there was all the talk of police covering up for  Robert Hamill's killers you didn't do a good cop thread... or a good politican thread when the spotlight was on them for financial  dodgy dealings. But when the clergy are in the spotlight you started this as some sort of deflection from the accusations against them... 'you can fool some of the people etc... '

GDA, while I appreciated the reason you posted the thread, I think it's time you locked it or deleted it.  Too many people with axes to grind have hijiacked it and the thread has lost its way

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 23, 2010, 06:42:15 PM
GDA, while I appreciated the reason you posted the thread, I think it's time you locked it or deleted it.  Too many people with axes to grind have hijiacked it and the thread has lost its way

Ummm - he was hammered on St Patricks night?

Quote from: Puckoon on March 23, 2010, 07:04:25 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 23, 2010, 06:42:15 PM
GDA, while I appreciated the reason you posted the thread, I think it's time you locked it or deleted it.  Too many people with axes to grind have hijiacked it and the thread has lost its way

Ummm - he was hammered on St Patricks night?

...or locked
Sort of irony in threatening to delete the Catholic priest thread or stop it when you hear what you don't want to hear. Sounds familiar  :o

puck, what's wrong with him wanting to hear good things about priests?  Do you not think there has been enough slabbering about paedophiles in the church?  Do you not think he is perfectly entitled to ask people to take their negative shite elsewhere?  God knows, there are enough threads on here lambasting the church and clergy

Or is it the case that a few people who hate the catholic church want to keep raising the same issues over and over again, even when asked not to in one single thread?

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 23, 2010, 11:27:59 PM
puck, what's wrong with him wanting to hear good things about priests?  Do you not think there has been enough slabbering about paedophiles in the church?  Do you not think he is perfectly entitled to ask people to take their negative shite elsewhere?  God knows, there are enough threads on here lambasting the church and clergy

Or is it the case that a few people who hate the catholic church want to keep raising the same issues over and over again, even when asked not to in one single thread?

thats pretty much it - or people that want to continue to put forward their own'conspiricy theories' that the vatican knew all that was going on (must be through ESP or something).

While a lot of 'bad' (and in the sex offenses - criminal ) things have been done by priests and no marks out of ten for the Catholic church in their lack of action in the past number of years over this - it still stands that the Catholic church in Ireland has help raise people, society and thus education and industry from the bogs and gutters to enable its people to become leading edge and the country likewise and punch well above its weight. While the excesses of the Celtic tiger are gone, the legacy now is wealth and industry and a life beyond what could ever have been imagined by people 25 years ago.
The role of the Catholic church and priests in that is paramount.

I expect the role now of the catholic church to subside, as they are no longer as useful as they once were and are effectively discarded. But their legacy is all around us.

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 23, 2010, 06:25:25 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 23, 2010, 04:27:03 PM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 23, 2010, 04:09:19 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 23, 2010, 03:32:18 PM

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 23, 2010, 12:54:52 PM
Again, if people cannot keep this thread on topic then I'll just lock it.
There are threads on this board devoted to Clerical Abuse, please post on them.

Lock it then... bullshit thread anyway...

For a bullshit thread, you posted enough on it.

Need to fight the bullshit at every opportunity. 
Will you be doing threads on the good electricians, solicitors, teachers?... it was a cynical attempt to deflect from the child abuse cover-ups   

Actually there was nothing cynical about this thread being set up, I am just giving people the opportunity to give their good experiences of Priests, there are other threads here giving peoples other views on the clergy.
Is it cynical because you don't agree with it, or would you just rather people look only at the negatives?

Apart from that Mrs Kennedy, how did you enjoy your visit to Dallas?  ::)

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 23, 2010, 07:22:43 PM

Quote from: Puckoon on March 23, 2010, 07:04:25 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 23, 2010, 06:42:15 PM
GDA, while I appreciated the reason you posted the thread, I think it's time you locked it or deleted it.  Too many people with axes to grind have hijiacked it and the thread has lost its way

Ummm - he was hammered on St Patricks night?

...or locked
Sort of irony in threatening to delete the Catholic priest thread or stop it when you hear what you don't want to hear. Sounds familiar  :o

It looks to me that he's locking it as people are going of thread. and he's got a point. There are a couple of threads dealing with the abuse. This was a thread about individual priests who have done things that have helped the community. If he went on to one of the other abuse threads and started talking about individual priests doing good things he'd be hammered for whataboutery. This is no different.
If you have no good points to make about priests then fair enough, if you want to talk about the abuse go to the right thread.

A good priest is one who can say with clarity, that the institutionalised cover up allowing sex abusers to continue their abuse was a crime.

It would appear that the muddled guidance on this issue by the ultra stubborn hierarchy in Ireland is still confusing some members of the church.

Getting closer MS well done. Any Particular priest you'd like to mention?

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/world-news/bishop-resigns-over-child-sex-abuse-2109763.html

Pope Benedict has accepted the resignation of a senior Irish bishop who stood down over his mishandling of clerical child sex abuse allegations, it was confirmed.

Scandal-hit former bishop of Cloyne John Magee, a one-time Vatican aide, quit the day-to-day running of parishes across rural Cork in March last year.

The cleric, from Newry, Co Down, faced scathing criticism after the church's own watchdog found he took minimal action on accusations against two of his priests and branded his child protection inadequate and dangerous.

The Catholic Church confirmed the Pope accepted his resignation at an announcement in the Vatican.

Bishop Magee, who served as private secretary to three different popes, apologised when the watchdog's report was first published on the internet the week before Christmas 2008 but refused to resign.

His daily duties were taken over by Dermot Clifford, Archbishop of neighbouring Cashel and Emly, last year.

The Archbishop said: "I would like to thank Bishop John Magee for the cooperation he has given me since my appointment as apostolic administrator to the Diocese of Cloyne.

"I wish him all God's blessings in his retirement. I ask for the continued prayers and support of the lay faithful, priests and religious of the Diocese of Cloyne for all those who have suffered abuse."

Came across this group on facebook in support of Cardinal Brady.

"Cardinal Brady Is A Good Man". 
http://www.facebook.com/terry.hoey#!/pages/Cardinal-Brady-is-a-good-man/10150142702460462?ref=mf

Think ill start up a page ''Cardinal Brady is a good man........who has no problem covering up the rape of kids as long as its not against Canon Law, and he was just doing his job at the time, and just following orders, but a good man all the same''

That didn't last long.

Quote from: supersarsfields on March 24, 2010, 11:03:53 AM
Getting closer MS well done. Any Particular priest you'd like to mention?

And what relevance has a head count of good priests or nuns (no one ever mentions the nuns) got?
Is a good priest or nun someone who does their best or someone who has a special skill for the grandiose schemes.
I can't measure the quality of a selfless social service by the criteria of a priest's bricklaying skills versus a Nun who has no bricklaying skills but gives her time to serve the homeless.

The good priests and nuns need support from the hierarchy
The minimum standard of a response to the institutional cover up has been given by the US bishops in 2002.
Why are the Irish hierarchy pathologically incapable of doing the same? The good priests and nuns deserve that support.

And as sure as that is the elephant in the room, we have people here waffling on about the good priest.

Quote from: Main Street on March 24, 2010, 02:13:59 PM

Quote from: supersarsfields on March 24, 2010, 11:03:53 AM
Getting closer MS well done. Any Particular priest you'd like to mention?

And what relevance has a head count of good priests or nuns (no one ever mentions the nuns) got?
Is a good priest or nun someone who does their best or someone who has a special skill for the grandiose schemes.
I can't measure the quality of a selfless social service by the criteria of a priest's bricklaying skills versus a Nun who has no bricklaying skills but gives her time to serve the homeless.

The good priests and nuns need support from the hierarchy
The minimum standard of a response to the institutional cover up has been given by the US bishops in 2002.
Why are the Irish hierarchy pathologically incapable of doing the same? The good priests and nuns deserve that support.

And as sure as that is the elephant in the room, we have people here waffling on about the good priest.

the elephant in the room is the 'conspiricy theory' that people seem to want to belive exists.

a few at the top and the middle of the Irish Catholic church are guilty,but you'd swear the whole Catholic church in Ireland , as well as globally - all knew what was going on and all helped cover it up - when in reality a priest in the next parish wouldnt have known about feck all like that !

the same measurements people are using to differentiate between good and bad priests can be as easily applied to (though this time without guesswork and with evidence of the social benefits delivered) the good work priests, nuns, christian brothers, Catholic church etc have brough to this country.
that kind of sliding scale is being used against all these (with no evidence against 'innocent' priests) so can be as applicable here - bricklayers are great and build the things, but its the priests etc that make the plans and drive the projects and help get the funding etc - thought thats fairly obvious....
dont know if they helped plan any of these zoos for the elephants you are talking about !

There was a priest on Ulster radio today, Fr John Burns who was very upset about the whole thing. He came across as very genuine and sincere. He called for Brady to go...  he'll have to be silenced.

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 03:22:04 PM
There was a priest on Ulster radio today, Fr John Burns who was very upset about the whole thing. He came across as very genuine and sincere. He called for Brady to go...  he'll have to be silenced.

Why is that?  I thought you would be commending him, fair play to him I say.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 24, 2010, 03:27:16 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 03:22:04 PM
There was a priest on Ulster radio today, Fr John Burns who was very upset about the whole thing. He came across as very genuine and sincere. He called for Brady to go...  he'll have to be silenced.

Why is that?  I thought you would be commending him, fair play to him I say.

Lowest form of wit ... sarcasm. Yeah-he came across very well and truthful. I just reckon some church hierarchy and posters hear would want him silenced for speaking out about Brady.   

Quote from: Main Street on March 24, 2010, 02:13:59 PM

Quote from: supersarsfields on March 24, 2010, 11:03:53 AM
Getting closer MS well done. Any Particular priest you'd like to mention?

And what relevance has a head count of good priests or nuns (no one ever mentions the nuns) got?
Is a good priest or nun someone who does their best or someone who has a special skill for the grandiose schemes.
I can't measure the quality of a selfless social service by the criteria of a priest's bricklaying skills versus a Nun who has no bricklaying skills but gives her time to serve the homeless.

The good priests and nuns need support from the hierarchy
The minimum standard of a response to the institutional cover up has been given by the US bishops in 2002.
Why are the Irish hierarchy pathologically incapable of doing the same? The good priests and nuns deserve that support.

And as sure as that is the elephant in the room, we have people here waffling on about the good priest.

I'm not sure what your talking about now. Imagine, people on a thread about good priests, mentioning good priests. Crazy!!

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 03:47:04 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 24, 2010, 03:27:16 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 03:22:04 PM
There was a priest on Ulster radio today, Fr John Burns who was very upset about the whole thing. He came across as very genuine and sincere. He called for Brady to go...  he'll have to be silenced.

Why is that?  I thought you would be commending him, fair play to him I say.

Lowest form of wit ... sarcasm. Yeah-he came across very well and truthful. I just reckon some church hierarchy and posters hear would want him silenced for speaking out about Brady.   

I have not seen any poster on here ask for anyone - Priest or lay church member - to be silenced for speaking out, if they have I missed it and I apologise.
You have tried enough sarcasm on this thread yourself so it's a little rich of you to pull me for it also.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 24, 2010, 03:53:50 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 03:47:04 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 24, 2010, 03:27:16 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 03:22:04 PM
There was a priest on Ulster radio today, Fr John Burns who was very upset about the whole thing. He came across as very genuine and sincere. He called for Brady to go...  he'll have to be silenced.

Why is that?  I thought you would be commending him, fair play to him I say.

Lowest form of wit ... sarcasm. Yeah-he came across very well and truthful. I just reckon some church hierarchy and posters hear would want him silenced for speaking out about Brady.   

I have not seen any poster on here ask for anyone - Priest or lay church member - to be silenced for speaking out, if they have I missed it and I apologise.
You have tried enough sarcasm on this thread yourself so it's a little rich of you to pull me for it also.

I was referring to myself being sarcastic in that post  ::).  Tell me who were the other priests called for Brady to go...

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 03:57:52 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 24, 2010, 03:53:50 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 03:47:04 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 24, 2010, 03:27:16 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 03:22:04 PM
There was a priest on Ulster radio today, Fr John Burns who was very upset about the whole thing. He came across as very genuine and sincere. He called for Brady to go...  he'll have to be silenced.

Why is that?  I thought you would be commending him, fair play to him I say.

Lowest form of wit ... sarcasm. Yeah-he came across very well and truthful. I just reckon some church hierarchy and posters hear would want him silenced for speaking out about Brady.   

I have not seen any poster on here ask for anyone - Priest or lay church member - to be silenced for speaking out, if they have I missed it and I apologise.
You have tried enough sarcasm on this thread yourself so it's a little rich of you to pull me for it also.

I was referring to myself being sarcastic in that post  ::).  Tell me who were the other priests called for Brady to go...

WTF are you on about now?  Where did I suggest this  ::)

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 24, 2010, 04:20:50 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 03:57:52 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 24, 2010, 03:53:50 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 03:47:04 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 24, 2010, 03:27:16 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 03:22:04 PM
There was a priest on Ulster radio today, Fr John Burns who was very upset about the whole thing. He came across as very genuine and sincere. He called for Brady to go...  he'll have to be silenced.

Why is that?  I thought you would be commending him, fair play to him I say.

Lowest form of wit ... sarcasm. Yeah-he came across very well and truthful. I just reckon some church hierarchy and posters hear would want him silenced for speaking out about Brady.   

I have not seen any poster on here ask for anyone - Priest or lay church member - to be silenced for speaking out, if they have I missed it and I apologise.
You have tried enough sarcasm on this thread yourself so it's a little rich of you to pull me for it also.

I was referring to myself being sarcastic in that post  ::).  Tell me who were the other priests called for Brady to go...

WTF are you on about now?  Where did I suggest this  ::)

Holy God.. I suggested he'd be silenced for calling for Brady to quit...   ::)

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 04:33:08 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 24, 2010, 04:20:50 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 03:57:52 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 24, 2010, 03:53:50 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 03:47:04 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 24, 2010, 03:27:16 PM

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 03:22:04 PM
There was a priest on Ulster radio today, Fr John Burns who was very upset about the whole thing. He came across as very genuine and sincere. He called for Brady to go...  he'll have to be silenced.

Why is that?  I thought you would be commending him, fair play to him I say.

Lowest form of wit ... sarcasm. Yeah-he came across very well and truthful. I just reckon some church hierarchy and posters hear would want him silenced for speaking out about Brady.   

I have not seen any poster on here ask for anyone - Priest or lay church member - to be silenced for speaking out, if they have I missed it and I apologise.
You have tried enough sarcasm on this thread yourself so it's a little rich of you to pull me for it also.

I was referring to myself being sarcastic in that post  ::).  Tell me who were the other priests called for Brady to go...

WTF are you on about now?  Where did I suggest this  ::)

Holy God.. I suggested he'd be silenced for calling for Brady to quit...   ::)

You are full of steaming keek but at least you are consistent, I will add a few of these also for dramatic effect  ::) ::) ::)

 Oh! it's time to get personal and get away from the debate  ::) ::) ::) ::)   

What debate you eejit??  :D

Quote from: Puckoon on March 23, 2010, 07:04:25 PM

Quote from: ardmhachaabu on March 23, 2010, 06:42:15 PM
GDA, while I appreciated the reason you posted the thread, I think it's time you locked it or deleted it.  Too many people with axes to grind have hijiacked it and the thread has lost its way

Ummm - he was hammered on St Patricks night?

Sorry were you in my house on St Patricks Day?
No. Didn't think so.
Some of us had work to go to early on Thursday morning, but saying someone was drunk  seems to be the way certain posters on certain threads respond to posts they disagree with or don't like

Brought to the cinema for the first time on our annual altar boy trip by our local priest. Went to McDonalds after (also for first time). In fairness to Fr L...... he fought hard with the cinema mgr to get us all in to see the new James Bond flick even though we were too young.

He was a sound man.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 24, 2010, 05:19:53 PM
What debate you eejit??  :D

I'll speak slowly for you...   I - suggested - that - Fr - Burn - will - be - silenced - for - calling - on - Brady - to - quit - and - you - said - no-one - has - been - silenced - for -  doing - that - up - to - now ...  Are-you - still - with - me?   SO!... I - then - asked - which - priest - before - now - had - called - on - Brady - to - quit... Ok? and - then - you - couldnt - think - of - one - so - you - started - calling - me - names...   APART - FROM - FR - BURN - NAME - A  - PRIEST -  HAS - CALLED - ON - SEAN - BRADY - TO - QUIT ?  :o

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 05:33:10 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 24, 2010, 05:19:53 PM
What debate you eejit??  :D

I'll speak slowly for you...   I - suggested - that - Fr - Burn - will - be - silenced - for - calling - on - Brady - to - quit - and - you - said - no-one - has - been - silenced - for -  doing - that - up - to - now ...  Are-you - still - with - me?   SO!... I - then - asked - which - priest - before - now - had - called - on - Brady - to - quit... Ok? and - then - you - couldnt - think - of - one - so - you - started - calling - me - names...   APART - FROM - FR - BURN - NAME - A  - PRIEST -  HAS - CALLED - ON - SEAN - BRADY - TO - QUIT ?  :o

:D you idiot

Quote from: lynchbhoy on March 24, 2010, 02:22:16 PM

Quote from: Main Street on March 24, 2010, 02:13:59 PM

Quote from: supersarsfields on March 24, 2010, 11:03:53 AM
Getting closer MS well done. Any Particular priest you'd like to mention?

And what relevance has a head count of good priests or nuns (no one ever mentions the nuns) got?
Is a good priest or nun someone who does their best or someone who has a special skill for the grandiose schemes.
I can't measure the quality of a selfless social service by the criteria of a priest's bricklaying skills versus a Nun who has no bricklaying skills but gives her time to serve the homeless.

The good priests and nuns need support from the hierarchy
The minimum standard of a response to the institutional cover up has been given by the US bishops in 2002.
Why are the Irish hierarchy pathologically incapable of doing the same? The good priests and nuns deserve that support.

And as sure as that is the elephant in the room, we have people here waffling on about the good priest.

the elephant in the room is the 'conspiricy theory' that people seem to want to belive exists.

a few at the top and the middle of the Irish Catholic church are guilty,but you'd swear the whole Catholic church in Ireland , as well as globally - all knew what was going on and all helped cover it up - when in reality a priest in the next parish wouldnt have known about feck all like that !

the same measurements people are using to differentiate between good and bad priests can be as easily applied to (though this time without guesswork and with evidence of the social benefits delivered) the good work priests, nuns, christian brothers, Catholic church etc have brough to this country.
that kind of sliding scale is being used against all these (with no evidence against 'innocent' priests) so can be as applicable here - bricklayers are great and build the things, but its the priests etc that make the plans and drive the projects and help get the funding etc - thought thats fairly obvious....
dont know if they helped plan any of these zoos for the elephants you are talking about !

Yes, unfortunately for the good uns,  the whole Church in Ireland takes the rap for the institutionalised cover up.
Bishops, Cardinals  5k documents sealed in a safe. Read the report.

Until the Church Hierarchy in Ireland, as an institution, acts and accepts responsibility in the same way like the Church in the USA did, the whole institution will be tainted with the criminal stain of the cover up

I suggest we keep a list of priests who are calling on Brady to resign.
Has anyone got a spare postage stamp to write these names down on?

PS Fr. Burns will probably be labelled as a "Self Hating Priest"

Quote from: give her dixie on March 24, 2010, 05:38:26 PM
I suggest we keep a list of priests who are calling on Brady to resign.
Has anyone got a spare postage stamp to write these names down on?

PS Fr. Burns will probably be labelled as a "Self Hating Priest"

That you Dixie... guess that makes you an idiot as well  ;)

No Fox, you expressly said posters on hear (sic) would want him silenced and I said I had seen zero evidence of that (from posters) and if there was I would apologise. Simple(ton) as that.  So your pathetic attempt to twist the thread to suit your own agenda is  just well pathetic.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 24, 2010, 05:52:19 PM
No Fox, you expressly said posters on hear (sic) would want him silenced and I said I had seen zero evidence of that (from posters) and if there was I would apologise. Simple(ton) as that.  So your pathetic attempt to twist the thread to suit your own agenda is  just well pathetic.

Bullshit Mr Hangman... is threatening to lock or delete the thread, (because someone didn't like what was being said)  not a way to silence posters on it?... now read on   

Quote from: Gaoth Dobhair Abu on March 23, 2010, 12:54:52 PM
Again, if people cannot keep this thread on topic then I'll just lock it.
There are threads on this board devoted to Clerical Abuse, please post on them.

Apology Doogie?...  :-* 

I think the vast majority of the clergy are good people, nuns and all.

Let's hear more for the nuns.

Doogie, you are wasting your time

 ::)

Quote from: longrunsthefox on March 24, 2010, 06:02:31 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on March 24, 2010, 05:52:19 PM
No Fox, you expressly said posters on hear (sic) would want him silenced and I said I had seen zero evidence of that (from posters) and if there was I would apologise. Simple(ton) as that.  So your pathetic attempt to twist the thread to suit your own agenda is  just well pathetic.

Bullshit Mr Hangman... is threatening to lock or delete the thread, (because someone didn't like what was being said)  not a way to silence posters on it?... now read on

The thread is being dragged off topic at every available opportunity by you and a couple of other posters, hence my mentioning locking it, as said before why not post your views on the RELEVANT thread!

As I said this thread was a cynical attempt to distract from the abuse controversies and of course there are good priests... but life ain't that black and white.
Apart from that Mrs Lincoln how did you enjoy the play?   

That's your view. There seems to be quite a few other posters who disagree.

My favourite priest growing up was Father Eugene Hassan. I have hazy recollections of his sermon the week after the ballygawley line bombing.

Boystown is an excellent old film with Spenser Tracey and Mickey Rooney about Fr Flanagan... a saint.

Fr. Edward Flanagan
OMAHA, Neb. (March 1, 2010) –The Rev. Edward Flanagan founded Boys Town nearly 90 years ago, and today his mission lives on. Now those who have studied him believe Father Flanagan should be a saint in the Roman Catholic Church.Flanagan founded the Orphanage for Boys in 1917. Since then, his organization has touched the lives of thousands of children. It's a legacy that some believe makes Omaha's best-known priest worthy of sainthood."We really believe that if this is God's will, this is going to happen," said Steve Wolf of the Father Flanagan League, an Omaha group dedicated to spreading its devotion to the founder of Boys Town and providing information to the Roman Catholic Church.
Fr. Flanagan warned of abuse in Irish Catholic institutions back in the 1940s.
While touring the Irish schools he was appalled and said so. "You are the people who permit your children and the children of your communities to go into these institutions of punishment. You can do something about it." He called Ireland's penal institutions "a disgrace to the nation," and later said "I do not believe that a child can be reformed by lock and key and bars, or that fear can ever develop a child's character."
However, his words fell on stony ground. He wasn't simply ignored. He was taken to pieces by the Irish establishment.

Here's one of the good ones - Fr Boland in Strabane.  He even has a Facebook appreciation page.



From BBC NI online:

A priest accused of child abuse in Derry is to be moved out of the parochial house in Strabane.

Parish priest Fr Declan Boland said he had not been made aware of the extent of the allegations against Fr John McCullough when he moved in.

Fr McCullough paid £12,000 to a woman who claimed she was abused by him, but he has no convictions and made no admission of liability.

Fr Boland said he feels compromised, and has spoken to the Bishop.

"The bottom line is that given the revelations that have occurred it is no longer appropriate, nor would it be possible for him to live in the parochial house.

"I feel compromised, I feel I have been put into a corner and asked to deal with a situation I should have had nothing to do with because this is a diocesan responsibility, not mine.

"I find myself handling a situation I shouldn't have had to handle," he said.

Quote from: Rois on March 25, 2010, 09:10:42 AM
Here's one of the good ones - Fr Boland in Strabane.  He even has a Facebook appreciation page.



From BBC NI online:

A priest accused of child abuse in Derry is to be moved out of the parochial house in Strabane.

Parish priest Fr Declan Boland said he had not been made aware of the extent of the allegations against Fr John McCullough when he moved in.

Fr McCullough paid £12,000 to a woman who claimed she was abused by him, but he has no convictions and made no admission of liability.

Fr Boland said he feels compromised, and has spoken to the Bishop.

"The bottom line is that given the revelations that have occurred it is no longer appropriate, nor would it be possible for him to live in the parochial house.

"I feel compromised, I feel I have been put into a corner and asked to deal with a situation I should have had nothing to do with because this is a diocesan responsibility, not mine.

"I find myself handling a situation I shouldn't have had to handle," he said.

I wonder does this priest feel let down by the institution/church for lumping on his doorstep a priest with a seedy past?
If the 'institution' doesn't even bother to tell the local PP that his new colleague has a misdemeanour of a sexual nature hanging over him what hope would the local school teachers or parishioners have of knowing before letting them lose with their children??