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a great irish american who did so much for both countries. a book of condolences will be open at the american embassy tomorrow for anyone who wants to sign it. .  .

Truly we are poorer for having lost him. A great man.

A fine man - just the one blemish.

QuoteI swam to the shore, but didnt feel like phoning the police or telling the parents that their daughter ha drowned until the next morning

1) Can anyone understand why he did that?
2) Would anyone else get away with it?

done his bit for the irish both here and in the states, maybe only for the car crash accident he might have went on to be president

Done a lot for Ireland.

R.I.P

i would say orior he has regretted not doing the right think that night

RIP Ted Kennedy. An American who never forgotten his Irish roots.

RIP

Quote from: gerry on August 26, 2009, 09:45:19 PM
i would say orior he has regretted not doing the right think that night

He did say that there was hardly a day went by that he didn't think about it and regret it. He would have been president but for that incident.

But he didn't let this deter him. He got on with it and went about doing a lot of good for those in the USA and further afield. He had a special place in his heart for us.


RIP

RIP. Done his bit in the Irish Peace process among alot of other things.

If he ever got to be President he would have been one for the ages. But it was never on. The Chappaquiddick thing destroyed any chance he had. But even if he beat Jimmy Carter for the Democratic nomination I dont think he would have defeated Regan [first or second time]. No Demo would have stood a chance after Carter and the Iranian crisis. After Regans first term he was a shoe in for a second [ he even would have got a third if it were possible].

Regan was regarded as a bit of a joke/ boogie man by some Irish liberals [ remember Christy Moore s HEY RONNIE REGAN], but in the US he is revered as one of their great Presidents. Also not all Irish-Americans vote Dem. Far from it.

He may have been a great politician and tried to do his best for the poor and so on, but I  cannot hold him in high regard because of Mary Jo Kepechne. Its not like he was a kid in his late teens or early 20s. Everyone makes mistakes, but you have to stand up and take responsibility for your actions. He acted appallingly in the aftermath and never paid the price that any normal, unconnected person would have.

Quote from: moysider on August 26, 2009, 11:58:06 PM

Regan was regarded as a bit of a joke/ boogie man by some Irish liberals [ remember Christy Moore s HEY RONNIE REGAN], but in the US he is revered as one of their great Presidents. Also not all Irish-Americans vote Dem. Far from it.

He came in at no. 6 in a poll and book organized a few years back by some journalists from the Wall Street Journal, beaten only by Washington, Lincoln, FDR, Jefferson and Teddy Roosevelt. Obviously the WSJ is very in favour of the types of economic policies championed by Reagan, and opinions may change based on the events of the past 12 months, but his case for greatness has certainly been pushed hard by the conservative movement in the US over the past few years e.g. almost every candidate for the Republican nomination in 2008 was invoking the legacy of Ronald Reagan while doing everything they could to avoid any association with GW Bush!

Aye, sure Ted was a friend of the Irish. Let's just forget about the fact that he caused the death of a young women and got away with it... :-\

Quote from: J70 on August 27, 2009, 02:14:18 AM
He may have been a great politician and tried to do his best for the poor and so on, but I  cannot hold him in high regard because of Mary Jo Kepechne. Its not like he was a kid in his late teens or early 20s. Everyone makes mistakes, but you have to stand up and take responsibility for your actions. He acted appallingly in the aftermath and never paid the price that any normal, unconnected person would have.

What he said

Agreed..... and then to say that that's the reason he never made president  :o
how about a reason why he never done 20 years like you or me never mind
continue on as a State Sen for as long as he did...give me a break!
Oh but that's right he did apologize  ::)

Ted Kennedy, RIP, a family touched by great tragedy. A great friend of Ireland.

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 27, 2009, 03:57:28 AM
Agreed..... and then to say that that's the reason he never made president  :o
how about a reason why he never done 20 years like you or me never mind
continue on as a State Sen for as long as he did...give me a break!
Oh but that's right he did apologize  ::)

He was tried and convicted of leaving the scene of an accident. Unless you have evidence that he intended to kill her then he didn't 'get away with it'. In many interviews he stated that he thought of that event every day of his life.

Any chance of Cheney ever seeing a trial?

 >:(

Or Wolfowitz, or Haynes.  Corrupt, the bloody lot of them. 

I'm no fan of the Kennedys but my parents had the obligitory picture of JFK on the wall beside the pope when I was a lad.  We still have the Sunday Press from his assassination.

Quote from: stephenite on August 27, 2009, 02:57:54 AM

Quote from: J70 on August 27, 2009, 02:14:18 AM
He may have been a great politician and tried to do his best for the poor and so on, but I  cannot hold him in high regard because of Mary Jo Kepechne. Its not like he was a kid in his late teens or early 20s. Everyone makes mistakes, but you have to stand up and take responsibility for your actions. He acted appallingly in the aftermath and never paid the price that any normal, unconnected person would have.

What he said

I third that. I always like the Kennedys in a sort of abstract way, but I could never warm to Ted. That incident was a very grubby stain on his whole life.

Quote from: ziggysego on August 26, 2009, 09:46:32 PM
RIP Ted Kennedy. An American who never forgotten his Irish roots.

I hope by "Irish roots" you don't mean his Drunkenness, Womanising, Hypocrisy, Lying and Cheating etc throughout the entire course of his life.

As far as this Irishman is concerned, he was a rogue from a family of rogues. I would hope that it was the Kennedys' time in America which accounts for all of it.

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 12:33:10 PM

Quote from: ziggysego on August 26, 2009, 09:46:32 PM
RIP Ted Kennedy. An American who never forgotten his Irish roots.

I hope by "Irish roots" you don't mean his Drunkenness, Womanising, Hypocrisy, Lying and Cheating etc throughout the entire course of his life.

As far as this Irishman is concerned, he was a rogue from a family of rogues. I would hope that it was the Kennedys' time in America which accounts for all of it.

Oh course not, but he has done a lot to improve the lifes of Irish men and women. Even you must admit that.

Quote from: ziggysego on August 27, 2009, 12:34:32 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 12:33:10 PM

Quote from: ziggysego on August 26, 2009, 09:46:32 PM
RIP Ted Kennedy. An American who never forgotten his Irish roots.

I hope by "Irish roots" you don't mean his Drunkenness, Womanising, Hypocrisy, Lying and Cheating etc throughout the entire course of his life.

As far as this Irishman is concerned, he was a rogue from a family of rogues. I would hope that it was the Kennedys' time in America which accounts for all of it.

Oh course not, but he has done a lot to improve the lifes of Irish men and women. Even you must admit that.

How so?

Got Clinton involved in Irish affairs, which brought about the Good Friday Agreement for one.

It is no surprise that Unionists cannot warm to the Kennedy family, I was no fan of Ted for his Chappaquiddick incident but JFK was a reforming president who helped break down racial barriers in the states.  Hardline Unionists just never seem to be able to warm to power sharing or equality for all no matter where in the world, we are used to that kind of stance over here.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 12:41:10 PM
It is no surprise that Unionists cannot warm to the Kennedy family

Well what the Hell do you expect? For instance, when Ted K called for Britain to disengage from Ireland, he advised any Prods who didn't like it that they could "go back where they came from". Considering my people were in Ireland over a decade before the "Mayflower" even set sail, I don't see why I should have to take lessons in rights of residence from some "Paddy-Come-Lately" like him, especially one located in a country which treated its own indigenous people the way they did.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 12:41:10 PM
but JFK was a reforming president who helped break down racial barriers in the states. 

Ah right, the same JFK who took the USA into Vietnam. I m ust say, that was a hell of a contribution towards Race Relations. Anyhow, when it came to domestic Race Relations, LBJ achieved a hell of a sight more in practical terms than JFK ever did.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 12:41:10 PM
Hardline Unionists just never seem to be able to warm to power sharing or equality for all no matter where in the world, we are used to that kind of stance over here.

Would those be the same "Hardline Unionists" who voted overwhelmingly in the GFA for enforced power sharing as-of-right, unlike in any other comparable Western democracy you can think of?

Quote from: ziggysego on August 27, 2009, 12:37:19 PM
Got Clinton involved in Irish affairs, which brought about the Good Friday Agreement for one.

It was not Clinton's involvement in Irish Affairs which brought about the GFA, still less his introduction to Ireland by Ted Kennedy.
There were innumerable other developments and players, most long before Clinton ever even heard of Ireland, which were critical to the process getting under way.
As for Ted Kennedy's involvement, the (typically) naked opportunism he latterly displayed in jumping onto the GFA Bandwagon etc should be set against his record of decades of agitating over Ireland in his Boston homeland etc, all of which was based on a "Brits Out" agenda, which was the very opposite of the Consent Principle which underlies the whole GFA.

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 12:57:27 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 12:41:10 PM
It is no surprise that Unionists cannot warm to the Kennedy family

Well what the Hell do you expect? For instance, when Ted K called for Britain to disengage from Ireland, he advised any Prods who didn't like it that they could "go back where they came from". Considering my people were in Ireland over a decade before the "Mayflower" even set sail, I don't see who I should have to take lessons in rights of residence from some "Paddy-Come-Lately" like him, especially one located in a country which treated its own indigenous people the way they did.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 12:41:10 PM
but JFK was a reforming president who helped break down racial barriers in the states. 

Ah right, the same JFK who took the USA into Vietnam. I m ust say, that was a hell of a contribution towards Race Relations. Anyhow, when it came to domestic Race Relations, LBJ achieved a hell of a sight more in practical terms than JFK ever did.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 12:41:10 PM
Hardline Unionists just never seem to be able to warm to power sharing or equality for all no matter where in the world, we are used to that kind of stance over here.

Would those be the same "Hardline Unionists" who voted overwhelmingly in the GFA for enforced power sharing as-of-right, unlike in any other comparable Western democracy you can think of?

I repeat, I was no fan of Ted Kennedy so attempts by you to engage about him are futile however as ziggy said he certainly helped Clinton come on board over here whether you like it or not, this is the same Clinton who had a major hand in the GFA you are quick to robustly quote back at me, in fact some say his interventions were crucial to securing the gfa.
Howver your revisionist approach to JFK sums up all that is bad about you and hardline Unionists, you really ticked all the boxes with that rant, does history not say he was considering pulling out of Vietnam also before his untimely death, and LBJ who you are quick to canonise was pro Vietman as much as any president?  Like all presidents, leaders of nations etc you will find policies that present them in a bad light if you google hard enough, however you are being at best unkind and at worst totally blind if you cannot accept JFK as a reforming president, your head really is stuck in the white cliffs of Dover. 

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 01:16:23 PM
I repeat, I was no fan of Ted Kennedy so attempts by you to engage about him are futile however as ziggy said he certainly helped Clinton come on board over here whether you like it or not, this is the same Clinton who had a major hand in the GFA you are quick to robustly quote back at me, in fact some say his interventions were crucial to securing the gfa.

By "some", you mean people whose surname was "Clinton", I take it?
Anyhow, I don't want to get into a "Who's Who" of the GFA etc. Suffice it to say that imo, Ted Kennedy's involvement was typical opportunism, and while welcome even belatedly, must be set against decades of encouraging a "Brits Out of Ireland" agenda in the USA, which encouraged Irish Republican militancy, whilst being totally antithetical to the Consent Principle which underpins the whole GFA.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 01:16:23 PM
Howver your revisionist approach to JFK sums up all that is bad about you and hardline Unionists, you really ticked all the boxes with that rant, does history not say he was considering pulling out of Vietnam also before his untimely death

Ah right. So having covertly brought the USA into an immoral and indefensible war in Vietnam, then being made to appreciate that it may be unwinnable (as well as potentially a vote-loser), it makes JFK a "Man of Peace and Good Race Relations" to point out that he later began to have second thoughts.  ::)
That's all right, then.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 01:16:23 PM
and LBJ who you are quick to canonise was pro Vietman as much as any president? 

I did not seek to defend LBJ eg in his approach to Vietnam, never mind "canonise" him .
Rather, when it came to the topic of Race Relations (introduced by you), I merely pointed out that domestically, LBJ's record was actually much more effective in bringing about change than that of JFK.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 01:16:23 PM
Like all presidents, leaders of nations etc you will find policies that present them in a bad light if you google hard enough, however you are being at best unkind and at worst totally blind if you cannot accept JFK as a reforming president,

I never claimed that JFK was not a reforming President.
Rather, when you praised him for his contribution to Race Relations, I pointed out that this should be set against his intervention in Vietnam, in a War which had a distinctly racist element to it.
Or as Muhammed Ali famously put it:
"I ain't got no quarrel with them Viet Cong. They never called me nigger."

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 01:16:23 PM
your head really is stuck in the white cliffs of Dover.

Er, the White Cliffs are made up of chalk, not sand.  ::)

Welcome again Evil. You have managed to turn a thread of respect in a slanging match. Objective achieved, your class knows no begining.

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 01:45:46 PMEr, the White Cliffs are made up of chalk, not sand.  ::)

Says it all about you and your arrogance towards others on here.
I don't think JFK had time for any 2nd thoughts about Vietnam  ::), he was assasinated you know.

Evil Genius:

QuoteConsidering my people were in Ireland over a decade before the "Mayflower" even set sail, I don't see why I should have to take lessons in rights of residence from some "Paddy-Come-Lately" like him, especially one located in a country which treated its own indigenous people the way they did.

I have waited years to hear you say it EG. you could be talking about Paisley, Robinson or any of them.

Quote from: Sandino on August 27, 2009, 01:56:50 PM
Welcome again Evil. You have managed to turn a thread of respect in a slanging match. Objective achieved, your class knows no begining.

So you would impose some sort of censorship on this Board, then? May I take it that beyond a simple RIP, it is permissable for certain posters to compose paeons of praise, but not for others to express their criticisms?

If we were talking about a private individual, then whatever I thought of him, I would hope to retain a certain respect for the dead and the fact that he/she could not answer back.

However, people like the Kennedys were public figures, whose words and deeds directly affected many millions of people all around the world. Therefore imo they are "fair game" for analysis and criticism, even after their death.
Or will you argue that all the Biographies of Ted Kennedy, which will inevitably appear in the coming weeks, should be purged of any hitherto unpublished revelations, which are now no longer subject to libel laws?

P.S. If/when eg Paisley should snuff it, and I decide to come on this Board and state what I really feel about the Arch Bigot, no doubt you will be first in the queue to condemn me for my impropriety and lack of taste?  ::)

P.P.S. If you actually read back through the thread, J70, Gallsman, Stephenite, Tyrone's Own and AZ Offally all posted less than complimentary comments before I ever even put finger to keyboard. But I guess in the world you live in, it is OK for certain posters to do so, but heaven forbid that other posters should express an awkward opinion, contrary to the norm.

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 12:57:27 PM
Would those be the same "Hardline Unionists" who voted overwhelmingly in the GFA for enforced power sharing as-of-right, unlike in any other comparable Western democracy you can think of?

As was pointed out by one of the OWC shift and supported by voting records.
Hardline Unionists in the main, voted AGAINST the GFA.

Quote from: muppet on August 27, 2009, 02:57:31 PM
Evil Genius:

QuoteConsidering my people were in Ireland over a decade before the "Mayflower" even set sail, I don't see why I should have to take lessons in rights of residence from some "Paddy-Come-Lately" like him, especially one located in a country which treated its own indigenous people the way they did.

I have waited years to hear you say it EG. you could be talking about Paisley, Robinson or any of them.

1. The Celts are almost certainly not the indigenous people of Ireland, so if that is your own ethnic background, then you should be wary of anyone telling other people to "go back whence they came".
2. In the context of Ted Kennedy's exhortation to Irish Protestants to "go back etc", I actually had in mind the reaction to such a noble principle of any Native American who might have been listening.

Apart from that, good point, well made... ::)

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 03:24:22 PM

Quote from: muppet on August 27, 2009, 02:57:31 PM
Evil Genius:

QuoteConsidering my people were in Ireland over a decade before the "Mayflower" even set sail, I don't see why I should have to take lessons in rights of residence from some "Paddy-Come-Lately" like him, especially one located in a country which treated its own indigenous people the way they did.

I have waited years to hear you say it EG. you could be talking about Paisley, Robinson or any of them.

1. The Celts are almost certainly not the indigenous people of Ireland, so if that is your own ethnic background, then you should be wary of anyone telling other people to "go back whence they came".
2. In the context of Ted Kennedy's exhortation to Irish Protestants to "go back etc", I actually had in mind the reaction to such a noble principle of any Native American who might have been listening.

Apart form that, good point, well made... ::)

Thats alright Evil Genuis I reckon my great great great great great great...........................X1000 father was the first man in Ireland, so you can all fck off my island.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 01:59:44 PM
I don't think JFK had time for any 2nd thoughts about Vietnam  ::), he was assasinated you know.

Remind me again who it was made the following comment in post #27?
"does history not say he [JFK] was considering pulling out of Vietnam also before his untimely death"   :D

Quote from: Main Street on August 27, 2009, 03:21:39 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 12:57:27 PM
Would those be the same "Hardline Unionists" who voted overwhelmingly in the GFA for enforced power sharing as-of-right, unlike in any other comparable Western democracy you can think of?

As was pointed out by one of the OWC shift and supported by voting records.
Hardline Unionists in the main, voted AGAINST the GFA.

Really? I thought that those Unionists "Hardliners" who voted against the GFA were in the minority of the wider Unionist community at the time of the vote (which was the point I was trying to make).

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 03:35:59 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 01:59:44 PM
I don't think JFK had time for any 2nd thoughts about Vietnam  ::), he was assasinated you know.

Remind me again who it was made the following comment in post #27?
"does history not say he [JFK] was considering pulling out of Vietnam also before his untimely death"   :D

You are not as stupid as we like to think you are, that you would read everything I say literally, if you had the wherewithal to consider my point, history has judged that JFK's untimely demise meant he could never see through any troop withdrawals he may have been considering - i.e he never had the opportunity to carry this out = his 2nd thoughts and lack of time to carry them out because - now let me spell this out - he was killed, a bullet in the head would soon stop you having second thoughts I would daresay  :D :D - its easy to apply these on my posts too.  Some people just fail to see it, well done wee lad, keep up.  if it takes you the guts of an hour to srutinise my post for any chink of light it shows how desperate you are to save this sinking ship. 

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 03:24:22 PM

Quote from: muppet on August 27, 2009, 02:57:31 PM
Evil Genius:

QuoteConsidering my people were in Ireland over a decade before the "Mayflower" even set sail, I don't see why I should have to take lessons in rights of residence from some "Paddy-Come-Lately" like him, especially one located in a country which treated its own indigenous people the way they did.

I have waited years to hear you say it EG. you could be talking about Paisley, Robinson or any of them.

1. The Celts are almost certainly not the indigenous people of Ireland, so if that is your own ethnic background, then you should be wary of anyone telling other people to "go back whence they came".
2. In the context of Ted Kennedy's exhortation to Irish Protestants to "go back etc", I actually had in mind the reaction to such a noble principle of any Native American who might have been listening.

Apart from that, good point, well made... ::)

Modern genetic analysis tells us that the same people who live here now have been here long before history thinks the Celts migrated this way. Even if current historical thinking about Celts migrating holds true they were still here 1,500 years before you.

Finally I didn't tell anyone to back to where they came from, bizarrely that was you lecturing about Ted Kennedy.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 03:48:33 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 03:35:59 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 01:59:44 PM
I don't think JFK had time for any 2nd thoughts about Vietnam  ::), he was assasinated you know.

Remind me again who it was made the following comment in post #27?
"does history not say he [JFK] was considering pulling out of Vietnam also before his untimely death"   :D

You are not as stupid as we like to think you are, that you would read everything I say literally, if you had the wherewithal to consider my point, history has judged that JFK's untimely demise meant he could never see through any troop withdrawals he may have been considering - i.e he never had the opportunity to carry this out = his 2nd thoughts and lack of time to carry them out because - now let me spell this out - he was killed, a bullet in the head would soon stop you having second thoughts I would daresay  :D :D - its easy to apply these on my posts too.  Some people just fail to see it, well done wee lad, keep up.  if it takes you the guts of an hour to srutinise my post for any chink of light it shows how desperate you are to save this sinking ship.

Doogie,
That attempt to make up for being caught out is like shitting the bed, then trying to kick it out with your heel - it only makes you look even more stupid.

Take a break, it'll soon be forgotten.

Quote from: muppet on August 27, 2009, 03:59:53 PM
Modern genetic analysis tells us that the same people who live here now have been here long before history thinks the Celts migrated this. Even if current historical thinking about Celts migrating holds true they were still here 1,500 years before you.

Finally I didn't tell anyone to back to where they came from, bizarrely that was you lecturing about Ted Kennedy.

Is 1,500 years the benchmark, then? For if it is, then every last white settler in the USA had better start packing his bags and leaving the Native Americans to enjoy their homeland in peace.

Quote from: muppet on August 27, 2009, 03:59:53 PM
Finally I didn't tell anyone to back to where they came from, bizarrely that was you lecturing about Ted Kennedy.

Nothing "bizarre" about it. Someone commented about how "bitter" Brits like myself are about Ted Kennedy, to which i replied it was no wonder, since he once famously advised any of us who didn't like his prescription for a United Ireland to "go back where we came from".

Coming from a family whose roots in America were considerably shallower than that of most Unionists in Ireland, I thought that both rich and an example of his visceral anti-Brit bigotry.

As for his recent acceptance of an honorary British Knighthood, that only serves to demonstrate that he was a total hypocrite, right up to the end.

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 04:17:53 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 03:48:33 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 03:35:59 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 01:59:44 PM
I don't think JFK had time for any 2nd thoughts about Vietnam  ::), he was assasinated you know.

Remind me again who it was made the following comment in post #27?
"does history not say he [JFK] was considering pulling out of Vietnam also before his untimely death"   :D

You are not as stupid as we like to think you are, that you would read everything I say literally, if you had the wherewithal to consider my point, history has judged that JFK's untimely demise meant he could never see through any troop withdrawals he may have been considering - i.e he never had the opportunity to carry this out = his 2nd thoughts and lack of time to carry them out because - now let me spell this out - he was killed, a bullet in the head would soon stop you having second thoughts I would daresay  :D :D - its easy to apply these on my posts too.  Some people just fail to see it, well done wee lad, keep up.  if it takes you the guts of an hour to srutinise my post for any chink of light it shows how desperate you are to save this sinking ship.

Doogie,
That attempt to make up for being caught out is like shitting the bed, then trying to kick it out with your heel - it only makes you look even more stupid.

Take a break, it'll soon be forgotten.

We are used to this mentality from Unionism over the years, always seeking the final word and trying to trample over everyone in their way, they can never accept their own shortcomings.  You have done a good job of highlighting your own today, I have enjoyed it  ;)
Relax son  ;)

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 04:27:14 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 04:17:53 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 03:48:33 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 03:35:59 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 01:59:44 PM
I don't think JFK had time for any 2nd thoughts about Vietnam  ::), he was assasinated you know.

Remind me again who it was made the following comment in post #27?
"does history not say he [JFK] was considering pulling out of Vietnam also before his untimely death"   :D

You are not as stupid as we like to think you are, that you would read everything I say literally, if you had the wherewithal to consider my point, history has judged that JFK's untimely demise meant he could never see through any troop withdrawals he may have been considering - i.e he never had the opportunity to carry this out = his 2nd thoughts and lack of time to carry them out because - now let me spell this out - he was killed, a bullet in the head would soon stop you having second thoughts I would daresay  :D :D - its easy to apply these on my posts too.  Some people just fail to see it, well done wee lad, keep up.  if it takes you the guts of an hour to srutinise my post for any chink of light it shows how desperate you are to save this sinking ship.

Doogie,
That attempt to make up for being caught out is like shitting the bed, then trying to kick it out with your heel - it only makes you look even more stupid.

Take a break, it'll soon be forgotten.

We are used to this mentality from Unionism over the years, always seeking the final word and trying to trample over everyone in their way, they can never accept their own shortcomings.  You have done a good job of highlighting your own today, I have enjoyed it  ;)
Relax son  ;)

Shitting the bed, trying to kick it out with your heel and using your last clean towel to try and clean up the mess the next morning.

Quit when you're behind, for God's sake!   :D

QuoteConsidering my people were in Ireland over a decade before the "Mayflower" even set sail,

You introduced the concept of time spent by your ancestors in a country as a measurement. You even introduced decades as a unit of that measurement.

1,500 years is a lot of decades.

So if your argument trumps Ted Kennedy, using conventional historical wisdom I trump by 150 to 1 and that is ignoring modern wisdom which knock your argument for 6 (couldn't resist a empirical cliche).

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 04:30:40 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 04:27:14 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 04:17:53 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 03:48:33 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 03:35:59 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 01:59:44 PM
I don't think JFK had time for any 2nd thoughts about Vietnam  ::), he was assasinated you know.

Remind me again who it was made the following comment in post #27?
"does history not say he [JFK] was considering pulling out of Vietnam also before his untimely death"   :D

You are not as stupid as we like to think you are, that you would read everything I say literally, if you had the wherewithal to consider my point, history has judged that JFK's untimely demise meant he could never see through any troop withdrawals he may have been considering - i.e he never had the opportunity to carry this out = his 2nd thoughts and lack of time to carry them out because - now let me spell this out - he was killed, a bullet in the head would soon stop you having second thoughts I would daresay  :D :D - its easy to apply these on my posts too.  Some people just fail to see it, well done wee lad, keep up.  if it takes you the guts of an hour to srutinise my post for any chink of light it shows how desperate you are to save this sinking ship.

Doogie,
That attempt to make up for being caught out is like shitting the bed, then trying to kick it out with your heel - it only makes you look even more stupid.

Take a break, it'll soon be forgotten.

We are used to this mentality from Unionism over the years, always seeking the final word and trying to trample over everyone in their way, they can never accept their own shortcomings.  You have done a good job of highlighting your own today, I have enjoyed it  ;)
Relax son  ;)

Shitting the bed, trying to kick it out with your heel and using your last clean towel to try and clean up the mess the next morning.

Quit when you're behind, for God's sake!   :D

So it is a race?  Ah, I gettit.  Unionist supremacy at work again.  Thanks!  It appears you have used said towel to wipe your face and the shit has got in your eyes, a shit-head I suppose you could be called  :D
 

Quote from: muppet on August 27, 2009, 04:33:58 PM

QuoteConsidering my people were in Ireland over a decade before the "Mayflower" even set sail,

You introduced the concept of time spent by your ancestors in a country as a measurement. You even introduced decades as a unit of that measurement.

1,500 years is a lot of decades.

So if your argument trumps Ted Kennedy, using conventional historical wisdom I trump by 150 to 1 and that is ignoring modern wisdom which knock your argument for 6 (couldn't resist a empirical cliche).

Righto so. You can stay in Ireland, but we Planters must go back to Scotland etc.

And 400 million Americans, Canadians and Mexicans must go back to Europe, Africa, Asia and God Knows Where Else.

Wise old owl, was Teddy... ::)

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 04:35:14 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 04:30:40 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 04:27:14 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 04:17:53 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 03:48:33 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 03:35:59 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 01:59:44 PM
I don't think JFK had time for any 2nd thoughts about Vietnam  ::), he was assasinated you know.

Remind me again who it was made the following comment in post #27?
"does history not say he [JFK] was considering pulling out of Vietnam also before his untimely death"   :D

You are not as stupid as we like to think you are, that you would read everything I say literally, if you had the wherewithal to consider my point, history has judged that JFK's untimely demise meant he could never see through any troop withdrawals he may have been considering - i.e he never had the opportunity to carry this out = his 2nd thoughts and lack of time to carry them out because - now let me spell this out - he was killed, a bullet in the head would soon stop you having second thoughts I would daresay  :D :D - its easy to apply these on my posts too.  Some people just fail to see it, well done wee lad, keep up.  if it takes you the guts of an hour to srutinise my post for any chink of light it shows how desperate you are to save this sinking ship.

Doogie,
That attempt to make up for being caught out is like shitting the bed, then trying to kick it out with your heel - it only makes you look even more stupid.

Take a break, it'll soon be forgotten.

We are used to this mentality from Unionism over the years, always seeking the final word and trying to trample over everyone in their way, they can never accept their own shortcomings.  You have done a good job of highlighting your own today, I have enjoyed it  ;)
Relax son  ;)

Shitting the bed, trying to kick it out with your heel and using your last clean towel to try and clean up the mess the next morning.

Quit when you're behind, for God's sake!   :D

So it is a race?  Ah, I gettit.  Unionist supremacy at work again.  Thanks!  It appears you have used said towel to wipe your face and the shit has got in your eyes, a shit-head I suppose you could be called  :D

OK, you win. Now go and clean yourself up.

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 04:48:45 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 04:35:14 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 04:30:40 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 04:27:14 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 04:17:53 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 03:48:33 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 03:35:59 PM

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 01:59:44 PM
I don't think JFK had time for any 2nd thoughts about Vietnam  ::), he was assasinated you know.

Remind me again who it was made the following comment in post #27?
"does history not say he [JFK] was considering pulling out of Vietnam also before his untimely death"   :D

You are not as stupid as we like to think you are, that you would read everything I say literally, if you had the wherewithal to consider my point, history has judged that JFK's untimely demise meant he could never see through any troop withdrawals he may have been considering - i.e he never had the opportunity to carry this out = his 2nd thoughts and lack of time to carry them out because - now let me spell this out - he was killed, a bullet in the head would soon stop you having second thoughts I would daresay  :D :D - its easy to apply these on my posts too.  Some people just fail to see it, well done wee lad, keep up.  if it takes you the guts of an hour to srutinise my post for any chink of light it shows how desperate you are to save this sinking ship.

Doogie,
That attempt to make up for being caught out is like shitting the bed, then trying to kick it out with your heel - it only makes you look even more stupid.

Take a break, it'll soon be forgotten.

We are used to this mentality from Unionism over the years, always seeking the final word and trying to trample over everyone in their way, they can never accept their own shortcomings.  You have done a good job of highlighting your own today, I have enjoyed it  ;)
Relax son  ;)

Shitting the bed, trying to kick it out with your heel and using your last clean towel to try and clean up the mess the next morning.

Quit when you're behind, for God's sake!   :D

So it is a race?  Ah, I gettit.  Unionist supremacy at work again.  Thanks!  It appears you have used said towel to wipe your face and the shit has got in your eyes, a shit-head I suppose you could be called  :D

OK, you win. Now go and clean yourself up.

Its not about winning or losing EG, you need to realise that  ;)

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 04:47:47 PM

Quote from: muppet on August 27, 2009, 04:33:58 PM

QuoteConsidering my people were in Ireland over a decade before the "Mayflower" even set sail,

You introduced the concept of time spent by your ancestors in a country as a measurement. You even introduced decades as a unit of that measurement.

1,500 years is a lot of decades.

So if your argument trumps Ted Kennedy, using conventional historical wisdom I trump by 150 to 1 and that is ignoring modern wisdom which knock your argument for 6 (couldn't resist a empirical cliche).

Righto so. You can stay in Ireland, but we Planters must go back to Scotland etc.

And 400 million Americans, Canadians and Mexicans must go back to Europe, Africa, Asia and God Knows Where Else.

Wise old owl, was Teddy... ::)

I never said anything like that did I?

Just send your flags and you administrative umbilical chord back.

Quote from: Doogie Browser on August 27, 2009, 04:54:29 PM

Its not about winning or losing,

Well you would say that, wouldn't you?

Quote from: muppet on August 27, 2009, 04:55:05 PM

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 04:47:47 PM

Quote from: muppet on August 27, 2009, 04:33:58 PM

QuoteConsidering my people were in Ireland over a decade before the "Mayflower" even set sail,

You introduced the concept of time spent by your ancestors in a country as a measurement. You even introduced decades as a unit of that measurement.

1,500 years is a lot of decades.

So if your argument trumps Ted Kennedy, using conventional historical wisdom I trump by 150 to 1 and that is ignoring modern wisdom which knock your argument for 6 (couldn't resist a empirical cliche).

Righto so. You can stay in Ireland, but we Planters must go back to Scotland etc.

And 400 million Americans, Canadians and Mexicans must go back to Europe, Africa, Asia and God Knows Where Else.

Wise old owl, was Teddy... ::)

I never said anything like that did I?

No, but Teddy did, you see. You know, Senator (Sir) Edward Kennedy, the subject of this thread.

Not getting involved with the other, I'll pay my own tribute. Ted Kennedy was not without his flaws but I think over the course of his political career did a hell of a lot more good than bad. I wonder how different the world would be if his brother(s) had lived to his age.

They will always be remembered fondly in Ireland despite all the begrudgery.

Quote from: magpie seanie on August 27, 2009, 05:02:40 PM
They [Kennedys] will always be remembered fondly in Ireland

Correction: They will always be remembered fondly in parts of Ireland.

Quote from: Orior on August 26, 2009, 09:41:56 PM
A fine man - just the one blemish.

QuoteI swam to the shore, but didnt feel like phoning the police or telling the parents that their daughter ha drowned until the next morning

1) Can anyone understand why he did that?
2) Would anyone else get away with it?

No & NO.

I will say nothing else on Kennedy because I have little constructive to say about the man.

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 05:59:22 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on August 27, 2009, 05:02:40 PM
They [Kennedys] will always be remembered fondly in Ireland

Correction: They will always be remembered fondly in parts of Ireland.

I suspect, as usual, that you have been doing way too much fondling of your own parts yourself.

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 05:59:22 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on August 27, 2009, 05:02:40 PM
They [Kennedys] will always be remembered fondly in Ireland

Correction: They will always be remembered fondly in parts of Ireland.

parts of ireland are still in ireland :D

i tell you what ted kennedy did for ireland and a time when ireland was not treated as a partner in the north by britian, he plagued ronald regan to make margaret thatcher to sign the anglo irish agreement which went against everything she preached. that anglo irish agreement led us to where we are today. maggie was willing to sell her soul for regans approval and she did. .

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 12:57:27 PM

Ah right, the same JFK who took the USA into Vietnam.
[/quote]

It was Eisenhower that brought the Yanks into Vietnam, not JFK.  During the French-IndoChina Wars from 1946 to 1954, the OSS/CIA/USA aided the French both with intelligence and logistics.  In 1956 it was the Americans who backed the puppet regime of Ngo Diem which rejected the national elections knowing that Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh would comprehensively win, and they helped to crush the pro-unification demonstrations and foil plots.  The CIA are known to have bought off or intimidated Diem's domestic opposition.  It was the USA which kept Diem in power with financial aid until his assassination in 1963 less than three weeks before JFK died. 

I can't be bothered reading the poliitcal stuff but RIP Ted Kennedy.

A man who may have made mistakes but, like most of his family, spent all his life using his power, money and influence to try and help those less fortunate than him.

"I think about my brothers every day ... They set high standards. Sometimes you measure up, sometimes you don't."

Quote from: Aerlik on August 28, 2009, 07:04:48 AM

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 12:57:27 PM
Ah right, the same JFK who took the USA into Vietnam.

It was Eisenhower that brought the Yanks into Vietnam, not JFK.  During the French-IndoChina Wars from 1946 to 1954, the OSS/CIA/USA aided the French both with intelligence and logistics.  In 1956 it was the Americans who backed the puppet regime of Ngo Diem which rejected the national elections knowing that Ho Chi Minh and the Viet Minh would comprehensively win, and they helped to crush the pro-unification demonstrations and foil plots.  The CIA are known to have bought off or intimidated Diem's domestic opposition.  It was the USA which kept Diem in power with financial aid until his assassination in 1963 less than three weeks before JFK died.

Boy, you certainly caught me out there! How could I have made such a mistake? I mean to say, it's not as if I was referring to some crazy notion like eg that it was JFK who brought the US Army  into Vietnam, was it?

Oh and btw, am I correct in saying that there were troops from your adopted country, Australia, who fought in Vietnam as well? If I am, then perhaps you should write to your Head of State to complain. ;)

Then again, maybe my memory is playing up, and it wasn't JFK who sent the Marines into Vietnam, but instead was Anton Rogan?  :D

Epitome (of) Gobshitedness, all I did was correct an error, just as I did the other day on a football thread.   Eisenhower sent in military advisors.  In common parlance, that means military officials aka soldiers.

Correct, there were Australian (and South Korean) soldiers in Vietnam.  But why should  I want to complain?  What is the relevance of that comment?

Perhaps a little bit of humility is called for.  Among the cornered rats was King Rat aka EG!

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 05:59:22 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on August 27, 2009, 05:02:40 PM
They [Kennedys] will always be remembered fondly in Ireland

Correction: They will always be remembered fondly in parts of Ireland.

The arrogance and pointlessness of that post!

I was correct the first time.

Quote from: Aerlik on August 28, 2009, 11:41:11 AM
Epitome (of) Gobshitedness, all I did was correct an error, just as I did the other day on a football thread.   Eisenhower sent in military advisors.  In common parlance, that means military officials aka soldiers.

Yes, technically I was wrong and you were right. But anyone reading the thread (including you) knows damned fine what I meant, which was why my original point (i.e. about JFK's role in Vietnam) still stands.

Quote from: Aerlik on August 28, 2009, 11:41:11 AM
Correct, there were Australian (and South Korean) soldiers in Vietnam.  But why should  I want to complain?  What is the relevance of that comment?

I have never detected any reticence on your part in holding me, "an ordinary Brit", accountable for the "sins" of the British Government.

Therefore I thought it appropriate to remind you of your own country's past policy on such matters - especially since I was born British, whereas you choose to be Australian, with Her Maj as your Head of State and all!  :D

Sweet Jesus... ::)

Quote from: Evil Genius on August 27, 2009, 05:59:22 PM

Quote from: magpie seanie on August 27, 2009, 05:02:40 PM
They [Kennedys] will always be remembered fondly in Ireland

Correction: They will always be remembered fondly in parts of Ireland.

There isn't a county in Ireland where they are not fondly remembered. You yourself sound like an Andrew Jackson man, the US President with the closest links to Ireland, of fine Ulster Protestant stock. Remind us again of his views of the British?

Could there be anything more predictable than those contributions of a bitter right wing unionist coming to a thread on the death of a Kennedy, who in his involvement in Irish politics would share and support the political ethos of a representative like John Hume.

QuoteHe was tried and convicted of leaving the scene of an accident.

*Shakes head*..... Is that what did, simply left the scene of an accident?

QuoteIn many interviews he stated that he thought of that event every day of his life.

Yes and I'm sure that knowing that has Warmed Mary Joe's Family every day of their lives since ::)

QuoteAny chance of Cheney ever seeing a trial?

Ah sure why stop there....Should Clinton be locked up also?

Ah the irony here with some of our southern counterparts shining light on the great mans efforts to bring about peace in the North....when truth be told, most of ye couldn't care less if we broke off in to the north Atlantic! but hey don't let the truth get in the way of an opportunity to sing the praises of a modern day hero to most here.

and you'd crucify him for one mistake TO?

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 28, 2009, 06:11:39 PM

QuoteHe was tried and convicted of leaving the scene of an accident.

*Shakes head*..... Is that what did, simply left the scene of an accident?

*Shakes head and wonders why prejudiced people can't read* It says he was convicted of leaving the scene of an accident.

Quote

QuoteIn many interviews he stated that he thought of that event every day of his life.

Yes and I'm sure that knowing that has Warmed Mary Joe's Family every day of their lives since ::)

Pathetic comment. No doubt your deep concern for her family has nothing to do with your rabid anti-Democrat ideology.

Quote

QuoteAny chance of Cheney ever seeing a trial?

Ah sure why stop there....Should Clinton be locked up also?

Why? He didn't invade a country killing over 100,000 people based on a lie. But then Mary Joe isn't Iraqi is she?

Quote
Ah the irony here with some of our southern counterparts shining light on the great mans efforts to bring about peace in the North....when truth be told, most of ye couldn't care less if we broke off in to the north Atlantic! but hey don't let the truth get in the way of an opportunity to sing the praises of a modern day hero to most here.

You seem to have prioritised the politics of your new country over that of your homeland. Hence your inability to give any credit to Ted Kennedy. That says it all.

QuoteQuote

        He was tried and convicted of leaving the scene of an accident.


    *Shakes head*..... Is that what did, simply left the scene of an accident?


*Shakes head and wonders why prejudiced people can't read* It says he was convicted of leaving the scene of an accident.

Prejudiced :D  You went to the trouble to mention that he was tried and convicted of leaving the scene of the accident to which I asked a very straight forward question, obviously straight forward answers aren't your strong point!

QuoteIn many interviews he stated that he thought of that event every day of his life.


    Yes and I'm sure that knowing that has Warmed Mary Joe's Family every day of their lives since ::)

Pathetic comment. No doubt your deep concern for her family has nothing to do with your rabid anti-Democrat ideology.

Pathetic response ::) My thoughts on Democratic ideology play no part in what is the real issue here, my amazement at how we're supposed to suddenly feel sorry for him because he thought about it every day... :'(

QuoteAny chance of Cheney ever seeing a trial?


    Ah sure why stop there....Should Clinton be locked up also?


Why? He didn't invade a country killing over 100,000 people based on a lie. But then Mary Joe isn't Iraqi is she?

Care to mention the 4 or 5 hundred thousand Iraqi children that died as a result of the sanctions he imposed? but then Albright said it was a price worth paying :o
Does his instrumental backing of Milo mean anything to you?

Quote
You seem to have prioritised the politics of your new country over that of your homeland. Hence your inability to give any credit to Ted Kennedy. That says it all.

Such sanctimonious crap....Who are you again?

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 28, 2009, 11:23:01 PM

QuoteQuote

        He was tried and convicted of leaving the scene of an accident.


    *Shakes head*..... Is that what did, simply left the scene of an accident?


*Shakes head and wonders why prejudiced people can't read* It says he was convicted of leaving the scene of an accident.

Prejudiced :D  You went to the trouble to mention that he was tried and convicted of leaving the scene of the accident to which I asked a very straight forward question, obviously straight forward answers aren't your strong point!

QuoteIn many interviews he stated that he thought of that event every day of his life.


    Yes and I'm sure that knowing that has Warmed Mary Joe's Family every day of their lives since ::)

Pathetic comment. No doubt your deep concern for her family has nothing to do with your rabid anti-Democrat ideology.

Pathetic response ::) My thoughts on Democratic ideology play no part in what is the real issue here, my amazement at how we're supposed to suddenly feel sorry for him because he thought about it every day... :'(

QuoteAny chance of Cheney ever seeing a trial?


    Ah sure why stop there....Should Clinton be locked up also?


Why? He didn't invade a country killing over 100,000 people based on a lie. But then Mary Joe isn't Iraqi is she?

Care to mention the 4 or 5 hundred thousand Iraqi children that died as a result of the sanctions he imposed? but then Albright said it was a price worth paying :o
Does his instrumental backing of Milo mean anything to you?

Quote
You seem to have prioritised the politics of your new country over that of your homeland. Hence your inability to give any credit to Ted Kennedy. That says it all.

Such sanctimonious crap....Who are you again?

Sums it up perfectly IMO, well said.

Evil Genuis your claim that Kennedy spent years agitating against Protestants in Northern Ireland are misleading. Kennedy's first public opinion on NI is listed below from Wikipedia and ties in with exactly what I am aware of from other literature. That is that he made a stupid comment in 1971 but soon became more informed on the troubles and aligned himself with John Hume thereafter. In fact he would describe the IRA as 'barbarians' before too long and he was key in the States for pushing some influential Irish-American backers away from the push for militant republicanism and towards constitutional reform. Can you imagine the funds the IRA could have received if this wasn't the case?
With regard to what he did in the 1990s he didn't contribute like some of the NI politicians did but he played a part. He played a part in Gerry Adams getting his US visa, something Adams said brought the IRA ceasefire forward by about six months.

Anyway here's the Wikipedia quote.

In October 1971, Kennedy made his first speech about The Troubles in Northern Ireland: he said that "Ulster is becoming Britain's Vietnam", demanded that British troops leave the northern counties, called for a united Ireland,[53] and declared that Protestants who could not accept this "should be given a decent opportunity to go back to Britain" (a position he backed away from within a couple of years).[54] Kennedy was harshly criticized by the British, and formed a long political relationship with Irish Social Democratic and Labour Party founder John Hume.[53

On Chappaquiddick it is the cloud that will hang over any legacy. There is no doubt that what he did was terrible and he was extremely lucky to avoid jail. The incident can't be forgotten. But it shouldn't dominate his legacy. He was an incredibly radical and effective politician. He got over 300 bills through Congress and was influential in a lot of conflict resolution world wide. He went to South Africa to visit Tutu against the wishes of the apartheid government in the mid 80s when it was extremely dangerous to do so.

Also, while Chappaquiddick is mentioned, why is it we so rarely hear sympathy for Kennedy on his own losses? Two brothers assassanated within five years. His eldest brother killed in WW2. An older sister killed in a plane crash in 1948. Another sister left with the mental ability of a two year old after a barbaric frontal lobotomy. That is some amount of devastation for a man.

The good certainly far outweighs the bad in my opinion.

Quote
Also, while Chappaquiddick is mentioned, why is it we so rarely hear sympathy for Kennedy on his own losses? Two brothers assassanated within five years. His eldest brother killed in WW2. An older sister killed in a plane crash in 1948. Another sister left with the mental ability of a two year old after a barbaric frontal lobotomy. That is some amount of devastation for a man.

Plus the death of 3? nephews and his own son losing his leg at the age of 12.  and his last sister a couple of weeks ago. 

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 28, 2009, 11:23:01 PM

QuoteQuote

        He was tried and convicted of leaving the scene of an accident.


    *Shakes head*..... Is that what did, simply left the scene of an accident?


*Shakes head and wonders why prejudiced people can't read* It says he was convicted of leaving the scene of an accident.

Prejudiced :D  You went to the trouble to mention that he was tried and convicted of leaving the scene of the accident to which I asked a very straight forward question, obviously straight forward answers aren't your strong point!

Why ask the question that a judge has already ruled on and convicted him of? Unless you, a Tyrone man who emigrated to the States, has some evidence which seems to me to be unlikely in the extreme. You have attacked every Democrat mentioned here since your arrival and predictably you attacked the deceased Ted Kennedy while shedding crocodile tears over 'Mary Joe'. It is particularly pathetic that you couldn't hold your tongue on a tribute thread.

Quote

QuoteIn many interviews he stated that he thought of that event every day of his life.
    Yes and I'm sure that knowing that has Warmed Mary Joe's Family every day of their lives since ::)

Pathetic comment. No doubt your deep concern for her family has nothing to do with your rabid anti-Democrat ideology.

Pathetic response ::) My thoughts on Democratic ideology play no part in what is the real issue here, my amazement at how we're supposed to suddenly feel sorry for him because he thought about it every day... :'(

you are the one who feigned such deep concern for Mary Joe's family. If your concern wasn't ideological what else have you done for them? Or is throwing mud on a coffin how you show concern?

Quote

QuoteAny chance of Cheney ever seeing a trial?

    Ah sure why stop there....Should Clinton be locked up also?


Why? He didn't invade a country killing over 100,000 people based on a lie. But then Mary Joe isn't Iraqi is she?

Care to mention the 4 or 5 hundred thousand Iraqi children that died as a result of the sanctions he imposed? but then Albright said it was a price worth paying :o
Does his instrumental backing of Milo mean anything to you?

US Sanctions meant Hussain killed them. US bombs meant Cheney killed them. See?

Quote

Quote
You seem to have prioritised the politics of your new country over that of your homeland. Hence your inability to give any credit to Ted Kennedy. That says it all.

Such sanctimonious crap....Who are you again?

[/quote] Not as sanctimonious as your 3000 mile observation that southerners wouldn't care if NI never existed. Ted Kennedy did a hell of a lot for Ireland, but because you cheer for Republicans in the States your homeland is irrelevent. Bravo.

QuoteWhy ask the question

Why not answer it  :D... it was directed at you, I was leaving the questionable wrist slapping non-decision of the judge aside for the moment.
In acknowledging the fact that he was tried and convicted of leaving the scene of the accident... so very slowly for the third time
and yes this is directed at you is that what he's guilty of in your eyes, leaving the scene of an accident ???

QuoteYou have attacked every Democrat mentioned here since your arrival

Wha...... :D quite the contrare... sure I'm immediately fair game with play ground bully tactics for having an opinion and highlighting the blatant hypocrisy from the little lefties here,
it's a good job I'm up for it being from the left coast an all....lots of practice :-*

QuoteIt is particularly pathetic that you couldn't hold your tongue on a tribute thread.

Were you as outspoken of the left's shameless Vile towards Tony Snow even before he died, as he Failed in his fight with Colon cancer...
I think not, selective amnesia is rife amongst you Liberals at times like these!

Quoteyou are the one who feigned such deep concern for Mary Joe's family. If your concern wasn't ideological what else have you done for them? Or is throwing mud on a coffin how you show concern?

Again; My thoughts on Democratic ideology play no part in what is the real issue here, my amazement at how we're supposed to suddenly feel sorry for him because he thought about it every day... :'( yes it's cut and pasted from above cause you clearly didn't read it the first time around ::)

QuoteUS Sanctions meant Hussain killed them.

Ah yes and so even if I were to agree with you on this, surely in you Liberal compassionate bleeding heart of hearts that would have been reason
enough to go in and take him without relying on the Lie , you know the one.... that in going off the same intelligence report Bush was one of many many top brass from both sides
of the isle that agreed he had to be taken out ::) so do I take from your logic then that the sanctions imposed by Clinton were a success?

QuoteUS bombs meant Cheney killed them. See?

:D at least it's a break from the Ever faithful W bashing around here...good lad!

QuoteDoes his instrumental backing of Milo mean anything to you?

In letting you mouth run a little too fast for your mind, you accidentally slipped over this one.

QuoteNot as sanctimonious as your 3000 mile observation that southerners wouldn't care if NI never existed.

Simply payed attention to the general thinking around here when the conversation has arisen...unlike yourself muppet
who by all accounts doesn't feel the need to, sure you already know all there is to know about everything ::)
Have you ever actually been wrong about anything?? I think this last sentence say's all that needs to be said in trying to
find reason with someone like you!

**Liberalism is indeed a mental disorder**

Oh and for the 15th time, I'm not a republican... how uninformed and embarrassing is that anyone who doesn't go along with the
Hypocritical Liberal mindset must be a Republican.... ye see that's simply one example of how you're not as smart as you make yourself out to be ;D

Tyrone's Own I live in Ireland, remember that country.

I never heard of Tony Snow and have little interest in US right versus uber-right bilateral politics (to think you they call it left and right  ::))

Kennedy gets an RIP from me for lots of reasons but the biggest is probably the ability to rise above tiny minds.

Asking me anything about what happened that famous night is as pointless as you pontificating about it. 

In fairness TO, on your point about Tony Snow (whose name I doubt if most people here even recognize), every single time a political figure dies in the US, there are people on the opposite side of the aisle who always justify their bile by saying "remember what the left/right did when X died?" Those who are currently revelling in Kennedy's death will be the very ones who will be exhibiting your selctive amnesia and crying foul when the next major right wing figure dies and some idiots from the left start spewing rubbish. And vice versa.

Quote from: J70 on August 29, 2009, 06:25:23 PM
In fairness TO, on your point about Tony Snow (whose name I doubt if most people here even recognize), every single time a political figure dies in the US, there are people on the opposite side of the aisle who always justify their bile by saying "remember what the left/right did when X died?" Those who are currently revelling in Kennedy's death will be the very ones who will be exhibiting your selctive amnesia and crying foul when the next major right wing figure dies and some idiots from the left start spewing rubbish. And vice versa.

I'd agree with that and am in no way reveling in his death...merely astonished as to how the facts can be construed to show the man for some kind of hero,
He should have done time of leaving Mary Joe to die in that car and lets not forget his Treasonous act in undermining Regan with the Russians.
The Fact that he got away with both simply because he was a Kennedy is Horse shit in my eyes and that's only two problems I've had with him
not even taking into account his liberal policies in modern day politics!

Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2009, 06:18:58 PM
Tyrone's Own I live in Ireland, remember that country.

I never heard of Tony Snow and have little interest in US right versus uber-right bilateral politics (to think you they call it left and right  ::))

Kennedy gets an RIP from me for lots of reasons but the biggest is probably the ability to rise above tiny minds.

Asking me anything about what happened that famous night is as pointless as you pontificating about it.

That's too bad, would have liked your take on some of my points.
Of course you can't help yourself with a few subtle insults thrown in
as you quietly close the door behind you...ah well

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 29, 2009, 06:59:56 PM

Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2009, 06:18:58 PM
Tyrone's Own I live in Ireland, remember that country.

I never heard of Tony Snow and have little interest in US right versus uber-right bilateral politics (to think you they call it left and right  ::))

Kennedy gets an RIP from me for lots of reasons but the biggest is probably the ability to rise above tiny minds.

Asking me anything about what happened that famous night is as pointless as you pontificating about it.

That's too bad, would have liked your take on some of my points.
Of course you can't help yourself with a few subtle insults thrown in
as you quietly close the door behind you...ah well

You started the insults with your blanket attack on all southerners.

Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2009, 07:05:33 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 29, 2009, 06:59:56 PM

Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2009, 06:18:58 PM
Tyrone's Own I live in Ireland, remember that country.

I never heard of Tony Snow and have little interest in US right versus uber-right bilateral politics (to think you they call it left and right  ::))

Kennedy gets an RIP from me for lots of reasons but the biggest is probably the ability to rise above tiny minds.

Asking me anything about what happened that famous night is as pointless as you pontificating about it.

That's too bad, would have liked your take on some of my points.
Of course you can't help yourself with a few subtle insults thrown in
as you quietly close the door behind you...ah well

You started the insults with your blanket attack on all southerners.

To which I explained my reasoning...something you have yet to do this afternoon

P.S just  to correct you on yet another gross exaggeration to suit you argument, Below is what I actually wrote

QuoteAh the irony here with some of our southern counterparts shining light on the great mans efforts to bring about peace in the North....when truth be told, most of ye couldn't care less if we broke off in to the north Atlantic! but hey don't let the truth get in the way of an opportunity to sing the praises of a modern day hero to most here.

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 29, 2009, 07:12:02 PM

Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2009, 07:05:33 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 29, 2009, 06:59:56 PM

Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2009, 06:18:58 PM
Tyrone's Own I live in Ireland, remember that country.

I never heard of Tony Snow and have little interest in US right versus uber-right bilateral politics (to think you they call it left and right  ::))

Kennedy gets an RIP from me for lots of reasons but the biggest is probably the ability to rise above tiny minds.

Asking me anything about what happened that famous night is as pointless as you pontificating about it.

That's too bad, would have liked your take on some of my points.
Of course you can't help yourself with a few subtle insults thrown in
as you quietly close the door behind you...ah well

You started the insults with your blanket attack on all southerners.

To which I explained my reasoning...something you have yet to do this afternoon

P.S just  to correct you on yet another gross exaggeration to suit you argument, Below is what I actually wrote

QuoteAh the irony here with some of our southern counterparts shining light on the great mans efforts to bring about peace in the North....when truth be told, most of ye couldn't care less if we broke off in to the north Atlantic! but hey don't let the truth get in the way of an opportunity to sing the praises of a modern day hero to most here.

Still a lie.

QuoteStill a lie.

:D
In your opinion right? clearly something I  don't seem to be entitled to ::)
FFS give it up Muppet...your making a right Bollix out of yourself at this point. :-[

Very touching send off today. Read a great article last night about him. The fall and rise of Ted Kennedy in the Indo.

Ok he had personal shortcomings but he led from the front and was as a champion of those less fortunate. Here it is :


Hero for our time: The fall and rise of Ted Kennedy
David Usborne reflects on a life of tragedy and redemption











Friday August 28 2009
If you were a political reporter in Washington in the late summer of 1994, you'd have found yourself travelling with surprising frequency to Massachusetts. The interest in a certain state-wide election was morbid in a way. After three decades in the US Senate, Ted Kennedy was locked in battle with a clean-cut former businessman, Mitt Romney. And it looked as if he might lose.

I still recall watching Kennedy on the trail. He walked with a shuffle and his cheeks looked like sponges filled with booze. He had the air of a man struggling, who had had enough -- of the burdens of his family name, of the expectations placed on him, and of the years of scandal, followed by tragedy, followed by more scandal.

JFK's widow, Jackie Kennedy Onassis, had died earlier that year. All that seemed to remain of the so-called Camelot, the quasi-royal clan spawned by Joseph and Rose Kennedy in Boston, was Teddy; and his flaws seemed to be catching up with him. He was tainted and exhausted. Nationally, his approval rating was a sad 22pc.

Of course, that all seems daft now, even disrespectful of a man who actually had so much more ahead of him -- not least a fantastically successful second marriage, then in its infancy, to a Boston lawyer, Victoria Reggie. Maybe we were overestimating Romney, who was as physically lithe and presentable as Kennedy was halting and derelict. Teddy found his roar, and Romney, who lost by 17 points, was exposed as flimsy.

The pundits had forgotten that favourite of all the Kennedy lines, lifted from a Tennyson poem and doubtless first impressed on his sons by old Joe in Hyannis, the Cape Cod town that remained Teddy's home until the end: "To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." And then there is that old adage about suffering and strength. Teddy was

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 28, 2009, 06:11:39 PM

Ah the irony here with some of our southern counterparts shining light on the great mans efforts to bring about peace in the North....when truth be told, most of ye couldn't care less if we broke off in to the north Atlantic! but hey don't let the truth get in the way of an opportunity to sing the praises of a modern day hero to most here.

to, i find that insulting. . .

your point about tony snow is completely irrelevant.

as someone whose irish/american (born in ny and spent about 15 years in the states) ted kennedy was revered in my family and in most of the irish/american community. what he did at chappaquiddick was very wrong but the rest of his life he devoted to helping the needy in the states (healthcare for all anyone?/school buses anyone? etc etc) and ireland whenever ireland came calling. just because he did fit in with your agenda doesn't mean he didn't make a great contribution to the states and ireland and we cant run an RIP thread for him. ireland lost a great voice last week

Where's the rest of the article orangeman?

Watched most of the funeral today as well, tributes from his son's very moving. 

Just hard to imagine how the man coped with so much personal tragedy and managed to keep going. 

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 29, 2009, 08:13:48 PM

QuoteStill a lie.

:D
In your opinion right? clearly something I  don't seem to be entitled to ::)
FFS give it up Muppet...your making a right Bollix out of yourself at this point. :-[

In your opinion right?

The only one agreeing with you is Eastern Pride. He hasn't the wit to realise you insulted him.

Hero for our time: The fall and rise of Ted Kennedy


David Usborne reflects on a life of tragedy and redemption



Friday August 28 2009

If you were a political reporter in Washington in the late summer of 1994, you'd have found yourself travelling with surprising frequency to Massachusetts. The interest in a certain state-wide election was morbid in a way. After three decades in the US Senate, Ted Kennedy was locked in battle with a clean-cut former businessman, Mitt Romney. And it looked as if he might lose.

I still recall watching Kennedy on the trail. He walked with a shuffle and his cheeks looked like sponges filled with booze. He had the air of a man struggling, who had had enough -- of the burdens of his family name, of the expectations placed on him, and of the years of scandal, followed by tragedy, followed by more scandal.

JFK's widow, Jackie Kennedy Onassis, had died earlier that year. All that seemed to remain of the so-called Camelot, the quasi-royal clan spawned by Joseph and Rose Kennedy in Boston, was Teddy; and his flaws seemed to be catching up with him. He was tainted and exhausted. Nationally, his approval rating was a sad 22pc.

Of course, that all seems daft now, even disrespectful of a man who actually had so much more ahead of him -- not least a fantastically successful second marriage, then in its infancy, to a Boston lawyer, Victoria Reggie. Maybe we were overestimating Romney, who was as physically lithe and presentable as Kennedy was halting and derelict. Teddy found his roar, and Romney, who lost by 17 points, was exposed as flimsy.

The pundits had forgotten that favourite of all the Kennedy lines, lifted from a Tennyson poem and doubtless first impressed on his sons by old Joe in Hyannis, the Cape Cod town that remained Teddy's home until the end: "To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." And then there is that old adage about suffering and strength. Teddy was the embodiment of it. Edward Moore Kennedy was also an archetypal silver screen hero, buffeted equally by tragic happenstance beyond his control and by the shortcomings of his own character, who, finally, makes good. Except that his story was not fiction.

The days to come will be filled with tributes and, more discreetly, memories of the senator's less glorious moments. "Ted Kennedy always baffled me," a former 'Time' correspondent and biographer, Lance Morrow, noted. "He was so astonishingly productive as a senator, yet his private life was extremely messy. When it came to Kennedy's character, you'd feel whipsawed judging it."

Three years before that race against Romney, the senator spoke himself of the potholes of his life in a speech at the John F Kennedy School of Government. He had been tainted once more by a tipsy night out in Florida with a young nephew, William Kennedy Smith, who ended up being tried (and acquitted) for attempted rape. "I recognise my own shortcomings -- the faults in the conduct of my private life," he said. "I realise that I alone am responsible for them, and I am the one who must confront them."

No Kennedy story is complete without reference to Joe, grandson of Irish immigrants and one-time ambassador to London, recalled in 1941 for harbouring Nazi sympathies. With Rose, he had nine children, and his desire to see one of them confound the snobs and critics by assuming high political office -- if possible the presidency -- became his mission. "The big thing we learnt from Daddy," Eunice Kennedy Shriver, Teddy's elder sister (who died earlier this month), once said, "was win. Don't come in second or third -- that doesn't count -- but win, win, win."

Rosemary Kennedy, born in 1918, was a depressive mental patient who was hidden away. In 1941, Joe subjected her to a lobotomy. Though she lived until 2005, she remained incapacitated for the rest of her life. Teddy was just 12 years old when Joe Jr, the son on whom the old man had pinned all his hopes, was killed test-piloting a B-24 Liberator in England. It was 1944, and the so-called Curse of Camelot was beginning to show itself. The responsibility for realising his father's dreams shifted to the second son, John F Kennedy. The year after JFK was inaugurated, Teddy ran to occupy the US Senate seat he had vacated. His opponent, Eddie McCormack, said Kennedy's viability as a candidate was purely on account of his name. Years later, at McCormack's funeral, Kennedy confessed that the comment had been right. But Kennedy prevailed and, until yesterday, remained in the US Senate.

Once in the Senate, Teddy was heard to complain that the influence he thought he would have in his brother's White House had not materialised. Yet, in time, he had much more serious challenges to overcome -- and family funerals to attend. First there was Jack's, in 1963, and then Robert Kennedy, slain in California in 1968 as he made his bid to reignite the Kennedy flame in the White House. When word came that Bobby had been shot, it fell to Ted to go to Hyannis to tell his father.

Biographers have described Ted as living thenceforth with the feeling he had a target painted on his back. If a door unexpectedly opened in a committee room, his eyes would dart to watch for possible danger.

In 1972 and 1976, he resisted calls to run for the White House, citing safety concerns. Most commentators saw a different reason: Chappaquiddick. The night in 1969 when he drove off a bridge connecting Chappaquiddick to Martha's Vineyard -- causing the death by drowning of his young passenger, Mary Joe Kopechne -- became a national scandal.

But Kennedy remained in the Senate. And he was never able to shake the responsibility of the surviving patriarch of Camelot. He was a surrogate father to the children of JFK and Bobby. He attended every family wedding, anniversary, birthday and funeral while his own personal life hit the reefs again and again. One son, Teddy Jr, was diagnosed with bone cancer and had a leg amputated, while another, Patrick, was a cocaine addict before he recovered and was elected to Congress. His 1958 marriage to Joan Kennedy was for years in slow collapse, ending in divorce in 1982.

As he built his political legacy of liberal legislation, championing everything from women's rights to abortion, gun control, minimum wage levels and education, he became a lightning rod for conservative America. In his eulogy to Jackie in 1994 he spoke of "an unbearable sorrow endured in the glare of a million lights". He might have said the same at the funeral of JFK Jr after his plane crash in 1999 -- or indeed of his own life.

The greatest tribute to Kennedy may be that from those lows of the early 1990s, he reasserted himself more powerfully than ever, drafting new laws to repel the tide of conservatism and helping launch a young African-American to the presidency. Above all, in his last years he achieved personal peace and happiness as well.

Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2009, 08:58:55 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 29, 2009, 08:13:48 PM

QuoteStill a lie.

:D
In your opinion right? clearly something I  don't seem to be entitled to ::)
FFS give it up Muppet...your making a right Bollix out of yourself at this point. :-[

In your opinion right?

The only one agreeing with you is Eastern Pride. He hasn't the wit to realise you insulted him.

Oh that's right cause it goes without saying he's most likely not as intelligent as you ::)
Seriously, either answer my questions and back your shite up or quit while you can and
try to leave with some shred of credibility intact...Lord knows you do have your little gang of
cheerleaders on here that may be disheartened by reading this :'(
It really is OK to be wrong about something at some point in your life...try it some time!

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 30, 2009, 12:40:18 AM

Quote from: muppet on August 29, 2009, 08:58:55 PM

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 29, 2009, 08:13:48 PM

QuoteStill a lie.

:D
In your opinion right? clearly something I  don't seem to be entitled to ::)
FFS give it up Muppet...your making a right Bollix out of yourself at this point. :-[

In your opinion right?

The only one agreeing with you is Eastern Pride. He hasn't the wit to realise you insulted him.

Oh that's right cause it goes without saying he's most likely not as intelligent as you ::)
Seriously, either answer my questions and back your shite up or quit while you can and
try to leave with some shred of credibility intact...Lord knows you do have your little gang of
cheerleaders on here that may be disheartened by reading this :'(
It really is OK to be wrong about something at some point in your life...try it some time!

You ask questions about Fox TV presenters. Why would I want to even know who they are? And what did I not back up? You are the one suggesting there is more to the Mary Joe accident, let's have the facts then genius. I mentioned the conviction, that is a fact. Where are your facts on the matter?

There is life outside the States, you might even remember this country.

The Kennedys mean a lot to some people here, not that that would stop you dancing on their graves.

Nothing like a wee bit of vitriol on a Sunday morning, eh lads ;)

Ach na Aerlik, just Muppet found wanting again...sure you know the craic yourself 8)

QuoteYou ask questions about Fox TV presenters. Why would I want to even know who they are? And what did I not back up? You are the one suggesting there is more to the Mary Joe accident, let's have the facts then genius. I mentioned the conviction, that is a fact. Where are your facts on the matter?

There is life outside the States, you might even remember this country.

The Kennedys mean a lot to some people here, not that that would stop you dancing on their graves.

When consulting Wikipedia on Tony Snow, had you read much past the first line you'd have noticed he was Bush's
Press secretary which was enough to rile the left with their despicable tasteless insults to a dying man... yes they couldn't even wait til the
man passed on....and yet you have the audacity to slate me for dancing on a man's grave

I called you on the Cheney jibe with Clinton's own war crimes but you didn't deem that question pertinent to your argument and so
moved right along ::)

Back to the Conviction, running you car off the road into a tree and leaving it there for some reason like I don't know say a few
drinks on board is what I would consider leaving the scene of a crash, not knowingly leaving a woman to die in a car up side down in water FFS
This conviction was an insult to her family and a cop out on the judges part and for reasons non other than the fact he was a Kennedy...
..how any one could argue that is beyond me!

Quote
There is life outside the States,

Indeed there is and might I suggest you focus on things around home that you might actually know something about!

QuoteThe Kennedys mean a lot to some people here,

No doubt, I have no problem with that and like me they're entitled to their opinions.

Lets not forget you initially targeted me here...seems to me that in true Muppet fashion you figured you'd step in to the ring
throw a few rabbit punches and quickly put me in my place with your intellectual brilliance.....didn't happen Muppet now did it ;)

Quote from: muppet on August 27, 2009, 11:24:26 AM

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 27, 2009, 03:57:28 AM
Agreed..... and then to say that that's the reason he never made president  :o
how about a reason why he never done 20 years like you or me never mind
continue on as a State Sen for as long as he did...give me a break!
Oh but that's right he did apologize  ::)

He was tried and convicted of leaving the scene of an accident. Unless you have evidence that he intended to kill her then he didn't 'get away with it'. In many interviews he stated that he thought of that event every day of his life.

Any chance of Cheney ever seeing a trial?

On the contrary you introduced the sarcasm and derogatory comments to the thread with this post.

Previous posters who had issues with Ted Kennedy posted those points of view but maintained the respect that usually goes with some one held in high esteem by others.

My point on the conviction is simple. He was tried and found guilty which was incredibly damaging to his career at the time. He didn't 'get away with it' as has been suggested on this thread. He may have got away with something else but no one has provided any evidence so until you do it is just another conspiracy theory. It must also be considered that your comment about 'I don't know say a few beers on board' should be judged in the context of the era and not on today's standards. Certainly in Ireland in those days you would be under suspicion if you didn't have a few beers on board while driving

You brought up Tony Snow. I don't know who he is and don't care.

You will notice this is an Irish Forum and this is an Irish thread paying tribute to a man who did a lot for Ireland. No amount of Fox News propaganda from you is likely to change a single opinion here.

As for Clinton's war crimes, I did answer by comparing them with Cheney's while you dodged the question and still haven't answered the original question as usual. But one rule for you and one rule for everyone else eh? That philosophy sounds familiar, Guantanamo, rendition flights, WMDs? Your answer to those questions always seems to be Clinton doesn't it?

And congratulations by the way. It must be great judging yourself the winner of imaginary contests all the time.

Ever heard the saying "When you find yourself in a hole stop digging" Muppet :-X
No amount of twisting and turning can turn this around for you at this point.
Your welcome to my home Phone number if you like to save yourself any further embarrassment here :-[

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 30, 2009, 07:00:17 PM
Ever heard the saying "When you find yourself in a hole stop digging" Muppet :-X
No amount of twisting and turning can turn this around for you at this point.
Your welcome to my home Phone number if you like to save yourself any further embarrassment here :-[

What are you talking about?

Not like a Republican to declare victory early is it?

(http://roadkillrefugee.files.wordpress.com/2007/11/mission-accomplished.png)

How does it go...."Give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves".
Don't mind me, the floors yours :D

Quote from: Tyrones own on August 30, 2009, 07:12:48 PM
How does it go...."Give them enough rope and they'll hang themselves".
Don't mind me, the floors yours :D

I thought you were better than that.

Yes I know... you've been a bit slow in the up take but sure now you know it  :P