Question for Armagh Folk

[thewobbler]

Before going on, please desist from turning this into a name calling thread or a "we're still better you than you" thread.


A serious question for Armagh diehards. Will any of you accept that your team is in a period of transition, and that this is not Peter McDonnell's fault? And if you'll accept that, then would you also accept that this is only natural for a county of your size and resources?


For me, once the crux of Armagh's team of the 2000s was formed by the two Brians then refined by Big Joe, changes to the team were gradual, and normally as the result of better talent coming through, rather than holes needing to be filled. 11 or more guys knew what position they'd be playing in Championship time come the end of February.

McDonnell on the other hand is faced with building a team more or less from scratch. And if truth be told, with a group of players that looks distinctly average in comparison to what's just gone by.

I'd suggest that the negative, defensive tactics he is employing are the result of a simple realisation that his team, for now anyway, would get slaughtered if they took the bigger teams on in a scoring contest. The creativity isn't there, the power isn't there and the leadership isn't there.

Or because you fellas have been spoiled in recent years, is this too much of a realisation to take.


By the way, I'd love a negative manager to come on board at Down for a few seasons, especially when a team is starting out. If a manager can impose a defensive will upon all his players, his successors have a much easier job to do.

[qub la la la]

this is bull. the problem isnt transition etc. every armagh fan realises this and could see that an all ireland or even an uslter for that matter would likely be out of armagh's reach this year and possibly next year. the problem is that totally inept performance that was put on show on saturday evening. there was no hunger, desire or will to win as a group. a few players did try but a few just seemed to not care.

Armagh at the minute seem to be carrying a few players. If a team is in transition it should be about building towards a time where it may challenge at the top table again for honours. To produce a line out like that on saturday evening and a performance like that is not building for the future, its nothing short of abysmal.

[ardmhachaabu]

Armagh have the players to contend for major honours.  I am absolutely convinced of that.  I think Armagh's problems currently are down to decisions made on the line. 

PMcD promised much needed change, he hasn't delivered.

[qub la la la]

Armagh have the players to contend for major honours.  I am absolutely convinced of that.  I think Armagh's problems currently are down to decisions made on the line. 

PMcD promised much needed change, he hasn't delivered.

yea totally agree. to be honest when he was appointed i thought he would be the man for the job based on the u21 success he had achieved. but he hasnt delivered at all. though apparently its certain players pulling the strings and not him which actually makes a lot of sense looking at the game yesterday and the team selection.

[ardmhachaabu]

Armagh have the players to contend for major honours.  I am absolutely convinced of that.  I think Armagh's problems currently are down to decisions made on the line. 

PMcD promised much needed change, he hasn't delivered.

yea totally agree. to be honest when he was appointed i thought he would be the man for the job based on the u21 success he had achieved. but he hasnt delivered at all. though apparently its certain players pulling the strings and not him which actually makes a lot of sense looking at the game yesterday and the team selection.

I don't want to slate the man, he did well by the u21 team.  Like yourself I was hoping that he could continue that with the seniors.  If he is to continue as manager then the CB will need to get certain guarantees from him i.e. he lives up to what he says and creates an attacking team rather than one which relies on past tactics.

Let's face it.

Armagh don't have the players these days to use the tactics they did in past years.  It may be a long time before the same physicality exists in another Armagh team.

[JMohan]

His Sunday Game interview there looked very much as he was certainly going

[Trevor Hill]

Before going on, please desist from turning this into a name calling thread or a "we're still better you than you" thread.


A serious question for Armagh diehards. Will any of you accept that your team is in a period of transition, and that this is not Peter McDonnell's fault? And if you'll accept that, then would you also accept that this is only natural for a county of your size and resources?


For me, once the crux of Armagh's team of the 2000s was formed by the two Brians then refined by Big Joe, changes to the team were gradual, and normally as the result of better talent coming through, rather than holes needing to be filled. 11 or more guys knew what position they'd be playing in Championship time come the end of February.

McDonnell on the other hand is faced with building a team more or less from scratch. And if truth be told, with a group of players that looks distinctly average in comparison to what's just gone by.

I'd suggest that the negative, defensive tactics he is employing are the result of a simple realisation that his team, for now anyway, would get slaughtered if they took the bigger teams on in a scoring contest. The creativity isn't there, the power isn't there and the leadership isn't there.

Or because you fellas have been spoiled in recent years, is this too much of a realisation to take.


By the way, I'd love a negative manager to come on board at Down for a few seasons, especially when a team is starting out. If a manager can impose a defensive will upon all his players, his successors have a much easier job to do.

Luckily we have a Ballyholland to english dictionary in our house, what thewobbler really means is are Armagh shite and can Peter McDonnell take them back to their rightful place in division 4.

[TacadoirArdMhacha]

Before going on, please desist from turning this into a name calling thread or a "we're still better you than you" thread.


A serious question for Armagh diehards. Will any of you accept that your team is in a period of transition, and that this is not Peter McDonnell's fault? And if you'll accept that, then would you also accept that this is only natural for a county of your size and resources?


For me, once the crux of Armagh's team of the 2000s was formed by the two Brians then refined by Big Joe, changes to the team were gradual, and normally as the result of better talent coming through, rather than holes needing to be filled. 11 or more guys knew what position they'd be playing in Championship time come the end of February.

McDonnell on the other hand is faced with building a team more or less from scratch. And if truth be told, with a group of players that looks distinctly average in comparison to what's just gone by.

I'd suggest that the negative, defensive tactics he is employing are the result of a simple realisation that his team, for now anyway, would get slaughtered if they took the bigger teams on in a scoring contest. The creativity isn't there, the power isn't there and the leadership isn't there.

Or because you fellas have been spoiled in recent years, is this too much of a realisation to take.


By the way, I'd love a negative manager to come on board at Down for a few seasons, especially when a team is starting out. If a manager can impose a defensive will upon all his players, his successors have a much easier job to do.

We are still better than youse, ya Down bollux.

On the points you raise, I accept 100% that we are not the side we were in the first half of this decade, and this is not a situation which is likely to change in the near future. The players we have are generally good talented players but they just aren't of the same calibre as the McGeeneys, McGranes, Marsdens and McConvilles.

What I don't agree with is that yesterday was a fair reflection of the level we are currently at. I don't believe that the system employed played properly to our strengths and I don't believe that the correct decisions were made in terms of the starting XV or the substitutions. I think we do have a scoring threat (one of the best 2 or 3 full forwards in Ireland for one) but we aren't supplying the ball to them enough. The new prospects haven't really been given a chance to impose themselves on the team, for example Ryan Henderson has an excellent McKenna Cup, a superb league debut, then a couple of iffy performances and he's barely heard of again. I also believe that we have defenders good enough as individuals that we can have faith in to deal with the opposition on their own merits without robbing our forwards of any chance of a decent supply to cover for imagined defensive frailties.

I accept that Peter McDonnell could hardly have picked a worse time to take over a side - an aging team in need for restructuring, combined with an expectancy amongst the supporters which was never likely to be satisfied. That's not to say that we didn't appreciate the Ulster title last year; most of us did and I think Peter did very well to get an Ulster title out of that team, no matter who we had to play. But after all that's gone before the decade, Ulster titles just don't set the heart racing at the minute. No doubt they will again in the future but that's simply the reality.

Basically I just don't accept that what happened last night is a true reflection of where Armagh football is, or where it should be. We have good players coming through; Donaghy, Lavery, Vernon, Forker, Toner, Paul Kernan, Kevin O'Rourke etc all have huge potential. Ciaran McKeever is as good a defender as any in Ulster, Clarke is still a top class footballer and we have what looks like a hell of an minor side, as well as a decent u21 team this year. I'm not asking for All Irelands in the next 2 years but I do expect better,  no matter who the manager is.

[thebandit]

Whether McDonnell is the right man? I dont know..... it was always going to be a poisoned chalice. I think he is too influenced by those around him though.

One thing that I thought was plain wrong was the behaviour of some Armagh fans towards the end - shouting bad manners at McDonnell. It was also obvious (where I was sitting anyway) that the seemed to be Mid/North Armagh accents doing the shouting. No mater how the man is doing, he deserves more respect than that.

[stew]

Whether McDonnell is the right man? I dont know..... it was always going to be a poisoned chalice. I think he is too influenced by those around him though.

One thing that I thought was plain wrong was the behaviour of some Armagh fans towards the end - shouting bad manners at McDonnell. It was also obvious (where I was sitting anyway) that the seemed to be Mid/North Armagh accents doing the shouting. No mater how the man is doing, he deserves more respect than that.

Correct. The last thing he needed was to listen to the slabbers that turned on their own manager, obviosuly we are all upset at what transpired but to me there should be no room for taking it out on the manager when the game was about to end.
That was as bad a performance as i have ever seen from an Armagh team and i have seen more than my fair share, I think he should go as he done nothing to change from our style of play in the past, we have the players to play open, attractive football and what we got was negative dirge.

[orangeman]

His Sunday Game interview there looked very much as he was certainly going

Definitely looks on his way out.


5 minutes after getting knocked out of the c'ship he says a break is a good thing ? WTF

[Rufus T Firefly]

Wobbller's question is a good one, although few in the County are considering it in the rush to get the lynch mob gathered.

I think it is universally agreed that the team is indeed in transition - nearly all of the 1999 - 2002 team has gone and I would suggest after last night that that could be reduced even further to just Ronan Clarke, come the McKenna Cup next year. Our days of competing at the top are now gone. That is reality. What we have though are some very good individual footballers and a lot of youngsters coming through who have tasted success at underage level. However many of PMcD's critics seem to assume that this mixture guarantees success, and that is not the case - there is plenty of evidence around Ulster over the years to prove that is not the case.

That said, there still has to be an asessment of how the team has performed under PMcD and it is in this regard that the doubts creep in. Armagh won an Ulster title last year that was gifted on a plate - and even then we nearly dropped the plate! I still reckon that we were around fourth best in Ulster last year, despite taking the title. To win it without playing Derry, Tyrone, Monaghan or Donegal absolutely defied belief. We then got what was considered an excellent draw in the last eight and produced a poverty stricken performance. The memory for me that day was of defenders being brought on in the dying minutes when we were chasing the game. In contrast, we played Wexford at the unveiling of Clann Eireann's new stand in May 2008, with a second string, and beat them comfortably. We did much the same to them in the league at the start of the year.

Your point about being negative to combat better teams just doesn't hold up when considered against opposition such as Fermanagh and Wexford. Although we are no world beaters, I feel we have the personnel to beat both those opponents without recourse to a defensive strategy. To be honest, the tactics have been at times mystifying and appear driven by fear of defeat. Furthermore, stories of dressing room discontent and player power have been rife and I would have been concerned by the lack of urgency shown at vital times last night.

When considering this issue, I'm always reminded of the age old adage, that 'players win games; managers lose them'. I find myself in a bit of a quandry on the issue to be honest. The players are not there to compete at the top, and they have to take their share of responsibility for performances on the pitch. I'm not sure if a new manager would sort out our problems. That said, I have been disappointed with the tenure to date. It is a tight enough call.

[mackers]

Before going on, please desist from turning this into a name calling thread or a "we're still better you than you" thread.


A serious question for Armagh diehards. Will any of you accept that your team is in a period of transition, and that this is not Peter McDonnell's fault? And if you'll accept that, then would you also accept that this is only natural for a county of your size and resources?


For me, once the crux of Armagh's team of the 2000s was formed by the two Brians then refined by Big Joe, changes to the team were gradual, and normally as the result of better talent coming through, rather than holes needing to be filled. 11 or more guys knew what position they'd be playing in Championship time come the end of February.

McDonnell on the other hand is faced with building a team more or less from scratch. And if truth be told, with a group of players that looks distinctly average in comparison to what's just gone by.

I'd suggest that the negative, defensive tactics he is employing are the result of a simple realisation that his team, for now anyway, would get slaughtered if they took the bigger teams on in a scoring contest. The creativity isn't there, the power isn't there and the leadership isn't there.

Or because you fellas have been spoiled in recent years, is this too much of a realisation to take.


By the way, I'd love a negative manager to come on board at Down for a few seasons, especially when a team is starting out. If a manager can impose a defensive will upon all his players, his successors have a much easier job to do.

We are still better than youse, ya Down bollux.

On the points you raise, I accept 100% that we are not the side we were in the first half of this decade, and this is not a situation which is likely to change in the near future. The players we have are generally good talented players but they just aren't of the same calibre as the McGeeneys, McGranes, Marsdens and McConvilles.

What I don't agree with is that yesterday was a fair reflection of the level we are currently at. I don't believe that the system employed played properly to our strengths and I don't believe that the correct decisions were made in terms of the starting XV or the substitutions. I think we do have a scoring threat (one of the best 2 or 3 full forwards in Ireland for one) but we aren't supplying the ball to them enough. The new prospects haven't really been given a chance to impose themselves on the team, for example Ryan Henderson has an excellent McKenna Cup, a superb league debut, then a couple of iffy performances and he's barely heard of again. I also believe that we have defenders good enough as individuals that we can have faith in to deal with the opposition on their own merits without robbing our forwards of any chance of a decent supply to cover for imagined defensive frailties.
I accept that Peter McDonnell could hardly have picked a worse time to take over a side - an aging team in need for restructuring, combined with an expectancy amongst the supporters which was never likely to be satisfied. That's not to say that we didn't appreciate the Ulster title last year; most of us did and I think Peter did very well to get an Ulster title out of that team, no matter who we had to play. But after all that's gone before the decade, Ulster titles just don't set the heart racing at the minute. No doubt they will again in the future but that's simply the reality.

Basically I just don't accept that what happened last night is a true reflection of where Armagh football is, or where it should be. We have good players coming through; Donaghy, Lavery, Vernon, Forker, Toner, Paul Kernan, Kevin O'Rourke etc all have huge potential. Ciaran McKeever is as good a defender as any in Ulster, Clarke is still a top class footballer and we have what looks like a hell of an minor side, as well as a decent u21 team this year. I'm not asking for All Irelands in the next 2 years but I do expect better,  no matter who the manager is.

In a f**king nutshell, TAM, why do we not trust defenders of the calibre of Donaghy, McKeever, A Mallon to do their job without P Duffy and MOR covering them and therefore seriously hampering our attack. Why not let Forker, K O'Rourke and Henderson go and support the men that need it, Vernon being subbed by Brendan Donaghy last year against Wexford jumps out too? Peter McDonnell has now been in charge of Armagh in two of the most negative displays by an Armagh team in my memory which along with a few other posters goes back to the late 70s.
It's fairly sad that the Tyrone and Down posters fell the need to gloat the same as they did after the Wexford game last year, if they bothered to read any of the Armagh supporters posts through the year the majority of posts were along the same lines, we're not saying that the manager has to go because Sam isn't going to be coming back in September, for me there is NO sign of forward progress and I feel there is a good degree of talent in this new team which is not being used properly.

[Pangurban]

Every County has its Day, good teams come and go, Armaghs day will come again    but it may be a long way down the Road. It has to be said that the good team they  had over the past decade, were under-achievers in that they failed to deliver a second AI. Good teams win one, great teams win two

[cadhlancian]

Armagh have the players to contend for major honours.  I am absolutely convinced of that.  I think Armagh's problems currently are down to decisions made on the line. 

PMcD promised much needed change, he hasn't delivered.

Herein lies the problem..YOU DON"Thave the players, and I think that everyone else realises that, simply not good enough at the top level